whitelotus:




You are missing the point. The fact that islam is the fastest growing religion has nothing to do with whether islam is true.

What am I saying,what are you saying?I hope you are not high on crack

sulasa07:

What am I saying,what are you saying?I hope you are not high on crack

Do you think that every non muslim is an alcohol/drug intoxicated person?

No wonder you are too angry and intolerant to understand my point.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.'

Sahih Muslim 8:3310

The reality is that child marriage happens all over
the world, regardless of religion or civilisation. But
it appears that Islam suffers the most compared to
other faiths and cultures.
In 2019, the deputy grand Imam of AlAzhar issued a fatwa placing the minimum age at 18. This is issued by the deputy Imam who is regarded by many Muslims to be the highest authority of Islamic jurisprudence. Child marriage is a global problem, critics of Islam love attaching it to the religion and citing the Prophet's marriage to Aisha as example. It has to be understood that those were different times. Nomadic Arabia of then lived a life far from comfortable; there was the fierce weather, the harsh landscape totally unsuitable for farming, tribal warfare which sometimes went on for years. These are all recipes for low life expectancy. You can't really compare the life of then with now. In light of these, recent studies have shown age of maturity varies, it's never constant, it's not a straight line graph.
Islam has specified
the age of physical maturity but it has not
specified the age of mental maturity. Rather, it
has left it open to the discretion of the parents
and children themselves.

And on the issue of Aisha's (R.A) marriage, there have been argument that
the hadith appears much later after the demise of
the Prophet. In-depth studies by reliable scholars
clearly expose the fact that Aishah was not less
than 17 years old at the time of the marriage, and
consummated it at about 20. So, Aishah was not
below the age of puberty when consenting to the
marriage. Islamic marriages are
primarily contracts between two consenting
parties, referred to as mithaq. Consent means both parties are of age, it means both parties have full function of their mental faculties. It means they aren't children.

whitelotus:



Do you think that every non muslim is an alcohol/drug intoxicated person?

No wonder you are too angry and intolerant to understand my point.

Maybe you should return to the post and read from the beginning to understand what I was actually talking about n you will see what exactly you are replying me with

sulasa07:

Maybe you should return to the post and read from the beginning to understand what I was actually talking about n you will see what exactly you are replying me with

You are the one that should read the original post. I was replying someone else and you just hijacked the conversation like a terrorist

Kiddler:
The reality is that child marriage happens all over
the world, regardless of religion or civilisation. But
it appears that Islam suffers the most compared to
other faiths and cultures.
In 2019, the deputy grand Imam of AlAzhar issued a fatwa placing the minimum age at 18. This is issued by the deputy Imam who is regarded by many Muslims to be the highest authority of Islamic jurisprudence. Child marriage is a global problem, critics of Islam love attaching it to the religion and citing the Prophet's marriage to Aisha as example. It has to be understood that those were different times. Nomadic Arabia of then lived a life far from comfortable; there was the fierce weather, the harsh landscape totally unsuitable for farming, tribal warfare which sometimes went on for years. These are all recipes for low life expectancy. You can't really compare the life of then with now. In light of these, recent studies have shown age of maturity varies, it's never constant, it's not a straight line graph.
Islam has specified
the age of physical maturity but it has not
specified the age of mental maturity. Rather, it
has left it open to the discretion of the parents
and children themselves.

And on the issue of Aisha's (R.A) marriage, there have been argument that
the hadith appears much later after the demise of
the Prophet. In-depth studies by reliable scholars
clearly expose the fact that Aishah was not less
than 17 years old at the time of the marriage, and
consummated it at about 20. So, Aishah was not
below the age of puberty when consenting to the
marriage. Islamic marriages are
primarily contracts between two consenting
parties, referred to as mithaq. Consent means both parties are of age, it means both parties have full function of their mental faculties. It means they aren't children.

Aisha was less than the age of puberty, in one narration she mentioned her dolls, 17 or 18 year olds don't play with dolls

fortran12:


Aisha was less than the age of puberty, in one narration she mentioned her dolls, 17 or 18 year olds don't play with dolls

If you read my piece well I made mention of the issue being argued by scholars because the Hadith(s) appeared much long after the Prophet's death. If you also read it well I said age of maturity varies.

Kiddler:


If you read my piece well I made mention of the issue being argued by scholars because the Hadith(s) appeared much long after the Prophet's death. If you also read it well I said age of maturity varies.

Ok

fortran12:


Aisha was less than the age of puberty, in one narration she mentioned her dolls, 17 or 18 year olds don't play with dolls

First of all, don't mind critics like atheists and Christians. They are hypocrites. Those days, kings, high priests wealthy folks etc married young girls before prophet muhammad (saw) but Christians look the way to avoid blameworthiness. Whichever way the arguments take you'd still triumph against critics anytime they come up to criticize Islam on the prophet marriage to Aisha

Second, kiddler brother was fair in his analysis. We have debated this issue several times. The hadith of Aisha (ra) speaking about she was 6 when she was married and marriage was consummated when she was 9 itself may be valid but it's matn is false. The hadith contradicts few other ahadith. It is as simple as that.. You have brought one hadith about child playing with dolls. This means Aisha recognized a child when she seen one. Playing with doll is child habit.

In that case, Prophet Muhammad could not have married a child when he said we should train our children to pray salat at 7 and beat them for it when they reach 10yrs of age. This is the hadith that knocked out all irrelevant arguments to validate Hadith of Aisha married at 6




Prayer (Kitab Al-Salat)



Chapter: When A Boy Should Be Ordered To Offer As-Salat(26)




Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:



The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately.




Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 495
In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 105
English translation : Book 2, Hadith 495


If this Hadith recognizes 7 and 10 years old as a child, how could nabi Muhammad married a child?. This means that Hadith which says Aisha was 6 at the time of nikkah is false.. Very simple


Supreme argument and the Furqan is Quran. Qur'an calls wives of the prophet (saw) WOMEN



Surat al-Ahzab 33:59


O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments.....




This Ayah recognizes wives of the prophet as women and it doesn't address any of the prophet's wives as a child. Muslim children, either males or females, are trained by parents to pray when they reach age 7. This training starts soft with little discipline early on. The level of disciplinary measures are increased with age. Prayer itself does not become religiously mandatory upon the children until they reach the age of puberty. Other view is that, "ideally, your child will see the others praying around her and want to join in. I recommend encouraging them as soon as they can sit up. I used to put my newborn on his own rug next to mine while I prayed. As long as they can sit still and be respectful, they should be included in congregational prayer as well. If we don’t start taking our daughters to the Masjid, they will become even more unwelcoming to women than they already are.".

Empiree:
First of all, don't mind critics like atheists and Christians. They are hypocrites. Those days, kings, high priests wealthy folks etc married young girls before prophet muhammad (saw) but Christians look the way to avoid blameworthiness. Whichever way the arguments take you'd still triumph against critics anytime they come up to criticize Islam on the prophet marriage to Aisha

Second, kiddler brother was fair in his analysis. We have debated this issue several times. The hadith of Aisha (ra) speaking about she was 6 when she was married and marriage was consummated when she was 9 itself may be valid but it's matn is false. The hadith contradicts few other ahadith. It is as simple as that.. You have brought one hadith about child playing with dolls. This means Aisha recognized a child when she seen one. Playing with doll is child habit.

In that case, Prophet Muhammad could not have married a child when he said we should train our children to pray salat at 7 and beat them for it when they reach 10yrs of age. This is the hadith that knocked out all irrelevant arguments to validate Hadith of Aisha married at 6




Prayer (Kitab Al-Salat)



Chapter: When A Boy Should Be Ordered To Offer As-Salat(26)




Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:



The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately.




Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 495
In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 105
English translation : Book 2, Hadith 495


If this Hadith recognizes 7 and 10 years old as a child, how could nabi Muhammad married a child?. This means that Hadith which says Aisha was 6 at the time of nikkah is false.. Very simple


Supreme argument and the Furqan is Quran. Qur'an calls wives of the prophet (saw) WOMEN



Surat al-Ahzab 33:59


O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments.....




This Ayah recognizes wives of the prophet as women and it doesn't address any of the prophet's wives as a child. Muslim children, either males or females, are trained by parents to pray when they reach age 7. This training starts soft with little discipline early on. The level of disciplinary measures are increased with age. Prayer itself does not become religiously mandatory upon the children until they reach the age of puberty. Other view is that, "ideally, your child will see the others praying around her and want to join in. I recommend encouraging them as soon as they can sit up. I used to put my newborn on his own rug next to mine while I prayed. As long as they can sit still and be respectful, they should be included in congregational prayer as well. If we don’t start taking our daughters to the Masjid, they will become even more unwelcoming to women than they already are.".

Please show me where kings and high priests married children. Also the laws Mohammed set did not affect him, it was for the muslims not him. How many wives did he have and how many did he permit the rest to have?

Empiree:
First of all, don't mind critics like atheists and Christians. They are hypocrites. Those days, kings, high priests wealthy folks etc married young girls before prophet muhammad (saw) but Christians look the way to avoid blameworthiness. Whichever way the arguments take you'd still triumph against critics anytime they come up to criticize Islam on the prophet marriage to Aisha

Second, kiddler brother was fair in his analysis. We have debated this issue several times. The hadith of Aisha (ra) speaking about she was 6 when she was married and marriage was consummated when she was 9 itself may be valid but it's matn is false. The hadith contradicts few other ahadith. It is as simple as that.. You have brought one hadith about child playing with dolls. This means Aisha recognized a child when she seen one. Playing with doll is child habit.

In that case, Prophet Muhammad could not have married a child when he said we should train our children to pray salat at 7 and beat them for it when they reach 10yrs of age. This is the hadith that knocked out all irrelevant arguments to validate Hadith of Aisha married at 6




Prayer (Kitab Al-Salat)



Chapter: When A Boy Should Be Ordered To Offer As-Salat(26)




Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:



The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately.




Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 495
In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 105
English translation : Book 2, Hadith 495


If this Hadith recognizes 7 and 10 years old as a child, how could nabi Muhammad married a child?. This means that Hadith which says Aisha was 6 at the time of nikkah is false.. Very simple


Supreme argument and the Furqan is Quran. Qur'an calls wives of the prophet (saw) WOMEN



Surat al-Ahzab 33:59


O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments.....




This Ayah recognizes wives of the prophet as women and it doesn't address any of the prophet's wives as a child. Muslim children, either males or females, are trained by parents to pray when they reach age 7. This training starts soft with little discipline early on. The level of disciplinary measures are increased with age. Prayer itself does not become religiously mandatory upon the children until they reach the age of puberty. Other view is that, "ideally, your child will see the others praying around her and want to join in. I recommend encouraging them as soon as they can sit up. I used to put my newborn on his own rug next to mine while I prayed. As long as they can sit still and be respectful, they should be included in congregational prayer as well. If we don’t start taking our daughters to the Masjid, they will become even more unwelcoming to women than they already are.".

To summarise your argument, the prophet couldn't have married Aisha between 7-10.

However, 11 years is still not a good age for marriage.

fortran12:


Please show me where kings and high priests married children. Also the laws Mohammed set did not affect him, it was for the muslims not him. How many wives did he have and how many did he permit the rest to have?

Which religion denomination you belong?

fortran12:


Please show me where kings and high priests married children. Also the laws Mohammed set did not affect him, it was for the muslims not him. How many wives did he have and how many did he permit the rest to have?

I don't think anyone needs to show you the history of child marriage around the world that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, especially Europe in the middle ages. There is a whole wikipedia page about that. The misconception that child marriage is Islamic is completely false and I've seen across many forums where intellectual muslims are trying to explain this issue, but you'd often find resentful replies. Maybe it is from the desire to not understand anything about Islam or plain religious hate, I don't know.

The issue of the Prophet's wives is one of great study. Islam didn't invent polygamy, rather it made it more humane by advocating equal treatment across all the wives and the children. In fact a muslim is encouraged to marry one and if he thinks he is able to marry more then he goes ahead. Polygamy is not recommended in Islam, rather it is permitted under certain guidelines.

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three,
or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be
able to deal justly (with them), then only
one." (An-Nisaa’ 3:3)

Before Islam there was no upper limit to the women a man could marry, Islam put the cap at 4.

To the issue of the Prophet's many wives, you need to understand that ancient Arabia was made of groups of warring tribes--there were enemies and allies. Treaties were made almost every month. To cement the relations of the budding nation in a tribal society, it was customary to seal treaties
through marrying into tribes. The Prophet didn't just marry his wives out of lust or carnal reasons, if that was his intention he would have married long before his first marriage at the age of 25. In fact he wasn't at home most of the time as he was busy with his duties as a Prophet and bloodthirsty enemies at his heels. And besides, out of all the Prophet's wives only 4 were binded by a marriage ceremony / contract; which is another term for sexual interaction. It is also important to note that only one of the Prophet's wives (Aisha) was not previously married.

Here's a slight detail for the reasons of the Prophet's various marriages.
-Khadijah(R.A) was his first wife, she was 40 when they married. She bore him all his children except 1.
-Some marriages were to preserve the unity and alliances between certain tribes, like the marriages of Aishah(daughter of AbuBakr), Hafsah(daughter of Umar), Umm Habibah(daughter of Abu Sufyan).
-Juwairiyah, and Safiyah were captures from the war the pagans had waged on the muslims. The Prophet married these two women to show that captures must not be subject to inhumane treatment.
-Some women were subject to neglect and abandonment during those times, similar to the case of Umm Habibah who was a lonely exile and a grieving widow. She couldn't return to her father as he had become a fierce persecutor of muslims. When the Prophet heard of her case from the Christian King Negus, he married her.
-Umm Salamah was a widow who struggled to cater for her children. That time, the
Prophet was approaching the age of sixty. His
marriage to a widow with four children and
acceptance of all related expenses and
responsibilities can be understood only in terms
of his infinite reserves of humanity and
compassion.

The Prophet's marriages fostered relationships throughout Arabia, because the tribes his wives belonged to felt they were welcome to approach him on any issue, thus cementing the reasons for being social and political.

whitelotus:



To summarise your argument, the prophet couldn't have married Aisha between 7-10.

However, 11 years is still not a good age for marriage.

There is a difference in customs and difference in climates. It has been shown that children in hot climates mature earlier than those in cooler climes. And these kinds of marriages were predominant in Arabia then. Why? The nomadic Arabs had quite short lives. If the desert didn't kill you, the heat would, if you didn't die of hunger and thirst you'd be killed by raiders. The average life expectancy then was 40. Do you blame them for choosing to marry early? And you certainly can't pick an age then assume the child in question isn't mature. You may do that in this present age when you have an overall idea of what a human at 11 looks like.

Kiddler:

There is a difference in customs and difference in climates. It has been shown that children in hot climates mature earlier than those in cooler climes. And these kinds of marriages were predominant in Arabia then. Why? The nomadic Arabs had quite short lives. If the desert didn't kill you, the heat would, if you didn't die of hunger and thirst you'd be killed by raiders. The average life expectancy then was 40. Do you blame them for choosing to marry early? And you certainly can't pick an age then assume the child in question isn't mature. You may do that in this present age when you have an overall idea of what a human at 11 looks like.

It is of no wonder that a lot of females died in childbirth in the past.

11 year olds are not physically matured for pregnancy

Empiree:
Which religion denomination you belong?

See how dishonest some muslims are?

Why are you asking for his religion. Can you not defend your religion without looking for a way to attack another religion?

Kiddler:


I don't think anyone needs to show you the history of child marriage around the world that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, especially Europe in the middle ages. There is a whole wikipedia page about that. The misconception that child marriage is Islamic is completely false and I've seen across many forums where intellectual muslims are trying to explain this issue, but you'd often find resentful replies. Maybe it is from the desire to not understand anything about Islam or plain religious hate, I don't know.

See highlighted?. It is what it is, pure and simple. Thanks for replying him. I didnt want to reply him/her without first telling me his/her religion. If it is atheism he/she would be dismissed right away bcus it is none of their business and they will never understand because their brains have been suspended btw heaven and earth. Waste of time dialoguing with them.

cc Kiddler and Empiree

To say that islam has nothing to do with child marriage is a lie. Here is the problem


Some Muslims who follow a conservative interpretation of sharia argue that Islam permits child marriage as the Quran specifies that girls can be married upon reaching maturity, which conservative scholars define as puberty. However, there is debate within Islam about at what age a girl reaches maturity. Many Muslim communities and Islamic scholars agree with the internationally recognized age of maturity, eighteen. Moreover, many Muslims argue against child marriage because Islam mandates that men and women should choose their partners freely, and children are unable to do so.

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/child-marriage#!/child-marriage

Empiree:
Which religion denomination you belong?

I don't have a denomination. Am a Christian

Kiddler:


I don't think anyone needs to show you the history of child marriage around the world that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, especially Europe in the middle ages. There is a whole wikipedia page about that. The misconception that child marriage is Islamic is completely false and I've seen across many forums where intellectual muslims are trying to explain this issue, but you'd often find resentful replies. Maybe it is from the desire to not understand anything about Islam or plain religious hate, I don't know.

The issue of the Prophet's wives is one of great study. Islam didn't invent polygamy, rather it made it more humane by advocating equal treatment across all the wives and the children. In fact a muslim is encouraged to marry one and if he thinks he is able to marry more then he goes ahead. Polygamy is not recommended in Islam, rather it is permitted under certain guidelines.

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three,
or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be
able to deal justly (with them), then only
one." (An-Nisaa’ 3:3)

Before Islam there was no upper limit to the women a man could marry, Islam put the cap at 4.

To the issue of the Prophet's many wives, you need to understand that ancient Arabia was made of groups of warring tribes--there were enemies and allies. Treaties were made almost every month. To cement the relations of the budding nation in a tribal society, it was customary to seal treaties
through marrying into tribes. The Prophet didn't just marry his wives out of lust or carnal reasons, if that was his intention he would have married long before his first marriage at the age of 25. In fact he wasn't at home most of the time as he was busy with his duties as a Prophet and bloodthirsty enemies at his heels. And besides, out of all the Prophet's wives only 4 were binded by a marriage ceremony / contract; which is another term for sexual interaction. It is also important to note that only one of the Prophet's wives (Aisha) was not previously married.

Here's a slight detail for the reasons of the Prophet's various marriages.
-Khadijah(R.A) was his first wife, she was 40 when they married. She bore him all his children except 1.
-Some marriages were to preserve the unity and alliances between certain tribes, like the marriages of Aishah(daughter of AbuBakr), Hafsah(daughter of Umar), Umm Habibah(daughter of Abu Sufyan).
-Juwairiyah, and Safiyah were captures from the war the pagans had waged on the muslims. The Prophet married these two women to show that captures must not be subject to inhumane treatment.
-Some women were subject to neglect and abandonment during those times, similar to the case of Umm Habibah who was a lonely exile and a grieving widow. She couldn't return to her father as he had become a fierce persecutor of muslims. When the Prophet heard of her case from the Christian King Negus, he married her.
-Umm Salamah was a widow who struggled to cater for her children. That time, the
Prophet was approaching the age of sixty. His
marriage to a widow with four children and
acceptance of all related expenses and
responsibilities can be understood only in terms
of his infinite reserves of humanity and
compassion.

The Prophet's marriages fostered relationships throughout Arabia, because the tribes his wives belonged to felt they were welcome to approach him on any issue, thus cementing the reasons for being social and political.

If child marriage is wrong and did not start in islam why did the prophet engage in it? He should know better. Why should it even be an issue of debate if aisha was 9 or 18. It only means he is capable of such that is why its being debated. You say his wives are to cement relationships what of the sex slaves he had and the women used for the ' benefits of the prophet' ? The prophet had several wives concubines and sex slaves its all written in your books

fortran12:

I don't have a denomination. Am a Christian

Ok, good. I was not gonna reply you if you were atheist. But the brother up there already replied your concern. If you are not satisfied with his post let me know to add mine. But before that, be very sure you know what you're asking because you will end up being a pot calling kettle black.

fortran12:

If child marriage is wrong and did not start in islam why did the prophet engage in it? He should know better. Why should it even be an issue of debate if aisha was 9 or 18. It only means he is capable of such that is why its being debated. You say his wives are to cement relationships what of the sex slaves he had and the women used for the ' benefits of the prophet' ? The prophet had several wives concubines and sex slaves its all written in your books

Can you show proof of these 'sex slaves' whether in the Quran or Hadith or some historical documents your Google search may proffer. And what do you mean by 'benefits of the Prophet?' I see that the image of the Prophet you have in your mind is wildly tainted. And I cannot blame you for that, everyone is free to think whatever he or she wants to think. I would only urge you to read about Islam. This is not a silly attempt to convert you; far from it. I only wish you add more knowledge to what you have garnered in your lifetime. No knowledge is inherently evil or bad, not even the recipe for a bomb. Problems only arise in your choice of execution of that knowledge.

The issue of Aisha's age (R.A) is widely debated because the Hadith came much after the Prophet's death. And her age being 9 also contradicts a verse where Allah addressed the wives of the Prophet as 'women'.

whitelotus:
cc Kiddler and Empiree

To say that islam has nothing to do with child marriage is a lie. Here is the problem


Some Muslims who follow a conservative interpretation of sharia argue that Islam permits child marriage as the Quran specifies that girls can be married upon reaching maturity, which conservative scholars define as puberty. However, there is debate within Islam about at what age a girl reaches maturity. Many Muslim communities and Islamic scholars agree with the internationally recognized age of maturity, eighteen. Moreover, many Muslims argue against child marriage because Islam mandates that men and women should choose their partners freely, and children are unable to do so.

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/child-marriage#!/child-marriage

Your point being?

Kiddler:


Your point being?

That underage marriage of girls is backed by islamic scriptures.

Puberty is the defining factor of a girl's sexual maturity in the Quran.

Even many conservative clerics or imams will tell you that a girl is ready for marriage once she hits puberty.

They use 2 pieces of evidence from the scriptures to back this puberty maturity-

1. Surah 65 verse 4 in the Quran

2. The hadith (Sahih Bukhari) that says that Muhammad married Aisha who was 9 years.


It is only modern day muslims who are now disputing the marriage of underage girls- which is good for the girls but is a dishonest attempt to cover up a flaw in islam.

whitelotus:



That underage marriage of girls is backed by islamic scriptures.

Puberty is the defining factor of a girl's sexual maturity in the Quran.

Even many conservative clerics or imams will tell you that a girl is ready for marriage once she hits puberty.

They use 2 pieces of evidence from the scriptures to back this puberty maturity-

1. Surah 65 verse 4 in the Quran

2. The hadith (Sahih Bukhari) that says that Muhammad married Aisha who was 9 years.


It is only modern day muslims who are now disputing the marriage of underage girls- which is good for the girls but is a dishonest attempt to cover up a flaw in islam.

I will discuss on the Surah you've highlighted here. Many critics have twisted and distorted the verse in order to deceive the masses into believing that Quran allows child marriages. Which is as great a lie as saying there is no gravity.

Here is the transliteration for clarity sake:
'Waa lla -ee ya-isna mina almah eed i min nisa -ikum
ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thala thatu ashhurin
waa lla -ee lam yah id na waola tu al-ah ma li
ajaluhunna an yad aAAna h amlahunna waman yattaqi
Alla ha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusra'

Here is the translation by Ahmed Ali(my keyboard does not have the Arabic option. Apologies):
"As for your women who have lost hope of
menstruation, and in case you have a doubt, the
prescribed period (of waiting) for them is three
months, as also for those who have not
menstruated yet. As for those who are pregnant,
their prescribed period is until the delivery of the
child. God will make things easy for him who is
mindful of God."

Firstly, is there explicit command to marry children here?

Secondly, what The Quran is saying here is God has commanded Muslim women to observe a waiting period, which they must observe before they can remarry. This waiting period must
be observed after they are divorced, which is a
(waiting) period of three months.

Thirdly, and this is just a repeat of the first point, nowhere in the passage is there any mention of children. The Arabic word for child/children is 'itfal', hence the reason for the transliteration. Can you find 'itfal' in that passage?

Permit me to talk about the whole point of that verse, which is protecting the chastity and honor of women, something that was as scarce as rain in ancient Arabia. The verse talks about 3 types of females. First is older women who due to some physiological condition have ceased menstrual cycle. Which is called Amenorrhea today in medical terms. The period of waiting was prescribed as 3 months so that the woman may ascertain of there is an unborn child with the man she has terminated her marriage contract with.

The second type of female being discussed here is those who have reached age of maturity, but are still unable to menstruate. Like a girl of 16 who is unable to menstruate, as there are girls who take a lot longer before their first menstruation.

The third type of females The third type of female the verse refers to are those who under Islamic law are said to have matured once she experiences one or more of the following: a monthly period, she has a wet dream and growth of pubic hair. If the female does not exhibit any of these, she is immature and thus cannot enter a marriage contract. Bear in mind, in order for
the marriage to go ahead, permission of the girl has
to be sought, otherwise such marriage is invalid.


I would leave you with the words from a book I read recently:

“It is sometimes reported that Sharia permits child
marriage, or that an Islamic marriage occurs in two
stages. These assertions are not correct. The sharia
sets no minimum age for concluding a contract for
marriage, but such a contract is not a contract in
the Western sense because no consideration is
required (and it typically will not even be written, but
simply presumed from birth). The couple may be
betrothed while the ‘wife’ is still a child, but the man
does not deliver the dowry until the actual wedding
ceremony which customarily can occur only after
the girl's puberty , and the ‘marriage’
cannot be consummated until afterwards.
Thus the Sharia provides true marriage only after the girl's puberty and there no
economic transactions until then.” -Glenn Roberts: Islamic Human Rights and International Law’

Kiddler:


Can you show proof of these 'sex slaves' whether in the Quran or Hadith or some historical documents your Google search may proffer. And what do you mean by 'benefits of the Prophet?' I see that the image of the Prophet you have in your mind is wildly tainted. And I cannot blame you for that, everyone is free to think whatever he or she wants to think. I would only urge you to read about Islam. This is not a silly attempt to convert you; far from it. I only wish you add more knowledge to what you have garnered in your lifetime. No knowledge is inherently evil or bad, not even the recipe for a bomb. Problems only arise in your choice of execution of that knowledge.

The issue of Aisha's age (R.A) is widely debated because the Hadith came much after the Prophet's death. And her age being 9 also contradicts a verse where Allah addressed the wives of the Prophet as 'women'.

When Mohammed and his guys raid other people's lands and take for themselves spoils of war, what do u think they do with the female captives?
|When he raided Khybar, what happened to Safiyya? In your Quran (4:24), (23:1-6; 33:50; 70:22-30), Muslims the right to have sex with their female captives and slave girls, even those who were still married or who were going to be sold or traded.

Here is your Quran 65 vs 4 :

GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. [Quran 65:4-5] As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.

This verse is talking about sex with women who have reached menopause and one who have not reached puberty.

All these are in your books, I did not write them or form them in my head. Its you who needs to study the quran very well.
As for the benefits of the prophet

Quran 33 vs 50

O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Here is the prophet asking for women to give themselves to him despite him having 11 wives and sex slaves.
Ron Jeremy, Lexington Steele even KingTblak HOC has got nothing on the Prophet

fortran12:


When Mohammed and his guys raid other people's lands and take for themselves spoils of war, what do u think they do with the female captives?
|When he raided Khybar, what happened to Safiyya? In your Quran (4:24), (23:1-6; 33:50; 70:22-30), Muslims the right to have sex with their female captives and slave girls, even those who were still married or who were going to be sold or traded.

Here is your Quran 65 vs 4 :

GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. [Quran 65:4-5] As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.

This verse is talking about sex with women who have reached menopause and one who have not reached puberty.

All these are in your books, I did not write them or form them in my head. Its you who needs to study the quran very well.
As for the benefits of the prophet

Quran 33 vs 50

O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Here is the prophet asking for women to give themselves to him despite him having 11 wives and sex slaves.
Ron Jeremy, Lexington Steele even KingTblak HOC has got nothing on the Prophet

I don't know how many times I'm going to explain Surah 65:4, I wonder where you saw 'have sex' in the verse you just copied and pasted. The verse is talking about the waiting period for women who have just divorced. But you've conditioned yourself to believe nothing good is in Islam.

I don't know what you mean by asking about Safiyyah. Well, this is what happened to her:
Safiyyah was the daughter of Huyayy ibn Akhtab, the chief of the Banu Nadir who had all been expelled from Medina in 4AH after plotting to kill the Messenger of Allah by dropping a stone on his head as he sat talking with their leaders. The Prophet then took off his
cloak and placed it over the shoulders of Safiyyah, whose husband had been killed in the battle. It was a gesture of pity, and the Prophet reprimanded Bilal(R.A) who had brought her before the Prophet. Bilal was reprimanded for suffering Safiyyah and bringing her all the way through the casualties of the war. The
Prophet Muhammad invited Safiyyah to
embrace Islam, which she did, and having given her her freedom, he then married her. Safiyyah's clan could trace their progeny from Prophet Harun(A.S),that's biblical Aaron.

Battle of Khaybar took place in the 7th year of Hijrah. The opponents in this battle were the
Jews of Khaybar. This battle came about because the Jews had amassed an army of 10000 and were ready to attack Medina. This battle wasn't a raid as you call it, it was self defence on a large scale. Why the Prophet needed to raid a land is beyond my imagination. But since you seem to know a lot about the Prophet's raids, could you kindly explain them? Raids happened after the Prophet's death, I'm not disputing that. The muslim community was a small one and it was imperative that the landmass be extended because the Persians and the Romans were not going to sit back and watch.


Well, since you insist on not seeing the reality of things, there's nothing more I would add here. Since you insist on cherrypicking verses out of context to suit whatever malicious reasons you may have. This is evidence of the futility of discussing religion online especially with someone whose sole reason isn't clearly to understand, but to resort to insults at the end of the day. In the previous post I made mention of how the Prophet treated captives of war, yet you pretend as if I never posted it. I am fasting and I've got better things to expend my limited energy on. Have a nice day, sir.

Kiddler:


I don't know how many times I'm going to explain Surah 65:4, I wonder where you saw 'have sex' in the verse you just copied and pasted. The verse is talking about the waiting period for women who have just divorced. But you've conditioned yourself to believe nothing good is in Islam.

I don't know what you mean by asking about Safiyyah. Well, this is what happened to her:
Safiyyah was the daughter of Huyayy ibn Akhtab, the chief of the Banu Nadir who had all been expelled from Medina in 4AH after plotting to kill the Messenger of Allah by dropping a stone on his head as he sat talking with their leaders. The Prophet then took off his
cloak and placed it over the shoulders of Safiyyah, whose husband had been killed in the battle. It was a gesture of pity, and the Prophet reprimanded Bilal(R.A) who had brought her before the Prophet. Bilal was reprimanded for suffering Safiyyah and bringing her all the way through the casualties of the war. The
Prophet Muhammad invited Safiyyah to
embrace Islam, which she did, and having given her her freedom, he then married her. Safiyyah's clan could trace their progeny from Prophet Harun(A.S),that's biblical Aaron.

Battle of Khaybar took place in the 7th year of Hijrah. The opponents in this battle were the
Jews of Khaybar. This battle came about because the Jews had amassed an army of 10000 and were ready to attack Medina. This battle wasn't a raid as you call it, it was self defence on a large scale. Why the Prophet needed to raid a land is beyond my imagination. But since you seem to know a lot about the Prophet's raids, could you kindly explain them? Raids happened after the Prophet's death, I'm not disputing that. The muslim community was a small one and it was imperative that the landmass be extended because the Persians and the Romans were not going to sit back and watch.


Well, since you insist on not seeing the reality of things, there's nothing more I would add here. Since you insist on cherrypicking verses out of context to suit whatever malicious reasons you may have. This is evidence of the futility of discussing religion online especially with someone whose sole reason isn't clearly to understand, but to resort to insults at the end of the day. In the previous post I made mention of how the Prophet treated captives of war, yet you pretend as if I never posted it. I am fasting and I've got better things to expend my limited energy on. Have a nice day, sir.

You are just roping yourself into a corner, lol. You talk about Sura 65 vs 4 is about divorce and it mentions about girls who have not reached puberty. It indirectly means islam supports underage marriage. You cannot divorce someone without marrying them first.

About Khybar , i will post a verse about mohammed and his boys raiding in the morning when these people were waking up to farm. It was not a battle it was a raid and he killed Safiyya's family and looted their treasury.



Narrated Anas: The Prophet set out for Khaibar and reached it at night. He used not to attack if he reached the people at night, till the day broke. So, when the day dawned, the Jews came out with their bags and spades. When they saw the Prophet; they said, "Muhammad and his army!" The Prophet said, Allahu--Akbar! (Allah is Greater) and Khaibar is ruined, for whenever we approach a nation (i.e. enemy to fight) then it will be a miserable morning for those who have been warned."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:195

As you can see it was not a battle but a raid, show me sources in your books about the 10000 man army that wanted to attack. Safiyya was a newly wed at 17 and your man killed her family infront of her ,when he heard of her beauty he exchanged slaves just so he can have her, isnt that lust?
Stop defending this man, its clear what he is, he was a violent man.

fortran12:


You are just roping yourself into a corner, lol. You talk about Sura 65 vs 4 is about divorce and it mentions about girls who have not reached puberty. It indirectly means islam supports underage marriage. You cannot divorce someone without marrying them first.

About Khybar , i will post a verse about mohammed and his boys raiding in the morning when these people were waking up to farm. It was not a battle it was a raid and he killed Safiyya's family and looted their treasury.



Narrated Anas: The Prophet set out for Khaibar and reached it at night. He used not to attack if he reached the people at night, till the day broke. So, when the day dawned, the Jews came out with their bags and spades. When they saw the Prophet; they said, "Muhammad and his army!" The Prophet said, Allahu--Akbar! (Allah is Greater) and Khaibar is ruined, for whenever we approach a nation (i.e. enemy to fight) then it will be a miserable morning for those who have been warned."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:195

As you can see it was not a battle but a raid, show me sources in your books about the 10000 man army that wanted to attack. Safiyya was a newly wed at 17 and your man killed her family infront of her ,when he heard of her beauty he exchanged slaves just so he can have her, isnt that lust?
Stop defending this man, its clear what he is, he was a violent man.

Ok, sir.

fortran12:


You are just roping yourself into a corner, lol. You talk about Sura 65 vs 4 is about divorce and it mentions about girls who have not reached puberty. It indirectly means islam supports underage marriage. You cannot divorce someone without marrying them first.

About Khybar , i will post a verse about mohammed and his boys raiding in the morning when these people were waking up to farm. It was not a battle it was a raid and he killed Safiyya's family and looted their treasury.



Narrated Anas: The Prophet set out for Khaibar and reached it at night. He used not to attack if he reached the people at night, till the day broke. So, when the day dawned, the Jews came out with their bags and spades. When they saw the Prophet; they said, "Muhammad and his army!" The Prophet said, Allahu--Akbar! (Allah is Greater) and Khaibar is ruined, for whenever we approach a nation (i.e. enemy to fight) then it will be a miserable morning for those who have been warned."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:195

As you can see it was not a battle but a raid, show me sources in your books about the 10000 man army that wanted to attack. Safiyya was a newly wed at 17 and your man killed her family infront of her ,when he heard of her beauty he exchanged slaves just so he can have her, isnt that lust?
Stop defending this man, its clear what he is, he was a violent man.

'Exchange slaves with who?'

'Waking up to farm?' I suggest you Google the Jews of Khaybar to know who they really were. You should also Google the battle of Khaybr and read what happened. Better still, Google the clime of ancient Arabia and tell me what kind of crops were planted in the desert.

You should also show evidence of the Prophet killing Safiyyah's husband in front of her.



I haven't roped myself into anything, sir. I can't help it if you think that way. The verse was talking about the waiting period(Iddah) for various women. Bare in mind that many of the Arab pagans who converted to Islam brought their customs with them. They were commanded to let go of these bad customs gradually, you can read about how the prohibition of alcohol came to be in Islam, that's an example. So, it is counter-intuitive to then assume that this verse is somehow advocating the marriage of the girl child. In essence, this verse cut across the Muslims of then(who had just recently converted to Islam and had child brides), and Muslims of now who for one reason or the other have mutually divorced from their husbands. I posted a transliteration of the verse, but it seemed you ignored it or you simply glossed over it in your haste to taint Islam. 'Child' in Arabic is 'Itlaf'. You can scour the verse for this word. Tell me if you find it.

And the Hadith you pasted here is another evidence of your refusal to see reason anywhere and you have exaggerated things by plucking one paragraph of Hadith out of a whole collection and then proclaim to understand everything that went on. Here is what led to the battle of Khaybar:

The Jews of Khaybar had heard of the treaty the muslims signed with the Quraish. A treaty that was grossly disadvantageous to the muslims. (You can Google 'The Treaty of Hudaibiyyah'.) The Khaybar Jews banking on this theory of “decline,” they began to instigate the Arab tribes between Khybar and Medina to attack the Muslims. One of these tribes was the Ghatafan, the allies of the Jews of Khaybar.
They began to send their raiding expeditions into the pastures around Medina. One of these pastures belonged to the Prophet himself. On one occasion, the son of Abu Dharr el-Ghiffari was grazing the camels of the Prophet when the Ghatafan struck. They killed him, and captured his mother who was with him, and they drove with them the herd of camels. The Muslims,
however, were able, just in time, to overtake the
marauders and to rescue the wife of Abu Dharr el Ghiffari.

Muhammad decided to put an end to these gratuitous provocation. He thought that it would not be prudent to wait until the Jews and their allies laid another siege to Medina, and that it would be better to forestall them. He, therefore, ordered the Muslims to mobilize, and to march on Khybar. And mind you, the masses of Jews living in Khaybar were the strongest, the richest, and the best equipped for war of all the peoples of Arabia. In fact, after Khaybar was defeated, the Muslims found catapults in their fortresses. You can Google a catapult to see how huge it is. The only persons who used catapults then were the Romans, the Persians and the Mongols.


But by your logic, Muhammad was a bloodthirsty man, so if you were in this situation where your people had begun to be killed one by one, you'd sit back and be smiling at them.

Kiddler:


'Exchange slaves with who?'

'Waking up to farm?' I suggest you Google the Jews of Khaybar to know who they really were. You should also Google the battle of Khaybr and read what happened. Better still, Google the clime of ancient Arabia and tell me what kind of crops were planted in the desert.

You should also show evidence of the Prophet killing Safiyyah's husband in front of her.



I haven't roped myself into anything, sir. I can't help it if you think that way. The verse was talking about the waiting period(Iddah) for various women. Bare in mind that many of the Arab pagans who converted to Islam brought their customs with them. They were commanded to let go of these bad customs gradually, you can read about how the prohibition of alcohol came to be in Islam, that's an example. So, it is counter-intuitive to then assume that this verse is somehow advocating the marriage of the girl child. In essence, this verse cut across the Muslims of then(who had just recently converted to Islam and had child brides), and Muslims of now who for one reason or the other have mutually divorced from their husbands. I posted a transliteration of the verse, but it seemed you ignored it or you simply glossed over it in your haste to taint Islam. 'Child' in Arabic is 'Itlaf'. You can scour the verse for this word. Tell me if you find it.

And the Hadith you pasted here is another evidence of your refusal to see reason anywhere and you have exaggerated things by plucking one paragraph of Hadith out of a whole collection and then proclaim to understand everything that went on. Here is what led to the battle of Khaybar:

The Jews of Khaybar had heard of the treaty the muslims signed with the Quraish. A treaty that was grossly disadvantageous to the muslims. (You can Google 'The Treaty of Hudaibiyyah'.) The Khaybar Jews banking on this theory of “decline,” they began to instigate the Arab tribes between Khybar and Medina to attack the Muslims. One of these tribes was the Ghatafan, the allies of the Jews of Khaybar.
They began to send their raiding expeditions into the pastures around Medina. One of these pastures belonged to the Prophet himself. On one occasion, the son of Abu Dharr el-Ghiffari was grazing the camels of the Prophet when the Ghatafan struck. They killed him, and captured his mother who was with him, and they drove with them the herd of camels. The Muslims,
however, were able, just in time, to overtake the
marauders and to rescue the wife of Abu Dharr el Ghiffari.

Muhammad decided to put an end to these gratuitous provocation. He thought that it would not be prudent to wait until the Jews and their allies laid another siege to Medina, and that it would be better to forestall them. He, therefore, ordered the Muslims to mobilize, and to march on Khybar. And mind you, the masses of Jews living in Khaybar were the strongest, the richest, and the best equipped for war of all the peoples of Arabia. In fact, after Khaybar was defeated, the Muslims found catapults in their fortresses. You can Google a catapult to see how huge it is. The only persons who used catapults then were the Romans, the Persians and the Mongols.


But by your logic, Muhammad was a bloodthirsty man, so if you were in this situation where your people had begun to be killed one by one, you'd sit back and be smiling at them.

Don't give me Google. I took my time to get you the verses from your books. Pls do the same.
Show me proof the part you mentioned ws about new converts. It talks about the waiting period for females who have not yet hit puberty. What about the benefits of the prophet? Why did u ignore that?

The story of khybar Ali asked your prophet why they were raiding then place your man's answer was " so they can acknowledge allah as God and mohmmed as his messenger"
You cnt compare.this man with Jesus in any way. Yet you guys say he is the best of mankind