Welcome to nairaland

many people here dont know anything about North Africa. they think the word Africa = Black and people in North Africa are invaders


many people here dont know that North Africans are a majority Berber people who are indigenous Africans like the "black" people of the South

They wrongly assume that North Africans are invaders because of the skin colour which they are not

The word Africa never even referenced "black" people, but originally refered to North Africa

ROSSIKE:

sage said:


You're talking rubbish. The original Berbers were blacks. The ''white look'' came from interbreeding with caucasoid ''visitors''.


Excerpts:


The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions

5th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white, " written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386

10th to 11th century AD Iraqi Physician Ibn Butlan wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ cited in Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.

14th century - Sir John Mandeville had written : Though men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors from the great heat of the sun, written by English Knight, Sir John Mandeville, (died 1372). See chapter 7 of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville (Penguin Classics).


Introduction

All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. T[b]he notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black”[/b] or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”.

Even the Kabyles a notoriously fair-skinned “Berber” people of North Africa are up until the 19th century described as “brown” "apart from a few clans". (See quotes below). The knowledge that Europeans were changing the complexion literally and figuratively of North Africa up until the 19th century has disappeared from modern European histories. Most know about the large part played by sub-saharan black slaves in the making of modern North Africa and Arabia while the white slave trade which was in fact dominant trade in North Africa until the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey) in the 15th century had been largely ignored in historical writings of the 20th. Yet it was only a few centuries ago that Europeans visiting North Africa commenting on the fact that, “on almost every street of the cities of Barbary, Europeans could be seen harnessed to carts like draught horses or selling water from jars loaded on the backs of donkeys”.

1809 Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.

2003 - “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.

The impact of the white slave trade and its contribution to the modern biology and appearance of the modern North African stems from before the Arabian and Muslim waves into Africa. The Roman ruler Claudian spoke concerning Gildo, the “Moorish” ruler of Africa and treatment of Roman women from the Levant by this North African chief and his countrymen:

4th century - Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, published by G.P. Putnam's sons, 1922 p. 113. (Gildo was brother to other Berber chiefs Firmus and Maseczel. Gildo is related to Aguellid or Galdi which remains the modern Tuarek word for chief. Masek, Amazigh ot Imoshagh was the name for the ancient and modern Tuareg clans in general. The Mezikes tribes were called “Ethiopians” in Roman texts of the time. )

1st c. A.D. - “Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan ),who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” , p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi, 1901. The Micatani were also called Ukutameni and Khethim by Josephus. In later writings they are called Ketama Berbers. The name Maketa or Imakitan remains a name for the eastern branches of the Tuareg.

1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages. See Nature Knows No Color Line by J.A. Rogers, 1952. p. 50 The Muslim era didn’t begin until the birth of Muhammed, the Prophet, over four centuries after Martial. By the 7th century the word came to be used for Arabians who in the early era of Islam for the most part also of “black” complexion.

1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which another common term for the blacks in Europe. 6th century Isidore Archbishop of Seville claimed the word Maure meant black according to Brunson and Runoko Rashidi in “The Moors in Antiquity” in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991.

6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus” meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis, I/ 245.

6th A.D. - Procopius in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals were not “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those called the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco.

9th century - According to old Norse Saga Danish (Viking) raiders attacked Spain from Ireland the saga says: “From the latter place they ‘carried off a great host of them as captives to Erin and these are the blue men of Ireland (fir goma of Erin) for Mauri is the same as black man, and Mauritania is the same as blackness…Long indeed were these blue men in Erin.’” Jack D. Forbes, Black Africans and Native Americans (New York : Basil Blackwell, 1988),p. 68. Another transalation says “because the Moors are the same as Negroes; Mauretanis is the same as Negro-land.”

After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers. Most of the Moors in Spain were in fact the people also first known as “the Arabians”.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001694

sage:


What a joke
You are a complete joke dude. stop talking rubbish. What white visitors are you talking about. Stop posting afrocentric rubbish[size=13pt] from Americans who dont know anything about Africa[/size]
What a complete joke

What a joke

You are a complete joke dude. stop talking rubbish. What white visitors are you talking about. Stop posting afrocentric rubbish from Americans who dont know anything about Africa


What a complete joke

Kobojunkie:

That is it  . . . that is exactly is !!! lol

History of north africa



Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.

The Phoenicians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterranean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.

The Carthaginian power had penetrated deep into the Sahara ensuring the quiescence of the nomadic tribes in the region. The Roman Empire was more confined to the coast, yet routinely expropriated Berber land for Roman farmers. They thus faced a constant threat from the south. A network of forts and walls were established on the southern frontier, eventually securing the region well enough for local garrisons to control it without broader Imperial support.

When the Roman Empire began to collapse, North Africa was spared much of the disruption until the Vandal invasion of 429 AD. The Vandals ruled in North Africa until the territories were regained by Justinian of the Eastern Empire in the 6th century. Egypt was never invaded by the Vandals because there was a thousand mile buffer of desert.

wiki

ROSSIKE:

Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.) Greek philosopher, scientist, and tutor to Alexander the Great.
Aristotle is said to have written 150 philosophical treatises.

Here he shows that blacks were the original founders and inhabitants of Egypt.

"Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two."
(Physiognomics, Vol. VI, 812a)

Aristotle makes reference to the hair form of Egyptians and Ethiopians: "Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair."
(Physiognomics, Book XIV, p. 317)

The Arab conquest



The Arab conquest of the Maghrib began in 642 AD when Amr ibn al-As, the governor of Egypt, invaded Cyrenaica, advancing as far as the city of Tripoli by 645 AD. Further expansion into North Africa waited another twenty years, due to the First Islamic civil war. In 670 AD, Uqba ibn Nafi al-Fihiri invaded what is now Tunisia in an attempt to take the region from the Byzantine Empire but was only partially successful. He founded the town of Kairouan but was replaced by Abul-Muhajir Dinar in 674 AD. Abul-Muhajir successfully advanced into what is now eastern Algeria incorporating the Berber confederation ruled by Kusaila into the Islamic sphere of influence.[1]

In 681 AD Uqba was given command of the Arab forces again and advanced westward again in 682 AD, holding Kusaya as a hostage. He advanced as far as the Atlantic Ocean in the west and penetrated the Draa River Valley and the Sus region in what is now Morocco. However, Kusaila escaped during the campaign and attacked Uqba on his return and killed him near Biskra in what is now Algeria. After Uqba’s death, the Arab armies retreated from Kairouan, which Kusaila took as his capital. He ruled there until he was defeated by an Arab army under Zuhair ibn Kays. Zuhair himself was killed in 688 AD while fighting against the Byzantine Empire who had reoccupied Cyrenaica while he was busy in Tunisia.[1]

In 693 AD, Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan sent an army of 40,000 men, commanded by Hasan ibn al-Nu'man, into Cyrenaica and Tripolitania in order to remove the Byzantine threat to the Umayyads in North Africa. They met no resistance until they reached Tunisia where they captured Carthage and defeated the Byzantine Empires and Berbers around Bizerte [1].

Soon afterwards, al-Nu'man’s forces came into conflict with Berbers of the Jrāwa tribe under the leadership of their queen, Al-Kahina. The Berbers defeated al-Nu'man in two engagements, the first on the river Nini and the second near Gabis, upon which al-Nu'man’s forces retreated to Cyrenaica to wait for reinforcements. Reinforcements arrived in 697 AD and al-Nu'man advanced into what is now modern day Tunisia, again meeting Al-Kahina near Gabis. This time he was successful and Al-Kahina retreated to Tubna where her forces were defeated and she was killed.[1].

al-Nu'man next recaptured Carthage from the Byzantine Empire, who had retaken it when he retreated from Tunisia. He founded the city of Tunis nearby and used it as the base for the Ummayad navy in the Mediterranean Sea. The Byzantines were forced to abandon the Maghreb and retreat to their islands of the Mediterranean Sea. However, in 705 AD he was replaced by Musa bin Nusair, a protégé of then governor of Egypt, Abdul-Aziz ibn Marwan. Nusair advanced into what is now Morocco, captured Tangier, and advanced as far as the Sus river and the Tafilalt oasis in a three-year campaign.[1]

Origins

Algerian woman wearing traditional clothesThe inhabitants of the region are predominantly "Arab-Berbers" but this term implies a complete fusion of the two groups which is not the case. Whereas Arabs and Berbers, united through Islam are the main ethnic and cultural elements, it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures. Before the Arab conquest Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, and Byzantines colonized the Maghreb and contributed to the development of its culture. Later, moriscos and muladies, that is, indigenous Spaniards who had earlier converted to the Muslim faith and were fleeing, together with ethnic Arab and Berber Muslims, from the Catholic Reconquista settled to the Maghreb. Among West Asians are Turks who came over with the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. A small Turkish descended population exists, particularly in Tunisia and Algeria. Other European contributions included French, Italians, and others captured by the corsairs and then turned into slaves.[3]

Nowadays, a majority of the current population in the Maghreb consider themselves generally Arab in identity, regardless of mixed ethnic or linguistic heritage. There are significant non-Arab or non-Arab identifying populations in the region and most important of the non-Arab populations found throughout the Maghreb, particularly in Morocco and Algeria, are the Berbers. They represented the majority of the pre-Islamic population. After the arrival of Islamic Arabs, Berbers assimilated in large numbers to Arab or mixed Arab-Berber ethnic identities.

Historically the Maghreb was also home to significant Jewish communities, including the Maghrebim Jews, who predated the 7th century introduction and conversion of the majority of Berbers to Islam. Under the Almohad dynasty rule in the 12th century, the Jews were forced to convert en masse to Islam.[4] Later Spanish Sephardi Jews, fleeing the Spanish Catholic Reconquista, established a presence in North Africa, chiefly in the urban trading centers. They have contributed to the wider population through conversion and assimilation. Many Sephardic Jews emigrated to North America in the early 20th century or to France and Israel later in the 20th century.

On the Saharan southern edge of the Maghreb are large communities of black populations, sometimes called Haratin, who are orally identify themselves as the original inhabitants of southern oasis

sage:

You guys should take time to look into the issue of Berbers

those "white" people are as "African" as you. They have lived in north Africa since the begining of ages and you can research their genetic make up in relation to other Africans and in relation to Europeans. They are "white" skinned but not Europeans


stop making blind arguments

sage:


Arabic is not the mother tounge of Ethnic groups in North Africa like Kabyles, Riffs etc


many people on the African continent dont even know the full history of the continent.

For many centuries, the Berbers inhabited the coast of North Africa from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean. Over time, the coastal regions of North Africa saw a long parade of invaders and colonists including Phoenicians (who founded Carthage), Greeks (mainly in Cyrene, Libya), Romans, Vandals and Alans, Byzantines, Arabs, Ottomans, and the French and Spanish. Most if not all of these invaders have left some imprint upon the modern Berbers, as have slaves from the coasts of Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, England, Ireland, Scotland and as far north as Iceland, particularly during the Barbary Slave Trade (some estimates place the number of European slaves brought to North Africa during the Ottoman period as high as 1.25 million).[10] Interactions with neighboring Sudanic empires, sub-Saharan Africans, and nomads from East Africa also left impressions upon the Berber peoples.

In historical times, the Berbers expanded south into the Sahara (displacing earlier populations such as the Azer and Bafour), and have in turn been mainly culturally assimilated in much of North Africa by Arabs, particularly following the incursion of the Banu Hilal in the 11th century

you and rossike arent necessarily wrong.


the situation doesnt have to be a polar one.


however, denying european input in northern africa is self defeating.

sage:

You guys should take time to look into the issue of Berbers

those "white" people are as "African" as you. They have lived in north Africa since the begining of ages and you can research their genetic make up in relation to other Africans and in relation to Europeans. They are "white" skinned but not Europeans
stop making blind arguments

ROSSIKE:

tpiah said:

Dude please make sense. Who is denying ''European input''? Are descendants of Europeans not there right now? Og course they have ''input''. The question is, who was there in antiquity. The records and ancient sources show QUITE CLEARLY that those regions were majority black areas.

Golden Age of Barbary Slavery

Bombardment of Algiers in 1682, by Abraham Duquesne.

After a revolt in the mid 17th century reduced the ruling Ottoman Pashas to little more than figureheads in the region, the towns of Tripoli, Algiers, Tunis and others became independent in all but name. Without a large central authority and its laws, the pirates themselves started to gain much influence. Pirate raids for the acquisition of slaves occurred in towns and villages on the African Atlantic seaboard, as well as in Europe. Reports of Barbary raids and kidnappings of those in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, England, Ireland, Scotland as far north as Iceland exist from between the 16th to the 19th centuries. It is estimated that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates and sold as slaves during this time period[1]. Famous accounts of Barbary slave raids include a mention in the Diary of Samuel Pepys and a raid on the coastal village of Baltimore, Ireland, during which pirates left with the entire populace of the settlement. Such raids in the Mediterrean were so frequent and devastating that the coastline between Venice to Malaga[2] suffered widespread depopulation, and settlement there was discouraged. In fact, it was said that this was largely because 'there was no one left to capture any longer'[3]. The power and influence of these pirates during this time was such that nations including the United States of America paid tribute in order to stave off their attacks[4].

Decline

In the first years of the 19th century, the United States of America and some European nations fought and won two Barbary Wars against the pirates. After an Anglo-Dutch raid on Algiers in 1816 immobilised most of the Pirate fleet, the Dey of Algiers was forced to agree to terms which included a cessation of the practice of enslaving Christians, although slave trading in non-Europeans could still continue. After losing in this period of formal hostilities with European and American powers, the Barbary States went into decline. However, the Barbary pirates did not cease their operations, and another British raid on Algiers took place in 1824. Finally, in 1830 and 1831, France took control of Algiers and Tunis respectively. Tripoli returned to Ottoman control in 1835, before finally falling into Italian hands in 1911. As such, the slave traders now found that they had to work in accordance with the laws of their governors, and could no longer look to self-regulation. The slave trade finally ceased on the Barbary coast when European governments passed laws granting emancipation to slaves

Algerian:

@ Beaf:
I'm not a big fan of the Algerian President, but I'm quite happy that the protests didn't succeed (and they did so  'cause people didn't want to march with the kind of guys planed them). Long story,
Talkin' about Security Council, a guy from an important NGO claimed in Al Jazeera that there will be a resolution in the next 48h. Wait and see.

@ Rossike:

Sorry mate, I've checked in the mirror : I'm definitely white and my mother hardly talks arabic (not to mention the grand parents)  

@ Kilode :

Personnally, I don't care about the 3rd term issue. I think that a good leader should be able to stay as long as he's the best in the place (which Bouteflika isn't, but well can't blame him for that).
Before Islam and "arabization" (the last being very recent in our national history), I wasn't there   Well, more seriousely, I'd say that Islam brought a wonderful idea : You're what you chooe to be not what you happen to be, so I keep respect for my forefather but I feel closer to my brothers in faith in the first place.

@ Sage:

Cheers, wonderful reply, I've nothing to add  

Has anybody noticed that Algerian= sage Huh

tpiah!:



you and rossike arent necessarily wrong.


the situation doesnt have to be a polar one.


however, denying european input in northern africa is self defeating.

naijaking1:

For somebody who didn't care about skin color, you sound very emotional about these lies you're typing.
Every major history textbook, every Grecco-Roman classic, and even every textbook of medical history supports what ROSSIKE and tpiah have been posting, and I just can't get your point.
Do you even understand history

sage:

There has been "sub-saharan" and european inputs

However, the majority of Berber genetic markers are indiginous to North Africa and is not Europeans at all

By the way, the Barbary slave trade was a very recent event actually

Kilode?!:

I think you and Rossike are saying the same thing if y'all can just calm down and resist the urge to insult.

If a Berber and a white european mate together, won't their offspring have genetic markers from both groups? Just asking for clarification purposes.

How recent is the Barbary slave trade, say compared to transatlantic slave trade?