So how do I convince a person who does not believe that the Bible speaks the Truth?

sonmvayina:


I don't believe the story, I learn the messages in the story.. ALL THE STORIES IN THE BIBLE ARE ALL LIES, the letter killeth.. I learn the messages in them.. The Torah is not a history textbook.. It is a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp..

The only way I know is Only when such a person speaks the Truth that He knows to be the Truth, in His Heart!

Dtruthspeaker:


Sorry friend, with you it is must be a long story. There is no shortcuts, for you have a million issus with the Bible which you have not disclose but this is the issue you want addressed.

Meanwhile the Belief in Christ Jesus is dependent on your Belief that the Bible has told you the Truth and tells you the Truth Always.

But you have already Confessed That You Do Not Believe that The Stories in the Bible are True, how then can I proceed to Almost the End of the Bible, which you do not believe, to convince you of the Truth of it?



No, son, it is not possible. We have answer your disbelief at the beginning of the Bible before we proceed to the end of it.

No child learnt to do Simultaneous Equations before Knowing to Count 1,2,3,...

When did God instruct us to believe in the things you believe about Jesus.. If there is none,why do you want me to waste my time on it... More importantly why are you?..

Dtruthspeaker:
So how do I convince a person who does not believe that the Bible speaks the Truth?



The only way I know is Only when such a person speaks the Truth that He knows to be the Truth, in His Heart!

Show me, I will tell you whether it is sufficient for me or not...

Play your part first..

sonmvayina:


When did God instruct us to believe in the things you believe about Jesus..

There are many many Instructions and information, God our Mighty Creator has issued and passed towards man even before the Christ came.

The question is, are you bound to Obey or Listen to Any Instruction which comes from the Lord or is said to come from the Lord?

Are you bound to Obey them All or Selectively as you please?

For if you do not understand the Instruction of the Lord, how are you going to obey and keep it?

If you do not know the Lord, how are you going to Obey All His Instructions?

Or are you going to select at your will and pleasure which Instructions you are going to keep and which ones you shall dispense with, whether you know the Lord or Not?

Or are you going to altogether, dispense with the obedience to God's Instructions?

These are the Foundations of your knowledge of God which you must resolve, one way or the other depending on whether you love your soul to Acquire Life and Live or whether you do not care getting into Trouble with the Most High!

I already perceive your decision but it is for you to Always make while ye are alive, as Solomon Rghtly said Truly said,

Ecclesiastes 9:4
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

sonmvayina:

If there is none,why do you want me to waste my time on it... More importantly why are you?..

There many Instructions to that effect but as you already know, it is in thy power to Obey or Disobey, to Heed it or Disregard it!

My Knowing and Knowings to heed it does not obligate you to be bound by it, because whether I know or not, you have power to disregard it altogether exactly as when Moses told his brethren that He was Sent by God to them and they did not believe him nor believed God either, until Moses did something remarkable.

The people did not even really believe God and Moses for they, by their own pleasure, power and doing, greatly suffered "Momentary Belief" in God, Severally.

And Neither did God accept their kind of belief! They all died in their offences.

Dtruthspeaker:


There are many many Instructions and information, God our Mighty Creator has issued and passed towards man even before the Christ came.

The question is, are you bound to Obey or Listen to Any Instruction which comes from the Lord or is said to come from the Lord?

Are you bound to Obey them All or Selectively as you please?

For if you do not understand the Instruction of the Lord, how are you going to obey and keep it?

If you do not know the Lord, how are you going to Obey All His Instructions?

Or are you going to select at your will and pleasure which Instructions you are going to keep and which ones you shall dispense with, whether you know the Lord or Not?

Or are you going to altogether, dispense with the obedience to God's Instructions?

These are the Foundations of your knowledge of God which you must resolve, one way or the other depending on whether you love your soul to Acquire Life and Live or whether you do not care getting into Trouble with the Most High!

I already perceive your decision but it is for you to Always make while ye are alive, as Solomon Rghtly said Truly said,

Ecclesiastes 9:4
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."



There many Instructions to that effect but as you already know, it is in thy power to Obey or Disobey, to Heed it or Disregard it!

My Knowing and Knowings to heed it does not obligate you to be bound by it, because whether I know or not, you have power to disregard it altogether exactly as when Moses told his brethren that He was Sent by God to them and they did not believe him nor believed God either, until Moses did something remarkable.

The people did not even really believe God and Moses for they, by their own pleasure, power and doing, greatly suffered "Momentary Belief" in God, Severally.

And Neither did God accept their kind of belief! They all died in their offences.

You are still not understanding my query, when did God ask us to give our life to the Messiah, or believe in the death of the Messiah to be saved?.

The instructions had to be given by an old testament prophet, if none said so.. Why are you blindly following what God never commanded..

How did you rule out Islam.. Muhammed could also Be right.

sonmvayina:


Maybe you don't understand the purpose of this thread yet.. Let me remind you.. I am saying without all conviction that there was never any need for the Jesus story as God has already provided everything in the Tanakh.. They Jesus is a Roman creation..i am not an atheist.

I just obey God's laws as contained in our omenani or Torah.. And leave my life.. Because at the end of the day.. My body will be committed to mother earth and my spirit back to God, because he gave it... I am yet to find how Jesus fits into all these..?

And I am simply asking if reading the entire Bible has been of no benefit to you, while recognising that you have absolutely no understanding of Jesus and none of how reading about him has affected your life, nor most importantly any understanding nor regard for the immense work done by the hands that love you more than any other hands on this earth that placed stories of Jesus in your hands. A smarter person would at least wonder "why, mummy?"

Do you really "obey God's laws as contained in your omenani or Torah"?

Is the following in the Torah?

Honour your father and mother that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God has given thee.

sonmvayina:

You are still not understanding my query, when did God ask us to give our life to the Messiah, or believe in the death of the Messiah to be saved

I understand your query but the reason I am hesitant in supplying the answer is because I am Barred by the fact that it is already your settled belief that the Bible is lying.

And all I am going to say is contained in the Bible which you have already in the truth of your soul, ungroundedly condemned to be a lie (which of course you want it to be even though it is not).

So seeing that you have Falsely and Ungroundedly Condemned the Bible, how then shall I establish the Truth of a fact contained in the Bible, by using the same Bible which you have condemned already to establish it?

It is not possible and it shall amount to a nullity and I hate doing nullities.

It first has to be established and settled with you that the Bible tells No Lies but that it you who Lie in thinking and saying that the Bible lies.

sonmvayina:

The instructions had to be given by an old testament prophet, if none said so.. Why are you blindly following what God never commanded

The Prophecy, not Instruction was delivered by the Prophets, severally and continuously and you have been notified of them here, yet you disregarded them, as is within your power to do.

I have explained to you before why it is wise and proper to follow The Instruction and You Could Not Answer or Rebut. You rather resorted to ridicule and I then laid this Law.

"People resort to ridicule when they can no longer lay a valid point!"

sonmvayina:

How did you rule out Islam.. Muhammed could also Be right.

I discredited Mohammed because I saw that he conducted himself unrighteously and The Good and Holy Lord Can Never Issue Out such unholy, unjust and unrighteous commands Neither shall the Holy God Ever Appoint an Unrighteous Person to be His Prophet.

All the True Prophets of God, Are Righteous People for the Holy, shall Do No Unrighteousness Neither Shall He Accept Any Unrighteous Person Nor Shall He Command that Any Unrighteousness, be done.

For the Kingdom of God Is Established in Righteousness and not in Unrighteousness!

And Mohammed failed in all of these things, which is why I do not and I will never follow or even listen to him!

No Sensible Person Uses a Dirty Cloth in order to
Effectively Clean a Dirty Surface. It is A Clean Wipe, that will Properly Clean a Dirty surface.

Whilst All, not some but all the Admonishings in the Bible and the Prophets Are Indeed Righteous and Good, leaving no wickedness or evil behind.

sonmvayina:


When did God instruct us to believe in the things you believe about Jesus?

God never instructed anyone to believe anything at all, not since Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

sonmvayina:

I don't believe the story, I learn the messages in the story.. All the stories in the Bible are all lies, the letter killeth.. I learn the messages in them.. The Torah is not a history textbook.. It is a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp..

Bravo, except the "lies" bit, which is due to your misunderstanding.

The entire Bible is "a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp". It is not for believing, but for one to help one seek understanding, but your assumption of already knowing it all, which is more than you actually do know, is a barrier to your learning, which makes you a sort those who read the Gospels have read a lot about and would know you are going to Damascus to develop the abilities that will make you understand.

budaatum:

God never instructed anyone to believe anything at all, not since Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.


Bravo, except the "lies" bit, which is due to your misunderstanding.

The entire Bible is "a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp". It is not for believing, but for one to help one seek understanding, but your assumption of already knowing it all, which is more than you actually do know, is a barrier to your learning, which makes you a sort those who read the Gospels have read a lot about and would know you are going to Damascus to develop the abilities that will make you understand.

Hold on to your illusions.. There was never any need for the gospel..

All we need to do is set some laws and adhere to them.. So we can have a good and fruitful human experience.. And prevent chaos..

Every other thing is idolatry..

Dtruthspeaker:


I understand your query but the reason I am hesitant in supplying the answer is because I am Barred by the fact that it is already your settled belief that the Bible is lying.

And all I am going to say is contained in the Bible which you have already in the truth of your soul, ungroundedly condemned to be a lie (which of course you want it to be even though it is not).

So seeing that you have Falsely and Ungroundedly Condemned the Bible, how then shall I establish the Truth of a fact contained in the Bible, by using the same Bible which you have condemned already to establish it?

It is not possible and it shall amount to a nullity and I hate doing nullities.

It first has to be established and settled with you that the Bible tells No Lies but that it you who Lie in thinking and saying that the Bible lies.



The Prophecy, not Instruction was delivered by the Prophets, severally and continuously and you have been notified of them here, yet you disregarded them, as is within your power to do.

I have explained to you before why it is wise and proper to follow The Instruction and You Could Not Answer or Rebut. You rather resorted to ridicule and I then laid this Law.

"People resort to ridicule when they can no longer lay a valid point!"



I discredited Mohammed because I saw that he conducted himself unrighteously and The Good and Holy Lord Can Never Issue Out such unholy, unjust and unrighteous commands Neither shall the Holy God Ever Appoint an Unrighteous Person to be His Prophet.

All the True Prophets of God, Are Righteous People for the Holy, shall Do No Unrighteousness Neither Shall He Accept Any Unrighteous Person Nor Shall He Command that Any Unrighteousness, be done.

For the Kingdom of God Is Established in Righteousness and not in Unrighteousness!

And Mohammed failed in all of these things, which is why I do not and I will never follow or even listen to him!

No Sensible Person Uses a Dirty Cloth in order to
Effectively Clean a Dirty Surface. It is A Clean Wipe, that will Properly Clean a Dirty surface.

Whilst All, not some but all the Admonishings in the Bible and the Prophets Are Indeed Righteous and Good, leaving no wickedness or evil behind.

Let me quote Amos 3:7 for you "7For the Lord God does nothing unless He has revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets.. God will first of all reveal it, before it happens, if he wanted to send his son as sin sacrifice he will tell his prophet.. So it won't be a controversy..

sonmvayina:


Let me quote Amos 3:7 for you "7For the Lord God does nothing unless He has revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets. God will first of all reveal it, before it happens, if he wanted to send his son as sin sacrifice he will tell his prophet.. So it won't be a controversy..

On that note, could you check whether Job 33:24, Psalms 45:7-8 and Daniel 9:24-27 are in your Bible? Let's see what we can make of it as regards the bolded.

Or you believe you can cherrypick your way out of everything?

sonmvayina:


Let me quote Amos 3:7 for you "7For the Lord God does nothing unless He has revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets.. God will first of all reveal it, before it happens, if he wanted to send his son as sin sacrifice he will tell his prophet.. So it won't be a controversy..

Since you say that the Bible is a Lie, you can not use a Lie to Discredit Either the Truth or a Lie!

That is the obstacle between us!

And to think of it, You, who does not Know God nor understand His Ways, is attempting to teach others about the contents of the Bible, Which you say is a lie, does that not already show that you can not found your assertion of knowledge, on the lie, that you have said that it is a lie?

You are not in a position to make your case or speak on these matters having Openly Declared that the Bible lies.

I therefore repeat, that you can not use a lie to either discredit a Truth or a lie.

Neither should you call on me to use what you have already Pre-Judged and without valid representation, a lie, to establish my position.

Same Rule Applies, "It is Not Valid To Use A Lie to Establish the Truth: They Are incompatible and it shall not stand"

DappaD:


On that note, could you check whether Job 33:24, Psalms 45:7-8 and Daniel 9:24-27 are in your Bible? Let's see what we can make of it as regards the bolded.

Or you believe you can cherrypick your way out of everything?

This is a very lengthy topic, especially because those verses in Daniel are so cryptic. However, before summarizing the Jewish interpretation, I’d like to point out a few difficulties with the Christian one. First of all, the term “mashiach”, which literally means “anointed one,” is never used in the Torah in reference to the Messiah as we think of it today. That word appears 39 times in the Torah, and the intention is always for a High Priest, a King, or someone designated by God (“anointed”) for some special mission. See for example Leviticus 4:3, I Samuel 12:3, 24:6, 26:11, Psalms 20:7, Lamentations 4:20, and Isaiah 45:1.

In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer points out that in every other place where the word “mashiach” appears in the Torah, Christian Bibles interpret it accurately as “anointed one” and only the two times that it appears here do they translate it as “the Messiah” – both with the definite article “the” in front of it (which does not appear in the Hebrew), and with the word Messiah capitalized – although Hebrew has no capital letters.

Secondly, Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.

The second anointed one, who did live around the time of Jesus, does not seem to be a very righteous person. Daniel writes that he will be “cut off” (“yikarait”). Karet, which means excision, always has a negative connotation in the Torah. It is most commonly used for the punishment of excision which one incurs for the most serious transgressions.

Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.

Lastly, Christians believe that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the final 7 years (the final “week” of v. 27) and at the end of that week the Temple was destined to be destroyed. But according to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified in the early 30’s C.E. which was well over the half week (24.5 years) before the Temple’s destruction in the year 70. It is also difficult to understand when to begin the count of 490 years according to Christian interpretation. Four hundred and ninety years before Jesus’s death does not seem to correspond to any significant event, making it unclear what starting point Daniel’s vision had in mind.

To begin understanding these verses according to Jewish tradition, as always, it is important to see the verses in context. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Daniel is profoundly worried about the prophecy of Jeremiah. Jeremiah foretold that Jerusalem’s destruction would last 70 years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). He thought the 70 years had come to an end already, and in fact the Babylonian Empire had recently been overtaken by the Persians, yet the return to Jerusalem had not occurred. He feared that they were not worthy of the prophesied redemption and that it was going to be delayed. He began fasting and praying, beseeching God for His forgiveness, until the angel Gabriel came to him and clarified the future events – when the Second Temple would be rebuilt and how long it would stand.

(In truth, the two 70’s of Jeremiah 25 and 29 were separate prophecies. Babylonia would fall 70 years after its ascension (25:12) – and this had occurred the year before the events of Daniel 9, while the return to Zion would not occur until 70 years after Jerusalem’s destruction (29:10), which occurred 18 years after Nebuchadnezzar’s ascension.)

As to the precise interpretation of the verses, there are a number of slightly different approaches among the commentators. In the interests of simplicity, I will follow primarily a single approach below.

The 490 years (70 weeks) refer to the entire time period from the destruction of the First Temple until the Destruction of the Second. Gabriel outlined this entire period to Daniel. Some explain that this was in part a response to Daniel’s anxiousness over the 70 years of Jeremiah. The angel explained that in addition to the literal 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy – the 70 years of punishment Israel would require before the building of the Second Temple, Jeremiah was hinting to a longer 70 – 70 weeks of years – which would be required to fully expiate the sins of the nation during the First Temple. Thus, apart from the 70 years of actual exile, there would be 490 years total in which Israel would suffer other forms of unrest and deprivation, even as the Second Temple stood (Abarbanel, Malbim).

Based on this, verse 24 states that a full 490 years would be required to completely wipe out the sins of the First Temple era. At that point, sin could be removed totally and a period of everlasting righteousness and the fulfillment of prophecy could ensue. I.e., after the full atonement of the 490 years, the Messianic era could have ensued, and the Third Temple could have been built shortly after the Second. (Sadly, though, the Jews sinned further during the Second Temple, pushing off the ultimate redemption even further away.)

Verse 25 speaks of an anointed prince appearing after 7 weeks, after which “a street and moat” will be built, standing for 62 weeks, but in troubled times. The anointed prince was Cyrus (whom God referred to as his mashiach (Isaiah 45:1)) who was to grant the Jews permission to rebuild the Temple. This occurred in the 52nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction – longer than 7 weeks, but the final fraction of a week was not counted.

As that verse continues, afterwards would commence the building of the Second Temple. That period would span in total 62 weeks = 434 years, plus the 4 years remaining from the eighth week begun before Cyrus ascended the throne. (Note that the 7+ weeks together with the 62+ total 70 full weeks.) Thus, this period would last 438 years in total – the 18 years from Cyrus’s command until the Temple was inaugurated, together with the 420 years the Second Temple stood. This, however, would be in troubled times – under the rule of the Persians, then the Greeks, and finally the Romans, with much oppression throughout.

Verse 26 describes what will happen at the time of the Second Temple’s destruction. An “anointed one” will be cut off. This either refers to King Agrippa II, the Hasmonean King at the time of the destruction, the High Priest at that time, or the notion of priesthood in general. The Temple will be utterly destroyed by the Roman legions of Vespasian and Titus (“the people of the prince”). Jerusalem will be utterly “washed away” (“its end shall come in a deluge”). And it will remain so until “the end of war” – the final battles in the time of the Messiah.

Verse 27 adds some interesting details of those final years and beyond. The Romans will make a covenant of peace with the “great ones” of Israel for the final seven years. However, they will not abide by their covenant but for the final half a week before the Temple’s destruction they will abolish the offering of sacrifices. Also, an idolatrous temple with mute abominations would later be built on the high place of the Temple (by Hadrian) – until destruction will be poured out upon all such abominations in the End of Days.

Job 34 is talking about God punishing evil, even if they hide in the dark.. Psalms are not prophecies. They are songs mostly written by David to be sung in the temple..

Dtruthspeaker:


Since you say that the Bible is a Lie, you can not use a Lie to Discredit Either the Truth or a Lie!

That is the obstacle between us!

And to think of it, You, who does not Know God nor understand His Ways, is attempting to teach others about the contents of the Bible, Which you say is a lie, does that not already show that you can not found your assertion of knowledge, on the lie, that you have said that it is a lie?

You are not in a position to make your case or speak on these matters having Openly Declared that the Bible lies.

I therefore repeat, that you can not use a lie to either discredit a Truth or a lie.

Neither should you call on me to use what you have already Pre-Judged and without valid representation, a lie, to establish my position.

Same Rule Applies, "It is Not Valid To Use A Lie to Establish the Truth: They Are incompatible and it shall not stand"

I never said the Bible was a lie.. I said there was no need for the Jesus story..

Prove me wrong..

sonmvayina:


This is a very lengthy topic, especially because those verses in Daniel are so cryptic. However, before summarizing the Jewish interpretation, I’d like to point out a few difficulties with the Christian one. First of all, the term “mashiach”, which literally means “anointed one,” is never used in the Torah in reference to the Messiah as we think of it today. That word appears 39 times in the Torah, and the intention is always for a High Priest, a King, or someone designated by God (“anointed”) for some special mission. See for example Leviticus 4:3, I Samuel 12:3, 24:6, 26:11, Psalms 20:7, Lamentations 4:20, and Isaiah 45:1.

In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer points out that in every other place where the word “mashiach” appears in the Torah, Christian Bibles interpret it accurately as “anointed one” and only the two times that it appears here do they translate it as “the Messiah” – both with the definite article “the” in front of it (which does not appear in the Hebrew), and with the word Messiah capitalized – although Hebrew has no capital letters.

Secondly, Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.

The second anointed one, who did live around the time of Jesus, does not seem to be a very righteous person. Daniel writes that he will be “cut off” (“yikarait”). Karet, which means excision, always has a negative connotation in the Torah. It is most commonly used for the punishment of excision which one incurs for the most serious transgressions.

Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.

Lastly, Christians believe that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the final 7 years (the final “week” of v. 27) and at the end of that week the Temple was destined to be destroyed. But according to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified in the early 30’s C.E. which was well over the half week (24.5 years) before the Temple’s destruction in the year 70. It is also difficult to understand when to begin the count of 490 years according to Christian interpretation. Four hundred and ninety years before Jesus’s death does not seem to correspond to any significant event, making it unclear what starting point Daniel’s vision had in mind.

To begin understanding these verses according to Jewish tradition, as always, it is important to see the verses in context. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Daniel is profoundly worried about the prophecy of Jeremiah. Jeremiah foretold that Jerusalem’s destruction would last 70 years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). He thought the 70 years had come to an end already, and in fact the Babylonian Empire had recently been overtaken by the Persians, yet the return to Jerusalem had not occurred. He feared that they were not worthy of the prophesied redemption and that it was going to be delayed. He began fasting and praying, beseeching God for His forgiveness, until the angel Gabriel came to him and clarified the future events – when the Second Temple would be rebuilt and how long it would stand.

(In truth, the two 70’s of Jeremiah 25 and 29 were separate prophecies. Babylonia would fall 70 years after its ascension (25:12) – and this had occurred the year before the events of Daniel 9, while the return to Zion would not occur until 70 years after Jerusalem’s destruction (29:10), which occurred 18 years after Nebuchadnezzar’s ascension.)

As to the precise interpretation of the verses, there are a number of slightly different approaches among the commentators. In the interests of simplicity, I will follow primarily a single approach below.

The 490 years (70 weeks) refer to the entire time period from the destruction of the First Temple until the Destruction of the Second. Gabriel outlined this entire period to Daniel. Some explain that this was in part a response to Daniel’s anxiousness over the 70 years of Jeremiah. The angel explained that in addition to the literal 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy – the 70 years of punishment Israel would require before the building of the Second Temple, Jeremiah was hinting to a longer 70 – 70 weeks of years – which would be required to fully expiate the sins of the nation during the First Temple. Thus, apart from the 70 years of actual exile, there would be 490 years total in which Israel would suffer other forms of unrest and deprivation, even as the Second Temple stood (Abarbanel, Malbim).

Based on this, verse 24 states that a full 490 years would be required to completely wipe out the sins of the First Temple era. At that point, sin could be removed totally and a period of everlasting righteousness and the fulfillment of prophecy could ensue. I.e., after the full atonement of the 490 years, the Messianic era could have ensued, and the Third Temple could have been built shortly after the Second. (Sadly, though, the Jews sinned further during the Second Temple, pushing off the ultimate redemption even further away.)

Verse 25 speaks of an anointed prince appearing after 7 weeks, after which “a street and moat” will be built, standing for 62 weeks, but in troubled times. The anointed prince was Cyrus (whom God referred to as his mashiach (Isaiah 45:1)) who was to grant the Jews permission to rebuild the Temple. This occurred in the 52nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction – longer than 7 weeks, but the final fraction of a week was not counted.

As that verse continues, afterwards would commence the building of the Second Temple. That period would span in total 62 weeks = 434 years, plus the 4 years remaining from the eighth week begun before Cyrus ascended the throne. (Note that the 7+ weeks together with the 62+ total 70 full weeks.) Thus, this period would last 438 years in total – the 18 years from Cyrus’s command until the Temple was inaugurated, together with the 420 years the Second Temple stood. This, however, would be in troubled times – under the rule of the Persians, then the Greeks, and finally the Romans, with much oppression throughout.

Verse 26 describes what will happen at the time of the Second Temple’s destruction. An “anointed one” will be cut off. This either refers to King Agrippa II, the Hasmonean King at the time of the destruction, the High Priest at that time, or the notion of priesthood in general. The Temple will be utterly destroyed by the Roman legions of Vespasian and Titus (“the people of the prince”). Jerusalem will be utterly “washed away” (“its end shall come in a deluge”). And it will remain so until “the end of war” – the final battles in the time of the Messiah.

Verse 27 adds some interesting details of those final years and beyond. The Romans will make a covenant of peace with the “great ones” of Israel for the final seven years. However, they will not abide by their covenant but for the final half a week before the Temple’s destruction they will abolish the offering of sacrifices. Also, an idolatrous temple with mute abominations would later be built on the high place of the Temple (by Hadrian) – until destruction will be poured out upon all such abominations in the End of Days.

Oga all these your copy and paste is not necessary.
What does Daniel 9:24-27, especially verse 27 say regarding the cessation of guilt offerings and sacrifices?

sonmvayina:


This is a very lengthy topic, especially because those verses in Daniel are so cryptic. However, before summarizing the Jewish interpretation, I’d like to point out a few difficulties with the Christian one. First of all, the term “mashiach”, which literally means “anointed one,” is never used in the Torah in reference to the Messiah as we think of it today. That word appears 39 times in the Torah, and the intention is always for a High Priest, a King, or someone designated by God (“anointed”) for some special mission. See for example Leviticus 4:3, I Samuel 12:3, 24:6, 26:11, Psalms 20:7, Lamentations 4:20, and Isaiah 45:1.

In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer points out that in every other place where the word “mashiach” appears in the Torah, Christian Bibles interpret it accurately as “anointed one” and only the two times that it appears here do they translate it as “the Messiah” – both with the definite article “the” in front of it (which does not appear in the Hebrew), and with the word Messiah capitalized – although Hebrew has no capital letters.

Secondly, Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.

The second anointed one, who did live around the time of Jesus, does not seem to be a very righteous person. Daniel writes that he will be “cut off” (“yikarait”). Karet, which means excision, always has a negative connotation in the Torah. It is most commonly used for the punishment of excision which one incurs for the most serious transgressions.

Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.

Lastly, Christians believe that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the final 7 years (the final “week” of v. 27) and at the end of that week the Temple was destined to be destroyed. But according to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified in the early 30’s C.E. which was well over the half week (24.5 years) before the Temple’s destruction in the year 70. It is also difficult to understand when to begin the count of 490 years according to Christian interpretation. Four hundred and ninety years before Jesus’s death does not seem to correspond to any significant event, making it unclear what starting point Daniel’s vision had in mind.

To begin understanding these verses according to Jewish tradition, as always, it is important to see the verses in context. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Daniel is profoundly worried about the prophecy of Jeremiah. Jeremiah foretold that Jerusalem’s destruction would last 70 years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). He thought the 70 years had come to an end already, and in fact the Babylonian Empire had recently been overtaken by the Persians, yet the return to Jerusalem had not occurred. He feared that they were not worthy of the prophesied redemption and that it was going to be delayed. He began fasting and praying, beseeching God for His forgiveness, until the angel Gabriel came to him and clarified the future events – when the Second Temple would be rebuilt and how long it would stand.

(In truth, the two 70’s of Jeremiah 25 and 29 were separate prophecies. Babylonia would fall 70 years after its ascension (25:12) – and this had occurred the year before the events of Daniel 9, while the return to Zion would not occur until 70 years after Jerusalem’s destruction (29:10), which occurred 18 years after Nebuchadnezzar’s ascension.)

As to the precise interpretation of the verses, there are a number of slightly different approaches among the commentators. In the interests of simplicity, I will follow primarily a single approach below.

The 490 years (70 weeks) refer to the entire time period from the destruction of the First Temple until the Destruction of the Second. Gabriel outlined this entire period to Daniel. Some explain that this was in part a response to Daniel’s anxiousness over the 70 years of Jeremiah. The angel explained that in addition to the literal 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy – the 70 years of punishment Israel would require before the building of the Second Temple, Jeremiah was hinting to a longer 70 – 70 weeks of years – which would be required to fully expiate the sins of the nation during the First Temple. Thus, apart from the 70 years of actual exile, there would be 490 years total in which Israel would suffer other forms of unrest and deprivation, even as the Second Temple stood (Abarbanel, Malbim).

Based on this, verse 24 states that a full 490 years would be required to completely wipe out the sins of the First Temple era. At that point, sin could be removed totally and a period of everlasting righteousness and the fulfillment of prophecy could ensue. I.e., after the full atonement of the 490 years, the Messianic era could have ensued, and the Third Temple could have been built shortly after the Second. (Sadly, though, the Jews sinned further during the Second Temple, pushing off the ultimate redemption even further away.)

Verse 25 speaks of an anointed prince appearing after 7 weeks, after which “a street and moat” will be built, standing for 62 weeks, but in troubled times. The anointed prince was Cyrus (whom God referred to as his mashiach (Isaiah 45:1)) who was to grant the Jews permission to rebuild the Temple. This occurred in the 52nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction – longer than 7 weeks, but the final fraction of a week was not counted.

As that verse continues, afterwards would commence the building of the Second Temple. That period would span in total 62 weeks = 434 years, plus the 4 years remaining from the eighth week begun before Cyrus ascended the throne. (Note that the 7+ weeks together with the 62+ total 70 full weeks.) Thus, this period would last 438 years in total – the 18 years from Cyrus’s command until the Temple was inaugurated, together with the 420 years the Second Temple stood. This, however, would be in troubled times – under the rule of the Persians, then the Greeks, and finally the Romans, with much oppression throughout.

Verse 26 describes what will happen at the time of the Second Temple’s destruction. An “anointed one” will be cut off. This either refers to King Agrippa II, the Hasmonean King at the time of the destruction, the High Priest at that time, or the notion of priesthood in general. The Temple will be utterly destroyed by the Roman legions of Vespasian and Titus (“the people of the prince”). Jerusalem will be utterly “washed away” (“its end shall come in a deluge”). And it will remain so until “the end of war” – the final battles in the time of the Messiah.

Verse 27 adds some interesting details of those final years and beyond. The Romans will make a covenant of peace with the “great ones” of Israel for the final seven years. However, they will not abide by their covenant but for the final half a week before the Temple’s destruction they will abolish the offering of sacrifices. Also, an idolatrous temple with mute abominations would later be built on the high place of the Temple (by Hadrian) – until destruction will be poured out upon all such abominations in the End of Days.

It's not everything you see online you copy and paste!
Imagine saying Daniel 9 is talking about two Messiah's
Are you aware of how dense you sound right now?
Crosscheck what you copy pasted and see if everything makes sense to you.

DappaD:


Oga all these your copy and paste is not necessary.
What does Daniel 9:24-27, especially verse 27 say regarding the cessation of guilt offerings and sacrifices?

What i've noticed in him is the zeal to correct the impression of others around him but he doesn't want any specific standard so instead of asking for who are doing God's will he just want to tell everyone "i'm OK, don't come telling what to do or what not to do"

DappaD:

It's not everything you see online you copy and paste!
Imagine saying Daniel 9 is talking about two Messiah's
Are you aware of how dense you sound right now?
Crosscheck what you copy pasted and see if everything makes sense to you.

Very well, that is the response a rabbi gave me when I also inquired.... Do I have to argue with him...? Chech his response at www.aish.com.

DappaD:


Oga all these your copy and paste is not necessary.
What does Daniel 9:24-27, especially verse 27 say regarding the cessation of guilt offerings and sacrifices?

It is well explained... Read it again..

Maximus69:


What i've noticed in him is the zeal to correct the impression of others around him but he doesn't want any specific standard so instead of asking for who are doing God's will he just want to tell everyone "i'm OK, don't come telling what to do or what not to do"

Everybody has the capability and freedom to make such choices for himself so when time for reckoning comes, the person won't say he was influenced by something else.

sonmvayina:


Very well, that is the response a rabbi gave me when I also inquired.... Do I have to argue with him...? Chech his response at www.aish.com.

Lmao, a rabbi, a Jew who's among those who rejected Jesus Christ/still waiting for a Messiah or? Jews will always be biased with their interpretations.
You should search out for a neutral source, then copy paste again.

sonmvayina:


It is well explained... Read it again..

Since when did any Roman become the Messiah/Anointed One?

Maximus69:


What i've noticed in him is the zeal to correct the impression of others around him but he doesn't want any specific standard so instead of asking for who are doing God's will he just want to tell everyone "i'm OK, don't come telling what to do or what not to do"

You mean I should join you to do what God NEVER COMMANDED.. And incure God's wrath with you?..

God never ask anybody to pray or go through the Messiah to get to him.. And he definitely does not require a human sacrifice hence he warned you. THOU SHALL NOT KILL.

DappaD:



Since when did any Roman become the Messiah/Anointed One?

Since when did Romans carry out sacrifices for God?

sonmvayina:


I never said the Bible was a lie.. I said there was no need for the Jesus story..

Prove me wrong..

Is this not Your Confession?

sonmvayina:

I don't believe the story, I learn the messages in the story.. All the stories in the Bible are all lies, the letter killeth.. I learn the messages in them.. The Torah is not a history textbook.. It is a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp..

Re: Jesus And The New Testament : A Closer Look. by sonmvayina(m): 9:30pm On Aug 13
DappaD:


Oh so you can believe and even quote the words of a man–this emperor Julian who you're not sure existed abi? undecided

OK!

So what made you so sure that the OT isn't full of these “monstrous tales” as well? undecided undecided
If it's part of these “tales”, why believe in them since you also have no solid proof of those events which unfolded in ancient Israel?

I don't believe the story, I learn the messages in the story.. All the stories in the Bible are all lies, the letter killeth.. I learn the messages in them.. The Torah is not a history textbook.. It is a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp..
(Quote) (Report) (Like) (Share)

sonmvayina:


You mean I should join you to do what God NEVER COMMANDED.. And incure God's wrath with you?..

God never ask anybody to pray or go through the Messiah to get to him.. And he definitely does not require a human sacrifice hence he warned you. THOU SHALL NOT KILL.

It's all right, after all you've gotten the peace you want just as i've also gotten the PEACE i want with my brothers like DappaD and over 9,000,000 others globally.
So i think everyone has what he wants!

Dtruthspeaker:


Is this not Your Confession?



Re: Jesus And The New Testament : A Closer Look. by sonmvayina(m): 9:30pm On Aug 13
DappaD:


Oh so you can believe and even quote the words of a man–this emperor Julian who you're not sure existed abi? undecided

OK!

So what made you so sure that the OT isn't full of these “monstrous tales” as well? undecided undecided
If it's part of these “tales”, why believe in them since you also have no solid proof of those events which unfolded in ancient Israel?

I don't believe the story, I learn the messages in the story.. All the stories in the Bible are all lies, the letter killeth.. I learn the messages in them.. The Torah is not a history textbook.. It is a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp..
(Quote) (Report) (Like) (Share)

You dey mind the guy
When he gets cornered he'll pass the entire OT he says he believes in as nonsense.

DappaD:


You dey mind the guy
When he gets cornered he'll pass the entire OT he says he believes in as nonsense.

Yes oh, that's my problem with him. He is been very unstable and I usually wondered why and I pondered what was making him this way.

But thank God, that he has Truly shown himself and that he does not Truly believe in God or Anything the Lord has to say and has said!

This thread is however the best stability i have seen in him where he at least attempted to be stable.

Dtruthspeaker:


Is this not Your Confession?



Re: Jesus And The New Testament : A Closer Look. by sonmvayina(m): 9:30pm On Aug 13
DappaD:


Oh so you can believe and even quote the words of a man–this emperor Julian who you're not sure existed abi? undecided

OK!

So what made you so sure that the OT isn't full of these “monstrous tales” as well? undecided undecided
If it's part of these “tales”, why believe in them since you also have no solid proof of those events which unfolded in ancient Israel?

I don't believe the story, I learn the messages in the story.. All the stories in the Bible are all lies, the letter killeth.. I learn the messages in them.. The Torah is not a history textbook.. It is a manual to guide my step. Like a lamp..
(Quote) (Report) (Like) (Share)

I don't really know how to teach you again.. The stories in the Bible are not based on actual story that is not the intention of the writers, the messages in the story are true...
I concentrate on the messages the writers are passing not dwell on the story because the story is a lie..there was no Adam, Adam simply means man and eve means woman.. Ir is a retelling of an ancient Babylonian tale about how man lost the chance to live indefinitely on earth..

Do you understand now, or do I have to draw you a picture..

sonmvayina:


Hold on to your illusions.. There was never any need for the gospel..

All we need to do is set some laws and adhere to them.. So we can have a good and fruitful human experience.. And prevent chaos..

Every other thing is idolatry..

You must not understand that you are saying there was no need for more book. That all the book that was needed was the Torah, the same Torah that the Israelites use just to learn how to read the millions of other books that they write and read, which is precisely the evil that Christ was written to heal by having fantastic and fabulous stories attached to the Word of God so other Words of God can be placed in your own hands to be read so you learn and your eyes open with understanding of the immenseness of God.

But you, sonmvayina, can not be bothered, because you can not see it benefit others just as you refuse to confront yourself with the answer to the question I asked you.

I wonder why, as you will no doubt.

C.f.: https://www.nairaland.com/5978597/skepticism-vs-zombiesm-which-good/3#92124496

budaatum:

You must not understand that you are saying there was no need for more book. That all the book that was needed was the Torah, the same Torah that the Israelites use just to learn how to read the millions of other books that they write and read, which is precisely the evil that Christ was written to heal by having fantastic and fabulous stories attached to the Word of God so other Words of God can be placed in your own hands to be read so you learn and your eyes open with understanding of the immenseness of God.

But you, sonmvayina, can not be bothered, because you can not see it benefit others just as you refuse to confront yourself with the answer to the question I asked you.

I wonder why, as you will no doubt.

C.f.: https://www.nairaland.com/5978597/skepticism-vs-zombiesm-which-good/3#92124496

The gospel might contain some good advice and story I am not disproving that but why insist it was Gods plan or he is God son or messiah or sin sacrifice.. When none of these was ever prophesied by any prophet..

Why not present it like the vedas or the metu neter.... It will make more sense..