Kobojunkie:

Are you suggesting that the sites from which many of the counter claims have come from are themselves not majorly BIASED against the west and the sort ROFLMAO!!!

There is fact, there is fiction and also brainwash which one do you see as bias?

@ cap28

Let's not get distracted, but this is simple math - 1.5 million barrels per day for 6m people compared with 2.4 million barrels per day for 120m people.

There is no chance the Libyans won't have a higher standard of living, even much more than they do at the moment.

The Saudis united the disparate tribes of Arabia into a united country - taking over by force and continuing your reign by terror and killing is not my idea of a legitimate government. That they are tolerated by outsiders does not make them legitimate.

cap28:

so what about the fact that the russian satellite systems confirmed that there was  no record of any air activity over libya whatsoever during the period that the alleged attacks by gadaffi were supposed to have taken place?

There is no debate about the airstrikes taking place - even the Libyans did not deny making those very airstrikes. All they have contested are the[i] targets[/i], not the timing. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.

Again, I don't buy a claim by alleged Russian satellite systems when even the Libyans have accepted they have attacked the 'rebels'

Note - the Libyan authorities make no distinction between 'unarmed' and 'armed' rebels as you think - any opposition to Ghaddafi's rule is considered a rebel.[color=Black][/color]

dell_net:

There is fact, there is fiction and also brainwash which one do you see as bias?

yeah, Answer the question . . . .lol

You labelled a site, that clearly tells you it is LIBYA FEBRUARY 17th, an Anti-Ghaddafi site simply cause it is registered by, say, a Libyan living in the UK. I ask you, are the sites from where you get what you consider FACTS in this case and not the same BRAINWASH themselves non-biased??

cap28:

still awaiting your substantiated evidence regarding airstrikes by gadaffi on unarmed protesters.

Uh huh!

Going by the way in which your reality is created, I'm going to attempt to save myself some time. What exactly do you regard as "substantiated evidence"?

http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CD4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fworld%2F2011%2Fmar%2F01%2Flibya-crisis-uk-plan-every-eventuality-cameron&ei=AeV0TciuI46x8QObqvH7DA&usg=AFQjCNGtkfaxNdWBfDsPUQdKZ2oIq3zXLQ

David Cameron has said the UK and its allies must 'look around the corner'. Photograph: Ben Stansall/EPA

David Cameron has stressed that the UK and international allies must plan "for every eventuality" in Libya, though he appeared to play down suggestions that the UK might directly arm opposition forces.

The prime minister said Britain's immediate focus was to exert maximum effort to "isolate and pressurise" Muammar Gaddafi's regime, during a brief press conference held with the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, who is visiting London.

Pressed on the situation in Libya and the plans being put in place to ramp up the pressure on Gaddafi to step down, Cameron said it was the job of leaders and presidents to "look around the corner" and plan for every eventuality.

He vowed that the Libyan people "would not be left to their fate" in the face of some "very immediate dangers" from Gaddafi.

"As I said, we should be planning now to see what we can to do to stop that," said Cameron.

But pressed to give further details of comments made on Monday to the Commons in which he said that the government [b]"should consider" arming the opposition,[/b] the prime minister applied more measured tones. He told journalists the government should be making contact and getting "a greater understanding" of the opposition forces, which have occupied Benghazi and control large parts of the north African country.

[b]"We are trying to step up our contact with them so we can get to know them better, what their intentions are," h[/b]e said. "I don't think we should go beyond that for now, but clearly we hope this will come to an end more quickly."

The international community should be working out what it can do to "step up the pressure and keep that regime as isolated as it can be and hope that will bring it to an end, but be prepared for what might lie ahead", said the prime minister.

This was despite "all sorts of legal and political difficulties", as well as "difficulties of resources".

He said that the immediate priority was both the evacuation of British citizens from Libya, and applying "maximum possible pressure" both internationally and nationally.

The next stage was planning for the potential humanitarian crisis that could unfold unless events came to a quick end, he said.

But Cameron did not rule out the need for military action on the ground, if Gaddafi continued to use violence against his own people.

"It is not acceptable to have a situation where Colonel Gaddafi can be murdering his own people, using aeroplanes and helicopter gunships and the like," he said. "And we have to plan now to make sure that if that happens we can do something to stop it, and that's why I have said it's right for us to plan – look at plans – for a no-fly zone. That's why I've asked the chief of defence staff to do that.

"And yes, we should also be making contact with, getting a greater understanding of, the opposition forces that are now in Benghazi and in control of quite a lot of the country.

"We are trying to step up our contact with them so we can get to know them better – what their intentions are. And I don't think we should go beyond that for now, but clearly we hope this will come to an end more quickly.

"But I think our job is to try and look around the corner and plan for every eventuality, and I note that other allies in Nato and the US are doing exactly the same thing. And that is right."

He added: "What I'm going to be doing today, tomorrow and in the future is making sure that we are doing everything we can to get the international community to think ahead about what might be necessary to try and bring this to an end as quickly as possible."

Cameron, who chaired the national security council this morning, said discussions involved looking at what more could be done with allies to ensure events in north Africa and the Middle East led to a "democratic awakening and not a time of risk and difficulty".

Cameron confirmed on Monday that Britain supported sanctions agreed by the EU, including an arms embargo, an assets freeze and visa ban. The prime minister spoke to the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, later in the day, when the two leaders agreed that French and British experts should work together on "policy options", and that there should be an early European council meeting to discuss further measures to isolate the regime.

European leaders are likely to meet towards the end of next week to discuss how to broaden and strengthen sanctions against the Libyan regime in an attempt to force Gaddafi to step down, according to the prime minister's spokesman.






These people sef? They are so desperate to remove this man. My question is "are people so daft to see what is going on?" This is purely a scramble for libya's oil period. Forget whatever else the west chooses to call it. Now they are thinking of arming the opposition rebels, and why is that if I may ask?
[b]"We are trying to step up our contact with them so we can get to know them better, what their intentions are," h[/b]

I'm sure he meant "to know how much oil we would have access to"

My question is; what have they done concerning Omar Bashir of Sudan that was glaringly killing his own people? Why have they not invaded his country and removed him?
What have they done about the Ivorien crisis, Gbagbo et al.?
What did they do about Rwanda and Burundi?

While we debate over issues like this on NL and go back and forth over what is morally acceptable or not, these people see it strictly as business, no hard feelings. They just fish out the oil laden nations that have minimal ties with them and concentrate on.

Kobojunkie:

yeah, Answer the question . . . .lol

You labelled a site, that clearly tells you it is LIBYA FEBRUARY 17th, an Anti-Ghaddafi site simply cause it is registered by, say, a Libyan living in the UK. I ask you, are the sites from where you get what you consider FACTS in this case and not the same BRAINWASH themselves non-biased??

There is something really suspicions about a site registered a day before the event with the name of the event. Imagine I came to your house and told you your family will revolt against you a day prior then I go about publishing your flaws in your reaction to the revolt. Do you think I am pro or against you?

The fact here is ghaddafi is loved by his people. Don't believe what you see on TV.

mekula:

http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CD4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fworld%2F2011%2Fmar%2F01%2Flibya-crisis-uk-plan-every-eventuality-cameron&ei=AeV0TciuI46x8QObqvH7DA&usg=AFQjCNGtkfaxNdWBfDsPUQdKZ2oIq3zXLQ



David Cameron has stressed that the UK and international allies must plan "for every eventuality" in Libya, though he appeared to play down suggestions that the UK might directly arm opposition forces.

Here comes another Iraq

debosky:

Note - the Libyan authorities make no distinction between '[b]unarmed' and 'armed' rebels [/b]as you think - any opposition to Ghaddafi's rule is considered a rebel.[color=Black][/color]

As do American forces in Afghanistan when they murder tens of innocent citizens during their notoriously numerous airstrikes over so called qaeda strongholds, funny enough no one calls for their heads on a platter.

mekula:

As do American forces in Afghanistan when they murder tens of innocent citizens during their notoriously numerous airstrikes over so called qaeda strongholds, funny enough no one calls for their heads on a platter.

While no excuse, at least they come out and apologise when these heinous events happen.

This is completely different to someone trying to propose that some 'satellites' can distinguish between armed and unarmed 'rebels' from space and that ONLY the armed ones were bombed. I didn't know the Libyans now used precision guided bombs that can identify armed 'rebels' within a crowd with such accuracy.

Remembering that this is the same Libyan Airforce that has tried to bomb a large arms depot and a water tank repeatedly and MISSED.

They can't hit a whole depot but can precision bomb the armed rebels within a crowd of protesters. . . what a joke.

@mekula, if you look at it the US military personnels are loosing morals in these wars. I bet you they would have sent in their troops to libya already. The plan was to invade iraq then n. korea and then iran but they stopped at iraq and afghan what for? drugs (opium) and oil. The ben laden thing is all a hoax they want to tell us after 10yrs they still have not searched every nuke and corner of afghanistan?

debosky:

- any opposition to Ghaddafi's rule is considered a rebel.[color=Black][/color]

Just as any nation that doesnt buy into the western ideology is a terrorist nation. Even when the Palestines willingly and wholeheartedly elected hamas, what did the west have to say about it? Did they not refuse to recognize it as a legitimate govt.? Was it not a democratic process? Govt for the people, by the people? If their candidate had won would they not have recognized it?

dell_net:

@mekula, if you look at it the US military personnels are loosing morals in these wars. I bet you they would have sent in their troops to libya already. The plan was to invade iraq then n. korea and then iran but they stopped at iraq and afghan what for? drugs (opium) and oil. The ben laden thing is all a hoax they want to tell us after 10yrs they still have not searched every nuke and corner of afghanistan?

I stopped believing in that bin laden spoof a long time ago. Have they not "killed or captured" most of his lieutenants whereas he continues to evade capture considering the fact that he's even reported to have renal ailments? ABEGI!

dell_net:

There is something really suspicions about a site registered a day before the event with the name of the event. Imagine I came to your house and told you your family will revolt against you a day prior then I go about publishing your flaws in your reaction to the revolt. Do you think I am pro or against you?

The fact here is ghaddafi is loved by his people. Don't believe what you see on TV.

ROFLMAO!!! I don't even know where to start. So, the site is now biased because, according to you, it publishes information revealing the flaws of the libyan president/regime or is it biased because the site owner registered it a day before the revolts? Which one?

Ghaddafi is loved by his people, yet the thousands that have been fleeing the country into neighbouring countries such as Tunisia, Malta, Egypt are what? Illegal Aliens? . All that fighting recorded in hundreds of videos online (Note: 99.9% of them were generated by ordinary people in the area) were all hollywood spoofs

debosky:

While no excuse, at least they come out and apologise when these heinous events happen.

That is when they are caught, most of the times there's always a media coverup and they are not given the kind of exposure that Ghadaffi's purported bombings are given

debosky:

This is completely different to someone trying to propose that some 'satellites' can distinguish between armed and unarmed 'rebels' from space and that ONLY the armed ones were bombed.

Let's stop being smart by half just to manipulate a debate. The earlier reported bombings were unsubstantiated, not even a single youtube video to back that claim up. The later reported bombings were targeted at rebel bases, military installations that have been taken over by rebels. You stop being a civilian protester the  moment you pick up arms. This is no longer civil unrest, but a civil war and both camps will try to protect thier turf.

Kobojunkie:

ROFLMAO!!! I don't even know where to start. So, the site is now biased because, according to you, it publishes information revealing the flaws of the libyan president/regime or is it biased because the site owner registered it a day before the revolts? Which one?

Ghaddafi is loved by his people, yet the thousands that have been fleeing the country into neighbouring countries such as Tunisia, Malta, Egypt are what? Illegal Aliens? . All that fighting recorded in hundreds of videos online (Note: 99.9% of them were generated by ordinary people in the area) were all hollywood spoofs

Madam junkie, in any situation of civil unrest, it is a natural law of preservation to protect ones life. It is hardwired into us as Humans, therefore people must flee, regardless of emotional affiliations. If one of your friends in your borough goes gaga and starts shooting at people, you would naturally flee rather than trying to talk him down. Please debate more reasonably even though that would be a tall order for you as this concerns your beloved america and its allies.

@kobojunkie I know it will take heaven and earth and also hell to convince you on this matter. To answer your questions is the site biased? yes, both reporting on ghaddafi and registering it a day prior to the event is a big question mark.

Yes those fleeing the country are mostly aliens. Just as I saw on TV now ghanians are stranded in the tunisian border. The media themselves are saying those youtube clips are not confirmed. Your american friends are loosing it and they want to go down with everybody.

Wow the FIGHT for power and control

mekula:

Madam junkie, in any situation of civil unrest, it is a natural law of preservation to protect ones life. It is hardwired into us as Humans, therefore people must flee, regardless of emotional affiliations. If one of your friends in your borough goes gaga and starts shooting at people, you would naturally flee rather than trying to talk him down. Please debate more reasonably even though that would be a tall order for you as this concerns your beloved america and its allies.

LOL. .  . So, You admit there is civil unrest, at least? But your friend there denies it and Ghaddafi himself, and his own son does not agree with this farce that there is nothing happening. So, since you pretend you can argue reasonably I ask, If Ghaddafi himself has ADMITTED that there is definitely trouble in Libya and he has openly blamed confessed that Libyans are involved in creating of the quagmire, what are you on about again? 

P.S Stop trying to make this about some America out there. This is all about people trying to DENY what has been documented simply cause they(who do not live in Libya) have a right to create trash.

dell_net:

@kobojunkie I know it will take heaven and earth and also hell to convince you on this matter. To answer your questions is the site biased? yes, both reporting on ghaddafi and registering it a day prior to the event is a big question mark.

lol . . .  OK . revisit my initial question to you on that.

dell_net:

Yes those fleeing the country are mostly aliens. Just as I saw on TV now ghanians are stranded in the tunisian border. The media themselves are saying those youtube clips are not confirmed. Your american friends are loosing it and they want to go down with everybody.

My American friends? What the heck has america to do with this now. The media is mostly AL-FREAKING- JAZEERA . We don't even have an Aljazeera channel 100% in AMerica still. Since when did you folks decide Aljazeera is american? Also, what has America to do with this now? You folks are here trying to dispute the very words of Ghaddafi himself and now you are pretending America is to blame for you labeling Ghaddafi a liar?

It just shows here what confused state some of us are in. The Russians (Of all People) said there was no airstrikes and you believed them!!!.
Talking about the bombings , who remembers the 2 Libyan Jet fighters that flew to Malta, What was it they where doing in Malta as opposed to being in Libya where Ghadaffi needs them??

@kobojunkie you seem to be a brainwashed candy. You are still stuck to fox28, UPN and the like. I think you need to expand your mind and read things like conspiracy theory, art of war etc to know the extent humans would go to achieve their aim. And what has america got to do with this? they're the ones spreading all these war and civil unrest disease, unfortunately every wise man's eyes are open now and they are loosing at it. Get off that crack kobojunkie and focus.

@shotster50 If you are confused then search for the facts it will not take much to analyze and know the truth. The truth is indestructible.

dell_net:

@kobojunkie you seem to be a brainwashed candy. You are still stuck to fox28, UPN and the like. I think you need to expand your mind and read things like conspiracy theory, art of war etc to know the extent humans would go to achieve their aim. And what has america got to do with this? they're the ones spreading all these war and civil unrest disease, unfortunately every wise man's eyes are open now and they are loosing at it. Get off that crack kobojunkie and focus.

@shotster50 If you are confused then search for the facts it will not take much to analyze and know the truth. The truth is indestructible.

Your truth or the truth?

dell_net:

@kobojunkie you seem to be a brainwashed candy. You are still stuck to fox28, UPN and the like. I think you need to expand your mind and read things like conspiracy theory, art of war etc to know the extent humans would go to achieve their aim. And what has america got to do with this? they're the ones spreading all these war and civil unrest disease, unfortunately every wise man's eyes are open now and they are loosing at it. Get off that crack kobojunkie and focus.

@shotster50 If you are confused then search for the facts it will not take much to analyze and know the truth. The truth is indestructible.

I hate to say it but you come off as one who is dumb as a doornob. my last post was filled with questions for you to answer . . . I even hinted to Aljazeera, positing that all you have said, and continue to say, goes against what Ghaddaffi, Aljazeera, and Libyans interviewed, continue to state of the situation in Libya. Yet you feel starting off now by throwing America into the mix will somehow make your ignorance laden claims go away somehow??

I suggest you take your own advice there. Get off the crack and learn to focus . . . jumping back and forth does not help you at all as you have yet to make one sensible post for your side of this. FOCUS . . . you were trying to claim that Ghaddaffi has been lying all month(february and march). Even recent interview with, I believe some lady from one of tthe major networks has Ghaddafi confirming that there is currently chaos in Libya and you hemp monkies are here telling us we are daft for not believing the lies to continue to trade? You need to dry reduce the dose of whatever drug you are on there.

@shotster50 The truth, the facts of things not my truth or my statements.

@kobojunkie if you don't have aljazeera in your house you can watch it on http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish. To revert back to the example I gave you and your questions and also the definition of biased. Russia said those airstrikes in that the media were reporting did not actually happen. In the video from libyafeb17.com or whatever, Saif said the strikes where at the oil harbor not cities as was reported earlier by the media. Does this sound like bias to you? I am not jumping back and forth as I have had previous arguments with you on politics, I know it takes a lot to convince you but eventually once you see the facts you get to understand. So watch the reporting and the silly analysis/commentary from aljazeera. Have you seen the earlier reports when the revolution started?

mekula and dell net it is very difficult to have a meaningful discussion about anything with a person who has been completely brainwashed by the propaganda of the western media, to some extent i think it is even futile because that person is now so far gone that there is nothing you can say that will enable them to be able to apply critical thinking to any scenario, watch this and see how a former KGB agent describes how the american media copied the former soviet union's practice of brainwashing in order to keep the russian people docile and ignorant:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeMZGGQ0ERk

he describes brainwashing as psychological warfare and defines it as follow:

"the ability to change the perception of reality to such an extent that despite the abundance of information no-one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their famililes, their communities and their country".

He goes on to say that it is a great brainwasing process which occurs over a minimum of 15 to 30 years (a generation), he says its divided into four basic stages: demoralisation, destabilisation, crisis and finally normalisation.

thanks cap28 the clip is educative. I just realized somethings in comparison to Nigeria.

dell_net:

thanks cap28 the clip is educative. I just realized somethings in comparison to Nigeria.

you're welcome, what did you realise about nigeria?

reverse propaganda by anti-american crackpots who get so riled up in hate that they ignore the local issues at stake and perpetually chase the bogeyman like adults stuck at pre-puberty. what do you expect?

@cap28. the fact that there are some age group that have the same ideology from influence of TV.

@kodewrita who is the bogeyman?

debosky:

@ cap28

Let's not get distracted, but this is simple math - 1.5 million barrels per day for 6m people compared with 2.4 million barrels per day for 120m people.

There is no chance the Libyans won't have a higher standard of living, even much more than they do at the moment.

this well worn argument is one used continuously by nigerian politicians to try and justify why the nigerian govt has failed to provide decent housing, social services, constant electricity, health care facilities and other basic amenities to its citizens despite being the world's eighth largest oil exporter.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html

Are you aware that in 2008 nigeria recorded a surplus of $30 billion in its excess crude account?

what did it do with all this money?

perhaps this story might throw some light on this issue:

Toward the end of 2008, about $30 billion sat in Nigeria’s Excess Crude Account, a government fund of extra revenue that exceeds what the government has budgeted from the projected price of oil.

When oil prices are high, money flows into the account, and it becomes an irresistible, unaccounted — for jackpot, especially for the largely autonomous governors of Nigeria’s 36 states, according to financial analysts and good-government groups.

[b]From $30 billion, the fund had trickled down to about $450 million by mid-2010, according to Veronica Kalema of Fitch Ratings, which late last year downgraded Nigeria’s outlook from “stable” to “negative” partly because of the vast and largely unaccounted outflow from the Excess Crude Account.

By the beginning of this year, the fund had trickled down to about $300 million, according to reports in the Nigerian media. Officials with the Finance Ministry did not respond to calls for comment this month, but about $15 billion was spent in 2010 alone, Ms. Kalema said.

Some of the vast pile of cash, perhaps $5 billion to $8 billion, has been spent on so-far unfruitful efforts to upgrade Nigeria’s feeble power output, which remains no better than that of a mid-size American city for a nation of over 150 million people, Africa’s most populous.

But the rest, some $22 billion or more, remains largely unaccounted for.

“Where the hell did the remaining $22 billion-plus go?” asked a foreign-based adviser to the Nigerian government who asked to remain anonymous because of his continuing relationship with it. “Most of the remaining $22 billion was drawn down by the state governments without any particular projects to spend it on, just on the basis of, there’s money sitting in the accounts, let’s draw it down.”

It is entirely possible that nobody has a clear picture of what has become of this vast sum after it was parceled out at meetings of the state governors.

“It’s basically free money,” said another financial consultant who has advised the Nigerian government. “Once you get it, there are no checks and balances on what happens to it.” The results, or lack of them, are visible in places like this steamy state capital at Nigeria’s southern edge. Empty grandiose shells — the unfinished hotel looks like a giant waffle cone -tower over swamps, near brand-new poured-concrete government buildings alongside ramshackle corrugated-metal-roofed shacks.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/02/of-nigeria%E2%80%99s-oil-money-and-misapplication/#

so the various nigerian state govts have been unable to account for a whopping $22 billion dollars - are you still going to insist that nigeria's lack of development is due to its "huge" population?

At least Gadaffi actually used his oil revenues to provide housing, decent healthcare and various other social services.  Is it any wonder that you have nigerians escaping nigeria to go and live in Libya.

The Saudis united the disparate tribes of Arabia into a united country - taking over by force and continuing your reign by terror and killing is not my idea of a legitimate government. That they are tolerated by outsiders does not make them legitimate.

Really, how do you think the military juntas that misruled nigeria for over 27 years came to power?

Didnt OBJ, IBB and abacha operate a reign of terror? didnt they kill anyone who opposed them? 
Do you have any evidence of Gadaffi subjecting his people to a "reign of terror"?  If he were such a tyrant why did he provide funding to the ANC, the black panthers and other anti imperialist  groups?
Unlike the failed nigerian leadership he modernised Libya and improved the standard of living of his people, what did the nigerian leadership do for their people?

There is no debate about the airstrikes taking place - even the Libyans did not deny making those very airstrikes. All they have contested are the[i] targets[/i], not the timing. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.

Again, I don't buy a claim by alleged Russian satellite systems when even the Libyans have accepted they have attacked the 'rebels'

Note - the Libyan authorities make no distinction between 'unarmed' and 'armed' rebels as you think - any opposition to Ghaddafi's rule is considered a rebel.[color=Black][/color]

there are two issues here:

did Gadaffi launch airstrikes against UNARMED PROTESTERS? the answer is no, this has since been corroborated by the Russian military who were monitoring all air activity over libya on the day that these alleged attacks were supposed to have taken place.
In addition even the US Department of Defense was forced to concede that such attacks could not be confirmed.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates was asked recently "Do you see any evidence that he [Qaddafi] actually has fired on his own people from the air?" to which he responded by saying, "We’ve seen the press reports, but we have no confirmation of that." Admiral Mullen added, "That’s correct. We’ve seen no confirmation whatsoever."

http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4777

second issue:

did gadaffi SUBSEQUENTLY launch attacks on ARMED REBELS: yes, why?  because at this point the libyan govt were no longer dealign with unarmed protesters but an armed insurrection which is classified as treason.  I asked you previoulsly what would happen if armed rebels tried to overthrow the govt of the US or UK and you have not yet given me an answer.

kodewrita:

reverse propaganda by anti-american crackpots who get so riled up in hate that they ignore the local issues at stake and perpetually chase the bogeyman like adults stuck at pre-puberty. what do you expect?

instead of reverting to abuse why not come up with a coherent argument as to why you beleive this is "reverse propaganda by anti-american crackpots"?

don't keep me waiting as im dying to hear your rebuttal.