Can somebody pls make sense here!Here are some basic facts that is worth knowing for those who want to know the truth,firstly do u know that the name ODUDUWA is a BENIN name if not what does it mean in yoruba.Another one is that it is the OBA of BENIN THAT CROWNS THE Ooni OF IFE during coronation.CAN A LOWER SEAT CROWN A HIGHER ONE.THE OBA OF BENIN STOOL IS HIGHER that is why he crwons the Ooni of IFE

Katsumoto:

Oba Ovonramwen was the Oba of Benin when the British sacked Benin in 1897 in what would be known as the Punitive Expedition. He was exiled to Calabar where he would live until his death in 1914.

Bastards!!!  Not you, Katz. Am talking about el gringo.  Sons of Satan!    I feel a little better.  Not.   

honeric01:
I would like to know which of these 2 main kingdoms (talking of the main Yoruba kingdom at that time and the Bini kingdom) is the oldest?

PhysicsQED:
I would say Ife.

I can't reach that conclusion just yet, Scientific one.  The Bini monarchs have a longer and more detailed account of their reign going back at least 3 times as long as the history of the the Obas in Yorubaland, specifically, Ile-Ife, and Eko, with which I'm more familiar.  I have yet to see a full account of the Eko Obas going back beyond the mid 1600s.  Conversely, the Binis can tell us about their kings going back to gbongbonron.

@isale_gan2
Thanks for these infos, they really got some interesting findings.

Katsumoto:

There were several Yoruba Kingdoms but there was one Benin Kingdom. It is difficult to ascertain which Kingdoms came first. We know Oranmiyan did not found Benin and we also know that there were Yoruba people at Ife under Oreluere before Oduduwa arrived at Ife. In fact there were at least five documented rulers at Ife before Oduduwa. At Benin, the First Ogiso (King) was Igodo and the 31st Ogiso was Owodo who also happened to be Ekaladerhan's father and the last Ogiso before Oba Eweka the 1ST.

According to Oral traditions, Orunmila is the father of the Yoruba and he had 16 children whom he sent to rule over 16 Yoruba kingdoms including Bini (originally called Ado). Without knowing which of the kids were sent out first and where to, I can't ascertain yet which kingdom came first. But my research continues.

The links Isale gan posted's got alot of information for us and these info on these sites speaks alot of the bini kingdom, i think the Bini kingdom came first, i mean with all the details on ground, the bini kingdom have more documented backings to assert this. maybe someone might want to help us with some relevant info to the Yoruba heritage just like we have for the binis?

Also i think most of the sculptures the binis have appear older and longer than the yorubas, someone should prove me wrong with some facts backed up with at least series of authentic articles (pls no wikipedia oo).

PhysicsQED:


I would say Ife. There is supposed to be archeological evidence of very early pavements and pottery there which I think is earlier than Benin. I'll need to search for the original source/article of the info though. That is however just habitation. The real question might also be, which one existed as a centralized state first, which is more uncertain because the Ogisos, whether there were only 300 years of Ogisos or an even longer reign of Ogisos before the late 12th century when the Eweka dynasty started, have been confirmed by Esan and Urhobos as the previous Benin rulers. Furthermore a process of building defensive earthworks that would later continue under Benin started around the northern Bini area and the southern Esan area quite early (700 AD) but this does not prove conclusively Benin's existence as a centralized state at that time, although it supports it. Ife as a centralized state can probably be proven to be earlier with archeology though. I'll look around and see what I can find.

You would say? maybe you should help us with more details on how you arrived at that, some sculptures older than that of bini can go along way to support your stand, you know pictures don't lie, the bini history is very well grounded compared to some of the other kingdoms in ancient Nigeria.

bright007:

Can somebody pls make sense here!Here are some basic facts that is worth knowing for those who want to know the truth,firstly do u know that the name ODUDUWA is a BENIN name if not what does it mean in yoruba.Another one is that it is the OBA of BENIN THAT CROWNS THE Ooni OF IFE during coronation.CAN A LOWER SEAT CROWN A HIGHER ONE.THE OBA OF BENIN STOOL IS HIGHER that is why he crwons the Ooni of IFE

Interesting, but how true can this be?

the benin bronzes were heavily influenced by the arrival of the portuguese in the 16th century.

the ife sculptures predate that time.


it's not rocket science.

honeric01:

@isale_gan2
  Thanks for these infos, they really got some interesting findings.

The links Isale gan posted's got alot of information for us and these info on these sites speaks alot of the bini kingdom, i think the Bini kingdom came first, i mean with all the details on ground, the bini kingdom have more documented backings to assert this. maybe someone might want to help us with some relevant info to the Yoruba heritage just like we have for the binis?

(pls no wikipedia oo).

Can you please explain to us why the links provided by Isale gan are credible enough for you and Wikipedia is not.
You don't know the authors of these websites the same way you don't know the authors of Wikipedia, or is it just a case of, if it does't support your argument then it's not credible.

Err erm!  Before anyone gets into an argument over any links posted by me, I did not authenticate the contents of the site or the opinion therein.  I only wanted to post pictures.  And found the items I posted.

I can't get into a debate about it at this time.  I've got no leg to stand on. 

However, I also did say I have not seen convincing evidence that shows Oduduwa line of Yoruba kingdoms of Eko and Ile-Ife came before the Bini monarchy of Oduduwa's people.  It doesn't mean Yoruba society, history and religion does not deserve its esteemable place in world history.

The issue at hand is, which oft-discussed Oduduwa monarchy/lineage predates which?  Specifically, the ones of Ife or Bini, since they are so intertwined.  At least, that's what I understand the query to be.

P.S.: I'm a champion, advocate and proponent of Yoruba culture and traditions.  But not at the expense of anyone else the truth.  Don't get the wrong idea. 

^^^^^^

If I had any questions regarding your post, I would have directed it at you. I was merely pointing out the duplicity in Honeric's post.

Oh, no worries.

Carry on.

isale_gan2:

Bastards!!!  Not you, Katz. Am talking about el gringo.  Sons of Satan!    I feel a little better.  Not.   

I can't reach that conclusion just yet, Scientific one.  The Bini monarchs have a longer and more detailed account of their reign going back at least 3 times as long as the history of the the Obas in Yorubaland, specifically, Ile-Ife, and Eko, with which I'm more familiar.  I have yet to see a full account of the Eko Obas going back beyond the mid 1600s.  Conversely, the Binis can tell us about their kings going back to gbongbonron.     

Yes the Lagos/Eko monarchy was later, but that's not really a point of debate since that's well known.

I'm not too familiar with the origins of Ife Obas, but there were supposed to be 5 rulers of Ife before Oduduwa (11th or 12th century). When exactly Ife became a centralized kingdom is still not certain but I'm looking for more info.

honeric01:

@isale_gan2
Thanks for these infos, they really got some interesting findings.

The links Isale gan posted's got alot of information for us and these info on these sites speaks alot of the bini kingdom, i think the Bini kingdom came first, i mean with all the details on ground, the bini kingdom have more documented backings to assert this. maybe someone might want to help us with some relevant info to the Yoruba heritage just like we have for the binis?

lol, this is not really logical. Because you read more stories and more detailed stories of the origin of one kingdom you then conclude that it came before another kingdom you haven't read much of?

But your request for people to post more relevant info on Yoruba kingdom origins is quite reasonable. Hopefully someone will supply us with detailed, sourced information.

Also i think most of the sculptures the binis have appear older and longer than the yorubas, someone should prove me wrong with some facts backed up with at least series of authentic articles (pls no wikipedia oo).

Uh, no. Virtually every Benin artwork is younger than every Ife artwork, although some Benin artwork is older than some of Owo's.

You would say? maybe you should help us with more details on how you arrived at that, some sculptures older than that of bini can go along way to support your stand, you know pictures don't lie, the bini history is very well grounded compared to some of the other kingdoms in ancient Nigeria.

A simple google search of Ife sculptures vs. Benin sculptures would easily show that Ife art is older than Benin art but this is not an artwork thread and this is tangential and irrelevant because earlier artwork does not prove which kingdom came first. . There were numerous kingdoms in Africa and Nigera with no sculptural tradition or major art tradition, some of which preceded both Ife and Benin.

Anways, Ife sculptors are traditionally held to have been brought to Benin in the 14th century

Interesting, but how true can this be?

It's not. He's just making stuff up.

Aigbofa:

Can you please explain to us why the links provided by Isale gan are credible enough for you and Wikipedia is not.
You don't know the authors of these websites the same way you don't know the authors of Wikipedia, or is it just a case of, if it does't support your argument then it's not credible.

Because the content in a website can be accountable to the author which can be easily traced unlike the ones on wikipedia where ANYONE can edit, modify or even corrupt ANY article written by ANYONE on wikipedia.  now you see one of the reasons?

PhysicsQED:


lol, this is not really logical. Because you read more stories and more detailed stories of the origin of one kingdom you then conclude that it came before another kingdom you haven't read much of?

But your request for people to post more relevant info on Yoruba kingdom origins is quite reasonable. Hopefully someone will supply us with detailed, sourced information.






Uh, no. Virtually every Benin artwork is younger than every Ife artwork, although some Benin artwork is older than some of Owo's.


A simple google search of Ife sculptures vs. Benin sculptures would easily show that Ife art is older than Benin art but this is not an artwork thread and this is tangential and irrelevant because earlier artwork does not prove which kingdom came first. . There were numerous kingdoms in Africa and Nigera with no sculptural tradition or major art tradition, some of which preceded both Ife and Benin.

Anways, Ife sculptors are traditionally held to have been brought to Benin in the 14th century


It's not. He's just making stuff up.

like i said, it's not just because you said so, i want to see facts that makes your point more valid than those of a hearsayer. i mean its difficult to say i am older than you without any birth certificate or SSN to prove that, so maybe you should help us with some detailed and GENERALLY AGREED VALID "fact" why you think what you wrote is the truth.


Now, why would you say the dude's making things up? got reasons for that? (valid ones).

We obviously do not have enough info to discredit or accept anyone's opinion for now or do you have any? i am yet to get any valid source, link, article or whatever that supports your stand so far so good, so i can as well conclude that you're making things up too right?

Aigbofa:

Can you please explain to us why the links provided by Isale gan are credible enough for you and Wikipedia is not.
You don't know the authors of these websites the same way you don't know the authors of Wikipedia, or is it just a case of, if it does't support your argument then it's not credible.

A wiki version of Yoruba history is not really a good idea, actually. It would be much better to track down original sources. Anyone can give a slant to or misconstrue something and then cite the article they are talking about without people being able to access the original article to see if the wiki summary of its contents or statements is actually accurate.

A good example of this outside of wiki is the badly researched, ill-thought out article by Bolaji Aluko "Cultural Wars and National Identity: The saga of the Yoruba and the Bini-Edo" which makes the very mistake I pointed out of claiming that Oba Erediauwa claimed the Yoruba "progenitor" was a runaway Bini prince, despite the fact that what Oba Erediauwa actually wrote had no relation to such an idea.

This is one of several of Aluko's poor quality articles, another is his massively inaccurate article on the Benin Empire and the slave trade. So you're absolutely right that we can't just accept any article written by anybody like honeric01 might have, but it's precisely because, as you pointed out, this applies to some of the articles on the site isale gan gave links from as much as it does to wikipedia, that we should try to leave wikipedia out of this. There are other inaccuracies on African history on wikipedia, so there's no reason to assume what's up on this particular topic will be accurate either.

^^^^^^
What do you make of this?
http://www.edo-nation.net/ekal.htm

honeric01:

^^^^^^
  What do you make of this?
  http://www.edo-nation.net/ekal.htm

Doesn't prove anything. It's already known that Oduduwa was some Eastern (to Ife) prince.


I'm still looking for more  definitive and convincing evidence for either side though. And for more info on Ife's earliest times.

^ Please provide links and credible sources. I'm madly interested in learning the true history of the Yoruba.

Mucha gracias

Google books
http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=yoruba

Book from 1890s, "Yoruba-Speaking Peoples. . ."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/index.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor02.htm

There's lots more references out there, of course. When I have the opportunity, I will post more. Maybe others will do the same. I'll see if there's already a thread that we can simply update periodically as we locate more data, articles, books, etc., we want to share. It'll be good if we can do this for other groups in Nigeria (or Africa) so no one is left out.

This is confusing, is odudua a male or female or is this odudua different from oduduwa?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm

honeric01:

This is confusing, is odudua a male or female or is this odudua different from oduduwa?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm

I just typed a long message to you, but NL timed me out.  Here's a summary:

Question about gender of Oduduwa:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-207887.32.html.

Recommended books:
Robert Smith's Kingdoms of the Yoruba, 1969.
Samuel Johnson's History of the Yorubas.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=564090.msg7299137#msg7299137

I advice utilizing books on Google or elsewhere, more than anything else, if you can't get your hands on the actual books.  Internet articles less so.  I hope your education is not being derailed.  Am just trying to help - pointing out where I have found info. Lots more references out there. . .

honeric01:

This is confusing, is odudua a male or female or is this odudua different from oduduwa?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm

Don't be confused.

I suspect that site was setup by folks influenced by Diaspora Ifa/Yoruba Religion. I must confess, a lot of them do great work and are more passionate about Yoruba History than most Yoruba's that I know.

BUT, they get the history, names and roles wrong sometimes due to the syncretic nature of the Ifa diasporan religion which is why we sent Prof. Wande Abimbola to put them right.

Oduduwa is male.

Read about Baba Wande Abimbola here http://www.wandeabimbola.com/


For more knowledge about Our diaspora people and the great influence Yoruba Culture, History and Religion has across the world read Professor Olupona's book --> http://books.google.com/books?id=bZD-1kObnMQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=globalization+of+yoruba&source=bl&ots=zddosmy760&sig=kvdDP0TOBu6VtGfaYuXdmrDnmSA&hl=en#v=onepage&q=globalization%20of%20yoruba&f=false

It's not exhaustive but it's a good start. . .

Side note: Wikipedia is a good source of information, yes anyone can do a temporary edit but always look to the links and references below the page for authenticity.

@PhysicsQED great analysis! thanks for sharing bro.

EDIT: for google books link

PhysicsQED:

A wiki version of Yoruba history is not really a good idea, actually. It would be much better to track down original sources. Anyone can give a slant to or misconstrue something and then cite the article they are talking about without people being able to access the original article to see if the wiki summary of its contents or statements is actually accurate.

A good example of this outside of wiki is the badly researched, ill-thought out article by Bolaji Aluko "Cultural Wars and National Identity: The saga of the Yoruba and the Bini-Edo" which makes the very mistake I pointed out of claiming that Oba Erediauwa claimed the Yoruba "progenitor" was a runaway Bini prince, despite the fact that what Oba Erediauwa actually wrote had no relation to such an idea.

This is one of several of Aluko's poor quality articles, another is his massively inaccurate article on the Benin Empire and the slave trade. So you're absolutely right that we can't just accept any article written by anybody like honeric01 might have, but it's precisely because, as you pointed out, this applies to some of the articles on the site isale gan gave links from as much as it does to wikipedia, that we should try to leave wikipedia out of this. There are other inaccuracies on African history on wikipedia, so there's no reason to assume what's up on this particular topic will be accurate either.

Spot on.

All groups are entitled to their own narrative. The Yoruba narrative is that the first Ife was the point where land rose above the waters and started to Fe or expand, established by Obatala, some say he was the first to speak (Iba o!) From whom humanity spread over all the Earth. For some reasons, Obatala is seen as Oba of Iranje a place where no town is named after in Yoruba land, this is remarkable because even Ogotun the city of Olodumare has doubles in Ekiti and Edo.

We have had thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years of history. Our ancestors started off as star trekkers, so our history is not based on Oduduwa who came probably in the 7th century and was made King in Ife, any human being can be made King if the oracle so directs. 90 kings had ruled in Ile Ife before he arrived, obviously at the beginning of the 10059th year calendar of the present Yoruba. I will not accept he was a Benin man because he told Ife people he was a Meccan, a descendant of Nimrod, another man they may describe himself as a descendant of Nimrod was a man like Nebuchadnezar, it was common practice for Pre Mohammed and pre Christian middle east monarchs to claim descent from Nimrod or Osiris. The man was made King in Ife and all kingdoms who saw Ife as their origin received princes from Ife, some people did not agree and they withdrew to the hills, I believe my ancestors did not agree and they withdrew to a new Ijero named after the ancient empire but any duly recognised Ife remains the Ife. We are now Ijesha.
The Benin agreed and received a new prince who left in anger and his infant son was made Oba in Benin with the title Omo ni Oba ni Edo, the child is the King in Benin, Oranyan the Prince went back to Ife to raise an army to invade Mecca, he was prevailed upon to let btgones be bygones but he refused, he amassed a huge army and set out for Mecca but stopped at the River Niger because the Ibariba were massed against him where he was reinforced by his elder brother Orangun, then by the Nupe, they settled there and built a city since returning empty handed to Ife may have been shameful. Thus Oyo was founded which later became the dominant empire in West Africa up till the 18th century before the bulk of the people relocated down south to regroup and confront the Jihadists that dislodged them. This is why I don't believe the Benin account of the origin of Oduduwa. The Benin are entitled to their narrative though but they should never forget that early Benin Kings were Eastern Yoruba people who spoke only Yoruba in their courts and to their children and no one ever dared address a Benin royalty in Edo, whether the Obi Onitsha, Oba of Ogba land, Obi Ussele Ukwu or the Oba of Benin himself. The most popular Oba of Benin was an Ogun incarnate, Ogun Ewuare but Benin or Edo history predates by far the Benin empire just like the history of all groups in Nigeria.

Any group that has had organisation from the beginning of time or for a very long time should have oral history which is more valid than written history that contradicts each other. All should cherish and preserve theirs.

The Yorubas and Benins might be related. That's it. No need for superiority and whatever argument. In the event of a Nigerian split the Benins will decide what they want to do. They don't need help from nobody. And we Yorubas are not looking for new applicants. Its that simple. Stop the childishness.

Btw: No tribe and I mean NO TRIBE under the Sun is superior to the Omo Oduduwas. I will leave it at that.

Capt. Fisifun.

bright007:

Can somebody pls make sense here!Here are some basic facts that is worth knowing for those who want to know the truth,firstly do u know that the name ODUDUWA is a BENIN name if not what does it mean in yoruba.Another one is that it is the OBA of BENIN THAT CROWNS THE Ooni OF IFE during coronation.CAN A LOWER SEAT CROWN A HIGHER ONE.THE OBA OF BENIN STOOL IS HIGHER that is why he crwons the Ooni of IFE

What does Oduduwa mean in Benin? Go ahead tell us.

All these stories of who came from where and who came first is all tales by moonlight without detailed documentation. Therefore, in light of this reality EVERYONE should choose whatever narrative that sheds good light on their tribe without disrespecting another tribe. But if you insist my tribe came from your tribe than I MUST insist that your tribe came from my tribe. And we will continue to argue from now till Kingdom come. O ya make u na go sleep.

Oduduwa is Yoruba in etymology. The original Oduduwa was a female deity, wife of Obatala, well preserved by some Yoruba sub nations. The name was given to the Meccan obvioisly because the oracle led to the name after consultation. The Meccan was not the first person to be named Oduduwa among the Yoruba. People should do a little bit of research before putting pen to paper. If there is a Benin name of Oduduwa, that was not the one that came up during Ifa consultation., our own Oduduwa is from Ifa not from Benin,

I CONCUR. NICE SUBMISSION. THUMB UP

lawani:
All groups are entitled to their own narrative. The Yoruba narrative is that the first Ife was the point where land rose above the waters and started to Fe or expand, established by Obatala, some say he was the first to speak (Iba o!) From whom humanity spread over all the Earth. For some reasons, Obatala is seen as Oba of Iranje a place where no town is named after in Yoruba land, this is remarkable because even Ogotun the city of Olodumare has doubles in Ekiti and Edo.

We have had thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years of history. Our ancestors started off as star trekkers, so our history is not based on Oduduwa who came probably in the 7th century and was made King in Ife, any human being can be made King if the oracle so directs. 90 kings had ruled in Ile Ife before he arrived, obviously at the beginning of the 10059th year calendar of the present Yoruba. I will not accept he was a Benin man because he told Ife people he was a Meccan, a descendant of Nimrod, another man they may describe himself as a descendant of Nimrod was a man like Nebuchadnezar, it was common practice for Pre Mohammed and pre Christian middle east monarchs to claim descent from Nimrod or Osiris. The man was made King in Ife and all kingdoms who saw Ife as their origin received princes from Ife, some people did not agree and they withdrew to the hills, I believe my ancestors did not agree and they withdrew to a new Ijero named after the ancient empire but any duly recognised Ife remains the Ife. We are now Ijesha.
The Benin agreed and received a new prince who left in anger and his infant son was made Oba in Benin with the title Omo ni Oba ni Edo, the child is the King in Benin, Oranyan the Prince went back to Ife to raise an army to invade Mecca, he was prevailed upon to let btgones be bygones but he refused, he amassed a huge army and set out for Mecca but stopped at the River Niger because the Ibariba were massed against him where he was reinforced by his elder brother Orangun, then by the Nupe, they settled there and built a city since returning empty handed to Ife may have been shameful. Thus Oyo was founded which later became the dominant empire in West Africa up till the 18th century before the bulk of the people relocated down south to regroup and confront the Jihadists that dislodged them. This is why I don't believe the Benin account of the origin of Oduduwa. The Benin are entitled to their narrative though but they should never forget that early Benin Kings were Eastern Yoruba people who spoke only Yoruba in their courts and to their children and no one ever dared address a Benin royalty in Edo, whether the Obi Onitsha, Oba of Ogba land, Obi Ussele Ukwu or the Oba of Benin himself. The most popular Oba of Benin was an Ogun incarnate, Ogun Ewuare but Benin or Edo history predates by far the Benin empire just like the history of all groups in Nigeria.

Any group that has had organisation from the beginning of time or for a very long time should have oral history which is more valid than written history that contradicts each other. All should cherish and preserve theirs.