WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE?

I wanted to pretend I didn't read about the G. O who said 'Christmas' is not in the Bible and so shouldn't be celebrated. It's the same funny mentality of those who confuse terminology with theology. Easter as a term is not in the Bible but we celebrate easter because it's an event and a mystery recorded in scripture. Same with Christmas, it's not the term or calendar date we celebrate but the event and mystery. One day now someone will wake up tipsy on 'anointing' and tell me to tell him why I call myself a Catholic since that term doesn't exist in the Bible. Same folly can be extended to all churches because no church has a name that's used as a group of church members in the Bible.

A Pentecostal church that says it doesn't celebrate Christmas bc the term doesn't exist in the Bible but calls itself a Pentecostal church is just a comic contradiction. Pentecost means 50th day, it was an agricultural feast that had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit until that particular year that the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles in Acts 2. Even after that there is no record in scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on other people on Pentecost day. If I wanted to be 'an anointed idiot' I would have been going round condemning Christians who identify as Pentecostals, quizzing them to show me where it's in the Bible that a group of believers were referred to as Pentecostals or to prove to me where any group of Christians celebrated Pentecost in the Bible. Yet common sense dictates that it's neither terminology nor semantics we identify as Pentecostal but the reality and mystery of the Holy Spirit. Whoever adjectivised SENSE with COMMON hasn't experienced this generation of WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE intoxicated Christians, common sense is very rare.

The Bible is not a dictionary or history book, it's more of a theology than terminology. When you want to use the Bible to validate or invalidate any religious practice, you look for the biblical theology about it, not the terminology. Mothers day, fathers day, Children's day, etc are not in the Bible, but the Bible doesn't have anything against their celebration. It's only a religious ignoramus that will condemn those celebrations and get pious zombies to follow suit. If you care to know, there are many things we do in life that are not in the Bible and God isn't angry at all. Traditional marriage, village meetings, cross over vigils(these 'show me where it's in the Bible' folks who are addicted to 31st Dec Cross over vigil don't even know it's not in the Bible in their sense), birthday parties, wedding anniversaries etc are not in the Bible.
Finally, someone needs to tell Dr Olukoya that MFM has a football club, I've been searching for it in the Bible and couldn't find, abi no be MFM get that football club? Some nonsense must stop this 2019 o, let me come and be going.

By Fada Oluoma

This same "holier than thou" attitude is why the pharisees had Jesus Christ put to death with all kinds of excuses....it is wrong to heal on the sabbath, moses commanded us to stone adulterers to death but you....they are only plotting their own downfall. Dec 25 was a day for celebrating the "sun god" so celebrating christmas on dec 25 is demonic...like the sun god worshippers created dec 25?

Crisis! To celebrate or not?

martooski:
WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE?

I wanted to pretend I didn't read about the G. O who said 'Christmas' is not in the Bible and so shouldn't be celebrated. It's the same funny mentality of those who confuse terminology with theology. Easter as a term is not in the Bible but we celebrate easter because it's an event and a mystery recorded in scripture. Same with Christmas, it's not the term or calendar date we celebrate but the event and mystery. One day now someone will wake up tipsy on 'anointing' and tell me to tell him why I call myself a Catholic since that term doesn't exist in the Bible. Same folly can be extended to all churches because no church has a name that's used as a group of church members in the Bible.

Why you can be told not to necessarily call yourself a Catholic aside that the term doesn't exist in the Bible is because God is denomination-agnostic, there is no denomination in heaven, lol. There is nothing like Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Protestant, Aladura, MFM, KICC, RCCG, Winners, Deeper Life, Penterascals, Christ Embassy, etcetera in heaven or better still the Kingdom of God, lol

martooski:
A Pentecostal church that says it doesn't celebrate Christmas bc the term doesn't exist in the Bible but calls itself a Pentecostal church is just a comic contradiction. Pentecost means 50th day, it was an agricultural feast that had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit until that particular year that the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles in Acts 2. Even after that there is no record in scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on other people on Pentecost day. If I wanted to be 'an anointed idiot' I would have been going round condemning Christians who identify as Pentecostals, quizzing them to show me where it's in the Bible that a group of believers were referred to as Pentecostals or to prove to me where any group of Christians celebrated Pentecost in the Bible. Yet common sense dictates that it's neither terminology nor semantics we identify as Pentecostal but the reality and mystery of the Holy Spirit. Whoever adjectivised SENSE with COMMON hasn't experienced this generation of WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE intoxicated Christians, common sense is very rare.

False equivalence. Has pentecost, in light of what happened in the upper room, any specified date, that is chosen for that historic day and eventful moment to be remembered and/or celebrated ni? By the way, who in their right senses, goes around referring himself/herself as Penterascals sef anyway?

martooski:
The Bible is not a dictionary or history book, it's more of a theology than terminology. When you want to use the Bible to validate or invalidate any religious practice, you look for the biblical theology about it, not the terminology. Mothers day, fathers day, Children's day, etc are not in the Bible, but the Bible doesn't have anything against their celebration. It's only a religious ignoramus that will condemn those celebrations and get pious zombies to follow suit. If you care to know, there are many things we do in life that are not in the Bible and God isn't angry at all. Traditional marriage, village meetings, cross over vigils (these 'show me where it's in the Bible' folks who are addicted to 31st Dec Cross over vigil don't even know it's not in the Bible in their sense), birthday parties, wedding anniversaries etc are not in the Bible.
Finally, someone needs to tell Dr Olukoya that MFM has a football club, I've been searching for it in the Bible and couldn't find, abi no be MFM get that football club? Some nonsense must stop this 2019 o, let me come and be going.

By Fada Oluoma

The sort of nonsense that must stop this 2019 o is rantings and ravings such as like this one. Why havent you wondered, why isnt any other date like, Nov 25th, Oct 25th, Sept 25th, Jan 25th or even sef any other day of month X not picked or selected for celebration. Why particularly is the day December 25th chosen for selection as Jesus' birthdate, lol?

If you accept and agree to the use of the Bible to validate or invalidate any religious practice, based upon "biblical theology" then why havent you considered that, the deliberate omission of the exact date of our Lord and Savior, Son of God, Jesus Christ's birth day, must have by divine providence, been done on purpose, hmm? What afterall is "biblical theology"? Isnt it the study of God from the Bible, hmm? If so, then tell where from your studying God in the bible, it says, to pick and/or select a date, to celebrate the birth and/or death of our Lord and Savior, Son of God, Jesus Christ, lol, hmmm?

veeshock:
This same "holier than thou" attitude is why the pharisees had Jesus Christ put to death with all kinds of excuses....it is wrong to heal on the sabbath, Moses commanded us to stone adulterers to death but you....they are only plotting their own downfall. Dec 25 was a day for celebrating the "sun god" so celebrating Christmas on Dec 25 is demonic...like the sun god worshippers created dec 25?

The birth and/or death of our Lord and Savior, Son of God, Jesus Christ is a thing to be acknowledged, valued, appreciated, celebrated and be thankful of, not just only on Christmas day, but it should be a daily, everyday affair. Everyday is a day to rejoice.

It is true, not many know the background, that the first 300 years of what we know as Christianity, there wasnt any Christmas (i.e. no Christ's mass.) It just never existed, it wasn't so. It actually was Roman Emperor, Constantine who commandeered the pagan festival of Saturnalia to be converted and used to celebrate the birth of Christ, hence the December 25th that we have that pretends to be Jesus’ birthday, lol. Why didnt Fada Oluoma, look up on the internet first, what went on during the December 17-25 week long pagan feast, lol, holiday celebration of Saturnalia, lol and compare with Christmas festive period activites today, lol?

martooski:
If you care to know, there are many things we do in life that are not in the Bible and God isn't angry at all.

Sorry, I don't ever care to dwell in this level of suffocating ignorance and arrogance. No thanks.

Perhaps, I don't know, Fada Oluoma has been given a new doctrine other than what was handed down. However, it is no surprise at all. After all, discerning minds can easily sight from a thousand miles the 'author and finisher' of these new teachings.

Just a simple flip of Bible chapters and verses like Jeremiah 10:23, Proverbs 14:12, Isaiah 55:8 and Jeremiah 10:2; would have saved Fada Oluoma this humongous gaffe.

But be it as it may, one can always learn. Yes, the Op and Fada Oluoma (I don't know, they could be one and the same person) can always have a Bible handy when next they go on a ranting spree.

MuttleyLaff:

It is true, not many know the background, that the first 300 years of what we know as Christianity, there wasnt any Christmas (i.e. no Christ's mass.) It just never existed, it wasn't so. It actually was Roman Emperor, Constantine who commandeered the pagan festival of Saturnalia to be converted and used to celebrate the birth of Christ, hence the December 25th that we have that pretends to be Jesus’ birthday, lol. Why didnt Fada Oluoma, look up on the internet first, what went on during the December 17-25 week long pagan feast, lol, holiday celebration of Saturnalia, lol and compare with Christmas festive period activites today, lol?

Actually that's not really factual and it's one of those misconception about Constantine's influence on Christianity that has been around for so long, that most people just tend to believe it's true. I believe it's right up there with "Constantine choosing the Christian Canon and him making Jesus God".
In reality the proposal of December 25th as the birthday of Jesus predates Constantine or any pagan influence. The earliest allusion to 25th comes from Bishop Hippolytus sometime around 202 ad
"The first coming of our Lord, that in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the Kalends of January, a Wednesday, in the forty-second year of the reign of Augustus, 5500 years from Adam.”
This translates to December 25th, 2 BC. Also Julius Sextus Africanus came up with the same date around the same time. This is basically over a hundred years before Constantine and decades before Aurelian .

December 25th was not the only date that was proposed by the early church as Clement of Alexandria writes around 200 ad that different groups also proposed different dates
“There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of Pachon [May 20 ] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”
So for the first 200 yrs of Christianity, the church was silent on the birthday of Christ but apparently by the late 2nd century and early 3rd century there was an interest in pin pointing the date but this interest had nothing to do with pagan influence. It's worth noting that Christians during this period were still a persecuted minority group within the Roman empire,and they did their best to separate themselves from pagan practices and celebrations.
By the early 4th century before the conversion of Constantine, 2 dates were the leading ones, 25th of December and 6th of January( Mainly in the East) even though there was no official festivity associated with them.

There are a couple of leading theories of how these 2 dates were calculated as the Bible doesn't give much information but the most widely accepted one is:

Integral age: this concept has it's roots in Judaism. The basic idea is, all prophets of God enter and exit the world on the same day (Basically conception and death fall on the same day). So when the western church calculated the death of Christ as falling on the 25th of March (14th day of Nisan) it also meant he was conceived on the 25th of March. Add nine months to that and you get 25th of December as the day of birth.
The Eastern church calculation of the crucifixion fell on the 14th day of Artemisios on the Greek calendar which is April 6th. Add nine months and you get January 6.

There are other ways the dates were calculated devoid of pagan influence like the equinox and creation day theories attested to by church fathers writing.

As for the elephant in the room, theres no doubt that we can find pagan influences in the present day celebration of Christmas but this influences come mainly from the later centuries(the 6th century and beyond) as Christianity expanded into western and northern Europe. At this point the church didn't have much of a problem in borrowing from pagan practices and religions. But the date itself is not pagan in origin.

The earliest document to suggest that Christianity intentionally changed a pagan feast day to that of the birth of Christ comes from the 12th century (Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi). He wrote that Christians moved to day of Christ's birth back from January 6 to December 25th to coincide with the sol Invictus holiday and for some reason later biblical scholars ran with it and it later became popularized in the media. But more modern scholarships has shown that not to be true.

My own personal opinion: It's unclear as to when Christ was born as the Bible doesn't give us much information and it's also true that the early church didn't record celebrating the birth of Christ as a feast day up until the 4th century (though interest in figuring out the day started as early as the late 2nd century and by the late 3rd/early 4th century,the western church already settled on 25th). Today Christmas is a time to be around family and loved ones and also a day set aside by many to acknowledge the birth of the savior of the world, I believe there's no doctrine against such.
During the time of the early church, celebrating birthdays of any kind or of anyone was associated with paganism but today that is no longer the case, so those who wish to celebrate the day should be allowed to enjoy it to the fullest and for those who are not so inclined, it is also fine. I believe either way does not violate any doctrine of Christianity. Romans 14:1-10....Just my own opinion

jamesid29:
Actually that's not really factual and it's one of those misconception about Constantine's influence on Christianity that has been around for so long, that most people just tend to believe it's true. I believe it's right up there with "Constantine choosing the Christian Canon and him making Jesus God".
In reality the proposal of December 25th as the birthday of Jesus predates Constantine or any pagan influence. The earliest allusion to 25th comes from Bishop Hippolytus sometime around 202 ad
"The first coming of our Lord, that in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the Kalends of January, a Wednesday, in the forty-second year of the reign of Augustus, 5500 years from Adam.”
This translates to December 25th, 2 BC. Also Julius Sextus Africanus came up with the same date around the same time. This is basically over a hundred years before Constantine and decades before Aurelian .

December 25th was not the only date that was proposed by the early church as Clement of Alexandria writes around 200 ad that different groups also proposed different dates
“There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of Pachon [May 20 ] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”
So for the first 200 yrs of Christianity, the church was silent on the birthday of Christ but apparently by the late 2nd century and early 3rd century there was an interest in pin pointing the date but this interest had nothing to do with pagan influence. It's worth noting that Christians during this period were still a persecuted minority group within the Roman empire,and they did their best to separate themselves from pagan practices and celebrations.
By the early 4th century before the conversion of Constantine, 2 dates were the leading ones, 25th of December and 6th of January( Mainly in the East) even though there was no official festivity associated with them.

There are a couple of leading theories of how these 2 dates were calculated as the Bible doesn't give much information but the most widely accepted one is:

Integral age: this concept has it's roots in Judaism. The basic idea is, all prophets of God enter and exit the world on the same day (Basically conception and death fall on the same day). So when the western church calculated the death of Christ as falling on the 25th of March (14th day of Nisan) it also meant he was conceived on the 25th of March. Add nine months to that and you get 25th of December as the day of birth.
The Eastern church calculation of the crucifixion fell on the 14th day of Artemisios on the Greek calendar which is April 6th. Add nine months and you get January 6.

There are other ways the dates were calculated devoid of pagan influence like the equinox and creation day theories attested to by church fathers writing.

As for the elephant in the room, theres no doubt that we can find pagan influences in the present day celebration of Christmas but this influences come mainly from the later centuries(the 6th century and beyond) as Christianity expanded into western and northern Europe. At this point the church didn't have much of a problem in borrowing from pagan practices and religions. But the date itself is not pagan in origin.

The earliest document to suggest that Christianity intentionally changed a pagan feast day to that of the birth of Christ comes from the 12th century (Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi). He wrote that Christians moved to day of Christ's birth back from January 6 to December 25th to coincide with the sol Invictus holiday and for some reason later biblical scholars ran with it and it later became popularized in the media. But more modern scholarships has shown that not to be true.

My own personal opinion: It's unclear as to when Christ was born as the Bible doesn't give us much information and it's also true that the early church didn't record celebrating the birth of Christ as a feast day up until the 4th century (though interest in figuring out the day started as early as the late 2nd century and by the late 3rd/early 4th century,the western church already settled on 25th). Today Christmas is a time to be around family and loved ones and also a day set aside by many to acknowledge the birth of the savior of the world, I believe there's no doctrine against such.
During the time of the early church, celebrating birthdays of any kind or of anyone was associated with paganism but today that is no longer the case, so those who wish to celebrate the day should be allowed to enjoy it to the fullest and for those who are not so inclined, it is also fine. I believe either way does not violate any doctrine of Christianity. Romans 14:1-10....Just my own opinion

MuttleyLaff:
False equivalence. Has pentecost, in light of what happened in the upper room, any specified date, that is chosen for that historic day and eventful moment to be remembered and/or celebrated ni? By the way, who in their right senses, goes around referring himself/herself as Penterascals sef anyway?

The sort of nonsense that must stop this 2019 o is rantings and ravings such as like this one. Why havent you wondered, why isnt any other date like, Nov 25th, Oct 25th, Sept 25th, Jan 25th or even sef any other day of month X not picked or selected for celebration. Why particularly is the day December 25th chosen for selection as Jesus' birthdate, lol?

If you accept and agree to the use of the Bible to validate or invalidate any religious practice, based upon "biblical theology" then why havent you considered that, the deliberate omission of the exact date of our Lord and Savior, Son of God, Jesus Christ's birth day, must have by divine providence, been done on purpose, hmm? What afterall is "biblical theology"? Isnt it the study of God from the Bible, hmm? If so, then tell where from your studying God in the bible, it says, to pick and/or select a date, to celebrate the birth and/or death of our Lord and Savior, Son of God, Jesus Christ, lol, hmmm?

The birth and/or death of our Lord and Savior, Son of God, Jesus Christ is a thing to be acknowledged, valued, appreciated, celebrated and be thankful of, not just only on Christmas day, but it should be a daily, everyday affair. Everyday is a day to rejoice.

It is true, not many know the background, that the first 300 years of what we know as Christianity, there wasnt any Christmas (i.e. no Christ's mass.) It just never existed, it wasn't so. It actually was Roman Emperor, Constantine who commandeered the pagan festival of Saturnalia to be converted and used to celebrate the birth of Christ, hence the December 25th that we have that pretends to be Jesus’ birthday, lol. Why didnt (moniker ID edited out), look up on the internet first, what went on during the December 17-25 week long pagan feast, lol, holiday celebration of Saturnalia, lol and compare with Christmas festive period activites today, lol?

jamesid29, you want precise facts, right? OK then, let's go straightaway there, lol. First and foremost, jamesid29, you err, when you typed, that there was no official festivity associated with them. jamesid29, c'mon now, what about all these Christmas paraphernalia? Are they too, like Christmas tree, the decorations, the burning fire yule log etcetera, devoid of pagan influence too, lol?

While its true, others, previously before Constantine, have been romancing with the idea of picking a day for the celebration of Jesus' birth, it actually was Roman Emperor, Constantine who commandeered the pagan festival of Saturnalia to be converted and used to celebrate the birth of Christ, hence the December 25th that we have that pretends to be Jesus’ birthday, lol. It is a fact, that, before the year 336 AD, there is no record of December 25th being observed as the birth of Jesus, in Rome. The church in Rome began formally celebrating Christmas on December 25 in 336, during the reign of the emperor Constantine.

Constantine, having made Christianity, effectively the state religion of the empire, chose this date December 25th, as part of a political move to weaken the established popular pagan celebrations and Roman festival, the December 17-25 week long pagan feast, called the Saturnalia, that's characterised with people feasting and exchanging gifts with each other. Incidentally, also December 25th, is the birthday of the Indo-European deity Mithra, a god of light and loyalty and at that time, was increasingly achieving cult status with the Roman soldiers.

Starting on December 17 and lasting seven days, Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture, is being honored, lol, then starting on December 25 and lasting through January 1, commemorates the birth of Mithras, the Persian god of light, lol, but Constantine merged these two traditions from these festivals with the Nativity story in the Bible and the rest is history on how Christmas was born, lol.

I am saying this, in the real sense of the word, it was Constantine who commissioned, the building of the Church of the Nativity on a spot in Bethlehem assumed to be the exact birthplace of Christ. Check out the below excerpt, on who then, first made Christmas official and declared December 25th a civic holiday, lol.

"While there is one record of Christmas being celebrated in Antioch (Turkey) on December 25 in the middle of the second century, there is no record of its being observed on that date in Rome until the year 336 AD. In 350 AD Pope Julius I declared December 25 the official date and in 529 AD Emperor Justinian declared Christmas a civic holiday. Further legislation by the Council of Tours in 567 AD officially made Advent a period of fasting and preparation; the time from Christmas to Epiphany (the twelve days of Christmas) was also declared part of the festive season"
Excerpt from: https://www.lnstar.com/mall/main-areas/xmas-not-first-choice.htm

jamesid29, in your comments, you said, they are your own personal opinion, that "it's unclear as to when Christ was born as the Bible doesn't give us much information and it's also true that the early church didn't record celebrating the birth of Christ".

OK, let's go there on this comment too, lol. Lets separate facts from opinions but I'll start first, by reproducing here a quote of mine pasted here, taken from one of my posts on another thread

MuttleyLaff:
You're not alone. December 25th is just like every other day to me, for me and everyone in our household. You'll soon have an idea why, if you continue reading on and read on to the end, lol

(moniker ID edited out), you say, no one knows the exact date of Jesus' birth, but with evidences from scripture we are able to pin it down to sometime and somewhere in the month of September, lol. He, as a matter of fact, was born in the month of September, (moniker ID edited out), lol.

The shepherds who had gone to visit him in the manger, would have done so in the month of September/October, lol.

[img]https://s5/images/DancingOnOct31Hallowen.gif[/img]

(moniker IDs edited out) what do you each think Nimrod means in Hebrew. Nimrod, fyi (moniker IDs edited out) is an archetype of Satan, lol and as a matter of fact, December 25th is his birthday, and so by extension and even proxy, Satan's birthday actually it is too December 25th, lol. I am sensing you saying, but God created Satan long before our calendar days ever got going, lol. Yeah, that is true and you'll be right but remember Nimrod, that Nimrod is an archetype of Satan, hmm? lol.

The bad and unsavoury taste in the mouth doesnt stop there, Satan even covets the Sabbath day, by going after it, hence we have Saturday (i.e. Saturn's day, lol)

Every day is a day to celebrate the birth/death of our Lord and Savior, the Son of God Jesus Christ. It is not only on Christmas day. Christmas day was originally a Pagan festival. Constraint of time and space would not allow me to open up here, the can of worms of Christmas day celebration proper and to spill out its ugly contents.

Let's go back a step or two, to see how much of a liar Satan is and to take a look at one of Satan's diversionary tactics. We are going to delve on to October 31st, lol. Yeah, spill the beans on Halloween, baby, lol. Satan will want to give you a false sense of security, by distracting any suspicious attention away from December 25 and diverting the attention on to October 31st, make you believe that October 31st is Satan's birthday and that December 25th is Jesus', lol.

(moniker IDs edited out), yeah, everyday is Satan's day on this earth, until rapture, just like (moniker ID edited out) has rightly above put it, but every day is a day, the Lord has made too and so we should rejoice and be glad in every single day, everyday, and not just one day whether its October 31st, December 25th or whatever day it is set aside for "celebration." The steadfast love of God never ceases, His mercies never come to an end, they are new every morning, every day, great is His faithfulness, so why cant we celebrate everyday, instead of settling for just one day, a day like just particularly only December 25th, lol, erhn? Have you ever wondered why, the powers that be, selected December 25th and not November 25th, October 25th, September 25th, January 25th etcetera, hmmm, lol?

"⁵In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.
⁶Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.
¹⁰So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. "
- Romans 14:5-6 & 10

Yep, (moniker IDs edited out), we are cognisance of Romans 14:5-6 & 10 above, which is why no one is being judged or condemned for celebrating Jesus on December 25th, neither is anyone being judge or condemned for not joing in celebrating Jesus on December 25th, but just are merely giving a sense of perspective view, on some behind the scene and not usually discussed camouflaged real facts of December 25th, lol. Just gave a snapshot bird's-eye view, as in meaning, just the bones without the meat on, lol.

Happy festive period y'all, lol

jamesid29, I think, "the elephant in the room" is what you called what's just being touched in the above quote, lol.

Opinions change, but facts don't, they never do jamesid29, because they're based on reality. jamesid29, lol, listen, if I should it break down, and by that, I mean embark to speak or write in detail about how Jesus was born in September/October, how one gets to know what month Jesus was conceived etcetera for you, ol'boy, your personal opinion(s), in the face of the presented facts, and there are a sizeable amount of these facts, will expressly change ooo and you'll pronto withdraw them, lol, yet, I am, all for, let sleeping dogs lie and not rocking the table, not discuss the matter any further, lol.

MuttleyLaff:


jamesid29, you want precise facts, right? OK then, let's go straightaway there, lol. First and foremost, jamesid29, you err, when you typed, that there was no official festivity associated with them.

Sir, what I was saying by my statement is when the dates where been calculated in the late 2nd/early 3rd century (around the early 200s AD), there was no festivities associated with it. The early church didn't celebrate birthdays of anyone during this period and even Origen went as far as mocking pagans for celebrating birthdays. My point was the church didn't have any ulterior motive or pagan influence during this period in choosing December 25th as one of the possible dates for the birth of Christ. The early church was more interested in celebrating the day of martyrdom of saints and Easter more than anything else. It was until we get to the 4th century (the 300s AD) before we get any allusion to the fact that any festivity was associated with the birth of Christ. Around the early 400s Bishop Augustine claims a local Donatists group refused to add January 6th(Epiphany) to their Christmas festivity of December 25th. As the donatists emerged during the Diocletian persecution and mostly didn't change their traditions from that time onwards, Augustine's writing gives the allusion that at the very least some local groups had already started attaching festivities to the date as far back as 312 AD.

jamesid29, c'mon now, what about all these Christmas paraphernalia? Are they too, like Christmas tree, the decorations, the burning fire yule log etcetera, devoid of pagan influence too, lol?

Sir if u read my post again, u would find I touched on this also... Yes it's true that quite a number of modern Christmas paraphernalia do have pagan influences, but these come centuries later as the church became more comfortable syncretizing pagan cultures with Christianity. For example the Christmas tree u mentioned comes from medieval druidic practices.

While its true, others, previously before Constantine, have been romancing with the idea of picking a day for the celebration of Jesus' birth, it actually was Roman Emperor, Constantine who commandeered the pagan festival of Saturnalia to be converted and used to celebrate the birth of Christ, hence the December 25th

This is also not factual sir. For starters, the festival of saturnalia was never celebrated on the 25th of December. It was a week long celebration from the 17th to the 23rd of December( it actually started out as a one day celebration 17th only before becoming a 1 week celebration and later emperors tried scaling it back because it was putting to much strain on the Roman economy). The actual Roman holiday that fell on the 25th of December is the sol Invictus( Started by Aurelian around 274 AD) and there are two leading theories for why 25th was chosen.
1) The original sol Invictus by Aurelian was held sometime in August but it was Julian the apostate that moved it 25th December.
2) Aurelian chose 25th December to spite the Christians

Either theory has it's merit and drawbacks but in either case the calculation by Hippolytus and Julius Sextus Africanus predates Aurelian and sol Invictus by at least 70 years. Plus it's well attested that the church at this time did everything possible to separate themselves from any form of paganism and heresy.

It is a fact, that, before the year 336 AD, there is no record of December 25th being observed as the birth of Jesus, in Rome. The church in Rome began formally celebrating Christmas on December 25 in 336, during the reign of the emperor Constantine

.
Sir like I said earlier, the festivities and the calculation of the date were independent of each other. For the 336AD dating, I address it below when talking about the exert you post

Starting on December 17 and lasting seven days, Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture, is being honored, lol, then starting on December 25 and lasting through January 1, commemorates the birth of Mithras, the Persian god of light, lol, but Constantine merged these two traditions from these festivals with the Nativity story in the Bible and the rest is history on how Christmas was born, lol.

Sir, the Persian empire and the Roman empire were two distinct empires. It was Greek culture that Rome assimilated and with time the Eastern Roman side had more Greek influence while the Western roman side was more Latin and we can still see those influences today even in the church (Greek Orthodox Church and Latin Roman Catholic church). Persia was actually a thorn at the side of the Roman empire and during Constantines reign Persia fought Rome to a standstill and persecuted Christans within their empire. I don't dabble much into the Persian empire, just the bits that pertain to the Roman empire and there was not a time Constantine merged cultures with Persia to form Christmas.

Check out the below excerpt, on who then, first made Christmas official and declared December 25th a civic holiday, lol.

Sir, I read the exert and I believe you to be quite knowledgeable. I believe you know that official declarations by the church does not mean that was when a tradition began. Quite a number of people today would say the church had no official Canon till the 4th century and that there was no Orthodoxy in the early church. The gnostics, the arians and those that upheld what we would call Orthodoxy today ,etc were all fighting for the top spot and by the council of Nicene, the winner took all and stamped out other sects. I believe you do not accept this to be true... The church had long known what was scripture and what was not and there was always Orthodoxy within Christianity. The council of Nicene and later Canon declarations only affirmed long held traditions of the church. Same thing applies here, long before any edicts or celebration, 25th had already been the dominant date for the birth of Christ in the western church.
As a separate aside: from the exert you gave, the first day 336AD was not an official declaration. It comes from an old list of the death days of christian bishops with the first entry being
December 25: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: “Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea
It doesn't tell us there was any state celebration on that day, it was just an official list of bishops death days. And you will notice that the next date in the exert, 350AD is post Constantine

jamesid29, in your comments, you said, they are your own personal opinion, that "it's unclear as to when Christ was born as the Bible doesn't give us much information and it's also true that the early church didn't record celebrating the birth of Christ

".

I personally like to let people know when I am presently information that are purely my own opinions in contrast to when I am presenting information that have been drawn from the body of work of others very knowledgeable in these things and has been verified by those equally knowledgeable in the subject matter. Doesn't necessarily mean I think my opinions are wrong...I just like to let people know what type of information I am presenting.

To your remarks about the September date as the birthday of Christ... I know of it also and I know it's the best bet calculations we have as of today but with a gun to my head, I wouldn't lay my down my life on the certainty of September as the birthday of Christ and I don't know of any body (most of whom accept the September dating) who would stake their careers on saying definitively that September is the exact month Christ was born( the answer is usually " most likely" ).
The problem is with such little information given in the scriptures and very little extra biblical account of his birth written in reliable sources, we are mostly forced to make assumptions in our calculations that can't be proven. It's like accurately calculating the creation date or when exactly the flood of noahs time happened down to the day and month. There's such little information available that it's like trying to pull water from a rock.

For me I like to play such datings safe hence my goto answer being "it's unclear"... but if someone is persistent and just wants a best guess date, I'll say the most likely dating is September with the information we have today but I will still butress my statement with "that's the best answer we have with the assumptions we make currently"
But If you sir are convinced totally with the September dating, that's also fine as either way doesn't touch on the tenets of faith or doctrine.

Edited

You have free. will of your own. God isn't your body guard.

MuttleyLaff:

Edited out. Realized that what I wrote here would take us down another path. Sorry about that.

Enjoy your holidays sir...