I shall (think it safe to) assume nearly everyone (Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Pagans, Traditionalists and Free-thinkers) is at least familiar with the 10 Commandments of Bible Literature (even if some may not know each one by instruction)

I shall summarize for the purpose of brevity; the 10 Commandments is a list of religious and moral imperatives that, (according to the Hebrew Bible) were given by God to the Israelite from Mount Sinai or Horeb. an inscription on two stone tablets which God wrote with his finger and gave to Moses. The 10 Commandments are recognized as a moral foundation in Judaism and Christianity.

The 10 Commandments declare the Lord, who brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt, to be God; prohibit having other gods before the Lord, and making or worshiping idols; threaten punishment for those who reject the Lord and promise love for those who love him; forbid misuse of the Lord's name; demand observance of the Sabbath and honoring one's parents; prohibit killing, adultery, theft, false testimony, and coveting of one's neighbor's goods.

That said, Did God write the 10 Commandments and why would he need to? we are clearly told that the Fallen Man (Adam and Eve) possessed the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Conscience or Still Small Voice) and basically had the framework for a guiding sense of Morality. Why did God not give them such Laws? Must Morality be derived from God? is the responsibility to determine what is right and wrong a function of God's Divine Law? are our actions Morally Right or Wrong because God says so? Do we need a Law-Maker and a Law-Giver to know what is Morally Wrong or Right.

When I look at similar 10 commandments of Allah, it still bears the same obviously simple concepts of Morality that even non-Muslims and non-Christians can agree with.

Do we need God to tell us what is Morally Right and Wrong? in such Strict Terms?

Thank you for your time

Nice topic.

As you astutely note, we do not "need" God to tell us what is morally right or wrong, and I believe this is so because we already have a moral compass inherently built in us by which we can use to calibrate our motives and measure the morality of a action -

Rom 2: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

. . . though sometimes it is not always black and white on what is right or wrong. God's laws are written on our hearts, and the way I see it, it also doesn't hurt to have them also written on paper or should I saw stone.

Interesting topic, I have studied the evolution of human morality and I can categorically say that humans learn morality, they learn what is good and what is bad from experience and they often experiment. No God wrote any commandments to any group of human beings on any stone tablet. Where exactly is the stone tablet? Some one like me will like to see such a God's hand writing at least.

Now to the topic, theist like to claim that morality is innate in humans, because god gave us morality an atheist like me will say that why then do so many people do morally bad things? The theist will then say because we are sinners and we need god to tell us what's right.

So which one is it? Is morality innate in us, or do we need God to tell us what's right? And if only what God says is right, then where do the other moral (but wrong) values come from? Remember that in history, plenty of terrible things were considered perfectly morally acceptable, including
- Killing children or stoning them to death (Sparta, Old Testament), Killing of twins in some parts of Nigeria for example.
- Beating your wife
- Slavery
- Genocide
-Killing others because they worship other Gods
-Racism and segregation
- Killing and eating your enemies(Parts of Australia)

Where did those values come from? Where they innate? If so they must have been given by God, right? And if they are not from God, it must mean they came from somewhere else. What is that? And why can't ALL moral values come about in the same way? Why does morality differ from culture to culture? Why is morality not objective?

Ok here's another one. If moral values are innate, and moral values are from God, why do so many things in the bible inspire our revulsion or repulsion? A short list would be
- Giving the death penalty to kids for disrespecting their parents
- Forcing a raped woman to marry her rapist (Moses' law)
- Sleeping with your dad because no other men were around (Lot and his daughters)
- Having thousands of wives and concubines (Solomon)
- Offering your daughters for mass rape (Lot and his daughters)
- Slavery (throughout the bible)
- Mass murder and genocide or killing people because they worshiped other Gods(throughout the bible)
If our internal moral system finds acts in the Bible (the supposed word of God) repulsive, where does that internal moral system come from? Obviously not God, or we'd agree with the bible. Why do many Christians pick and chose what is morally acceptable and what is not even from the bible? Any body that follows the old testament laws and moral standard will be put in prison, why is that so if such laws were form God?

JeSoul:


. . . though sometimes it is not always black and white on what is right or wrong. God's laws are written on our hearts, and the way I see it, it also doesn't hurt to have them also written on paper or should I saw stone.

Where is the said stone? I will love to see god's hand writing.

toneyb:

Interesting topic, I have studied the evolution of human morality and I can categorically say that humans learn morality, they learn what is good and what is bad from experience and they often experiment.

JeSoul:

Nice topic.

As you astutely note, we do not "need" God to tell us what is morally right or wrong, and I believe this is so because we already have a moral compass inherently built in us by which we can use to calibrate our motives and measure the morality of a action -
. . . though sometimes it is not always black and white on what is right or wrong. God's laws are written on our hearts, and the way I see it, it also doesn't hurt to have them also written on paper or should I saw stone.

Thanks guys for offering at least one point of agreement from two perspectives. Humans are inherently Moral or Immoral and this is learned from experience, whether God has a hand in it or not, our Sense of Morality originates from us individually or as a Society Consensus. (Man-made Principles Doctrines, Laws etc)

The issue of Morality troubles me on a personal level for the fact that some conflicting (with Human morals i.e) God-given instructions from Holy Books over a thousand years old still hold sway in present-day society where Man has outgrown common misconceptions of tradition that established the moral values in the ancient past. (specifically Christian and Islamic injunctions) From available History, Man took the FIRST Step towards Morality and perhaps through painful experiments in human nature, established Golden Moral Values we see today.

lagerwhenindoubt:
Thanks guys for offering at least one point of agreement from two perspectives. Humans are inherently Moral or Immoral and this is learned from experience, whether God has a hand in it or not, our Sense of Morality originates from us individually or as a Society Consensus. (Man-made Principles Doctrines, Laws etc)

I like the way you put that.

The issue of Morality troubles me on a personal level for the fact that some conflicting (with Human morals i.e) God-given instructions from Holy Books over a thousand years old still hold sway in present-day society where Man has outgrown common misconceptions of tradition that established the moral values in the ancient past. (specifically Christian and Islamic injunctions) From available History, Man took the FIRST Step towards Morality and perhaps through painful experiments in human nature, established Golden Moral Values we see today.

I'd like to comment on the above, but before that, might I ask a question or two. Suppose a particular action was considered moral 1000yrs ago, but is now considered immoral today - could both perspectives have been right? apt and proper for their circumstance? depending on the time/culture/available knowledge/dispensation?

This is not a trick or trap question, I'm just really seeking your thoughts on that. Thanks.

toneyb:

Where is the said stone? I will love to see god's hand writing.

Oga, you'll have to check with the archeaologists, I no know which side dem keep am

@OP
'knowledge of good and evil' is equal to conscience is equal to still small voice. qed.

On OP, because conscience abi morality is relative, but God's Word/standard is the same, unchanging.
Hope to revisit this, in the weekend

Even if the stone is produced and you saw the handwriting of the hebrew god, would that answer the question at hand. I don't think it would. Myriads of new questions that need answers would immediately surface.

My own question is this, since the 10 commandments were directed at the jews of those times, why should other folks of the world follow them? As a matter of fact, why should any other folks accept the hebrew god as their god to begin with?

toneyb:

Where is the said stone? I will love to see god's hand writing.

where there is no law there is no sin, 10 commandment is given 2 xtain 2 check themselve daily n 2 be obeyed

Jenwitemi:

Even if the stone is produced and you saw the handwriting of the hebrew god, would that answer the question at hand. I don't think it would. Myriads of new questions that need answers would immediately surface.

My own question is this, since the 10 commandments were directed at the jews of those times, why should other folks of the world follow them? As a matter of fact, why should any other folks accept the hebrew god as their god to begin with?

The first 6 of the 10 commandments are of no use to most people alive today. By the way thgere are 2 different 10 commandments in the bible. One is to be found in Exodus 20:2–17 and the other is found in Deuteronomy 5:6–21. The 10  commandments arte cultural laws written by ancient men to keep each other in line and create a form of cultural and moral  identity for themselves.

atropin:

where there is no law there is no sin, 10 commandment is given 2 xtain 2 check themselve daily n 2 be obeyed

The 10 commandments was not given to christians but to the jews.

Image123:

@OP
'knowledge of good and evil' is equal to conscience is equal to still small voice. qed.

On OP, because conscience abi morality is relative, but God's Word/standard is the same, unchanging.
Hope to revisit this, in the weekend

False, if you read the bible you will see that the god of the bible, his laws and standards were always changing.

@ ^^^

There was a law (i.e. Thou shall not eat of the , ) before the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments were a "means to an end"

As it were the 10 commandments is/was  "the schoolmaster" ,

Those that have "come of age" have no need of the schoolmaster ,

- "Won ti yege , won ti ja kankan" literally means they have shown themselves approved ,

For the kind people that the Isralites were (i.e. Stiff-necked) one surely needs the commandments on stone before they revert no one told me ,

This will do for now, can't post much - on a train and the carriage is swaying ,

JeSoul:

I like the way you put that.
I'd like to comment on the above, but before that, might I ask a question or two. Suppose a particular action was considered moral 1000yrs ago, but is now considered immoral today - could both perspectives have been right? apt and proper for their circumstance? depending on the time/culture/available knowledge/dispensation?

This is not a trick or trap question, I'm just really seeking your thoughts on that. Thanks.

Well, actions at the start can be seen as Morally Right but subsequently proven as Morally Wrong, (I think it becomes suspect if actions are proven as Morally Wrong only to be later re-proven as Morally Right) but IMHO I think there is a difference between what is Morally Right (Like do not willfully take another man's life) and what is Morally Acceptable (Take another man's life in times of war)

But to address your question specifically, i will draw on an experience i had in my teen years when 2LiveCrew release unabashedly immoral (they raised sexually explicit rap lyrics to a new level of nastiness) songs with appropriately lewd lyrics. it ultimately caused an outrage to the point that "As Nasty As They Wanna Be" was soooo profane and obscene that Courts in some states ruled against selling the album and actually arrested owners record stores that did.

Fast-forward 20 years and HipHop "Artistes" are doing far worse with profanity, sexually explicitly explicit (as-in real-deal explicit obscene) and are winning awards and recording enormous sales worldwide. The same society that Banned such music is now comfortable enough to see it as Morally Acceptable (Not Morally Right). The Content, Meaning and Value of the songs have not changed one bit from 20 years ago, but most people are no longer shocked and actually listen to it without prejudice. Once an action is considered Morally Wrong, it can come to general Moral Acceptance later but it still does not change the fact that it is Morally Wrong.

Morally Wrong actions can become the norm if it is supported by  (God's or Society's) Law or the absence of it. Morally Right actions tend to be established through knowledge and enlightenment.

You must forgive me, I just read through my post and it is not a neat knit (black and white) but there you have it.

e36991:

@ ^^^

There was a law (i.e. Thou shall not eat of the , ) before the 10 commandments.
The 10 commandments were a "means to an end"
As it were the 10 commandments is/was  "the schoolmaster" ,
Those that have "come of age" have no need of the schoolmaster ,
- "Won ti yege , won ti ja kankan" literally means they have shown themselves approved ,
For the kind people that the Isralites were (i.e. Stiff-necked) one surely needs the commandments on stone before they revert no one told me ,
This will do for now, can't post much - on a train and the carriage is swaying ,

Accepted! The Law is a Means to an End, I reason that it does not change the quality of what is Morally Right once the End is attained (unless it was implicitly Morally Wrong to begin with), don't you agree?

What are the ten commandments?
Can you name all of them in order?
How many people can answer these questions correctly.

The story of the ten commandments starts in chapter 19 where God arrives in a thunderstorm and Moses goes up the mountain for the first time. God tells Moses to keep the rest of the people away – Moses gets a monopoly on hearing what God has to say.

In Chapter 32 Moses finally brings the tablets of stone down the mountain, written on both sides.

Moses obviously takes great care of these God-given tablets of stone. Well – no, actually he doesn’t. When he sees what the Israelites have been up to while he was up on the mountain, he throws them down in irritation and breaks them. He then arranges a round of fratricide, in which three thousand men are killed, and for good measure God sends a plague upon the survivors.

A quiet interlude takes place in Chapter 33, where Moses makes friends with God again.

And then finally it happens: in Chapter 34 Moses cuts two new tablets of stone, goes up Mount Sinai, and God writes on them “the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.” And this time we are told what they are, and they are explicitly identified as the ten commandments.

Actually they are rather curious. They consist of eight of the rules from the middle of Chapter 23, rewritten in a different order, one rule from all the way back in Chapter 13, long before the Israelites got anywhere near Mount Sinai, and one completely new rule which hasn’t been mentioned before!

Nonetheless, Exodus Chapter 34 is the one and only place in the bible where the Ten Commandments are explicitly given.
The Real Ten Commandments

Here then are the Ten Commandments of the bible (according to the King James version).
“ Observe thou that which I command thee this day:

   1. behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Take heed to thyself, lest   thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

   2. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

   3. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

   4. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

   5. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. But the firstling of an backside thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

   6. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

   7. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end. Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

   8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

   9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.

  10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”


These are the final ten commandments that were carried in the ark of the covenant.
Why are they so different from the first ten commandments that moses received?
And why is it that no one mentions these when they talk about the ten commandments?

mantraa:

What are the ten commandments?
Can you name all of them in order?
How many people can answer these questions correctly.

The story of the ten commandments starts in chapter 19 where God arrives in a thunderstorm and Moses goes up the mountain for the first time. God tells Moses to keep the rest of the people away – Moses gets a monopoly on hearing what God has to say.

In Chapter 32 Moses finally brings the tablets of stone down the mountain, written on both sides.

Moses obviously takes great care of these God-given tablets of stone. Well – no, actually he doesn’t. When he sees what the Israelites have been up to while he was up on the mountain, he throws them down in irritation and breaks them. He then arranges a round of fratricide, in which three thousand men are killed, and for good measure God sends a plague upon the survivors.

A quiet interlude takes place in Chapter 33, where Moses makes friends with God again.

And then finally it happens: in Chapter 34 Moses cuts two new tablets of stone, goes up Mount Sinai, and God writes on them “the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.” And this time we are told what they are, and they are explicitly identified as the ten commandments.

Actually they are rather curious. They consist of eight of the rules from the middle of Chapter 23, rewritten in a different order, one rule from all the way back in Chapter 13, long before the Israelites got anywhere near Mount Sinai, and one completely new rule which hasn’t been mentioned before!

Nonetheless, Exodus Chapter 34 is the one and only place in the bible where the Ten Commandments are explicitly given.
The Real Ten Commandments

Here then are the Ten Commandments of the bible (according to the King James version).
“ Observe thou that which I command thee this day:

   1. behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Take heed to thyself, lest   thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

   2. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

   3. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

   4. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

   5. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. But the firstling of an backside thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

   6. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

   7. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end. Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

   8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

   9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.

  10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”


These are the final ten commandments that were carried in the ark of the covenant.
Why are they so different from the first ten commandments that moses received?
And why is it that no one mentions these when they talk about the ten commandments?

 

I wonder ohh. . . . .

lagerwhenindoubt:

Well, actions at the start can be seen as Morally Right but subsequently proven as Morally Wrong, (I think it becomes suspect if actions are proven as Morally Wrong only to be later re-proven as Morally Right) but IMHO I think there is a difference between what is Morally Right (Like do not willfully take another man's life) and what is Morally Acceptable (Take another man's life in times of war)

But to address your question specifically, i will draw on an experience i had in my teen years when 2LiveCrew release unabashedly immoral (they raised sexually explicit rap lyrics to a new level of nastiness) songs with appropriately lewd lyrics. it ultimately caused an outrage to the point that "As Nasty As They Wanna Be" was soooo profane and obscene that Courts in some states ruled against selling the album and actually arrested owners record stores that did.

Fast-forward 20 years and HipHop "Artistes" are doing far worse with profanity, sexually explicitly explicit (as-in real-deal explicit obscene) and are winning awards and recording enormous sales worldwide. The same society that Banned such music is now comfortable enough to see it as Morally Acceptable (Not Morally Right). The Content, Meaning and Value of the songs have not changed one bit from 20 years ago, but most people are no longer shocked and actually listen to it without prejudice. Once an action is considered Morally Wrong, it can come to general Moral Acceptance later but it still does not change the fact that it is Morally Wrong.

Morally Wrong actions can become the norm if it is supported by  (God's or Society's) Law or the absence of it. Morally Right actions tend to be established through knowledge and enlightenment.

You must forgive me, I just read through my post and it is not a neat knit (black and white) but there you have it.

Thanks Lager. In a general sense, I think you're on the money.

The bolded point is of utmost interest to me. I'm not thoroughly convinced that the moral classification of a particular action can defy time, circumstance and culture - because the 'definition' or should I say perception of what is moral, I think, is not truly universal. And you rightly noted, morality is constantly evolving with the acquisition of knowledge. However, I do readily agree, for the majority of issues, we all agree on what's right & wrong.

Which brings me to my second question for you. In your opinion (and feel free to speculate as well) -
Can an action be considered morally wrong by us humans, but from God's perspective, not? or is there is a middle ground? or in other words, is our moral scale also the same as God's? Can God sanction a morally wrong action? if yes, why would He? would it then be justified because the order came from God? Parts of the Law/commandments/OT present us with these problems.

lagerwhenindoubt:


I shall (think it safe to) assume nearly everyone (Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Pagans, Traditionalists and Free-thinkers) is at least familiar with the 10 Commandments of Bible Literature (even if some may not know each one by instruction)

I shall summarize for the purpose of brevity; the 10 Commandments is a list of religious and moral imperatives that, (according to the Hebrew Bible) were given by God to the Israelite from Mount Sinai or Horeb.  an inscription on two stone tablets which God wrote with his finger and gave to Moses.

The 10 Commandments are recognized as a moral foundation in Judaism and Christianity.

The 10 Commandments declare the Lord, who brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt, to be God; prohibit having other gods before the Lord, and making or worshiping idols; threaten punishment for those who reject the Lord and promise love for those who love him; forbid misuse of the Lord's name; demand observance of the Sabbath and honoring one's parents; prohibit killing, adultery, theft, false testimony, and coveting of one's neighbor's goods.

That said, Did God write the 10 Commandments and why would he need to?

We are clearly told that the Fallen Man (Adam and Eve) possessed the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Conscience or Still Small Voice) and basically had the framework for a guiding sense of Morality.

Why did God not give them such Laws? Must Morality be derived from God? 

Is the responsibility to determine what is right and wrong a function of God's Divine Law?

Are our actions Morally Right or Wrong because God says so?

Do we need a Law-Maker and a Law-Giver to know what is Morally Wrong or Right.

When I look at similar 10 commandments of Allah, it still bears the same obviously simple concepts of Morality that even non-Muslims and non-Christians can agree with.

Do we need God to tell us what is Morally Right and Wrong? in such Strict Terms?

Thank you for your time

@lagerwhenindoubt

^{Posting this against my better judgment - should be in bed}

Lager’ “Je ka daale, ka tu sha” literally means Lager’ lets have another look from the beginning and re-evaluate

To begin with, it needs to be recognised that, from the beginning to-date,

that the crux of the whole matter had nothing to do with the moral but rather with faith (i.e. belief)

The whole affair started with only one “Thou shall not . . .” (i.e. Thou should not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil)

before the ten “Thou shall nots” (i.e. the 10 Commandments) that followed suit.

There was no moral code or moral values then. Morality had not kicked in and it was no big deal

because what mattered there and then was only what God says (i.e. God's word is law) and His standard

Only God is good and the just shall live, by faith . . .

Now, if one decided to bite the bullet, to take one’s destiny in one’s hand, then . . .

Can one have one’s cake and eat it?

How can one make sense of good if one has no knowledge of evil and vice versa?

How can one make out good if one has not experienced evil and vice versa?

How can one decode good if one has not been exposed to evil and vice versa?

The end of running this course eventually and undoubtedly will lead to the 10 commandments

God should not be in any dock for the 10 Commandments but rather Adam and Eve should

Adam and Eve threw caution to the wind.

They miscalculated and their contradictory desires and craving laid the concrete for the coming up 10 Commandments

This is what the Lord GOD declares:
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."

The 10 commandments is one of the gifts out of the pandora box Adam and Eve opened

The route that Adam and Eve got off on, led to the 10 commandments

Nothing to do with God. God was only obliging . . .

Lagerwhenindoubt, you put forward the question “Did God write the 10 Commandments and why would he need to?”

Yes He did, and as a matter of fact, in a way the 10 commandments is actually symbolic.

Symbolic in the sense that, on one hand it denotes “The cross” (i.e. faith in Jesus on the cross and not the law)

and on the other hand it represents “relationships” (i.e. our dealings with God vertically, parents centrally and fellow men laterally)

Lager’ cast your mind back as far as to Cain and Abel (i.e. Gen 4:6-7) for ". . . why would God he need to?"

Gen 4:6-7 BBE:


⁶And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad?

⁷If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Romans 3:20 BBE:


Because by the works of the law no man is able to have righteousness in his eyes, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin

- Brb - _{Lights out zzzZZZZ}

PS: GOD and LORD was used a lot in your posting. Research on the meaning of the two words

I'm here cuz I miss JeSoul and I wanna take a break from being naughty. Also there's the thread.

Leaving my skepticism aside, I'd say the use of the Ten Commandments is in its eternalness. I believe Jews have upwards of six hundred odd laws they keep. Or is it six thousand? I forget. The Ten Commandments seem to have this air of 'no matter what happens, or how sophisticated you humans become, these laws can never become old fashioned or unnecessary.' That's a probable reason to me.

It'll never be right (outside of a greater good) to: kill, lie, steal, be covetous, philander etc.

Morality is quite dynamic but not wholly so. It is also a rigid thing with absolutes. I enjoyed Toneyb's first post. It contains similar thoughts to a book I read and agree with.

To JeSoul's trick question: Yes! It is not only possible, it is almost ALWAYS the case. That's why we say things like refined, barbaric, developed. It doesn't mean good or evil, it just means morality is evolving. Getting more colourful and richer and with more nuances. Going back in time, there would be lesser colours till things became black and white. An eye for an eye, that kinda thing. This is regards us though. But in God's eyes, it is another can of worms and it has shaped my opinion of Him for better or for worse.

e36991. You have not daaled and tu sha. You have tu sha and daaled o

the question should be, why was god able to write the 10 commandments unto tablets himself but was unable to do same with his supposed book, the bible? maybe he was too lazy or he just had a bad case of writer's block. i mean, if he was able to inscribe 2 stone tablets for moses with the 10 commandments, why not spend a bit more time and inscribe the whole bible? now wouldn't that have avoided a whole lot of interpretation disputes? who would have argued with god? it would have been unequivocal and final. and just think of the millions of innocents who have been killed due to false bible interpretations, from the crusades to the horrible spanish inquisition. they could all have been spared if god had spared us a few hours of his time. from the ten commandment story, it implies god can write hebrew. why stop there? why not keep going a bit more. he could have inscribed the whole bible on mount sinai, permanently etched for all to see, including subsequent generations. too hard?? atleast that would spare christians the endless task of spending all their lives defending god and proffering their interpretations of god's possible reasons for doing or not doing anything.

guess the most logical answer is god didn't write jack because he/she/it can't read and write. to write he needs hands; to read he needs eyes. some fear crazed desert nomad control freak wrote down this babble in order to keep control of his group. time to set aside superstitions and abandon a bronze age paradigm meant for goat herders and camel breeders.

simply put, god is just a make believe character in a really old story book. the christain cult is all about money and control or can you christians pls tell me how your devil can accomplish so much when he has zero churches and collects zero dollars nor a percentage of your hard earned cash? devil = no money at all. bible god character has 350,000 churches in the US alone, collecting billions tax free every week. it looks to me like god needs to hire Satan to run his operation. satan obviously gets things done with zero dollars. either, 1. god does not exist  or 2. god doesnt give a flying fuk about his brain dead followers. which is it christards? how far down in the superstition quagmire can your ignorant blind faith take you?

vescucci:


e36991. You have not daaled and tu sha. You have tu sha and daaled o

@vescucci

Vescucci, my friend. Just came down for a nightcap . . .

So you sabi "Yoruba, Yoruba" . . .

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

Can someone please tell me what is the moral value of commandment number 10. The almighty, omnipotent, omniscient god Yahweh's final commandment to all mankind, written in stone! The punishment for anyone caught breaking this commandment is of course death.

Is this really as ridiculous as it sounds or is there a deeper meaning to it?

@e36991

@e36991. I am already Yoruba Yoruba

My appreciation for those who stayed up late to make a contribution. it speaks volumes.

To quote my petulant colleague who nearly dozed off at my desk reading this thread

It is a simple matter to discuss too seriously, why do you figure kids who go to church have a better chance of staying out of trouble than those who do not?

I shall deal with him when he exhibits such rare moments of presumption

@Mudley313 and @mantraa
I used the Christian God and Muslim Allah for popular reasons but for me, it matters not which Religion or Faith/Belief-system, each has its Commandments to guide its followers on what is Right and What is Wrong. As much as I'd hate to admit, The "Gods" have a pervading influence on the Morality of Man, be it Christianity, Islam or Judaism that despite cultural/social/psychological evolution well over 1000 yrs, we are still faced with a moral dilemma - is the rise in moral decadence we see in today's society as a result of a departure from God's Law or as a result of keeping it? it seems we are doomed to moral imperfection no matter how enlightened and knowledgeable we become.

@e36991

that the crux of the whole matter had nothing to do with the moral but rather with faith (i.e. belief)

Please hold that thought. I shall be back in a few minutes

@JeSoul

Can an action be considered morally wrong by us humans, but from God's perspective, not? or is there is a middle ground? or in other words, is our moral scale also the same as God's? Can God sanction a morally wrong action? if yes, why would He? would it then be justified because the order came from God? Parts of the Law/commandments/OT present us with these problems.

I am in agreement with that; naturally our moral scale is different in character but similar in nature to God's and yes God has sanctioned morally wrong actions (now that is unsettling) Why would he? It is difficult to fathom the purpose behind his behavior so i cannot in all honesty give you an objective answer on that. but see quote below on why it is a problem for me.

Chronicles 21:15
"And God sent an angle into Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and HE REPENTED HIM OF THE EVIL, and said to the angel that destroyed, "It is enough, stay now thine hand." And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

If I can accept a God of Absolutes then he cannot be seen to be hesitant in his disposition to Right and Wrong, If he is Relative then his ways are not Unchanging. which will negate the concept of his Eternalness. I understand much has changed since the Jesus Souls Repurchase arrangement.

@e36991

that the crux of the whole matter had nothing to do with the moral but rather with faith (i.e. belief)

Interesting, this brings a new perspective to my initial thoughts on the issue. God's Commandments represent His Moral Standards (his WILL is LAW) and if we are to live according to his will, we must uphold them totally (no slacking or slouching). After the Fall of Man, it became a daunting task to uphold his WILL perfectly thus the natural instinctive attraction to building personal (individual) and social morals (code of ethics and belief systems). I guess we can mostly agree that this has failed (woefully).

Curiously, even among religious folk, it is more likely to express morally right actions to people you feel some kinship with than those you do not and to apply morals based on situations rather than as a Standard.

It brings me back to my moral dilemma, God's Law has not enhanced Man's morals when Man does not (apparently) have the liver to uphold it. How do we get past this impediment.

check out the video in the link below. the monkeys in it didn't need a ten commandment or religion to possess attributes of morality

http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/the-science-of-monkey-morality-23310047

religion is obviously just a tool to manipulate the masses. even animals have morals to an extent and can see what is right and what is wrong. or do you also believe the earth is only 10,000 years old? a man lived in a fish for three days? every single species EVER created was hauled onto an ark ALONG with it's opposite gender? well, then again, a lady lived in a shoe with like 12 kids, so who am I to judge? right mother goose?

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai to serve as the moral code of behavior for the Jews. Those are general laws. You can find a more thorough composition of Jewish law in Leviticus.

mantraa:

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

Can someone please tell me what is the moral value of commandment number 10. The almighty, omnipotent, omniscient god Yahweh's final commandment to all mankind, written in stone! The punishment for anyone caught breaking this commandment is of course death.

Is this really as ridiculous as it sounds or is there a deeper meaning to it?

Non of them will touch this. . . .Thou shall not seethe a kid in his mother's milk, eh?. . . .No be small thing. . .

@mazaje ka manta da maganan. If it has remained a mystery this long why would it be revealed now?

mantraa:


10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

Can someone please tell me what is the moral value of commandment number 10.

The almighty, omnipotent, omniscient god Yahweh's final commandment to all mankind, written in stone!

The punishment for anyone caught breaking this commandment is of course death.

Is this really as ridiculous as it sounds or is there a deeper meaning to it?

mazaje:


Non of them will touch this . . . Thou shall not seethe a kid in his mother's milk, eh? . . . No be small thing . . .

lagerwhenindoubt:


@mazaje
ka manta da maganan. If it has remained a mystery this long why would it be revealed now?

@^^^

Pftt! Mystery my foot. Dont indulge.

Delusions. Figment of the imagination . . . and it culminated to showing up the person behind it.

This is nothing more than an outright and blatant display of ignorance

Instead of putting the person responsible for this theological faux pas in place, the shocking ignorance will be allowed to slide . . .

The perpetrator can stew a bit more in the ignorance because the pearls are being tightly held onto

"The punishment for anyone caught breaking this commandment is of course death" - Porkies; Mazaje spreading a false report

"Can someone please tell me what is the moral value of commandment number 10" -  Bible 101. My fingers are laughing