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The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved - Religion - Nairaland

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The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 9:50am On Aug 12
THE PROBLEM OF "WHO IS GOD ?"



John1:1 declare:" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Here we see that THE WORD = GOD

John 1:14 says :"The Word became flesh, and made His dwelling among us." Here we see again that JESUS = THE WORD.

Simple logic declares that if A=B and B=C then A=C. Therefore, since JESUS = THE WORD and THE WORD = GOD, then JESUS = GOD . This is the commonest biblical evidence used by Trinitarian Christians to prove that Jesus is God just like his Father.


Since we have seen how John 1:1,14 established that Jesus is God, let us now investigate whether the remaining part of the Bible support this claim or not;


1. Jesus was praying to the Father and he said;
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent (John 17:3)" .

If Jesus himself was referring to another person (i:e the Father) as the "only true God" , then how could Jesus be God ? If Jesus did not use the word "only", then hopefully the Christians might still want to argue that Jesus is also another true God just like his Father. However, the words "only true God" used by Jesus in reference to the Father alone implies that apart from the Father, any other person is not a true God.


2. Also Mark 10:17-18 says as follows ; "Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”.


If Jesus is God, why did he reject being called “good” and then submit that all goodness belongs only to God?



3. Furthermore, in John 14:1, Jesus said “let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me”.

Remember Jesus did NOT say: "you believe in Father, believe also in me". But he said : "you believe in God, believe also in me”.

Therefore, if Jesus is God, why did he clearly distinguish himself from God?

Similar case occur in Luke 6:12 which read as follows ; "He (Jesus) went out to the mountain side to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God" .

If Jesus is God and God is one, then the verse should read ; " Jesus continued all night in prayer to the FATHER".
Of course, if Father was used in place of God, the verse will still retain its original meaning and doctrine of Trinity will remain undisturbed.

But by saying Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD, the Bible has clearly distinguished Jesus from God.


4. Again, in Matthew 24:36, Jesus said; “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but ONLY THE FATHER”.

If Jesus is God, why did he confess his lack of knowledge about the Day of Judgment and then submit that the knowledge of that day belongs only to the Father? Can God be lacking anything as regard to knowledge?


5. Lastly, in John 20:17, Jesus was reported to have said; "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

If Jesus is God Almighty, then which God was he referring to when he said ; "my God and your God"? Can God Almighty have another God?


Of course, if Jesus was God in heaven before his coming to the earth, then he has to retain his divine nature on the surface of the earth because the nature of God is unchangeable (Malachi 3:6). Therefore, arguing that the reason why Jesus said " my God and your God" is because he was still a human being does not make any sense.

In fact, according to the theory of hypo-static union, Jesus was both God and man on the surface of the earth. Hence, if truly Jesus was God during his stay on the earth, then he must not have another God. But John 20:17 clearly says Jesus have God. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God because it is totally unreasonable for one God to have another God.



As you can see, there is no way we can reconcile John 1:1,14 (which teaches that Jesus is God ) with other verses of the Bible that dispute this claim.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 9:52am On Aug 12
THE PROBLEM OF "WHO IS THE CREATOR ?"



Unlike the Trinitarians, the Jehovah witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. However, like other Christian denominations, they also believe that God created everything THROUGH Jesus Christ . They believe that God did not create anything EXCEPT Jesus (the only begotten son : John 3:16) . That is to say: Jehovah created Jesus, and then, acting on the instruction of Jehovah, Jesus created all other things including the heavens and the earth. So according to their claim, Jesus is the immediate Creator of all other things.


That God created everything through Jesus Christ is no where to be found in the Gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke. It is only found in the books written by Paul and John;


"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.( 1st Corinthians 8:6)".


For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH him and for him ( Colossians 1:16).


THROUGH him ALL THINGS WERE MADE ; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)


But is it really true that God assigned the creation of all other things, including the heavens and earth, to Jesus christ ? Let see what God Almighty say about this matter ;


"This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: 'I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF (WHO WAS WITH ME ?) (Isaiah 44:24 KJV, NWT)


"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)".


It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. MY OWN HANDS stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts (Isaiah 45:12)


"For My HAND made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD ( Isaiah 66:2)


As you can see from above, Paul and John proclaimed that God assigned the creation of all other things to Jesus Christ. But God Almighty declare that He created all things ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF, BY HIS OWN HANDS AND NOBODY WAS WITH HIM.


What better words do we want God to use before we can believe that He created the heavens and the earth without the assistance of anybody ?



If a man hires a contractor as his agent to build a house, could the man say that he built the house “ALL ALONE” and "BY HIS OWN HANDS" without lying? So could God Almighty have lied about creating the heavens and the earth by His own hands while He actually used another distinct person as His agent to actually do the creation for Him?

Is it even logically right to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person other than Himself ?
Let consider the following questions;

1. How do we know that God really exist ? Was it not through His act of creation ?

2. Why does God deserve our worship ? Was it not because He is our creator ?

Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation we acknowledged His existence and through it He deserve our worship ?


Honestly, if God really assigned the creation of all things to another person, then "all what that make God to be God" has been given out to that person. Of course, this is impossible because God has declared that He would NEVER give out His glory to another person (Isaiah 48:11, 42:8-9). Yet there is no any God's glory that is greater than the glory of General Creation.


Furthermore, you will agree with me that the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator (Revelation 14:7) . Now if somebody else other than God is our immediate Creator, then that person also deserve our worship. Yet, only God deserve to be worship (Matthew 4:10). This is exactly the reason why God would never assigned the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".


So apart from Isaiah 44:24, 48:13 and others which make us to know that God did not assign the act of general creation to anybody other than Himself, we also logically know that such kind of assignment is not true because it would be equivalent to God's giving out His Glory to another; something He promised never to do.


But despite all this exegesis, the Jehovah witnesses still insist that God created all other things through Jesus Christ and they even cite Proverbs 8:22-30 to buttress their claim.


But if Jesus was really the master worker ( see Proverbs 8:30 NWT) that Jehovah used to create ALL OTHER THINGS, then all the series of commands causing the heavens, the earth, the light, the animals and the plants into existence should be coming directly from JESUS' MOUTH

But unfortunately, this is not so !


See below what happened during the time of creation;


Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24

1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

1:9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.

1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.


As you can see from above; at the beginning, the heavens, the earth, the animals and plants were created by the series of commands coming out from GOD'S MOUTH: NOT FROM JESUS' MOUTH


So how exactly did God employ Jesus as a master worker of creation ?

Some of the JWs answer this question by saying that Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work (Proverbs 8:30 NWT)

But If truly Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work, then who supposed to be refreshed and rested from all his work ? Was it not Jesus ?


But see what the following verses say;

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE (Genesis 2:2-3)"

"It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED and was REFRESHED (Exodus 31:17)".


So why did Jehovah have to REST and REFRESH Himself on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work and Jehovah was only giving the order ?

In conclusion, Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah that gave those series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that need to rest and refresh Himself on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 31:17, 20:11).


This is exactly the confirmation of God's word when God said ALL ALONE , by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS (Isaiah 48:13) did I create the heavens and the earth.


Hence, Proverbs 8:22-30 can only be referring to the wisdom or master plan firstly produced by God before the actual creation of things just like an architect firstly produce a building plan before the actual building of the house. So it was this wisdom or master plan that was personified in this very passage.


Therefore, Paul and John completely got it wrong by asserting that all other things were created through Jesus Christ (1st Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3).

No wonder that Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke did not mention such thing.

Have you now agreed with me that the problem of "who is God ? and who is the Creator ?" are yet to be resolved in the world of Christianity if we accept that Paul and John were truly inspired by God to write all what they have written.


This is a FOUNDATIONAL problem that can never be overlooked. As we all know, any beautiful mansion that is erected on a very weak foundation is bound to collapse sooner or later !
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Emusan(m): 3:58pm On Aug 12
The same confused post all the times despite different school of thought you've been taken through in the past.

Anyway, It's evident that your second post is to expose the lies of JWs that claimed that Jesus isn't God.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 4:54pm On Aug 12
Emusan:
The same confused post all the times despite different school of thought you've been taken through in the past.

Anyway, It's evident that your second post is to expose the lies of JWs that claimed that Jesus isn't God.

All he needed from you now is to prove your claim from the pages of the Bible! NOT blaming others for your failure to explain yourself!

A book containing 1,189 Chapters and 31,200 verses shouldn't be that difficult for you to locate just one single verse to prove your claim! wink
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 5:11pm On Aug 12
Emusan:
The same confused post all the times despite different school of thought you've been taken through in the past

What is confusing you about those verses which prove that Jesus is not God ?

Which school of thought you've taken me through in the past ?

If you are very sure of your self, take your time to nullify all those evidence
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by UceeGod(m): 7:07pm On Aug 12
Abdulgaffar22:


What is confusing you about those verses which prove that Jesus is not God ?

Which school of thought you've taken me through in the past ?

If you are very sure of your self, take your time to nullify all those evidence
All those verses you think contradict Jesus' deity are actually proof of His deity as GOD ALMIGHTY. You only choose to believe what the devil placed on your carnal mind and have refused to humble yourself enough to allow God through His Spirit to awaken your dead spirit so you can properly understand those Bible passages.

Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Emusan(m): 7:18pm On Aug 12
Abdulgaffar22:
What is confusing you about those verses which prove that Jesus is not God ?

Were you not the same person who quoted John 1:1,14 to prove A=B, B=C then C=A?

Which school of thought you've taken me through in the past ?

Only if you can go through your previous posts

If you are very sure of your self, take your time to nullify all those evidence

It has been done many times here, yet you keep repeating it...what should that be called?
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 9:22pm On Aug 12
UceeGod:

All those verses you think contradict Jesus' deity are actually proof of His deity as GOD ALMIGHTY.

Pls explain how they prove Jesus' deity

UceeGod:


You only choose to believe what the devil placed on your carnal mind and have refused to humble yourself enough to allow God through His Spirit to awaken your dead spirit so you can properly understand those Bible passages.

Stop using Holy Spirit as an excuse. If the Holy Spirit did not guide me to believe in Jesus divinity simply because I did not humble myself enough to believe in the entire Bible, what of JWs that believe in the entire Bible ? Why did Holy Spirit fail to guide them to believe in Jesus divinity ?
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 9:29pm On Aug 12
Emusan:


Were you not the same person who quoted John 1:1,14 to prove A=B, B=C then C=A?
This is my conclusion:

As you can see, there is no way we can reconcile John 1:1,14 (which teaches that Jesus is God ) with other verses of the Bible that dispute this claim.

Emusan:



Only if you can go through your previous posts
Assist by quoting a reference


Emusan:



It has been done many times here, yet you keep repeating it...what should that be called?
If it has been done many times, then quickly do copy and paste

1 Like 1 Share

Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Emusan(m): 9:54pm On Aug 12
Abdulgaffar22:
This is my conclusion:

As you can see, there is no way we can reconcile John 1:1,14 (which teaches that Jesus is God ) with other verses of the Bible that dispute this claim.

Other verses dispute indeed.... undecided undecided undecided


Assist by quoting a reference



If it has been done many times, then quickly do copy and paste

You can do that yourself...
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by GodWrites: 10:28pm On Aug 12
Who is God and who is the creator? The moment you let go of your Bible, only then will you be able to see.

2 Likes

Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 6:45am On Aug 13
Emusan:


Other verses dispute indeed.... undecided undecided undecided
Just take any two you like out of those five verses and tell us how they do not dispute Jesus' deity

Emusan:


You can do that yourself...

You are in best position to do it because you are the one that claimed it has been done many times.

It is very easy to lie but very difficult to defend it
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 8:18am On Aug 13
@ Emusan

Here is another one for you;

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all (1st Corinthians 15:27-28)


Who put everything under Christ ? Is it not God ?Then how could Christ be the same God that put everything under him ? Remember, the verse did NOT say; Father put everything under Christ.

Again, Jesus will be made subject to who? God of course. Then how can Jesus be the same God that he would later be made subject to ? Remember that God is one not two.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 8:43am On Aug 13
Abdulgaffar22:


Pls explain how they prove Jesus' deity



Stop using Holy Spirit as an excuse. If the Holy Spirit did not guide me to believe in Jesus divinity simply because I did not humble myself enough to believe in the entire Bible, what of JWs that believe in the entire Bible ? Why did Holy Spirit fail to guide them to believe in Jesus divinity ?

Mr Abdulgaffar,

Please deal with your friends anyhow you deem fit to convince them that Muhammad is God's prophet so that they can accept him and his teachings.
The problem you're having with them has nothing to do with us, i've presented the simplest, easiest and most efficient logic to discover the one and only true religion. But you want to stick to the religion that Arabians are propagating. So preach your religion to them without bringing Jehovah's Witnesses into your arguments.
For your information, all of you are worshipping the same God, a lazy God whose effectiveness can't be felt if observing his worshippers!

Our own JEHOVAH has
¤Theories
¤Practical Applications and
¤Benefits

All of you can SEE the efficiency of our God, as he is able to catch people from different countries, cultures and traditions {Isaiah 2:1-4} bringing us together as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers! John 17:20-23

So deal with your friends as you argue argue and argue for nothing, while our own God is working out {John 5:17} what all eyes can SEE! Matthew 5:14-16 smiley
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by enilove(m): 8:47am On Aug 13
Op , is a Creator not a God ?

According to your Quran is Jesus not a Creator coAllah SWT said:

وَرَسُولًا إِلٰى بَنِىٓ إِسْرٰٓءِيلَ أَنِّى قَدْ جِئْتُكُمْ بِئَايَةٍ مِّنْ رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّىٓ أَخْلُقُ لَكُمْ مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنْفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًۢا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْىِ الْمَوْتٰى بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِى بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذٰلِكَ لَءَايَةً لَّكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُّؤْمِنِينَ
"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 49)

Which prophet , man or science has ever created a living thing with breathe of life from non living things ?
As advanced as people rate science , has it been able to give sight or eyes to the blind ?

Jesus did all these and much more . This makes him God , since he could create a bird from clay and raised the dead which had rotten or decayed.

Op , your problem is lack of spiritual understanding.

Even the old testaments called Jesus a God :

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 KJV
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Finally , to be 'one' with God means to be in the same level with God . Jesus said this severally that he and his Father are ONE. So , stop accusing Paul of the originator of calling Jesus a God.
There is no book of book of the new testament that did not testify to the truth that Jesus is a God .

A lion would always give birth to a lion and not a goat , simple as that.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Emusan(m): 8:53am On Aug 13
You just want to debate by fire by force embarassed embarassed

Abdulgaffar22:
Here is another one for you;

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all (1st Corinthians 15:27-28)


Who put everything under Christ ? Is it not God ?Then how could Christ be the same God that put everything under him ? Remember, the verse did NOT say; Father put everything under Christ.

Again, Jesus will be made subject to who? God of course. Then how can Jesus be the same God that he would later be made subject to ? Remember that God is one not two.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 9:02am On Aug 13
enilove:
Op , is a Creator not a God ?

According to your Quran is Jesus not a Creator coAllah SWT said:

وَرَسُولًا إِلٰى بَنِىٓ إِسْرٰٓءِيلَ أَنِّى قَدْ جِئْتُكُمْ بِئَايَةٍ مِّنْ رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّىٓ أَخْلُقُ لَكُمْ مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنْفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًۢا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْىِ الْمَوْتٰى بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِى بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذٰلِكَ لَءَايَةً لَّكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُّؤْمِنِينَ
"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 49)

Which prophet , man or science has ever created a living thing with breathe of life from non living things ?
As advanced as people rate science , has it been able to give sight or eyes to the blind ?

Jesus did all these and much more . This makes him God , since he could create a bird from clay and raised the dead which had rotten or decayed.

Op , your problem is lack of spiritual understanding.

Even the old testaments called Jesus a God :

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 KJV
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Finally , to be 'one' with God means to be in the same level with God . Jesus said this severally that he and his Father are ONE. So , stop accusing Paul of the originator of calling Jesus a God.
There is no book of book of the new testament that did not testify to the truth that Jesus is a God .
A lion would always give birth to a lion and not a goat , simple as that.

@bolded is a misconception please!

One with God doesn't literally mean in the same level with God

It connotes readiness to align/conform one's thought to harmonise with whatever God decides! This is not easy because God's thoughts are far higher than that of any of his creatures {Isaiah 55:9} that's why Jesus begged his father and God to do something regarding his execution but he was ever ready to accept whatever God decides! Matthew 26:39

For instance in a prayer, Jesus begged God to help his followers so that they too will become one with God and himself just as he and his father{God} are one! John 17:20-23

If your analogy is correct, then all those who truly believe in Jesus will be in the same level with God!

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Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 9:37am On Aug 13
enilove:
Op , is a Creator not a God ?

According to your Quran is Jesus not a Creator coAllah SWT said:

وَرَسُولًا إِلٰى بَنِىٓ إِسْرٰٓءِيلَ أَنِّى قَدْ جِئْتُكُمْ بِئَايَةٍ مِّنْ رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّىٓ أَخْلُقُ لَكُمْ مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنْفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًۢا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْىِ الْمَوْتٰى بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِى بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذٰلِكَ لَءَايَةً لَّكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُّؤْمِنِينَ
"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 49)

Which prophet , man or science has ever created a living thing with breathe of life from non living things ?
As advanced as people rate science , has it been able to give sight or eyes to the blind ?

Jesus did all these and much more . This makes him God , since he could create a bird from clay and raised the dead which had rotten or decayed.

Op , your problem is lack of spiritual understanding.

Even the old testaments called Jesus a God :

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 KJV
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Finally , to be 'one' with God means to be in the same level with God . Jesus said this severally that he and his Father are ONE. So , stop accusing Paul of the originator of calling Jesus a God.
There is no book of book of the new testament that did not testify to the truth that Jesus is a God .

A lion would always give birth to a lion and not a goat , simple as that.




The verse of Qur'an you quoted says ;

" I (Jesus) breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah"

So it is not by power of Jesus. It is by power of God . Jesus himself has confessed; by myself I can do NOTHING (John 5:30). Therefore, that miracle does not make him to be God.


I don't have problem with biblical verses that seem to prove Jesus divinity. The problem I am having with the Bible is inconsistency.
For example, consider Luke 6:12 which says "Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD". If Jesus is God and God is one, then the verse should read ; " Jesus continued all night in prayer to the FATHER". Of course, if Father was used in place of God, the verse will still retain its original meaning and doctrine of Trinity will remain undisturbed.

But by saying Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD, the Bible has clearly distinguished Jesus from God. Pls do you really get my point?
So stop accusing me with lack of spiritual understanding.

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Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 10:21am On Aug 13
Maximus69:


Mr Abdulgaffar,

Please deal with your friends anyhow you deem fit to convince them that Muhammad is God's prophet so that they can accept him and his teachings.
The problem you're having with them has nothing to do with us, i've presented the simplest, easiest and most efficient logic to discover the one and only true religion. But you want to stick to the religion that Arabians are propagating. So preach your religion to them without bringing Jehovah's Witnesses into your arguments.
For your information, all of you are worshipping the same God, a lazy God whose effectiveness can't be felt if observing his worshippers!

Our own JEHOVAH has
¤Theories
¤Practical Applications and
¤Benefits

All of you can SEE the efficiency of our God, as he is able to catch people from different countries, cultures and traditions {Isaiah 2:1-4} bringing us together as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers! John 17:20-23

So deal with your friends as you argue argue and argue for nothing, while our own God is working out {John 5:17} what all eyes can SEE! Matthew 5:14-16 smiley

Jesus prayed as follows;

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.I have given them the glory that you gave me, that THEY MAY BE ONE as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:20-23)"

So if your god is not a lazy one but effective and efficient, why did he fail to answer that prayer of his only begotten son as he ALWAYS answered him (John 11:42) ? Or are you in complete unity with Trinitarians? Or are you in complete unity with oneness Pentecostal ? Or are you in complete unity with Catholics ?

If by being in COMPLETE UNITY that the entire world will know that your god has sent his only begotten son ( as stated in those verses), then do you still believe that your god has sent his son to the entire world (see Matthew 15:24) by not answering this very prayer?
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 10:49am On Aug 13
Abdulgaffar22:



The verse of Qur'an you quoted says ;

" I (Jesus) breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah"

So it is not by power of Jesus. It is by power of God . Jesus himself has confessed; by myself I can do NOTHING (John 5:30). Therefore, that miracle does not make him to be God.


I don't have problem with biblical verses that seem to prove Jesus divinity. The problem I am having with the Bible is inconsistency.
For example, consider Luke 6:12 which says "Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD". If Jesus is God and God is one, then the verse should read ; " Jesus continued all night in prayer to the FATHER". Of course, if Father was used in place of God, the verse will still retain its original meaning and doctrine of Trinity will remain undisturbed.

But by saying Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD, the Bible has clearly distinguished Jesus from God. Pls do you really get my point?
So stop accusing me with lack of spiritual understanding.

If not because you referred to Jehovah's Witnesses in this thread, there's no need of setting things straight for you. It would have sounded better to leave you and your friends in your arguments!

Jesus took part in the creation work just as Adam also took part in the PRO[/b]creation work. But both of them have a Person before whom they're accountable, Jesus was the one acting in line with all the instructions found @ Genesis 1:1-31. "Let there be" is the command from the Almighty God {JEHOVAH} to his mighty spirit son {Jesus}. Exodus 6:2-3, Isaiah 9:6

Adam was to create humans through the power bestow on him as he continued bearing children,this may sound somehow but think of how a man will feel if he is impotent or unable to get his wife pregnant. Instead of observers who would have agreed that the ability to procreate is of the Almighty, majority will turn him to a laughing stock as if the power belongs to him,the same is applicable to a woman who finds it hard to conceive! smiley

So both Jesus and Adam were given the power to do whatever they did. 1Corinthians 15:45

Jesus served as God at a point in time just as Moses also served as God {Exodus 7:1}, that's why John could rightly say [b]the word WAS God"
John 1:1

Although all other things created were the handiwork of Jesus{Proverbs 8:22-31} under the direction and supervision of his God and Father {John 20:17}, Jesus has no right whatsoever to destroy any creature made in God's image unless God {the real owner} authorise him to do so! Psalms 110:1

But all of these and many more are just like offhand THEORIES which should be PRACTICALLY APPLIED so that whoever feels it sounds like fairytales can stand at a distance observing the BENEFITS! Matthew 5:14-16

Otherwise it's total gibberish, nonsense and ingredients if there's nothing to show for all these stories! James 2:18-26
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 11:14am On Aug 13
Abdulgaffar22:


Jesus prayed as follows;

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.I have given them the glory that you gave me, that THEY MAY BE ONE as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:20-23)"

So if your god is not a lazy one but effective and efficient, why did he fail to answer that prayer of his only begotten son as he ALWAYS answered him (John 11:42) ? Or are you in complete unity with Trinitarians? Or are you in complete unity with oneness Pentecostal ? Or are you in complete unity with Catholics ?

If by being in COMPLETE UNITY that the entire world will know that your god has sent his only begotten son ( as stated in those verses), then do you still believe that your god has sent his son to the entire world (see Matthew 15:24) by not answering this very prayer?

Walahi Talahi you're the funniest clown ever Abdulgaffar, sorry to say this! cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy

Haba!

Jesus himself said

¤There will be false Christs in his name {self acclaimed redeemers for all mankind claiming successors of Jesus} and many will follow them! Matthew 24:5
Well for your information, Your Muhammad is the leader of all such ones because he claimed that Jesus said someone will come after him! John 14:16

¤There will be countless false Christians in the world! Matthew 7:21-23

Then he prayed that his own TRUE followers will become one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers! John 13:34-35, 17:20-23

All these religions {including your Islam} have failed so woefully to make their followers become that ONE big family.

And you're seeing over 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses fulfilling that purpose, yet you're still expecting misinformed churchgoers {false Christians} to be in union with Jesus' true followers, after seeing people from different Nationalities, Cultures and Traditions forming one family in the name of JEHOVAH!

Because this same Jesus said just as it happened in the day of Noah when majority are not observant enough! Luke 17:26
Now the world is about 9billions and just 8.5 million which is less than ratio 1~1, 000 have formed that global family that Jesus prayed for and you're still expecting something else!

Sorry is your name Sir, i'm really sorry for you! cheesy
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by enilove(m): 12:03pm On Aug 13
Maximus69:


@bolded is a misconception please!

One with God doesn't literally mean in the same level with God

It connotes readiness to align/conform one's thought to harmonise with whatever God decides! This is not easy because God's thoughts are far higher than that of any of his creatures {Isaiah 55:9} that's why Jesus begged his father and God to do something regarding his execution but he was ever ready to accept whatever God decides! Matthew 26:39

For instance in a prayer, Jesus begged God to help his followers so that they too will become one with God and himself just as he and his father{God} are one! John 17:20-23

If your analogy is correct, then all those who truly believe in Jesus will be in the same level with God!

You may not know what it truly means but the Jews understood what it means and Jesus himself did not deny it :

John 10:30-39 KJV
I and my Father are one.
[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. [32] Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
[35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
[37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
[39] Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 12:31pm On Aug 13
Maximus69:

Walahi Talahi you're the funniest clown ever Abdulgaffar, sorry to say this! cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy

Haba!

Jesus himself said

¤There will be false Christs in his name {self acclaimed redeemers for all mankind claiming successors of Jesus} and many will follow them! Matthew 24:5

If Jesus knew that many among those who believe in him will be false Christians(Matthew 7:21-23), then why setting a COMPLETE UNITY as a prophecy that must be fulfilled so that entire world will know that God has sent his only begotten son (John 17:20-23) ? Remember Jesus did not say a small portion (like 8.5 millions) but he said ; I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL OF THEM (about 2.3 billions) MAY BE ONE (John 17:20-21)


Maximus69:

Well for your information, Your Muhammad is the leader of all such ones because he claimed that Jesus said someone will come after him! John 14:16
If no one was coming after Jesus, then who is that very person that will SPEAK what ever he HEAR as the following verses indicate ?

" I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He HEARS He will SPEAK; and He will tell you things to come."(John 16:12-13)
Maximus69:


¤There will be countless false Christians in the world! Matthew 7:21-23

Then he prayed that his own TRUE followers will become one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers! John 13:34-35, 17:20-23

All these religions {including your Islam} have failed so woefully to make their followers become that ONE big family.

And you're seeing over 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses fulfilling that purpose, yet you're still expecting misinformed churchgoers {false Christians} to be in union with Jesus' true followers, after seeing people from different Nationalities, Cultures and Traditions forming one family in the name of JEHOVAH!

Because this same Jesus said just as it happened in the day of Noah when majority are not observant enough! Luke 17:26
Now the world is about 9billions and just 8.5 million which is less than ratio 1~1, 000 have formed that global family that Jesus prayed for and you're still expecting something else!

Sorry is your name Sir, i'm really sorry for you! cheesy



You are only less than 200 years old. You don't know what would happen in the future. Do you have any strong evidence to prove that such harmony has not once existed before among the Catholics, the Muslims and others ?
Besides, I have told you several times that you can not judge any faith base on the behavior of its adherents. Many are religionist by BIRTH. Just compare the number of Muslims who observed their daily prayers in the mosque during time of Ramadan with number of those that observed them at other times. What a huge difference ! So how could you expect such weak Muslims to derive spiritual benefits from their prayer ?
So the truthfulness or falsehood of a faith can only be known by studying what is written in their scriptures; not by looking at its adherents
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 2:53pm On Aug 13
Maximus69:



Jesus took part in the creation work just as Adam also took part in the [b]PRO[/b]creation work. But both of them have a Person before whom they're accountable, Jesus was the one acting in line with all the instructions found @ Genesis 1:1-31. "Let there be" is the command from the Almighty God {JEHOVAH} to his mighty spirit son {Jesus}. Exodus 6:2-3, Isaiah 9:6

You are yet to provide an evidence that Jesus acted on those series of command given by Jehovah in Genesis 1:1-31. I have read your reference verses(Exodus 6:2-3 & Isaiah 9:6). They say nothing about the topic in question. But if you believe they do say it. Quote them and explain how they do.

But I have already given you the evidence that Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah (not Jesus) that need to be RESTED and REFRESHED Himself on the seventh day (Exodus 31:17). So I am expecting you to nullify this very evidence BEFORE saying anything.

Maximus69:


Adam was to create humans through the power bestow on him as he continued bearing children,this may sound somehow but think of how a man will feel if he is impotent or unable to get his wife pregnant. Instead of observers who would have agreed that the ability to procreate is of the Almighty, majority will turn him to a laughing stock as if the power belongs to him,the same is applicable to a woman who finds it hard to conceive! smiley

So both Jesus and Adam were given the power to do whatever they did. 1Corinthians 15:45

Although all other things created were the handiwork of Jesus{Proverbs 8:22-31} under the direction and supervision of his God and Father {John 20:17},



We understand clearly how God employed Adam and his children to participate in the act of procreation; i:e through sexual activity. So how EXACTLY did Jehovah employ Jesus as a master worker during the creation of heavens and earth ? If you are unable to explain, then there is NOTHING to compare.
Of course after sexual activity that bring about procreation, we need to be rested and refreshed our selves. So in similar manner, Jesus also need to be rested and refreshed himself if he truly engage in general creation of all other things. But this is not the case. So where is the similarity ? How exactly did Jehovah use him?
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 2:55pm On Aug 13
enilove:


You may not know what it truly means but the Jews understood what it means and Jesus himself did not deny it :

John 10:30-39 KJV
I and my Father are one.
[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. [32] Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
[35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
[37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
[39] Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

@bolded

Misconception again!

Notice that these Jews {including his faithful disciples} never understood any of the sacred secrets protruding out of Jesus' mouth! Most times, his faithful followers often goes back to meet him in secret for the meaning of what he is saying! Matthew 13:13, Mark 4:12 compared Matthew 16:6-12

The Pharisees were the ones instigating their people to hate Jesus so that whatever he says sounds odd in their hears {John 6:63-66} but the Apostles weren't in a hurry to leave, they knew that there's no where else to go for life saving messages apart from Jesus! John 6:67-69

Jesus quoted the Bible book of Psalms 82:6 there, and in that particular verse it was written "i say you are gods", of course Jesus is one of those mighty spirit sons of God{Isaiah 9:6} in the midst of whom the Almighty God stood and judge! Psalms 82:1

So Jesus meant he is also a God as in one of God's mighty spirit sons but the Jewish rabbis who never wanted to accept Jesus as the Messiah accused Jesus that he is claiming to be what he's not. Though they knew perfectly that the scriptures clearly says the Messiah existed before Adam, and even King David referred to the Messiah as my Lord{Psalms 110:1, Act 2:34-35} but because Jesus condemned their hypocritical worship they're bent on destroying him! Matthew 22:41-46
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 3:40pm On Aug 13
Abdulgaffar22:


If Jesus knew that many among those who believe in him will be false Christians(Matthew 7:21-23), then why setting a COMPLETE UNITY as a prophecy that must be fulfilled so that entire world will know that God has sent his only begotten son (John 17:20-23) ? Remember Jesus did not say a small portion (like 8.5 millions) but he said ; I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL OF THEM (about 2.3 billions) MAY BE ONE (John 17:20-21)



If no one was coming after Jesus, then who is that very person that will SPEAK what he HEAR as the following verses indicate ?

" I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He HEARS He will SPEAK; and He will tell you things to come."(John 16:12-13)


You are only less than 200 years old. You don't know what would happen in the future. Do you have any strong evidence to prove that such harmony has not once existed before among the Catholics, the Muslims and others ?
Besides, I have told you several times that you can not judge any faith base on the behavior of its adherents. Many are religionist by BIRTH. Just compare the number of Muslims who observed their daily prayers in the mosque during time of Ramadan with number of those that observed them at other times. What a huge difference ! So how could you expect such weak Muslims to derive spiritual benefits from their prayer ?
So the truthfulness or falsehood of a faith can only be known by studying what is written in their scriptures; not by looking at its adherents

Your problem is spiritual deafness!

Now listen carefully and instead of using the mindset of those your Arabian hypocrites, try not to be biased!

Jesus warned that false Christians {they're NOT Christians but misinformed individuals who only feels like making a showoff with the name that has now become so popular and accept} will surface! Matthew 13:24-30

Regarding small portion Jesus clearly said many were called but few will find the way! Matthew 7:13-14

Jesus was talking to his first century Jewish followers regarding the promise of the helper and he told them "if i did not leave the helper will not come".

Hellooooo my guy, no be Mr Muhammad that place dey talk ooooooooo because Muhammad was born 570 years later and by then all those to whom Jesus made the promised were gone!
Moreover if Jesus promised that someone will come after him and it's ONLY Apostle John that recorded that part, how come you Muslims don't agree with the opening words of the gospel written by this same Apostle John? cheesy

My guy, me i tey for this false religion called Islam pass you and i know sey na anywhere them fit chuk head to support their religion them go face, so their religion no fit stand without loopholes! cheesy

So it is God's Holy Spirit that helped them to remain United and complete the writing of the Bible during the time when the Apostles {pioneers of Christianity} were still alive, but after their death Satan established falsehood known today as the Catholic Church {Matthew 13:25} and that's what Muhammad knew as Christians, before he started fabricating stories of falsehood!

Jehovah's Witnesses are the true worshipers of God who never had the opportunity of coming out to declare the truth since the death of the Apostles! The Catholics oppressed them through the dark ages so that they remain in the hidden, but when America declared freedom of speech, expression and worship that's the time they were liberated from false religions and they began gathering together as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers just as Jesus {God's only begotten son} prayed! John 17:20-23

Notice that the oneness lasted for less than two centuries after Jesus left but according to Jesus' prayers this ones are putting faith in the things written by those UNITED first century Christians {John 17:20} that's why they're able to unite as you are seeing today!

Jesus prayed and Muhammad claims to be sent by the same God who sent Jesus, i can't believe this Muhammad was sent by that same God if his followers aren't united as a family!
So i know there are ORIGINAL and FAKE Muslims, instead of arguing, why not just present that original group claiming Muslims that are like one family whose bond can't be broken by RACISM? cheesy
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 5:52pm On Aug 13
Maximus69:


Your problem is spiritual deafness!

Now listen carefully and instead of using the mindset of those your Arabian hypocrites, try not to be biased!

Jesus warned that false Christians {they're NOT Christians but misinformed individuals who only feels like making a showoff with the name that has now become so popular and accept} will surface! Matthew 13:24-30

Regarding small portion Jesus clearly said many were called but few will find the way! Matthew 7:13-14


Jesus simply said with NO ADDITION ;
I pray also for THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE IN ME through their message (John 17:20).
Do all other Christians not believe in Jesus through the message of the Gospel ?
You will notice that I did not include the Muslims and the Mormons despite the fact that they also believe in Jesus; but it was NOT through the message of the Gospel.
So your argument amounts to nothing because all other Christians also believe in Jesus through the message of the Gospel. So there is no way you can harmonize this very passage (John 17:20-23) with Matthew 7:21-23. Either of the two passages must be false. Take it or leave it

Maximus69:



Jesus was talking to his first century Jewish followers regarding the promise of the helper and he told them "if i did not leave the helper will not come".

Hellooooo my guy, no be Mr Muhammad that place dey talk ooooooooo because Muhammad was born 570 years later and by then all those to whom Jesus made the promised were gone!
Moreover if Jesus promised that someone will come after him and it's ONLY Apostle John that recorded that part, how come you Muslims don't agree with the opening words of the gospel written by this same Apostle John? cheesy

My guy, me i tey for this false religion called Islam pass you and i know sey na anywhere them fit chuk head to support their religion them go face, so their religion no fit stand without loopholes! cheesy

So it is God's Holy Spirit that helped them to remain United and complete the writing of the Bible during the time when the Apostles {pioneers of Christianity} were still alive, but after their death Satan established falsehood known today as the Catholic Church {Matthew 13:25} and that's what Muhammad knew as Christians, before he started fabricating stories of falsehood!


So it was the Holy Spirit that will SPEAK what ever he HEARS ? HEAR FROM WHO ? SPEAK TO WHO ?

By the way, you believe that Holy Spirit is an ACTIVE FORCE (Genesis 1:2 NWT) and not a person that can hear and speak. Or have you suddenly believed in Trinity ?

Maximus69:


Jehovah's Witnesses are the true worshipers of God who never had the opportunity of coming out to declare the truth since the death of the Apostles! The Catholics oppressed them through the dark ages so that they remain in the hidden, but when America declared freedom of speech, expression and worship that's the time they were liberated from false religions and they began gathering together as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers just as Jesus {God's only begotten son} prayed! John 17:20-23

Notice that the oneness lasted for less than two centuries after Jesus left but according to Jesus' prayers this ones are putting faith in the things written by those UNITED first century Christians {John 17:20} that's why they're able to unite as you are seeing today!

Jesus prayed and Muhammad claims to be sent by the same God who sent Jesus, i can't believe this Muhammad was sent by that same God if his followers aren't united as a family!
So i know there are ORIGINAL and FAKE Muslims, instead of arguing, why not just present that original group claiming Muslims that are like one family whose bond can't be broken by RACISM? cheesy

I have told you several times about Tabligh brothers with large beard and jumping trousers that normally traveled from villages to villages for the work of preaching. But you turn deaf hear to this. Why can't you go to Google now and type Tabligh janmah under Wikipedia and read about their activities.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 6:42pm On Aug 13
Abdulgaffar22:

(1)Jesus simply said with NO ADDITION ;
I pray also for THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE IN ME through their message (John 17:20).
Do all other Christians not believe in Jesus through the message of the Gospel ?
You will notice that I did not include the Muslims and the Mormons despite the fact that they also believe in Jesus; but it was NOT through the message of the Gospel.
So your argument amounts to nothing because all other Christians also believe in Jesus through the message of the Gospel. So there is no way you can harmonize this very passage (John 17:20-23) with Matthew 7:21-23. Either of the two passages must be false. Take it or leave it

(2)So it was the Holy Spirit that will SPEAK what ever he HEARS ? HEAR FROM WHO ? SPEAK TO WHO ?
By the way, you believe that Holy Spirit is an ACTIVE FORCE (Genesis 1:2 NWT) and not a person that can hear and speak. Or have you suddenly believed in Trinity ?

(3)I have told you several times about Tabligh brothers with large beard and jumping trousers that normally traveled from villages to villages for the work of preaching. But you turn deaf hear to this. Why can't you go to Google now and type Tabligh janmah under Wikipedia and read about their activities.
grin grin grin grin grin

You're just hitting your head on the walls for nothing my friend!
I've told you the truth but you're backing on the misinformation Muhammad passed to those gullible and racists called Arabians!

(1) The TRUE Gospel is about God's Kingdom that will be established here on earth {Matthew 6:10 compared Psalms 37:9-11} you guys going to live in heaven or Hellfire, therefore the difference between our message and that of you guys is distinctly clear! cheesy

(2)The Holy Spirit is God's active force, but Arabian mentality will not allow you to think straight. When Peter declared that Jesus is the son of God, who did Jesus said spoke through Peter? Matthew 16:17
Sorry Mr Muhammadan it's God's Holy Spirit that spoke through Peter, that's why Satan also spoke immediately through the same Peter {Matthew 16:21-23} Satan was so stupid that he thought perfect Jesus {God's only begotten son} won't be able to distinguish between the utterances of God through the power of his Holy Spirit{Active force} and the utterances motivated by Satan's worldly thinking! cheesy

(3)Walahi Talahi you're now reasoning like a toddler!
If you're not stupid Sir, Jehovah's Witnesses are coming to disturb me always with their message until i decided to give them a listening hear, but you're now asking me to Google for your so called Talib wetin, are you this daft that you can't even discern between God's messengers and those working for man? Come on my friend, throughout the globe everyone know Jehovah's Witnesses and can say one thing if not five out of what they believe! You're now expecting me to start searching through Google when these your so called Talib aren't coming! cheesy Abeg wetin concern me with them?
Sorry Mr Muhammadan, i have no business with neither Jehovah's Witnesses nor your so called Talib, so let them locate me the same way JWs do and let's see if their God has equipped them like the JWs who were persistent, zealous, fully competent and completely equipped to inculcate their teachings in my mind without threatening me! cheesy
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Emusan(m): 7:16pm On Aug 13
Maximus69:


All he needed from you now is to prove your claim from the pages of the Bible! NOT blaming others for your failure to explain yourself!

A book containing 1,189 Chapters and 31,200 verses shouldn't be that difficult for you to locate just one single verse to prove your claim! wink

Who asked you, mr hypocrite

Before you know it now, you'll begin to jump from frying pan to frying pan, dishing gebbrish.
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 7:23pm On Aug 13
Abdulgaffar22:


You are yet to provide an evidence that Jesus acted on those series of command given by Jehovah in Genesis 1:1-31. I have read your reference verses(Exodus 6:2-3 & Isaiah 9:6). They say nothing about the topic in question. But if you believe they do say it. Quote them and explain how they do.

But I have already given you the evidence that Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah (not Jesus) that need to be RESTED and REFRESHED Himself on the seventh day (Exodus 31:17). So I am expecting you to nullify this very evidence BEFORE saying anything.


We understand clearly how God employed Adam and his children to participate in the act of procreation; i:e through sexual activity. So how EXACTLY did Jehovah employ Jesus as a master worker during the creation of heavens and earth ? If you are unable to explain, then there is NOTHING to compare.
Of course after sexual activity that bring about procreation, we need to be rested and refreshed our selves. So in similar manner, Jesus also need to be rested and refreshed himself if he truly engage in general creation of all other things. But this is not the case. So where is the similarity ? How exactly did Jehovah use him?

¤THEORIES
¤PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS and
¤BENEFITS

That's just what these is all about!

Whatever was written in those books from Genesis to Revelations could sound really stupid to anyone and that's exactly what Apostle Paul said. 1Corinthians 2:14
But after the Theories have been inculcated in the minds of people, taught them how to Practically Apply it and the Benefits becomes obvious, there's nothing anyone can say against the Faith Sir! Galatians 5:23 wink

For a certainty, that's how God the one who is the best teacher have prepared it, otherwise it wouldn't have worked out what is Beneficial! wink
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Maximus69: 7:32pm On Aug 13
Emusan:


Who asked you, mr hypocrite

Before you know it now, you'll begin to jump from frying pan to frying pan, dishing gebbrish.

Sorry Mr honesty,
So now you can defend your beliefs with the book before someone who is totally neutral on the matter! cheesy
Re: The Problem Of Who Is God And Who Is The Creator Are Yet To Be Resolved by Abdulgaffar22: 9:26pm On Aug 13
@ maximus69

This is from Wikipedia


Tablighi Jamaat (Tablīghī Jamā‘at; lit. Society for spreading faith) is a non-political global missionary movement that focuses on urging Muslims to return to Practicing Islam,[5][6] and particularly in matters of ritual, dress, and personal behavior.[7] The organisation is estimated to have between 12 million[8] and 150 million adherents[3] (the majority living in South Asia[9]), and a presence in somewhere between 150[8] and 200 countries.[3] It has been called "one of the most influential religious movements in 20th century Islam".[10]

2009 Malaysian Annual Congregation of Tablighi Jamaat Sepang Selangor, Malaysia
2009 Malaysian Annual Congregation of Tablighi Jamaat
Sepang Selangor, Malaysia
Founder
Muhammad Ilyas Kandhlawi
Regions with significant populations
India
Pakistan
Bangladesh
[1]
United Kingdom
Indonesia
[2]
Malaysia
Singapore
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Turkey
Yemen
Kyrgyzstan
Russia
Somalia
Nigeria
United States
Canada
Mexico
China ( Hong Kong)
France
[3][4]
Germany
[3]
Tanzania
Brazil
Philippines
West Indies
Qatar
Jordan
Mauritania
Morocco
Algeria
Azerbaijan
Religions
Sunni Islam
Scriptures
Quran, Hadith, Sunnat.
Languages
Liturgical: Arabic
In Bangladesh: Bengali
In India: Urdu
In Pakistan: Urdu
In the diaspora: In UK: Respective regional languages
The movement was founded in 1927 by Muhammad Ilyas al-Kandhlawi in India in accordance to the teachings and practices that take place in The Prophet's Mosque and Ashabus Suffah Tabligh.[11][12] by sending students of the religion to learn the religion around the world. Its stated primary aim is spiritual reformation of Islam by reaching out to Muslims across social and economic spectra and working at the grassroots level, to bring them in line with the group's understanding of Islam.[3][13] The teachings of Tabligh Jamaat are expressed in "Six Principles" (Kalimah (Declaration of faith), Salah (Prayer), Ilm-o-zikr (Knowledge), Ikraam-e-Muslim (Respect of Muslim), Ikhlas-e-Niyyat (Sincerity of intention), Dawat-o-Tableegh (Proselytizaton)).[14] Tablighi Jamaat believes that Muslims are in a constant state of spiritual Jihad in the sense of fight against evil, the weapon of choice is Dawah (proselytization) and that battles are won or lost in the "hearts of men."

Tablighi Jamaat began as an offshoot of the Deobandi movement, and a response to perceived deteriorating moral values and a supposed negligence of aspects of Islam.[15] It expanded from a local to a national to an international movement.

Tablighi Jamaat denies any affiliation in politics and fiqh (jurisprudence),[16] focusing instead on the Quran and Hadith,[16][17] and states that it rejects violence as a means for evangelism,[18] (although some members have become involved in politics in Pakistan). Tablighi Jamaat has claimed to avoid electronic media and in favor of personal communication for proselytising, although prominent Tablighi personalities such as Tariq Jameel are featured on an extensive range of Internet videos and often appear on TV.

Tablighi Jamaat attracted significant public and media attention when it announced plans for the largest mosque in Europe to be built in London, United Kingdom.

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