Ihedinobi3:

You're exactly right.

There are many false teachers out there. It isn't always easy to find reliable pastor-teachers. I started searching for reliable teaching from childhood, and I read everything, went to many churches, listened to and watched a large number of "pastors," "evangelists," "bishops," "apostles," and whatnot in my search. Whether they were just charismatic or academics or mystics, I listened to them all. In my frustration, I gave up looking for teachers and decided to teach myself.

The Lord was merciful to me and wouldn't let me settle into self-deceit, so although I spent a long time pretending to be a mature believer and even teaching the things that I was not so sure were true (you can check my old Nairaland account https://www.nairaland.com/ihedinobi2 for proof), I did not lie to myself about things that I simply didn't understand in the Bible, nor did I lie to myself that we are not responsible to learn everything the Bible has to teach us.

Eventually, I got off of Nairaland and tried to figure the whole business of life out. That culminated in a desperate cry to the Lord in 2016. In that prayer, I confessed my ignorance and confusion and my need to learn the Truth. It was a desperate cry. I was terrified that I had destroyed my life with my arrogance up to that point. The Lord was very kind to me. About a year from then, on October 3, 2017, a Google search about whether Christians should be competitive in business led me to https://ichthys.com that was so deep into the results that I think I found it close to the fourth or tenth page, I can't remember which. I read a snippet from this link and got hooked. I had no idea that the webpage was actually book-length, but I read it through and went "into" the website to find more. I ended up spending the next nine months or so reading all the major works on the site, and I have remained with the ministry until now. For the first time in the more than three decades of my life, I am finally seeing the Bible clearly and appreciating the way life works according to God's Plan. For the first time too, I can exercise my pastor-teaching gift without fear that I am misleading anyone who listens to me.

This is all what Paul taught us in the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 4:

[11]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[12]for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
[13]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
[14]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
[15]but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
[16]from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-16 NASB

That is, the Lord gave some gifts for the specific job of growing the Church to maturity. The Apostle, the prophet, the pastor-teacher, and the evangelist are given by the Lord to build up the Church by bringing in new believers through the dispensation of the Gospel to unbelievers who are willing to hear and receive it (the job of the Apostle and the evangelist especially), and feeding these new believers with the Truth of God's Word so that they come to understand what the Gospel they believed is really about and become resilient to the lies of the enemy that war against their souls (the job of the Apostle, prophet, and pastor-teacher). When these new believers have learned the full system of Truth in the Bible, that is, when they have come to appreciate and believe the full picture of Bible teaching, not necessarily when they have come to know every single detail of teaching in the Bible, they are mature spiritually and can handle life in this world with considerably less risk of losing their faith in the midst of the lies and pressures of this world. At this point, they experience the tests of maturity that the Lord sends to harden them in their spiritual progress, so that they are able to help other believers to also develop and progress in the Truth.

If they pass those tests, the Lord gives them their own ministries according to the spiritual gifts that they have by the New Birth. Then they can do their own part in the Church to help new believers come to the Faith and help existing believers progress and grow in the Truth. Each ministry is different, and not everyone is an apostle, prophet, pastor-teacher, or evangelist. Some of us have gifts that are not even listed in the Bible, but regardless what our gifts are, they are a spiritual ability to help other believers to get to the Truth of the Bible, either by leading them to the Gospel or helping evangelists to get to them with the Gospel or by helping them get to a pastor-teaching ministry where the believer can hear the Truth and grow spiritually. As an example, someone who is gifted as a giver would have considerable ability to discern true need and how to minister to it so that the needy can actually grow in the Truth without stumbling over the gift that they are given by the giver. Believe me, it may sound simple, but it is a very skillful thing indeed. If a giver does not know biblical truth as well as he should, he will waste his material resources in his generosity and accomplish little of spiritual value to the Lord.

Furthermore, since the Apostles and prophets were given by the Lord for providing a revelation of the Truth to the Church through the writing of the Bible (Ephesians 2:20, compare Revelation 21:14; Acts 1:8 ), they were removed from the Church after the Bible was completed. The highest officers left in the Church now are pastor-teachers (1Corinthians 12:28 ) who are responsible to interpret the Revelation that the Apostles and prophets witnessed to and left behind in the Bible for other believers. There is no new Revelation and there will not be until the Lord returns to destroy Satan's hold on the Earth and reclaim the Earth for Himself. At that time, during the Millennium, the Lord will be teaching the unresurrected directly.

So, we cannot learn the Truth without the help of pastor-teachers, but, just as you said, we cannot trust everyone who claims to be a pastor-teacher, or even an apostle or prophet to be who they claim to be unless we test them against the Scriptures. Clearly, if anyone claims to be a prophet or apostle, they lie, unless by apostle they mean missionary. As for the pastor-teacher, we simply test what they teach and see if it is consonant with the Bible. There are very few true pastor-teachers. The gift is not merely what qualifies one to teach. Like every other believer, one with a pastor-teaching gift must grow spiritually and become mature, as well as face the tests of maturity. Then, in addition, they must go through a rigorous preparation that involves learning the languages that the original Bible was written in, that is, Ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic; learning textual criticism; and learning Ancient History and Church History. These tools are critical to dealing with the lies that weak believers are constantly being harassed with, and the pastor-teacher's job is not just to feed the believer with the Truth: it is also to protect him from the many insidious lies that the enemy threatens the spiritual safety of believers with.

I'm happy to encounter you here. It's good to see that you have and do use your spiritual common sense. I encourage you to find and commit to a reliable pastor-teaching ministry, if you haven't already - and you very well may have already - and hone that common sense into a sharp tool for making your way up the Mountain that we are called to assault.

Grace be with you.

Its very unbiblical to assume you need a pastor teacher to guide you as a NT beleiver. Heb 8vs 9- 11. This is not to say that some dont have a gift of teaching but ALL will be taught of God. Like you said rightly, the offices that the apostle occupied, no man can occupied again because God used them to lay the foundation of Christianity and another foundation can no man lay again than that which is laid. So there r no new revelations as ALL revelations must conform to the written word.

Paul, Peter and John admonished beleivers to work out your own salavtion, to prove all things. Beleivers have direct access to God and can know the mind of God independent of third party. 1 john 2 vs 27. Says ...you need not that any man teach you" it's a personal relationship not corporate. It becomes a church when we all come with our heart that has already been circumcised not waiting for man to instruct you. Christian's are supposed to know what God is saying and to know the voice of God via spending time in the word and being taught of the Holy Spirit. These are not the days of the prophets were a man expounds scripture these are the days where All men can know God and expound scripture. Are some gifted in higher measure of teaching? Definately but not to the point where to fully instruct another beleiver as all beleivers if they allow God will know the voice of God fully and not need anyone to validate scripture. For instance, if I have one talent in teaching and you have 10 talents. If I utilise my 1 talent and you teach with your 10 talents, whatever you teach will be in alignment and agreement with what my 1 talent is worth.

The bible esp the NT should be the guide for any beleiver. We are all brethren and none is set higher than the other. The only office which were special were elders and deacons and these were for organisational purposes to ensure order not for commanding or directing or declaring the words of the Lord like some special being . These was allowed for the apostles because they were used by God to usher in the NT. So their words were scripture. We are to learn what has already been taught by them and pass it down through out generations without bringing in new revelations as we see today.

For instance, the doctrine of mammoth is a heavy devilish doctrine which almost all church practice but from the writings of the apsotlez, these was heavily frowned against. The beleivers were eternity minded and not carnal minded. They were not looking to be like Dangote or Otedola . They were not doing business seminars in their gathering. PAUL said in Roman's I decided not to know anything amongst you except Yeshua and Him crucified. Please dont get me wrong, I'm a successful business man but I'm waiting for The second coming. That what should be in beleivers minds not that car, or house or contract .

God did not redeem us to carnal things my friend but now all churches practically teach this. The bible teaches contentment but the 'church' teaches excesses.

You dont need teachers infact just like how the 2nd temple was destroyed and The jews dispersed that's what we have now in these last days. Christianity has been desolated and the abomination of desolation set in place as prophesied by Yeshua. He said when you see the abomination of desolation set in place know that the end is near

Do you know what d abomination that makes desolate? . Dont run after men as you have been given all thing that pertain into life and godliness. The world is evil and it's better to stand alone and make heaven than seek teachers. Yes if you find good honest ones not the ones that want God to enlarge your earthly coast and give you business expansion while you have no treasures in heaven . The ones that help you build mansions on earth but you have none in heaven. Understand that everytime Yeshua appeared in the NT it was for His kingdom advancement not to give Paul an oil exploration jobs or miracle spouse or babies . Yeshua is all spirit and He expects us not to dwell on earthly things because the earth will be destroyed all the same. So yes, that you job is not the glory or blessing of God . That your house or car is not the blessing of God. Any fool can make money. You dont even need God to make money .

Carnal minded is the 'church' of today. The abomination that makes desolate has been set as the representation of the Most High just like Zeus was set on the altar in the temple of God. We must seek out and come out from amongst them and be ye separate.

Ihedinobi3:

So, you agree that you cannot prove the claims you were making? You were only just making stuff up because you don't believe that any opposing views can be proved? If I am wrong, go on and prove what you claimed.

As for teaching you, I have not presumed to do so. If you are one of those that the Lord has led to me to be fed and tended, you would listen to me, but obviously you don't.

I don't make claims like you, I state facts.
I don't need to prove anything to you, cos I don't have the luxury of time.
You can research on your own, if you think you can disprove what I said.

Stop going defensive, kindly answer the questions I asked you. I never called out your moniker when I made my first comment here, you called me out cos you wanted to prove me wrong , so the onus is on you and not me.

You think too highly of yourself to think the Lord can lead me to you.


I don't preach the BOE, I preach the 66books cos I'm content with it, but I don't discourage people from reading the book like you've done here, cos I see no reason to do so.

There are books in the heavenly library that are not even among the books in the Bible, I know you don't know this. Maybe you need to be caught up to heaven to know this.

This is the last response you'll get from me.

gobuchinny:


Its very unbiblical to assume you need a pastor teacher to guide you as a NT beleiver. Heb 8vs 9- 11. This is not to say that some dont have a gift of teaching but ALL will be taught of God. Like you said rightly, the offices that the apostle occupied, no man can occupied again because God used them to lay the foundation of Christianity and another foundation can no man lay again than that which is laid. So there r no new revelations as ALL revelations must conform to the written word.

Paul, Peter and John admonished beleivers to work out your own salavtion, to prove all things. Beleivers have direct access to God and can know the mind of God independent of third party. 1 john 2 vs 27. Says ...you need not that any man teach you" it's a personal relationship not corporate. It becomes a church when we all come with our heart that has already been circumcised not waiting for man to instruct you. Christian's are supposed to know what God is saying and to know the voice of God via spending time in the word and being taught of the Holy Spirit. These are not the days of the prophets were a man expounds scripture these are the days where All men can know God and expound scripture. Are some gifted in higher measure of teaching? Definately but not to the point where to fully instruct another beleiver as all beleivers if they allow God will know the voice of God fully and not need anyone to validate scripture. For instance, if I have one talent in teaching and you have 10 talents. If I utilise my 1 talent and you teach with your 10 talents, whatever you teach will be in alignment and agreement with what my 1 talent is worth.

The bible esp the NT should be the guide for any beleiver. We are all brethren and none is set higher than the other. The only office which were special were elders and deacons and these were for organisational purposes to ensure order not for commanding or directing or declaring the words of the Lord like some special being . These was allowed for the apostles because they were used by God to usher in the NT. So their words were scripture. We are to learn what has already been taught by them and pass it down through out generations without bringing in new revelations as we see today.

For instance, the doctrine of mammoth is a heavy devilish doctrine which almost all church practice but from the writings of the apsotlez, these was heavily frowned against. The beleivers were eternity minded and not carnal minded. They were not looking to be like Dangote or Otedola . They were not doing business seminars in their gathering. PAUL said in Roman's I decided not to know anything amongst you except Yeshua and Him crucified. Please dont get me wrong, I'm a successful business man but I'm waiting for The second coming. That what should be in beleivers minds not that car, or house or contract .

God did not redeem us to carnal things my friend but now all churches practically teach this. The bible teaches contentment but the 'church' teaches excesses.

You dont need teachers infact just like how the 2nd temple was destroyed and The jews dispersed that's what we have now in these last days. Christianity has been desolated and the abomination of desolation set in place as prophesied by Yeshua. He said when you see the abomination of desolation set in place know that the end is near

Do you know what d abomination that makes desolate? . Dont run after men as you have been given all thing that pertain into life and godliness. The world is evil and it's better to stand alone and make heaven than seek teachers. Yes if you find good honest ones not the ones that want God to enlarge your earthly coast and give you business expansion while you have no treasures in heaven . The ones that help you build mansions on earth but you have none in heaven. Understand that everytime Yeshua appeared in the NT it was for His kingdom advancement not to give Paul an oil exploration jobs or miracle spouse or babies . Yeshua is all spirit and He expects us not to dwell on earthly things because the earth will be destroyed all the same. So yes, that you job is not the glory or blessing of God . That your house or car is not the blessing of God. Any fool can make money. You dont even need God to make money .

Carnal minded is the 'church' of today. The abomination that makes desolate has been set as the representation of the Most High just like Zeus was set on the altar in the temple of God. We must seek out and come out from amongst them and be ye separate.

First of all, I actually quoted a Bible passage, so how is what I said unbiblical? Did I misrepresent what that part of the Bible said? Did Paul not say there that the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, and the pastor-teacher are all given by the Lord "for the equipping of the saints for the works of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ?" This is actually what Ephesians 4:11-13 says. I did not make it up. I only repeated it in different words. So, your claim is false.

Second, is it your way to look at two Scriptures and prefer one to the other when you think that they disagree? The Scriptures cannot be broken, so Hebrews 8 cannot disagree with Ephesians 4. The question is how they are both true. On the one hand, the Holy Spirit is the Giver of the Gifts and the Empowerer of all of our Service to the Body, so it is really He Who is teaching through the pastor-teacher to the degree that the pastor-teacher diligently yields himself to Him. On the other hand, the prophecy of Hebrews 8 applies in full to the Millennium when the Lord Jesus Himself will be teaching Israel the Truth without any mediators, and the Millennium is only possible because of the Covenant that the Lord Jesus made for us in His Blood.

Third, what is the point of anyone having the gift of teaching, as you admit that some of us do, if we are not to be guided by teachers?

Fourth, what revelations must conform to the written Word if you agree that there are no new revelations? Either there are new revelations that must conform to the written Word just as the New Testament conformed to the Old or else there are no new revelations at all. Which are you claiming to be the case?

Fifth, Paul did tell us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but I don't see how diligently listening to and obeying reliable teachers of the Truth as he also instructs us to do in Hebrews 13:17 is not the same as working out our Salvation with fear and trembling. Diligently accessing Bible teaching whether by listening to it or reading it or watching it in a video and comparing it to the Scriptures and believing what we are shown by the Scriptures to be true is work. It is the work we are called to do by the Lord (John 6:29; 1 Peter 2:2).

Sixth, clearly John himself was teaching the believers that he was writing to, so he could not have meant that they didn't need to be taught at all. Again, he is actually saying quite clearly that since he is writing to believers, they are not people who need to be taught that Jesus is the Christ. They already knew that. If they didn't, they wouldn't be believers and he wouldn't be writing to them. So, this is not at all a teaching that we don't need teachers.

Seventh, you are right that it is a personal relationship. That is a big part of having a free will. But we are a "called-out assembly," that is, an ekklesia, and as both the Lord and His Apostles taught us (see John 15; 1 Corinthians 12; and the teachings of the Lord's Supper), this assembly is a single unit with various functioning parts that are needed for the mutual building up of one another to full maturity. We all have a choice whether to do our part in helping each other grow spiritually and produce for the Lord and in receiving such help or not to. That is the sense in which it is a personal relationship: we each make our own choices about spiritual growth and production. It does not mean that we are expected to walk the spiritual walk alone. It does not mean that we are not to use our spiritual gifts to help each other.

Eighth, as for your claims about what these days are and the differing measures of gifts, I see nothing of the sort in the Bible.

Ninth, the Bible IS our guide, and it teaches us to submit to gifted and prepared pastor-teachers in order to grow up spiritually and become able to fulfill our own ministries in the Body. It also teaches us to test each pastor-teacher by comparing what he teaches to what is written in the Bible before trusting him with our spiritual well-being. As for elders (and bishops and overseers) in the New Testament, that is what the Bible called pastor-teachers (Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:1-3; Hebrews 13:17). You are also exactly right that we are simply to learn what the Apostles taught, but the right people to learn that from are pastor-teachers.

Tenth, there are false teachers abroad. There have always been. There were false prophets too even before the First Advent. There were false teachers in Apostles' Day as well. None of that means that we ought not to learn from pastor-teachers. It just means that we have to persevere in looking for gifted and prepared ones until the Lord brings us to them. If we are to avoid submitting to pastor-teachers because there are many who claim to be pastor-teachers who are only teaching lies, then the Corinthians were right to stop listening to Paul because they were being troubled by false "super-apostles" as they were called, and the Pharisees were right to reject the Lord Jesus because there were so many false Messiahs showing up and misleading the people. This is obviously wrong. We are commanded to test and prove all things and hold fast that which is good. If someone claims to be a pastor-teacher, test him and see if he is really one. If he is not, get away from him. If he is, settle in and receive spiritual nourishment and protection from him. That is the right way to deal with things, not to reject pastor-teachers altogether. That is not the biblical way.

Eleventh, as I said above, although we are many, we are one Body, and we have different gifts that are supposed to be used to build each other up spiritually. I know no part of the Bible that teaches either that we don't need teachers or that Christianity has been desolated at all. That is one of those things that you are unilaterally making up with no biblical proof.

Twelfth, the Bible is supposed to be our guide, as you said. Still, it would seem that you couldn't care less that it teaches us not to stand alone but to diligently seek the Truth, that is, to learn from those whom the Lord has by Himself gifted and prepared for the work of teaching believers the Truth so that they can grow to maturity and become able to fulfill their ministries in the Body of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that it is better to stand alone than to seek teachers. It does say that it is a sign of the wickedness of the last days that people reject sound teaching and prefer to collect around them multitude teachers to tell them what they want to hear. Quite often, that is exactly what those who claim to stand alone do: they read all manners of things written by all kinds of people with all kinds of agenda, and then they get puffed up with their pseudo-knowledge and begin to throw their weight around as teachers, leading everyone who is foolish enough to listen to them into terrible error and even apostasy (2 Timothy 3:1-9, 13; 4:3-4).

Now, I will tell you something that I hope that you will hear. I could be wrong, because the heart of man is very deceitful, but I think that you may be willing to respond to the Truth. You clearly understand that something is violently wrong with the church visible. That is a great step forward for you. To own that the churches and self-appointed shepherds in the churches today have a completely different agenda than the Great Shepherd Himself is the beginning of coming out from the spiritually near-dead assemblies that dot the face of the Earth. But when you actually leave them, you must seek for those who can teach you the Truth. It is impossible to grow spiritually and become strong enough to do your own part in the Church without proper spiritual nutrition, and that is the job of pastor-teachers: to feed you and protect you when you come out of those vile places where the wolves are consuming the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-10). Gifted and prepared pastor-teachers exist. Although they are very few and far between, the Lord makes one available every time someone is willing to drop their arrogance and learn the Truth. But you have to actually demonstrate the willingness to learn from one by actually actively seeking them. I have seen for myself that when someone is unwilling to learn, the very gift of a pastor-teacher is wasted on them. In fact, pastor-teachers typically learn that it is best to stop offering their services and just take themselves out of the way to some place where anyone who actually wants to learn can find them.

No true pastor-teacher is in it for the money or the notoriety. They don't care to be visible. Theirs is a very sensitive job, and it is one that must be done with the utmost care. Failure carries a huge loss with it and major repercussions from the Lord. So, you will not soon find a pastor-teacher taking your trust in him lightly. If you will hear what I am saying, take the next step and actually submit to someone whom the Lord has prepared to help you become able to withstand the pressures of this war until the Lord returns for us.

Praivit0:



I don't make claims like you, I state facts.
I don't need to prove anything to you, cos I don't have the luxury of time.
You can research on your own, if you think you can disprove what I said.

Stop going defensive, kindly answer the questions I asked you. I never called out your moniker when I made my first comment here, you called me out cos you wanted to prove me wrong , so the onus is on you and not me.

You think too highly of yourself to think the Lord can lead me to you.


I don't preach the BOE, I preach the 66books cos I'm content with it, but I don't discourage people from reading the book like you've done here, cos I see no reason to do so.

There are books in the heavenly library that are not even among the books in the Bible, I know you don't know this. Maybe you need to be caught up to heaven to know this.

This is the last response you'll get from me.

You're the sort that I am often tempted to laugh at. You state facts? Indeed! Where? Wherever you made a big claim, they become facts, because it was the great Praivit0 who made them.

The only reason that I bother with people like you is because of the nature of this field. Lots of people come through here who are looking for Truth, then people like you who pretend to have something to do with it only deceive them so that they stumble in their walk with the Lord. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be talking to you.

As for calling you out, that was very uncharacteristic of me, but I did it because of your claim to stick with what is truly inspired. Why do you bother to stick up for words that essentially claim to come from God when they do not? Did you not read Revelation 22:18 or Jeremiah 14:14 in your own 66 books? Do you not care at all that when you pretend to this "humility" that you do, you put those who are weak in Faith at risk? There has never been a time in the history of man when warning negated free will. So, warning people not to treat something as the Word of God when it is not has never stopped anyone who wanted to go on and do so from doing so anyway. But it is always easier to just not care to warn the sheep that the Lord loves and has put in your charge. When you attack a shepherd for doing what you won't or when you make it more difficult for them to, then you certainly are not helping at all, and you can be sure that the Lord is not pleased.

As for disproving you, I already gave my answer in the post you quoted attacking me. You could have answered my own arguments there. I did put in my research there.

As for the heavenly library, I suppose you were expecting to impress me with your great knowledge. That is what I thoroughly dislike about people like you.

MuttleyLaff:


Empiree, that your Alfa ti oni irugbọ preacher is dishonest, misleading and not sincere. It is called "ẹsin onigbagbọ" and it never is called "ẹlẹsin ikeji", "ẹsin keji" nor "esin olodi keji". Stop the deceit. What have you to gain in posting this trash video here.
No wonder, what you practice is called "esin imale" meaning, the difficult hard and forced religion. Now dont ever again show your face on this thread with such rubbish. I spit on what you posted

Onigbagbo simply means BELIEVERS. You can as well call Buddhists, Jewish, Hindus, Shintoists, sikhis, zoroastrian, alawo etc believers too. They believe all in something. Anyways, the Alfa has spoken the truth. Take it or leave it

Ihedinobi3:

First of all, I actually quoted a Bible passage, so how is what I said unbiblical? Did I misrepresent what that part of the Bible said? Did Paul not say there that the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, and the pastor-teacher are all given by the Lord "for the equipping of the saints for the works of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ?" This is actually what Ephesians 4:11-13 says. I did not make it up. I only repeated it in different words. So, your claim is false.

Second, is it your way to look at two Scriptures and prefer one to the other when you think that they disagree? The Scriptures cannot be broken, so Hebrews 8 cannot disagree with Ephesians 4. The question is how they are both true. On the one hand, the Holy Spirit is the Giver of the Gifts and the Empowerer of all of our Service to the Body, so it is really He Who is teaching through the pastor-teacher to the degree that the pastor-teacher diligently yields himself to Him. On the other hand, the prophecy of Hebrews 8 applies in full to the Millennium when the Lord Jesus Himself will be teaching Israel the Truth without any mediators, and the Millennium is only possible because of the Covenant that the Lord Jesus made for us in His Blood.

Third, what is the point of anyone having the gift of teaching, as you admit that some of us do, if we are not to be guided by teachers?

Fourth, what revelations must conform to the written Word if you agree that there are no new revelations? Either there are new revelations that must conform to the written Word just as the New Testament conformed to the Old or else there are no new revelations at all. Which are you claiming to be the case?

Fifth, Paul did tell us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but I don't see how diligently listening to and obeying reliable teachers of the Truth as he also instructs us to do in Hebrews 13:17 is not the same as working out our Salvation with fear and trembling. Diligently accessing Bible teaching whether by listening to it or reading it or watching it in a video and comparing it to the Scriptures and believing what we are shown by the Scriptures to be true is work. It is the work we are called to do by the Lord (John 6:29; 1 Peter 2:2).

Sixth, clearly John himself was teaching the believers that he was writing to, so he could not have meant that they didn't need to be taught at all. Again, he is actually saying quite clearly that since he is writing to believers, they are not people who need to be taught that Jesus is the Christ. They already knew that. If they didn't, they wouldn't be believers and he wouldn't be writing to them. So, this is not at all a teaching that we don't need teachers.

Seventh, you are right that it is a personal relationship. That is a big part of having a free will. But we are a "called-out assembly," that is, an ekklesia, and as both the Lord and His Apostles taught us (see John 15; 1 Corinthians 12; and the teachings of the Lord's Supper), this assembly is a single unit with various functioning parts that are needed for the mutual building up of the each other to full maturity. We all have a choice whether to do our part in helping each other grow spiritually and produce for the Lord and in receiving such help or not to. That is the sense in which it is a personal relationship: we each make our own choices about spiritual growth and production. It does not mean that we are expected to walk the spiritual walk alone. It does not mean that we are not to use our spiritual gifts to help each other.

Eighth, as for your claims about what these days are and the differing measures of gifts, I see nothing of the sort in the Bible.

Ninth, the Bible IS our guide, and it teaches us to submit to gifted and prepared pastor-teachers in order to grow up spiritually and become able to fulfill our own ministries in the Body. It also teaches us to test each pastor-teacher by comparing what he teaches to what is written in the Bible before trusting him with our spiritual well-being. As for elders (and bishops and overseers) in the New Testament, that is what the Bible called pastor-teachers (Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:1-3; Hebrews 13:17). You are exactly right that we are simply to learn what the Apostles taught. The right people to learn that from are pastor-teachers.

Tenth, there are false teachers abroad. There have always been. There were false prophets too even before the First Advent. There were false teachers in Apostles' Day as well. None of that means that we ought not to learn from pastor-teachers. It just means that we have to persevere in looking for gifted and prepared ones until the Lord brings us to them. If we are to avoid submitting to pastor-teachers because there are many who claim to be pastor-teachers who are only teaching lies, then the Corinthians were right to stop listening to Paul because they were being troubled by false "super-apostles" as they were called, and the Pharisees were right to reject the Lord Jesus because there were so many false Messiahs showing up and misleading the people. This is obviously wrong. We are commanded to test and prove all things and hold fast that which is good. If someone claims to be a pastor-teacher, test him and see if he is really one. If he is not, get away from him. If he is, settle in and receive spiritual nourishment and protection from him. That is the right way to deal with things, not to reject pastor-teachers altogether. That is not the biblical way.

Eleventh, as I said above, although we are many, we are one Body, and we have different gifts that are supposed to be used to build each other up spiritually. I know no part of the Bible that teaches either that we don't need teachers or that Christianity has been desolated at all. That is one of those things that you are unilaterally making up with no biblical proof.

Twelfth, the Bible is supposed to be our guide, as you said. Still, it would seem that you couldn't care less that it teaches us not to stand alone but to diligently seek the Truth, that is, to learn from those whom the Lord has by Himself gifted and prepared for the work of teaching believers the Truth so that they can grow go maturity and become able to fulfill their ministries in the Body of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that it is better to stand alone than to seek teachers. It does say that it is a sign of the wickedness of the last days that people reject sound teaching and prefer to collect around them multitude teachers to tell them what they want to hear. Quite often, that is exactly what those who claim to stand alone do: they read all manners of things written by all kinds of people with all kinds of agenda, and then they get puffed up with their pseudo-knowledge and begin to throw their weight around as teachers, leading everyone who is foolish enough to listen to them into terrible error and even apostasy (2 Timothy 3:1-9, 13; 4:3-4).

Now, I will tell you something that I hope that you will hear. I could be wrong, because the heart of man is very deceitful, but I think that you may be willing to respond to the Truth. You clearly understand that something is violently wrong with the church visible. That is a great step forward for you. To own that the churches and self-appointed shepherds in the churches today have a completely different agenda than the Great Shepherd Himself is the beginning of coming out from the spiritually near-dead assemblies that dot the face of the Earth. But when you actually leave them, you must seek for those who can teach you the Truth. It is impossible to grow spiritually and become strong enough to do your own part in the Church without proper spiritual nutrition, and that is the job of pastor-teachers: to feed you and protect you when you come out of those vile places where the wolves are consuming the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-10). Gifted and prepared pastor-teachers exist. Although they are very few and far between, the Lord makes one available every time someone is willing to drop their arrogance and learn the Truth. But you have to actually demonstrate the willingness to learn from one by actually actively seeking them. I have seen for myself that when someone is unwilling to learn, the very gift of a pastor-teacher is wasted on them. In fact, pastor-teachers typically learn that it is best to stop offering their services and just take themselves out of the way to some place where anyone who actually wants to learn can find them.

No true pastor-teacher is in it for the money or the notoriety. They don't care to be visible. Theirs is a very sensitive job, and it is one that must be done with the utmost care. Failure carries a huge loss with it and major repercussions from the Lord. So, you will not soon find a pastor-teacher taking your trust in him lightly. If you will hear what I am saying, take the next step and actually submit to someone whom the Lord has prepared to help you become able to withstand the pressures of this war until the Lord returns for us.

Firstly you r rong saying that elders are same as pastor/teachers . Elder is by election as any man can desire that role as explained by Paul but a teacher/pastor is a gift of the Holy Spirit like every other gift. Again, you r wrong placing a pastor/teacher as the watchman over the flock whereas the elder is actually the watchman by way of experience as seen in Act 20.

You are right as I agree that they r people who have the gift of expounding scriptures but my brother there is no where in the NT that states that you r subject to them in fact it's the elders that you r subject to because they acted as church leaders. The bible rather teaches us to be subject to one another and submit to one another. God can also bring His word through any beleiver in the congregation and if your pastor/teachers are the only ones speaking everytime then you r not in the true church. The pastor/teacher was not placed as an overseer but the elders. Besides it's not psstor/teacher but pastor and teachers, two different gifts of the spirit. Not all are called to be teachers but all are called to be taught by God through the word.

Besides, there is no where In the NT where it states that you cannot grow without a man teaching you scripture . All you need is the sincere milk of the word which is the Bible and a willing heart. The new covenant states that All will be taught of God. John telling them that they need not that any man teach them was In reference to many false teachers. He told them that they know all things because they have already been taught. Haven't we already been taught by the bible? Dont we know all things from scriptures? So whatever any other person says will be in conformity with the word. The church is not a place where on teacher talks everytime. NO SIR. We r all brethren and all priests and Kings. Your teacher is not your Oracle. He too needs to be sat down and taught.

I agree it important to hear a gifted teacher to further expound the word but that teacher is not your lifeline. I dont go around seeking one bro and am at my best place spiritually. Its expected of christains to grow and there is nothing He wants to say that the Holy Spirit cannot teach you.

I dont think you sought after the God on your own because everybody that did so sincerely in scripture found Him . Y didnt you until you found your pastor? What you stated my friend makes me worry . Because Yeshua is light. And he that dwelleth in light CANNOT be in darkness. Where I am now bro is a place of zero confusion because the word is my guide. Forget about the Book of Enoch or Jasher because you guys killing these books cannot bring one verse that contradicts the bible instead you sit in your place of authority shooting down what you haven't read?.In all these things if your pastor doesn't teach you not to love this world nor to be carnality minded them you haven't started to know the real Christ. Because now, everybody is seeking God to enhance their lives or career. But we are to be dead to this world. That's all that matters bro. Forget greek and hebrew translation, the KJV is enough for the Spirit.

You dont need anyone to break down any words in greek or hebrew before you understand the scriptures . All the teachings have already been done because the WHOLE GOSPEL has been taught so what is new. What we need is the Holy Spirit to teach us not your pastor or teacher . If you have one then great but if you dont, forget it. These is not the old testament where God is giving you pastors after His own heart but this is the NT where God resides in you and will teach you himself with the word as a guide. We are to be brought to remembrance of the teachings of the apostles so I really dont know what your pastor teacher will teacher. Teach you how to read?

The teacher and pastor r like any other ministry gift, nothing special. So let me ask you. If your teacher teaches, then who teaches him? We are to admonish ourselves as Paul stated in Corinthains and other epistles. Dont get me wrong, teachers are needed but just like prophets, apostles, and the other gifts. We are not to seek them like our lives depends on them. We are all sons and are capable of understanding scriptures. I agree that all should not teach because teacher have a higher query before God as we understand from scripture.

Think about it, why didnt Paul seek after the apostles immediately after conversion? Teachers are good but camping with the Holy spirit and your KJV is the best my man esp in these days were the true church is hard to decipher .

Peace to you.

This thread is increasingly turning into a circus in play
Like as if one or two clowns arent already enough, now we have an Empiree another clown come join in

Ihedinobi3:

You are exactly right that the enemy's strategy is to attack the Truth. The Truth is the only way that he can be beaten in this world. That is precisely the reason that Satan looks to adulterate it with intrusions and lies like your books of Jasher and Enoch and the long endings of Mark 16 that your brother-in-arms is losing his mind over. This is why pastor-teachers have the responsibility to learn the original languages in which the Bible was written as well as Ancient and Church Histories and textual criticism, so that they can figure out exactly what the original text is.

As for how men have corrupted the Truth and ignored it and formed denominations that are largely antagonistic to the Truth, I agree that that is the case. That is why although I was born into the Methodist Church and had a Roman Catholic heritage and early exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses and later exposure to various Pentecostal traditions, I don't go to a typical church now. I study under the pastor-teacher in charge of https://ichthys.com, and life has never been better. I happen to know from the Scriptures that that is how spiritual growth to maturity and production for the Lord works: by submitting to someone who possesses both the gift and the necessary preparation for teaching the Truth. You will find this in Ephesians 4, in Paul's admonitions to Timothy, in the examples of the Old Covenant where the priests were tasked with teaching God's Word to the people and the prophets taught anyone who would listen to them what the Lord was saying.

I reacted to the madness in the church visible much as many of us today, obviously including you, do: by deciding to be my own teacher. That is the path to incredible arrogance where you think you know something, but in fact you are incredibly ignorant and very loudly so too. I was there for a few years before the Lord had mercy upon me and led me to a gifted and prepared Bible teacher who could answer all my questions and equip me to read the Bible correctly and begin to see the answers for myself.

Between you and me, I think it is beyond doubt who is being lied to and who believes a load of errors. There is very little that you have said here that has any kind of truth in it. You know almost nothing of what the Bible actually says or what the history is, but you make so much of your own knowledge. I am not afraid of being faced with the Bible or the history, because I know exactly what the Truth is. I can also see where and when I'm in error because I've come to appreciate what the Truth really looks like. Have you?

My man everything I said here is scripture as regards carnality and the church infact you know nothing of scripture to feel that a NT beleiver needs a teacher to grow . That is a lie form hell brother. Hebrew 1 bs1-2. In the past God spoke through the prophets but in this days He spoke through the son. The word of the Son are in black and white. The Apostles has taught All the counsel of God as stated in the NT. SO what exactly is your teacher teaching? It's a crime to distort scripture which is what you have done to say no none can grow without been taught. That my friend is a lie of passion . You r all talk no scripture. If you desperately need a teacher what about the prophet, apostles, evangelist...named before pastors and teachers? Didnt you seek them also. That's y u r so confused because men teach you. You beleive in a verse from a book quoted by Peter n Jude yet you dont beleive the book . Show me one verse that contradicts the bible. Ain't we to test ALL spirits first? How did you jump into conclusion? Let me guess. Your man god told you so you wont think for urself.

In fact if you ask me friend, if you say apostles are done away with then more for the teachers. What r they teaching? To read the bible that is clear? ALL the counsel of God has been packaged in the book so what exactly r u saying? Its fear of man that is your greatest snare. You r afraid to trust God so you chase men . Hence when you were supposed to be alone with Yahweh like Paul you were chasing breakthrough and miracles so how do you expect to hear God. Then you ran after your godteacher.

The bible is enough to navigate us if we are serious with God. If we die to this world and hate this world. If we deny ourselves and carry our cross everyday and follow Him. He won't deny Himself. He said, He that hath my comandment and doeth them, he it is that loves me and He that loves me, I will love and manifest myself to him . Why didnt He manifests himself to you because you were not seeking Him for who He is but for your carnal needs. NO you wont find Him then your teacher comes to finally brainwash you. In sure you cant question your teacher . Just like how you need teachers, then you should look for your godprophet, godevangelist...abi na only teacher pastor you see for that Eph 4 .

Bros my last comment with you. You are more confused than I thought. Just negodu saying you cannot grow without a man .

Between the mistake you making is this. We are not our own teacher but the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. Not your godman but the Holyspirt. So I'm not reacting to the church by being my own teacher, but the Holy Spirit which is all I need is my teacher.

If you dont know the abomination that maketh desolate which even our Lord Yeshua spoke about and Daniel then truly you dont know any truth but what your teacher tells you. You are just wandering round in circle chasing your tails .

No offense bro I'm done commenting unless you ofcourse raise issue on the BOE or Jasher that we can all hear speak and put to test and I will apologize if the Spirit behind the books is examined here and proved evil if not please just keep quiet.

Peace to you

Empiree:
Onigbagbo simply means BELIEVERS. You can as well call Buddhists, Jewish, Hindus, Shintoists, sikhis, zoroastrian, alawo etc believers too. They believe all in something. Anyways, the Alfa has spoken the truth. Take it or leave it

"And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)"
- Acts 5:14

I am pleased that you accept and agree that "onigbagbọ" simply means BELIEVER and not the shockingly bad and unnecessary excessive lie that shameless Alfa told, saying that it is called "ẹlẹsin ikeji", (i.e. follower of the second religion) The Alfa trying very hard to mislead also called it "ẹsin keji" (i.e. the second religion.) He then in a way to further give a more wrong idea and impression of what believer means called it "ẹsin olodi keji" (i.e. the opposing and countered second religion) Smh

Empiree, fyi, there is nothing among believers called or known as "ẹsin keji" (i.e. the second religion) nor "ẹsin olodi keji" (i.e. the opposing and countered second religion)

Empiree, that person who is persuaded of the truth and reality of our Lord Jesus Christ are called and/or known as believers, period. Such believer believes every word that proceeded from Jesus' mouth and obeys the commands of Jesus Christ.

Empiree, the wayward muslim pikin wey no gree receive good training from home, nah for outside hin go return get educated proper. Now read and learn. Buddhist, is a follower of the religion based on the teachings of Buddha. Jewish, has to do with ancestry traced back to the Biblical patriarchs such as Abraham, his son Isaac, Isaac's son Jacob, and the Biblical matriarchs such as Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, and Rachel.

Hindu, is about the ancient religion with Indian origins whose characteristics include the worship of many gods. Hindu, as a matter of fact, is not originally an Indian word. It is a word given by the Greeks, to refer to the land and peoples beyond the Indus (or Sindhu) River.

Shintoists are followers of the Japanese religion that involves the worship of ancestors, nature spirits and a belief in sacred power in both animate and inanimate things. It was the state religion of Japan until 1945

Sikhs are followers who believe in reincarnation and karma concepts found in Buddhism, Hinduism

Zoroastrian is a follower of an omniscient but not omnipotent god.

Alawo is an adherent of ATR.

Empiree, yes, its true they all believe in something, but the sixty-four-dollar question now is, what do they believe, do they believe in Jesus Christ? Do they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, etcetera lol. There is a distinction(s) Empiree, lol. "Ọdun Agẹmọ, o yatọ si, Hallowen party" lol. Anyways, the Alfa has spoken the lies straight up from dark abyss of the pit of hell. Take your trash with you, dont park it or leave it here.

MuttleyLaff:
"And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)"
- Acts 5:14

I am pleased that you accept and agree that "onigbagbọ" simply means BELIEVER and not the shockingly bad and unnecessary excessive lie that shameless Alfa told, saying that it is called "ẹlẹsin ikeji", (i.e. follower of the second religion) "ẹsin keji" (i.e. the second religion) and/or "ẹsin olodi keji" (i.e. the opposing and countered second religion)

You did not understand what he said. He didn't say Christians called themselves "Elesin keji". He said some Alfas called them Elesin keji which is wrong and creates wrong impression for some weak Muslims.

Saying Elesin keji is not peculiar. Maybe you just heard first time. Although, saying Elesin keji is understood in context but in this day and age it is creating wrong impression that God favors more than one religion. Religion with God is Islam (Sura Al-Imran verse 19)

MuttleyLaff:
"[b]
Emp.iree, fyi, there is nothing among believers called or known as "[i]ẹsin keji" (i.e. the second religion) nor "ẹsin olodi keji" (i.e. the opposing and countered second religion)

Empi.ree, that person who is persuaded of the truth and reality of our Lord Jesus Christ are called and/or known as believers, period. Such believer believes every word that proceeded from Jesus' mouth and obeys the commands of Jesus Christ.

Empi.ree, the wayward muslim pikin wey no gree receive good training from home, nah for outside hin go return get educated proper. Now read and learn. Buddhist, is a follower of the religion based on the teachings of Buddha. Jewish, has to do with ancestry traced back to the Biblical patriarchs such as Abraham, his son Isaac, Isaac's son Jacob, and the Biblical matriarchs such as Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, and Rachel.

Hindu, is about the ancient religion with Indian origins whose characteristics include the worship of many gods. Hindu, as a matter of fact, is not originally an Indian word. It is a word given by the Greeks, to refer to the land and peoples beyond the Indus (or Sindhu) River.

Shintoists are followers of the Japanese religion that involves the worship of ancestors, nature spirits and a belief in sacred power in both animate and inanimate things. It was the state religion of Japan until 1945

Sikhs are followers who believe in reincarnation and karma concepts found in Buddhism, Hinduism

Zoroastrian is a follower of an omniscient but not omnipotent god.

Alawo is an adherent of ATR.

Empiree, yes, its true they all believe in something, but the sixty-four-dollar question now is, what do they believe, do they believe in Jesus Christ? Do they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, etcetera lol. There is a distinction(s) Empiree, lol. "Ọdun Agẹmọ, o yatọ si, Hallowen party" lol. Anyways, the Alfa has spoken the lies straight up from dark abyss of the pit of hell. Take your trash with you, dont park it or leave it here.

check backgrounds of these religions you mentioned, they are called "monotheistic faiths".

CHRISTIANs claimed monotheism for itself as well. They are all guilty of the very same polytheism including Christianity.

Islam is distinctly different from all of them which means there is no monotheism anywhere, any religion except in Islam. You worship Jesus.

Empiree:
You did not understand what he said. He didn't say Christians called themselves "Elesin keji". He said some Alfas called them Elesin keji which is wrong and creates wrong impression for some weak Muslims.

Saying Elesin keji is not peculiar. Maybe you just heard first time. Although, saying Elesin keji is understood in context but in this day and age it is creating wrong impression that God favors more than one religion. Religion with God is Islam (Sura Al-Imran verse 19)

Oh I heard, I heard him right, I heard him loud and clear. It actually is you, who didnt hear him right nor understood what he said. Fyi, he said his fellow Alfas, call what believers follow "ẹsin keji" (i.e. the second religion) and that some of the Alfas even call it "ẹsin olodi keji" (i.e. the opposing and countered second religion)

Empiree, this is like déjà vu, you know. It is not the first time and wouldnt be the last that outsiders, give names to believers, lol. Antioch and the people of Antioch, well known for inventing and ascribing nicknames, gave the believers, the belittling, disrespectful, derogatory and contemptuous christian epithet used as a term of insult and abuse. So my dear muslim Empiree friend, there is nothing new under the sun.

Empiree, you've had your money's worth circus fare and fun, playing the court jester, now please run along like a good mummy's bwoy, dont pass go, dont collect $200, just straightaway get the hell out of this thread and dont come back. You didnt even pay sef nor had an invite, you just "jawando" gate crashed the thread, as if, like goat wey no get rope tied for hin neck

Empiree:
check backgrounds of these religions you mentioned, [s]they are called "monotheistic faiths"[/s].
CHRISTIANs claimed monotheism for itself as well. [s]They are all guilty of the very same polytheism including Christianity[/s].
[s]Islam is distinctly different from all of them which means there is no monotheism anywhere, any religion except in Islam[/s].
You worship Jesus

"This is the most important," Jesus answered:
Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is One."
- Mark 12:29

"⁵In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
⁶Who, being in very nature a God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage;
⁷rather, He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
- Philippians 2:5-7

Empiree, you like most of your poor ill-informed throngs of muslim brother friends have slipped on a banana skin. O ma se ooo. What a pity. Peele, sorry, lol

[img]https://s3/images/OutNowJesusjnr.gif[/img]
Now, can't someone already just please march out Empiree with his poisonous claws and fangs contribution from this thread ni?

MuttleyLaff:


"This is the most important," Jesus answered:
Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is One."
- Mark 12:29

"⁵In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
⁶Who, being in very nature a God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage;
⁷rather, He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
- Philippians 2:5-7

You considered Jesus co-equal partner with God. This is in conflict with another verse of your Bible. I see clearly your problem. You Christians don't understand English language despite speaking English.

This is where your problem is

"The Lord Our God.

Jesus is included in OUR. If you disagree, then you have problem with this Bible verses (attachment) which made it clear that Jesus is not co-equal with God

Empiree:
You considered Jesus co-equal partner with God. This is in conflict with another verse of your Bible. I see clearly your problem. You Christians don't understand English language despite speaking English.

This is where your problem is

"The Lord Our God.

Jesus is included in OUR. If you disagree, then you have problem with this Bible verses (attachment) which made it clear that Jesus is not co-equal with God

Empiree, I know the problem my fellow muslim brothers and especially you have, so I'll assist you on the road to an ephiphany with this question, I trust you'll, unlike that dishonest Alfa, truthfully and sincerely answer it. Here it is Empiree:
Do you believe, accept and agree that, it is not hard or impossible for God, or for your sake, for Allah, to simultaneously be in heaven and on earth at the same time? Lol

We will revert back to your attachment and help you undo your confusion, after you've responded to the question, lol

gobuchinny:


Firstly you r rong saying that elders are same as pastor/teachers . Elder is by election as any man can desire that role as explained by Paul but a teacher/pastor is a gift of the Holy Spirit like every other gift. Again, you r wrong placing a pastor/teacher as the watchman over the flock whereas the elder is actually the watchman by way of experience as seen in Act 20.

​1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV)

Verse 2 in NASB reads:

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach.

That is, Paul said, "if anyone wants to lead the church of God, that is a good desire, but he must be able to teach, that is, he must possess the gift of teaching in order to be able to teach, or else he cannot lead the church."

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
(KJV) 1 Timothy 5:17

In the NASB, the above reads as follows:

17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
1 Timothy 5:17 NASB

That is, Paul said that elders are supposed to be working hard at the Word and teaching it, and if they are, they are worthy of double honor.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(KJV) Acts 20:28

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
(KJV) John 21:15-17

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
(KJV) Acts 6:2-4

​1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
(KJV) 1 Peter 5:1-3

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby
(KJV) 1 Peter 2:2

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 3:2

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(KJV) Hebrews 5:12-14

That is, just like Peter, elders are supposed to "feed" the Lord's Flock with the milk and the strong meat of the Word depending on their spiritual development. We also see that this "feeding" is called "ministry of the Word" and "laboring in the Word" and "teaching." This is what the Bible actually says, not some idea anyone may pull out of their uninspired head.

The elder was the teacher. He was not elected to any office. You cannot see anything about election in the passages above. He was selected to be an elder if he had the gift of teaching and met the other requirements that Paul laid down for Timothy. Each church could have more than one pastor-teacher, that is true, but there is no rule at all in the Bible that that was always to be the case. In fact, considering Timothy's authority and other examples in the Bible, it seems to make sense to expect that a pastor-teaching ministry is not a team affair. Paul told Timothy to be careful to select the men whom he trained for the teaching ministry (2 Timothy 2:2) and to be careful to teach authoritatively, not in committee. So, while a church that loves the Truth could be served by multiple pastor-teachers, the reality often is that the church visible is a mixed multitude, so the pastor-teacher has to be careful to keep his teaching untainted by others who may not respect the Truth as he does. As a result, many times, pastor-teaching ministries are run solo whether in a physical assembly or "out in the wilderness."

So, I cannot agree with you that the elder was not a pastor-teacher. In fact, what made him an elder was that he was a believer with a teaching gift who was also able to pastor or shepherd (both words mean the same thing) the Church. It is because he can use his teaching gift to pastor that he leads the church. Women who have the same gift, for example, are not allowed to pastor because pastoring is exercising spiritual authority over others (1 Timothy 2:12-13). This is only allowed to men.

gobuchinny:
You are right as I agree that they r people who have the gift of expounding scriptures but my brother there is no where in the NT that states that you r subject to them in fact it's the elders that you r subject to because they acted as church leaders. The bible rather teaches us to be subject to one another and submit to one another. God can also bring His word through any beleiver in the congregation and if your pastor/teachers are the only ones speaking everytime then you r not in the true church. The pastor/teacher was not placed as an overseer but the elders. Besides it's not psstor/teacher but pastor and teachers, two different gifts of the spirit. Not all are called to be teachers but all are called to be taught by God through the word.

About not being subject to teachers because they are not church leaders, see my discussion above. In short, you couldn't lead the church unless you had a teaching gift and had matured spiritually and had been adequately prepared for the job. So, when Hebrews 13:17 commands us to submit to our leaders, it is actually commanding us to submit to teaching authority.

As for submitting to one another, as I said to you, we are together as one Body to build each other up. So, although the pastor-teacher exercises doctrinal authority over other believers, he also depends on other believers for other things that he cannot necessarily do for himself. For example, a pastor-teacher is always in need of encouragement. His is often a lonely work and he is often a shield for other believers so that the enemy focuses his attacks on him more than on anybody else around him (Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31). For this reason, he ought not to be shy to ask for and depend on other believers for prayers (Hebrews 13:18, for example). That is how we submit to one another: by allowing them to help us with their own gifts.

As for God bringing His Word through just anyone, where does the Bible say this? What I do see in the Bible is this:

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40

That is, in the assembly, only what is good for building up believers in the Truth is what is allowed, and only in order. Who decides what is edifying in the assembly? That is the pastor-teacher or the elder. In other words, only if the pastor-teacher is confident that one is a reliable student of the Truth and a worthy person will he allow such a person to make an input in the assembly that will not cause harm to others there.

As for the issue of whether a pastor is a different thing from a teacher, do you see this anywhere in the Bible? As I said above, the pastor-teacher pastors God's Flock with his teaching gift.

As for whether everyone is called to be taught by the Lord, of course we are. But the Bible is clear that believers of the Church Age are to grow with each other's help, with Apostles, prophets, pastor-teachers, and evangelists specially instituted to oversee this growth (Ephesians 4:11-16). If we are to learn directly from the Lord in this Age without the mediation of one another, then we ought not to even have a Bible or even need an evangelist to proclaim the Gospel in order to be saved, ought we? Why should we need apostles and prophets to write the Scriptures or evangelists to tell us of the Gospel if we don't need pastor-teachers to learn the Truth systematically and mature spiritually?

gobuchinny:
Besides, there is no where In the NT where it states that you cannot grow without a man teaching you scripture . All you need is the sincere milk of the word which is the Bible and a willing heart. The new covenant states that All will be taught of God. John telling them that they need not that any man teach them was In reference to many false teachers. He told them that they know all things because they have already been taught. Haven't we already been taught by the bible? Dont we know all things from scriptures? So whatever any other person says will be in conformity with the word. The church is not a place where on teacher talks everytime. NO SIR. We r all brethren and all priests and Kings. Your teacher is not your Oracle. He too needs to be sat down and taught.

I think that all the above passages make it abundantly clear that the Bible DOES teach that the way to grow spiritually is to be fed the Truth by a pastor-teacher like Peter and Paul. The onus is on anyone who claims otherwise to show how there is any other way. Whether it is the milk for carnal believers or it is the strong meat of mature believers, both are fed to believers by pastor-teachers.

As for Hebrews 8, the Scripture is clear that it is referring to the Glorious Millennium of the Lord's Reign when our Lord will be ruling over the world from Jerusalem:

3 And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Isaiah 2:3

2 And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Micah 4:2

As for John, this is what the passage says:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 2:18-22 NASB

That is, John says to us that because antichrists are out and about, he is writing to confirm our faith which actually exists. That is, we believe that Jesus is the Christ, we do not deny Him. We retain what we heard from the beginning (that is, the Gospel we heard when we first believed), so we don't need anyone to teach us anything about Jesus Christ. We know that He is the Christ, God Who became Man to die for us on the Cross so that we can be saved. There is nothing new to be added to that. So, we don't need to listen to antichrists. John was writing to address many heresies that were arising about the Lord Jesus. At the time, the antichrists were teaching that He was not fully human. John was confirming to believers that there was nothing that the antichrists had to teach that they needed to hear. The Gospel they heard was accurate and complete. The Lord Jesus was fully God and fully Man.

I see no biblical reason for believing the things that you have been claiming here. The Bible is what we have been given to learn, and pastor-teachers are given to us to help us learn it, that is, to minister it to us. That is what I see in the Bible. I see nothing like what you claim here in the Bible. For one who has been judging who believes the Bible here, I think it is interesting that you have trouble actually sticking to what it says rather than making things up.

gobuchinny:
I agree it important to hear a gifted teacher to further expound the word but that teacher is not your lifeline. I dont go around seeking one bro and am at my best place spiritually. Its expected of christains to grow and there is nothing He wants to say that the Holy Spirit cannot teach you.

Why is it important at all to hear a gifted teacher further expound the Word? Because you enjoy listening to people talk?

As for your claim that the Holy Spirit teaches you, where does the Bible teach that He does it without using the pastor-teacher?

gobuchinny:
I dont think you sought after the God on your own because everybody that did so sincerely in scripture found Him . Y didnt you until you found your pastor? What you stated my friend makes me worry . Because Yeshua is light. And he that dwelleth in light CANNOT be in darkness. Where I am now bro is a place of zero confusion because the word is my guide. Forget about the Book of Enoch or Jasher because you guys killing these books cannot bring one verse that contradicts the bible instead you sit in your place of authority shooting down what you haven't read?.In all these things if your pastor doesn't teach you not to love this world nor to be carnality minded them you haven't started to know the real Christ. Because now, everybody is seeking God to enhance their lives or career. But we are to be dead to this world. That's all that matters bro. Forget greek and hebrew translation, the KJV is enough for the Spirit.

Well, if I was wrong about you, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about someone. It appears like I only provoked your arrogance to don a new appearance. How exactly did you know that I never sought God on my own? You think you know me enough now to judge me too? Very well, take a number and get in line.

As for not being in confusion, you have written a lot of fictions on here, so I can understand if you want to believe that one too. By all means, believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me, but as I told you, I am not on the same side with you, so don't expect me to agree with you in the lies you write.

As for your books of Enoch and Jasher, as I said before, believe whatever you want. I can't both write my responses and read and understand them for you too.

gobuchinny:
You dont need anyone to break down any words in greek or hebrew before you understand the scriptures . All the teachings have already been done because the WHOLE GOSPEL has been taught so what is new. What we need is the Holy Spirit to teach us not your pastor or teacher . If you have one then great but if you dont, forget it. These is not the old testament where God is giving you pastors after His own heart but this is the NT where God resides in you and will teach you himself with the word as a guide. We are to be brought to remembrance of the teachings of the apostles so I really dont know what your pastor teacher will teacher. Teach you how to read?

What I'm missing in all your proud statements is any proof that this is what the Bible actually teaches.

gobuchinny:
The teacher and pastor r like any other ministry gift, nothing special. So let me ask you. If your teacher teaches, then who teaches him? We are to admonish ourselves as Paul stated in Corinthains and other epistles. Dont get me wrong, teachers are needed but just like prophets, apostles, and the other gifts. We are not to seek them like our lives depends on them. We are all sons and are capable of understanding scriptures. I agree that all should not teach because teacher have a higher query before God as we understand from scripture.

Every teacher is taught by another teacher in order to mature spiritually and become able to teach (Ephesians 4:11-12).

Why are teachers needed? And how are prophets, apostles and other gifts needed? If we are all capable of doing it by ourselves, then why do gifts exist and why do we need each other?

gobuchinny:
Think about it, why didnt Paul seek after the apostles immediately after conversion? Teachers are good but camping with the Holy spirit and your KJV is the best my man esp in these days were the true church is hard to decipher .

Peace to you.

Paul was an Apostle, one of the Twelve (he was the Lord's replacement for Judas), so he was different from the rest. He was taught by the Lord Jesus Himself, just like the other Apostles were. Are you an apostle?

What's this about the KJV now? Have you inspired that one too?

Ihedinobi3:

​1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV)

Verse 2 in NASB reads:

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach.

That is, Paul said, "if anyone wants to lead the church of God, that is a good desire, but he must be able to teach, that is, he must possess the gift of teaching in order to be able to teach, or else he cannot lead the church."

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
(KJV) 1 Timothy 5:17

In the NASB, the above reads as follows:

17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
1 Timothy 5:17 NASB

That is, Paul said that elders are supposed to be working hard at the Word and teaching it, and if they are, they are worthy of double honor.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(KJV) Acts 20:28

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
(KJV) John 21:15-17

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
(KJV) Acts 6:2-4

​1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
(KJV) 1 Peter 5:1-3

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby
(KJV) 1 Peter 2:2

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 3:2

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(KJV) Hebrews 5:12-14

That is, just like Peter, elders are supposed to "feed" the Lord's Flock with the milk and the strong meat of the Word depending on their spiritual development. We also see that this "feeding" is called "ministry of the Word" and "laboring in the Word" and "teaching." This is what the Bible actually says, not some idea anyone may pull out of their uninspired head.

The elder was the teacher. He was not elected to any office. You cannot see anything about election in the passages above. He was selected to be an elder if he had the gift of teaching and met the other requirements that Paul laid down for Timothy. Each church could have more than one pastor-teacher, that is true, but there is no rule at all in the Bible that that was always to be the case. In fact, considering Timothy's authority and other examples in the Bible, it seems to make sense to expect that a pastor-teaching ministry is not a team affair. Paul told Timothy to be careful to select the men whom he trained for the teaching ministry (2 Timothy 2:2) and to be careful to teach authoritatively, not in committee. So, while a church that loves the Truth could be served by multiple pastor-teachers, the reality often is that the church visible is a mixed multitude, so the pastor-teacher has to be careful to keep his teaching untainted by others who may not respect the Truth as he does. As a result, many times, pastor-teaching ministries are run solo whether in a physical assembly or "out in the wilderness."

So, I cannot agree with you that the elder was not a pastor-teacher. In fact, what made him an elder was that he was a believer with a teaching gift who was also able to pastor or shepherd (both words mean the same thing) the Church. It is because he can use his teaching gift to pastor that he leads the church. Women who have the same gift, for example, are not allowed to pastor because pastoring is exercising spiritual authority over others (1 Timothy 2:12-13). This is only allowed to men.


About not being subject to teachers because they are not church leaders, see my discussion above. In short, you couldn't lead the church unless you had a teaching gift and had matured spiritually and had been adequately prepared for the job. So, when Hebrews 13:17 commands us to submit to our leaders, it is actually commanding us to submit to teaching authority.

As for submitting to one another, as I said to you, we are together as one Body to build each other up. So, although the pastor-teacher exercises doctrinal authority over other believers, he also depends on other believers for other things that he cannot necessarily do for himself. For example, a pastor-teacher is always in need of encouragement. His is often a lonely work and he is often a shield for other believers so that the enemy focuses his attacks on him more than on anybody else around him (Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31). For this reason, he ought not to be shy to ask for and depend on other believers for prayers (Hebrews 13:18, for example). That is how we submit to one another: by allowing them to help us with their own gifts.

As for God bringing His Word through just anyone, where does the Bible say this? What I do see in the Bible is this:

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40

That is, in the assembly, only what is good for building up believers in the Truth is what is allowed, and only in order. Who decides what is edifying in the assembly? That is the pastor-teacher or the elder. In other words, only if the pastor-teacher is confident that one is a reliable student of the Truth and a worthy person will he allow such a person to make an input in the assembly that will not cause harm to others there.

As for the issue of whether a pastor is a different thing from a teacher, do you see this anywhere in the Bible? As I said above, the pastor-teacher pastors God's Flock with his teaching gift.

As for whether everyone is called to be taught by the Lord, of course we are. But the Bible is clear that believers of the Church Age are to grow with each other's help, with Apostles, prophets, pastor-teachers, and evangelists specially instituted to oversee this growth (Ephesians 4:11-16). If we are to learn directly from the Lord in this Age without the mediation of one another, then we ought not to even have a Bible or even need an evangelist to proclaim the Gospel in order to be saved, ought we? Why should we need apostles and prophets to write the Scriptures or evangelists to tell us of the Gospel if we don't need pastor-teachers to learn the Truth systematically and mature spiritually?


I think that all the above passages make it abundantly clear that the Bible DOES teach that the way to grow spiritually is to be fed the Truth by a pastor-teacher like Peter and Paul. The onus is on anyone who claims otherwise to show how there is any other way. Whether it is the milk for carnal believers or it is the strong meat of mature believers, both are fed to believers by pastor-teachers.

As for Hebrews 8, the Scripture is clear that it is referring to the Glorious Millennium of the Lord's Reign when our Lord will be ruling over the world from Jerusalem:

3 And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Isaiah 2:3

2 And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Micah 4:2

As for John, this is what the passage says:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. 26[b]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you[/b]. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 2:18-22 NASB

That is, John says to us that because antichrists are out and about, he is writing to confirm our faith which actually exists. That is, we believe that Jesus is the Christ, we do not deny Him. We retain what we heard from the beginning (that is, the Gospel we heard when we first believed), so we don't need anyone to teach us anything about Jesus Christ. We know that He is the Christ, God Who became Man to die for us on the Cross so that we can be saved. There is nothing new to be added to that. So, we don't need to listen to antichrists. John was writing to address many heresies that were arising about the Lord Jesus. At the time, the antichrists were teaching that He was not fully human. John was confirming to believers that there was nothing that the antichrists had to teach that they needed to hear. The Gospel they heard was accurate and complete. The Lord Jesus was fully God and fully Man.

I see no biblical reason for believing the things that you have been claiming here. The Bible is what we have been given to learn, and pastor-teachers are given to us to help us learn it, that is, to minister it to us. That is what I see in the Bible. I see nothing like what you claim here in the Bible. For one who has been judging who believes the Bible here, I think it is interesting that you have trouble actually sticking to what it says rather than making things up.


Why is it important at all to hear a gifted teacher further expound the Word? Because you enjoy listening to people talk?

As for your claim that the Holy Spirit teaches you, where does the Bible teach that He does it without using the pastor-teacher?


Well, if I was wrong about you, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about someone. It appears like I only provoked your arrogance to don a new appearance. How exactly did you know that I never sought God on my own? You think you know me enough now to judge me too? Very well, take a number and get in line.

As for not being in confusion, you have written a lot of fictions on here, so I can understand if you want to believe that one too. By all means, believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me, but as I told you, I am not on the same side with you, so don't expect me to agree with you in the lies you write.

As for your books of Enoch and Jasher, as I said before, believe whatever you want. I can't both write my responses and read and understand them for you too.


What I'm missing in all your proud statements is any proof that this is what the Bible actually teaches.


Every teacher is taught by another teacher in order to mature spiritually and become able to teach (Ephesians 4:11-12).

Why are teachers needed? And how are prophets, apostles and other gifts needed? If we are all capable of doing it by ourselves, then why do gifts exist and why do we need each other?


Paul was an Apostle, one of the Twelve (he was the Lord's replacement for Judas), so he was different from the rest. He was taught by the Lord Jesus Himself, just like the other Apostles were. Are you an apostle?

What's this about the KJV now? Have you inspired that one too?

Please, explain what happened here, because I don't understand your theory of how Jesus appointed Paul to replace Judas;

Acts 1 v 22-26;
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

And ask for your talk on gifts, I thought you earlier mentioned the Holy Spirit withheld some of them from the church, abi you don change mouth again?

gobuchinny:


My man everything I said here is scripture as regards carnality and the church infact you know nothing of scripture to feel that a NT beleiver needs a teacher to grow . That is a lie form hell brother.

I'm afraid I haven't seen this "scripture" you speak of. I just keep seeing claims upon claims, but I don't actually see the part of the Bible that supports the wild things that you say.

gobuchinny:
Hebrew 1 bs1-2. In the past God spoke through the prophets but in this days He spoke through the son. The word of the Son are in black and white. The Apostles has taught All the counsel of God as stated in the NT. SO what exactly is your teacher teaching?

The Bible has been written. That was the job of the Apostles and the prophets. The job of pastor-teachers is to interpret it.

gobuchinny:
It's a crime to distort scripture which is what you have done to say no none can grow without been taught. That my friend is a lie of passion . You r all talk no scripture.

How do you accuse me of a lie in the same breath that you are using to tell a big one too? Which response have I made to you without Scriptural witnesses for anything that I have said to you?

gobuchinny:
If you desperately need a teacher what about the prophet, apostles, evangelist...named before pastors and teachers? Didnt you seek them also. That's y u r so confused because men teach you.

Are you absolutely sure that you read my responses to you?

gobuchinny:
You beleive in a verse from a book quoted by Peter n Jude yet you dont beleive the book . Show me one verse that contradicts the bible. Ain't we to test ALL spirits first? How did you jump into conclusion? Let me guess. Your man god told you so you wont think for urself.

I don't see any proof for this insane claim that you and your cohorts keep repeating that anything from the book of Enoch was used in the Bible. Where is your proof? Am I supposed to see a vision of it?

gobuchinny:
In fact if you ask me friend, if you say apostles are done away with then more for the teachers. What r they teaching? To read the bible that is clear? ALL the counsel of God has been packaged in the book so what exactly r u saying? Its fear of man that is your greatest snare. You r afraid to trust God so you chase men . Hence when you were supposed to be alone with Yahweh like Paul you were chasing breakthrough and miracles so how do you expect to hear God. Then you ran after your godteacher.

By all means, ignore teachers. I only gave you the advice I gave because I thought that there might be something in you that would respond to the Truth, but as I said, I have been wrong about people before, so it's no great surprise that I am once again. It really makes no difference to me what you choose to do with yourself.

gobuchinny:
The bible is enough to navigate us if we are serious with God. If we die to this world and hate this world. If we deny ourselves and carry our cross everyday and follow Him. He won't deny Himself. He said, He that hath my comandment and doeth them, he it is that loves me and He that loves me, I will love and manifest myself to him . Why didnt He manifests himself to you because you were not seeking Him for who He is but for your carnal needs. NO you wont find Him then your teacher comes to finally brainwash you. In sure you cant question your teacher . Just like how you need teachers, then you should look for your godprophet, godevangelist...abi na only teacher pastor you see for that Eph 4 .

Bros my last comment with you. You are more confused than I thought. Just negodu saying you cannot grow without a man .

Between the mistake you making is this. We are not our own teacher but the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. Not your godman but the Holyspirt. So I'm not reacting to the church by being my own teacher, but the Holy Spirit which is all I need is my teacher.

If you dont know the abomination that maketh desolate which even our Lord Yeshua spoke about and Daniel then truly you dont know any truth but what your teacher tells you. You are just wandering round in circle chasing your tails .

No offense bro I'm done commenting unless you ofcourse raise issue on the BOE or Jasher that we can all hear speak and put to test and I will apologize if the Spirit behind the books is examined here and proved evil if not please just keep quiet.

Peace to you

There's really nothing of value in the rest of your comment to respond to. You seem to have reversed at top speed and shot straight into insanity to get away from what I said. At least, you won't presume that we are on the same side in the future.

MuttleyLaff:
Emp.iree, I know the problem my fellow muslim brothers and especially you have, so I'll assist you on the road to an ephiphany with this question, I trust you'll, unlike that dishonest Alfa, truthfully and sincerely answer it. Here it is Emp.iree:
Do you believe, accept and agree that, it is not hard or impossible for God, or for your sake, for Allah, to simultaneously be in heaven and on earth at the same time? Lol

We will revert back to your attachment and help you undo your confusion, after you've responded to the question, lol

this is the same thing you did 5yrs ago.

God is everywhere in literal sense and He sees everything in heavens and Earth front and back at the same time. He doesn't need to split into 2.

OkCornel:


Please, explain what happened here, because I don't understand your theory of how Jesus appointed Paul to replace Judas;

Acts 1 v 22-26;
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

And ask for your talk on gifts, I thought you earlier mentioned the Holy Spirit withheld some of them from the church, abi you don change mouth again?

This is what happened:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:8

That is, it is the Lord Who gives spiritual gifts to believers. Nobody is ever voted into a gift or office. So, Matthias was never an apostle. Luke merely told us that the disciples did something, not that what they did was right.

Also, we know that this happened before the disciples were given the Holy Spirit, so we can be sure that it wasn't sanctioned by the Holy Spirit.

Finally, we know how Paul came to the Faith. The Lord Jesus Himself was the One Who called him, just as He called the other Apostles in their turn earlier.

Bonus point: Paul made a point of pointing out his apostleship for the same exact reason as this confuses you: he was not one of those who were with the Lord Jesus before the Cross, and Matthias was voted by the disciples, so how could he be the replacement for Judas?

As for your question about gifts, refer to our previous discussions on the matter.

Ihedinobi3:

This is what happened:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:8

That is, it is the Lord Who gives spiritual gifts to believers. Nobody is ever voted into a gift or office. So, Matthias was never an apostle. Luke merely told us that the disciples did something, not that what they did was right.

Also, we know that this happened before the disciples were given the Holy Spirit, so we can be sure that it wasn't sanctioned by the Holy Spirit.

Finally, we know how Paul came to the Faith. The Lord Jesus Himself was the One Who called him, just as He called the other Apostles in their turn earlier.

Bonus point: Paul made a point of pointing out his apostleship for the same exact reason as this confuses you: he was not one of those who were with the Lord Jesus before the Cross, and Matthias was voted by the disciples, so how could he be the replacement for Judas?

As for your question about gifts, refer to our previous discussions on the matter.

I'm really shocked to be honest. Did you miss out that part where the Apostles prayed to God before lots were casted that fell on Matthias?

Acts 1 v 24-26;
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Another thing please, where precisely did Jesus appoint Paul as an Apostle to replace Judas?

OkCornel:


I'm really shocked to be honest. Did you miss out that part where the Apostles prayed to God before lots were casted that fell on Matthias?
Another thing please, where did Jesus appoint Paul as an Apostle to replace Judas?

I'm not sure how a prayer to the Lord sanctions anything. Is the Lord bound to sanction something just because somebody, Apostle or not, prayed for it?

Regarding your second question, did you miss this in my post:

"Finally, we know how Paul came to the Faith. The Lord Jesus Himself was the One Who called him, just as He called the other Apostles in their turn earlier?"

Edited.

Ihedinobi3:

I'm not sure how a prayer to the Lord sanctions anything. Is the Lord bound to sanction something just because somebody, Apostle or not, prayed for it?

Regarding your second question, did you miss the bonus point in my post?

I didn't miss anything. No doubt, Jesus called Paul. But as a replacement for Judas? how? why not Barnabas nor Mark?

How did you arrive at that conclusion Jesus called Paul for the purpose of replacing Judas?

Oh, and I'm just hearing Matthias was never an apostle, how come?

OkCornel:


I didn't miss anything. No doubt, Jesus called Paul. But as a replacement for Judas? how? why not Barnabas nor Mark?

How did you arrive at that conclusion Jesus called Paul for the purpose of replacing Judas?

I'm not sure why you expect me to be able to tell you why the Lord chooses one person to be an Apostle, but not another. Why did He choose Matthew? Why Peter? Why Andrew? Why didn't He call Mary Magdalene or Lazarus? Such questions are meaningless.

As to how I know that the Lord replaced Judas with Paul, it was because we know that the Apostles can only be 12. You will see that teaching in Revelation 21:14 and Matthew 19:28. If there are only 12 apostles, and Matthias was not an Apostle, but the Lord called Paul in the same way that He called the other Apostles, then Paul is the replacement for Judas.

Empiree:
this is the same thing you did 5yrs ago.

[img]https://s2/images/MuttleyHilarious.gif[/img]
Here I was thinking its only elephants who never forgets. On a serious note, since Muslims are allowed to lie to non-muslims, I am 110% sure, you made up the "this is the same thing you did 5yrs ago" sob story. What is the same thing I did 5yrs ago?

Empiree:
God is everywhere in literal sense and He sees everything in heavens and Earth front and back at the same time. He doesn't need to split into 2.

[img]https://s0/images/MuttleyLaffsipsTea.gif[/img]
Who is talking of splitting anything into two. You my dear Empiree and other muslim brother friends with your fascination of splitting things. I guess, we'll put it down to how prophet Muhammad allegedly split the moon, isnt it? lol, bwahahaha.

Look at you fumbling at a simple, easy, direct and straightforward question.
Just answer the question ojaare, dont be telling something we already all know about God is everywhere in every literal sense of it and He sees everything in heavens and Earth front and back at the same time.

Empiree, here's the question a second time:
Do you believe, accept and agree that, it is not hard or impossible for God, or for your sake, Allah, to simultaneously be in heaven and on earth at the same time? Dont try to dodge the question please. Man up, bite the bullet, answer the question. Just do it, joor. Lol

Ihedinobi3:

I'm not sure why you expect me to be able to tell you why the Lord chooses one person to be an Apostle, but not another. Why did He choose Matthew? Why Peter? Why Andrew? Why didn't He call Mary Magdalene or Lazarus? Such questions are meaningless.

As to how I know that the Lord replaced Judas with Paul, it was because we know that the Apostles can only be 12. You will see that teaching in Revelation 21:14 and Matthew 19:28. If there are only 12 apostles, and Matthias was not an Apostle, but the Lord called Paul in the same way that He called the other Apostles, then Paul is the replacement for Judas.

If it was designated for only 12 people to be apostles, how do you reconcile your position with this statement by Paul?

Ephesians 4 v 11;
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.

Did you see Paul pegging the number of Apostles to a certain number?

OkCornel:


If it was designated for only 12 people to be apostles, how do you reconcile your position with this statement by Paul?

Ephesians 4 v 11;
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.

Did you see Paul pegging the number of Apostles to a certain number?

Did you see the Bible references that I offered? Is there a problem with them?

Nevertheless, Paul said what he said for two reasons:

1. 12 is "some." Not everybody is an apostle, and there are certainly apostles. So, only some of us are apostles. 12 is some.

2. "Apostle" is a word that means two things in the New Testament. One of them is the 12 special messengers selected by the Lord Jesus to complete the revelation of the New Covenant for the Church. The other is "sent one," which is what a missionary is. Whoever was specifically sent out to take the Gospel to a place was an apostle. Barnabas and Apollos are examples of such people.

Ihedinobi3:

Did you see the Bible references that I offered? Is there a problem with them?

Nevertheless, Paul said what he said for two reasons:

1. 12 is "some." Not everybody is an apostle, and there are certainly apostles. So, only some of us are apostles. 12 is some.

2. "Apostle" is a word that means two things in the New Testament. One of them is the 12 special messengers selected by the Lord Jesus to complete the revelation of the New Covenant for the Church. The other is "sent one," which is what a missionary is. Whoever was specifically sent out to take the Gospel to a place was an apostle. Barnabas and Apollos are examples of such people.

Yeah right, 12 is some...2,000 is also some, 150,000 is also some. You haven't mentioned where Paul pegged the number to 12, except for your panel beating of the scriptures.


The Apostles who prayed and seeked the face of God before selecting Matthias as one of the 12. But you're here telling us otherwise that Matthias was never an apostle.

Interesting. Very interesting. I guess the "spirit filled" Apostles made a "mistake" selecting Matthias as one of them

Ihedinobi3, I must thank you for something though. I have something additional to research further on.

Revelation 21 v 14;
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

MuttleyLaff:
Do you believe, accept and agree that, it is not hard or impossible for God, or for your sake, Allah, to simultaneously be in heaven and on earth at the same time? Dont try to dodge the question please. Man up, bite the bullet, answer the question. Just do it, joor. Lol

I knew where you were driving at. Nothing is hard for God to do. Now, go on. I can guarantee you that i knew exactly where you are heading. But let me allow you to proof me wrong. Now please teach me

Empiree:
I knew where you were driving at. Nothing is hard for God to do. Now, go on. I can guarantee you that i knew exactly where you are heading. But let me allow you to proof me wrong. Now please teach me

You knew, in your dreams, where I were driving at, abi?. Fyi, I am not heading anywhere, where you arent already are.

For my sins, I am just helping you along getting the epiphany of how you underestimate God. I am helping you along from where you're at, to let you realise how so wrong about God you've been. I am helping you along, to let you, by yourself see how you fail to understand how powerful God, or Allah, in your sake is. Oh, hang on, unless, you want to accept and agree that your Allah, is not as powerful as the Good, Gracious, Merciful, God Almighty, the Creator of heaven, earth and everything, hmm?

Empiree, dont try and be clever by half. Nobody asked you any question that made you give a "Nothing is hard for God to do" answer to. Look at you formulating a question for yourself, so just to give this your convenient and unconnected reply. Please dont because you are afraid of giving the correct answer change the question form.

The question you were asked to give a response to, is:
Do you believe, accept and agree that, it is not hard or impossible for God, or for your sake, Allah, to simultaneously be in heaven and on earth at the same time?

Please, jor, find the courage to answer the question, outrightly and just the way it is asked and without you making any changes to the question before replying to it. Can you manage that, can you simply just do that, can I trust you to simply, honestly, truthfully and sincerely answer that innocent, harmless, simple easy direct and straightforward question, erhn?

Empiree, I wish you had a teachable spirit, because to one, having a teachable spirit, more understanding is given, but if free of the teachable spirit, then what little understanding might have had, will be taken away and this is exactly what's going on, especially with you. Your understanding of God and appreciation of the efficacy of God, is slowly reducing, is rapidly eroding and because of sheer ignorance is being gradually destroyed

MuttleyLaff:

The question you were asked to give a response to, is:
Do you believe, accept and agree that, it is not hard or impossible for God, or for your sake, Allah, to simultaneously be in heaven and on earth at the same time?

I am gonna, for the sake of your question, answer you again so that I give you space to disappoint me.


Answer to your question again is, NOTHING IS HARD FOR GOD/ALLAH.

Now, run along and please don't repeat the question because you have been duly answered. So proceed.