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Who Created God? - Religion (13) - Nairaland

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If Nothing Can Exist Without A Creator, So What Created God? / What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question / Who Created God? - An Invalid Question (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 12:15pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka:

1. For now, it is the best Scientific assumption.
2. There is actually no evidence yet that the universe is bounded in any way.
3. The Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker (FLRW) model (one of the most recent model of the universe) assume that the universe is unbounded.

So, why should I take otherwise in me trying to prove that there must exist an "Uncaused First Cause?". That would be like negating a known to satisfy an unknown
I don't think scientists assume the universe has a limit or is bounded. You yourself say "one of the most recent model of the universe assumes that the universe is unbounded", so what's your basis for a boundaried universe?

Don't such unevidenced assumptions reduce trust in your argument making it less likely to be believed?

2 Likes 2 Shares

Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 1:02pm On Oct 07, 2019
LordReed:


Magically, you need your magic eyes to be opened.
Lmao!! grin

I'm tired of his special pleading fallacy.
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 1:13pm On Oct 07, 2019
Nairaland's spam bots have banned me for no just cause. My second Monika is activated.

budaatum:

I don't think scientists assume the universe has a limit or is bounded. You yourself say "one of the most recent model of the universe assumes that the universe is unbounded", so what's your basis for a boundaried universe?

Don't such unevidenced assumptions reduce trust in your argument making it less likely to be believed?
I didn't say the universe was bounded.

I said:
There is actually no evidence yet that the universe is bounded in any way.

I believe the universe is open (expands forever) , isolated (no energy is entering or leaving the system) and unbounded (unconstrained by any external force).

The fact that I said the universe extends from +infinity to -infinity does not imply that it is closed or bounded.

Are we totally sure of this? No!
But such boundaries of the universe has not be detected nor is there evidence that the energy of the universe is increasing or decreasing.
As scientists, we can only go with what has been observed or inferred from even incomplete data.

This is more true now for people who desbelieve in God because no evidence to such has been seen.
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 1:22pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:
Nairaland's spam bots have banned me for no just cause. My second Monika is activated.


I didn't say the universe was bounded.

I said:


I believe the universe is open (expands forever) , isolated (no energy is entering or leaving the system) and unbounded (unconstrained by any external force).

The fact that I said the universe extends from +infinity to -infinity does not imply that it is closed or bounded.

Are we totally sure of this? No!
But such boundaries of the universe has not be detected nor is there evidence that the energy of the universe is increasing or decreasing.
As scientists, we can only go with what has been observed or inferred from even incomplete data.

This is more true now for people who desbelieve in God because no evidence to such has been seen.
You mentioned "entropy" which only applys in a closed system, one with defined boundaries.

Scientists, by the best of my knowledge, do not go by incomplete data. Neither is "belief" scientific. Scientists may speculate, but they don't expect anyone to run off and claim their speculation on incomplete data is the truth.

1 Like

Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 2:24pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:
Nairaland's spam bots have banned me for no just cause. My second Monika is activated.


I didn't say the universe was bounded.

I said:


I believe the universe is open (expands forever) , isolated (no energy is entering or leaving the system) and unbounded (unconstrained by any external force).

The fact that I said the universe extends from +infinity to -infinity does not imply that it is closed or bounded.

Are we totally sure of this? No!
But such boundaries of the universe has not be detected nor is there evidence that the energy of the universe is increasing or decreasing.
As scientists, we can only go with what has been observed or inferred from even incomplete data.

This is more true now for people who desbelieve in God because no evidence to such has been seen.
This might interest you:

https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy

I wouldn't say that the universe is an isolated system. Theologically, it cannot be. Scientifically, the observation suggests that it is not. Logically, if something is increasing in some way, then something is being added to it by something outside of it. Finally, it only makes sense that a thing has boundaries if it is expanding, since expansion assumes the existence of limits that are being violated to establish new ones.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 3:23pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka:

The first proponents of Argument from ignorance are the Atheists.

Because we have not been able to see nor demonstrate the spiritual realm/God, therefore, they do not exist.
This is called a strawman fallacy. That is not the Atheist position. You may have an Atheist who is brave enough to argue the position, in which case he would/could be an Anti-Theist. The Atheist position is much simpler and requires no burden of proof: we can't observe or detect gods/spiritual realms, therefore, we have no reason to believe such claims.

2 Likes

Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 3:33pm On Oct 07, 2019
Ihedinobi3:

This might interest you:

https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy

I wouldn't say that the universe is an isolated system. Theologically, it cannot be. Scientifically, the observation suggests that it is not. Logically, if something is increasing in some way, then something is being added to it by something outside of it. Finally, it only makes sense that a thing has boundaries if it is expanding, since expansion assumes the existence of limits that are being violated to establish new ones.
I think the perceived boundaries and limits of the universe are due to human imaginations. Seems in science and theology we are good at it too.

Why limit or put boundaries around either when the truth is our minds can't quite measure either? Can't the universe be as boundless and limitless as the God who supposedly created it?

2 Likes

Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 3:46pm On Oct 07, 2019
TheArranger:

SHADEYINKA
TINTINGZ
BUDAATUM
LORDREED
XXSABRINAXX

Check this out and let me hear your thoughts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2dYW1pSQy8
Good choice. Awwwn... I love Rationality Rules! smiley

Unfortunately, shadeyinka will never watch it. Even if he does, it will just be a quick skim just so he can make his compulsory reply. Anyone who thinks they can ignore simple word definitions, is never going to trouble themselves with understanding fallacies in informal logic. However, everytime he lies that he is using rational arguments, and/or logical proofs from now on will get that simple explanation of the logical fallacy he keeps using linked. People like him are devoid of integrity and never feel embarrassed by their dishonesty.

3 Likes

Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 3:50pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

You mentioned "entropy" which only applys in a closed system, one with defined boundaries.

Scientists, by the best of my knowledge, do not go by incomplete data. Neither is "belief" scientific. Scientists may speculate, but they don't expect anyone to run off and claim their speculation on incomplete data is the truth.
He has only been told this 42 times now. He does not give a sh*t.

4 Likes

Re: Who Created God? by Martinez39(m): 3:57pm On Oct 07, 2019
XxSabrinaxX:

He has only been told this 42 times now. He does not give a sh*t.
Facts don't care about people's feelings and some people's feelings don't care about facts. grin

3 Likes 1 Share

Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 4:00pm On Oct 07, 2019
Martinez39:
Facts don't care about people's feelings and some people's feelings don't care about facts. grin
Exactly, Martinez39! Words to live by..... grin

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 4:39pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

You mentioned "entropy" which only applys in a closed system, one with defined boundaries.

Scientists, by the best of my knowledge, do not go by incomplete data. Neither is "belief" scientific. Scientists may speculate, but they don't expect anyone to run off and claim their speculation on incomplete data is the truth.

The universe may be open and yet isolated. If the universe is isolated, then the law of entropy still holds true.

That the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia

The gravitational singleton is a speculation isn't it? Yet this forms the best theory we have as per the origin of the universe.

On speculations theories are built whenever data is incomplete.
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 4:42pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:


The universe may be open and yet isolated. If the universe is isolated, then the law of entropy still holds true.
The universe may rest on top of a tortoise too but with no evidence to support it I just can't see why one should be compelled to believe it is.

2 Likes

Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 5:06pm On Oct 07, 2019
Ihedinobi3:

This might interest you:

https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy

I wouldn't say that the universe is an isolated system. Theologically, it cannot be. Scientifically, the observation suggests that it is not. Logically, if something is increasing in some way, then something is being added to it by something outside of it. Finally, it only makes sense that a thing has boundaries if it is expanding, since expansion assumes the existence of limits that are being violated to establish new ones.
What an Interesting link (read)!

The expansion of the universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.

It would mean our universe is inside a kind of force field and hence NOT isolated. What if this "enclosure of our universe" is infinitely sized or also expanding and drawing the universe with it.

Some scientists are of the opinion that the universe is an isolated system.

The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

Which one should we believe?
If energy is being added to our universe to cause it's acceleration, would entropy ,of our universe be increasing or decreasing?

Now, why do you say the universe cannot theologically be an isolated system?
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:12pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:


Which one should we believe?
One does not have to believe or disbelieve!

"I don't quite know", is always a third option.
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 5:21pm On Oct 07, 2019
TheArranger:

This is called a strawman fallacy. That is not the Atheist position. You may have an Atheist who is brave enough to argue the position, in which case he would/could be an Anti-Theist. The Atheist position is much simpler and requires no burden of proof: we can't observe or detect gods/spiritual realms, therefore, we have no reason to believe such claims.
Sorry sir!

There was a time the earth was thought to be Flat, it took the Circumnavigation of the earth to debunk such error.

Theists never had to justify why or how God existed until Atheists like you came around screaming " we have seen no Scientific and Emperical proof of God!"

Hence, onus is on you to act like Christopher Columbus and prove otherwise. Otherwise, your ranting is like telling the "Flat earth proponents" to prove that the earth is flat.

So, you see the "sillyness" of your position!

1 Like

Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 5:32pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

The universe may rest on top of a tortoise too but with no evidence to support it I just can't see why one should be compelled to believe it is.
I think you have to state your own beliefs (Logical and Scientific) about your perceived relation between the Uncaused First Cause, Entropy of the Universe/thermodynamics, infinite regress of cause and effect etc.

I hate a situation where an atheist is willing to hide under "we don't know what is outside our universe" AND yet still come out to assert that " whatever is outside the universe CANNOT be God"! If you don't know, how do you then know?

1 Like

Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 5:36pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

One does not have to believe or disbelieve!

"I don't quite know", is always a third option.
"I don't know...!"
is an option if it would not be with ended with
" but I know...!"

How are we sure we don't live in a universe of a higher dimension than the 3D or the trio of Energy, Space and Time?
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 5:41pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

The universe may rest on top of a tortoise too but with no evidence to support it I just can't see why one should be compelled to believe it is.

grin grin
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:52pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

I think you have to state your own beliefs (Logical and Scientific) about your perceived relation between the Uncaused First Cause, Entropy of the Universe/thermodynamics, infinite regress of cause and effect etc.
I don't do "beliefs". The devil believes and shudders so I don't see it as a good thing to emulate. I admit my ignorance when I don't know instead of claiming my beliefs are actual knowledge, which they aren't, because if they were knowledge, I would not believe it but would know it instead.

Examples are, I do not believe my mother is my mother because I know my mother is my mother.

I do not believe I have a million pounds in my bank account because when I checked I found much less than that there.

shadeyinka2:
I hate a situation where an atheist is willing to hide under "we don't know what is outside our universe" AND yet still be come out to assert that " whatever is outside the universe CANNOT be God"! If you don't know, how do you then know?
If I don't know, I don't know, and would only be showing how ignorant I am if I fill my ignorant gap with God. And if I do that, everytime I mention my God, the atheist hears "I don't know", even when I argue that God is actually my knowing, though I'm likely to claim it is a belief, which amounts to the same thing.

Besides, Jesus warned me not to be wasting my time on things I see not, for "inasmuch as I have done for those things that I do see, my Father in heaven is pleased". But most especially, in trying to show atheists that my God exists, I am forced to present them with an image of my God, and we all know how God feels about images.

One should not allow oneself to be led into temptation, I say.

Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 5:53pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

I think you have to state your own beliefs (Logical and Scientific) about your perceived relation between the Uncaused First Cause, Entropy of the Universe/thermodynamics, infinite regress of cause and effect etc.

I hate a situation where an atheist is willing to hide under "we don't know what is outside our universe" AND yet still come out to assert that " whatever is outside the universe CANNOT be God"! If you don't know, how do you then know?

Why must whatever outside the universe be a God, why can't it be an alien or super fairy or pink unicorn or Thanos or Galactus or magical tortoise like Budaatum suggest?

And I don't think Atheists (at least the ones I know) made such claim that whatever that's outside cannot be God, ofcos there are many logical reasons it cannot be the personal anthropomorphic contradictory God.
Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 5:54pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

What an Interesting link (read)!

The expansion of the universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.

It would mean our universe is inside a kind of force field and hence NOT isolated. What if this "enclosure of our universe" is infinitely sized or also expanding and drawing the universe with it.

Some scientists are of the opinion that the universe is an isolated system.

The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

Which one should we believe?
If energy is being added to our universe to cause it's acceleration, would entropy ,of our universe be increasing or decreasing?

Now, why do you say the universe cannot theologically be an isolated system?
Perhaps it is inside a force field, perhaps it is not. I don't see anything in the Bible about this. In fact, what I do see does not give me any reason to hypothesize a force field of any sort. It does give me reason to believe that God sustains the Universe by Himself, doing with it as He pleases.

As for the disparity of scientific opinions, not only is it a normal thing within scientific communities, but it is unavoidable in human communities. It may be thought that science is above human foibles, but that is not true at all. Science is made by human interpretation of data obtained through human experiments carried out using tools created by human beings. Even if we were to assume that the tools could never be faulty (and they are never perfect tools), and that the methods and experiments could never be wrong (and they are never actually perfect) so that the data is perfect, human interpretation of the data is never perfectly reliable. That is why science evolves. Human beings are imperfect. Their science is perforce the same.

Another thing to note is that every individual scientist, being human, possesses a human bias that guides their interpretation of scientific data. We cannot avoid that. Few scientists are godly and will only interpret the data in agreement with what the Bible indicates must be true. The vast majority are concerned with divorcing the universe from its Maker. They may admit extreme difficulty in doing so, but they don't stop trying for all that. These biases will always lead to conflicts of interpretation.

About your question about entropy, I'm not a scientist, so I cannot give you a technical answer. But I can tell you that the universe is bound over to decay, so that if entropy means that the universe is getting qualitatively worse everyday, then indeed the entropy is increasing.

As for the addition of energy and its relationship to entropy, if it is energy that is essentially a property of the new space that keeps "popping into existence," as NASA says, then obviously, it is not energy that can prevent increase in entropy. Therefore the two things can be happening at once: increasing space-energy and increasing entropy. I don't see that it matters theologically, because whatever the observation and opinions of scientists may be, the Lord Himself is preserving Creation and sustaining it (He upholds all things by the Word of His Power: Hebrews 1:3, cf 1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalm 93:1; 96:10; 104:5), even though He has also bound it over to decay or corruption (Romans 8:20). Both things are happening. The universe is decaying, but the Lord is still sustaining it. In time, He will renew it, and at the end of time, He will resurrect it so that it will be perfect, void of unrighteousness, incorruptible, and eternal. That is the concern of the believer.

As for your question about the universe being an isolated system, if it was, then it would not be a created system. God created the universe ex nihilo. It depends on Him to continue existing. As such, it must be open to Him to receive sustenance, and the Bible is unequivocal that He gives it. If that is true, then it is not isolated. It is constantly receiving from the Lord what it needs to keep existing.
Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 5:56pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

I think the perceived boundaries and limits of the universe are due to human imaginations. Seems in science and theology we are good at it too.

Why limit or put boundaries around either when the truth is our minds can't quite measure either? Can't the universe be as boundless and limitless as the God who supposedly created it?
You don't need my approval or consent to worship the universe, budaatum. By all means, do if you want. Don't let me or human imagination stop you.
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:58pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

"I don't know...!"
is an option if it would not be with ended with
" but I know...!"

How are we sure we don't live in a universe of a higher dimension than the 3D or the trio of Energy, Space and Time?
We might not be sure we don't live in a "higher dimension than the 3D or the trio of Energy, Space and Time", but why claim we do if there's no evidence to support we might? And why not just believe we live in a lower dimension of earth, water, fire and air instead, and that the earth is actually flat?
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:59pm On Oct 07, 2019
Ihedinobi3:

You don't need my approval or consent to worship the universe, budaatum. By all means, do if you want. Don't let me or human imagination stop you.
No one is worshipping the universe Ihe.
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 7:31pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

I hate a situation where an atheist is willing to hide under "we don't know what is outside our universe" AND yet still come out to assert that " whatever is outside the universe CANNOT be God"! If you don't know, how do you then know?
honestly, its baffled me top. when you tackle them very well, the best you will get from them is " I don't know" but on another thread, they will argued as if they know who created the universe . can you imaging an atheist asking a lady to prove with empirical evidence that God exist ? maybe he think God is one old man with white beard seated on the sky .

you don't need Faith, reason or logic to be an atheist. all you need to do is just reject anything someone told you about God .
John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth,
and the life; no one comes to the Father but
THROUGH ME.

JESUS exist and He has prove the Existence of His Father to the whole world long time ago.
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 7:42pm On Oct 07, 2019
budaatum:

We might not be sure we don't live in a "higher dimension than the 3D or the trio of Energy, Space and Time", but why claim we do if there's no evidence to support we might? And why not just believe we live in a lower dimension of earth, water, fire and air instead, and that the earth is actually flat?
Those of us who know God at an experiencial level know that God is a Spirit and that the spiritual realm exists. This knowledge/position cannot be denied especially in the face of several gaps within scientific knowledge. So that, it may be ok for an atheist to say "I do not know" but for a Christian, the claim of I do not know would either be a statement of untruth or a blatant deception.

I do not come to the knowledge of God through Science and my knowledge of God (which is the truth) biases me to fill in the gaps with what I already know as true until proven otherwise.

So, can I truthfully say I do not know? No!
Can I say I understand the science of how God made everything? No!

But the gaps within our present Scientific knowledge is massive. We can't even conclusively say whether the universe is open or closed, isolated or not. We hold on to some assumptions as if it is the complete truth and build empires of knowledge on them as if they are the basic truth eg. the Gravitational singleton etc.

How can Science discover if we have another dimension other than that of Energy, Space and time when we have completely shut our mind to its possibility?
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 7:47pm On Oct 07, 2019
malvisguy212:
honestly, its baffled me top. when you tackle them very well, the best you will get from them is " I don't know" but on another thread, they will argued as if they know who created the universe . can you imaging an atheist asking a lady to prove with empirical evidence that God exist ? maybe he think God is one old man with white beard seated on the sky .

you don't need Faith, reason or logic to be an atheist. all you need to do is just reject anything someone told you about God .
John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth,
and the life; no one comes to the Father but
THROUGH ME.

JESUS exist and He has prove the Existence of His Father to the whole world long time ago.
You couldn't have said it better. Atheism doesn't care about the Truth. What matters is the CHOICE to DESBELIEVE in the existence of the creator.

It amazes me as some people desbelieve that Buhari is Buhari but Jubril from Sudan. No logic or sense will convince a donkey that has made up its mind
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 7:55pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

You couldn't have said it better. Atheism doesn't care about the Truth. What matters is the CHOICE to DESBELIEVE in the existence of the creator.

It amazes me as some people desbelieve that Buhari is Buhari but Jubril from Sudan. No logic or sense will convince a donkey that has made up its mind
Read this thread I created , old thread. https://www.nairaland.com/3288341/how-satan-deceived-atheists
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 7:58pm On Oct 07, 2019
malvisguy212:
honestly, its baffled me top. when you tackle them very well, the best you will get from them is " I don't know" but on another thread, they will argued as if they know who created the universe . can you imaging an atheist asking a lady to prove with empirical evidence that God exist ? maybe he think God is one old man with white beard seated on the sky .

you don't need Faith, reason or logic to be an atheist. all you need to do is just reject anything someone told you about God .
John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth,
and the life; no one comes to the Father but
THROUGH ME.

JESUS exist and He has prove the Existence of His Father to the whole world long time ago.

How did you know about your God?
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 7:59pm On Oct 07, 2019
shadeyinka2:

You couldn't have said it better. Atheism doesn't care about the Truth. What matters is the CHOICE to DESBELIEVE in the existence of the creator.

It amazes me as some people desbelieve that Buhari is Buhari but Jubril from Sudan. No logic or sense will convince a donkey that has made up its mind

Do you believe a snake swallowed 32 million naira?
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 8:00pm On Oct 07, 2019
tintingz:


How did you know about your God?
how do I know that who I am charting with is a human ?

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