TAO11:
Written evidence?? = “King” (Final answer!). Lol! /s

——————
On Screenshots: The 1st = quotation from the 1400s. The 2nd = quotation from the 2000s. The 3rd = quotation from the 1800s.

the only answer documented 400 years history can provide

macof:

subjugation in your mind you mean

I don't see you provide documentation of this. Provide the 400 year old document that says Bini subjugated yorubas

Despite all the pleadings from your aunty madam copy and paste lecturer not to take this bait, you seems to be calling for it. Don't you see how she has cleverly avoided this part of the thread because she knows what will follow. Maybe you want us to start reeling out Yoruba historical accounts by Yoruba historians on how the Yoruba were subjugated by the Benin. All you need to do is simply ask and they will be provided.

If you ask for it, be ready to take it like a man when it starts coming out.

So your Oro Oba Ado burial site of Oba of Benin the Yoruba claims to be in Ife since the 1100s is a lie and fake.

See the link below for Yoruba previous claims that Benin have been burying their Obas in Ife since 1100s till 1800s.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba#24390068

gregyboy:



1. It is not available , the oba refers to as king in European text but the 2. word obaseki which the European wrote as abbasski, shows that indeed words like oba was present in benin




And if he can't present it what change,


3. Does it give yoruba the upper hand for the ownership of oba....


Because we know after 1930 yorubas kings began using oba with their titles to address themselves to uplift their dead history


Same way samuel johnson to sell is dead oyo centric books

1. After 4 days

You and Samuk are going through all the stages of grief
From denial to anger (even wishing me dead) now wallowing around bargaining to acceptance..

2. Which Europeans wrote at the trial of King Ovonramwen 1897 not as early as the Yoruba instances brought up on this thread.
And calling personal names doesn't mean anything.. That is not in reference to the king of benin

3. Going by your usual logic that all things must be documented yes.
Going by the logic of your king that Oranmiyan was the first person known as Oba in Benin, also yes
Going by the logic of historians and scholars that the word "Ọba" goes back to the 13 Ife nobles who ruled Ife together before Oduduwa, also yes

macof:


1. After 4 days

You and Samuk are going through all the stages of grief
From denial to anger (even wishing me dead) now wallowing around bargaining to acceptance..

2. Which Europeans wrote at the trial of King Ovonramwen 1897 not as early as the Yoruba instances brought up on this thread.
And calling personal names doesn't mean anything.. That is not in reference to the king of benin

3. Going by your usual logic that all things must be documented yes.
Going by the logic of your king that Oranmiyan was the first person known as Oba in Benin, also yes
Going by the logic of historians and scholars that the word "Ọba" goes back to the 13 Ife nobles who ruled Ife together before Oduduwa, also yes

So you are now confirming to the world what we have always said that Yoruba earlier claim below that Benin have been burying their oba in Ife since 1100s is a lie and fake. It's very refreshing how this debate is proving previous Yoruba claims as lies and fabrications.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba#24390068

I can see someone peeing on themselves after seeing the above link.

Lesson: the internet doesn't forget non forgive, so be careful about your claims and insinuations.

We were supposed to keep the political arrangement between Benin and Yoruba that was created in 1930s secret, but you guys couldn't keep your own side of the bargain. Now we are unveiling everything for the enjoyments of our Igbo readers.

Some of these Igbo guys know you guys are lying but rather stay on the sidelines to be entertained. There is no serious Igbo person that will argue that their most senior Igbo traditional ruler in the south east, the Obi of Onitsha didn't copied it's monarchy system from Benin more than 300 years ago or that Benin already annexed Lagos in the 1500s with proven historical records dating back to 1602. So Benin kings were simply known by the English word kings during these period. Nonsense.

macof:


1. After 4 days

You and Samuk are going through all the stages of grief
From denial to anger (even wishing me dead) now wallowing around bargaining to acceptance..

2. Which Europeans wrote at the trial of King Ovonramwen 1897 not as early as the Yoruba instances brought up on this thread.
And calling personal names doesn't mean anything.. That is not in reference to the king of benin

3. Going by your usual logic that all things must be documented yes.
Going by the logic of your king that Oranmiyan was the first person known as Oba in Benin, also yes
Going by the logic of historians and scholars that the word "Ọba" goes back to the 13 Ife nobles who ruled Ife together before Oduduwa, also yes

Lol, funny can i see a document were a Yoruba king was referred to obs by his name pre 1900



Oronmiyan in benin are you high.......

Going by the logic since the king of benin wasnt referred to as oba by the European then the benins must have borrowed it after 1900


That means there was no second dynasty since the king of benin would ogie of benun edo


Macof you need to cool you're hallucinating



The transgendered tao11 is yet to prove ife-benin connections



If youre going to bring samuel johson reports of calling yoruba kings oba thrn you must be joking


Someone who said the oba of benin was the second to last born to oromiyan


That same idiot use the same tittle that he knew belongs to the oba of benin and decuded to use it as a generic term for yoruba kings dont you find it fishy


You becoming to desperate desperation brings insanity dint go that route with already mad TAO11

Juliusmalema:



How did Bini share border with Ethiopia?..Lol

How did Azikiwe arrive at reverse history even the kings know nothing about?

There is nothing Bini could do even if british didn't come?

Bini was heavily under yoruba rule even as far as Itshekiri

All are Yoruboid groups..That's the history we know.

Nna biko hurry back to tell us that you wrote your bolded above out of anger and perhaps the frustrations of learning the true history of pre colonial Igbo land from Etinosa1234. Please don't tell me that RedboneSmith is also part of your we

I wouldn't want to believe you have been learning your history from Tao11 of nairaland. I am now beginning to understand how TAO11 has been getting away with her misinformation.

Below is the history of Lagos which is now the most important Yoruba city as far back as 1603, more than 400 years ago. Enjoy the reading. The reference is there for your verification.

The relevant passage in Andreas Ulsheimer's account (from 1603) is the following:

"Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago [Lagos], which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns." - Andreas Ulsheimer's voyage of 1603-4, translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1669 (1983), pp. 40-41

The "forty miles" would be either German miles or perhaps Dutch miles (Ulsheimer was a German, but he was working for the Dutch), not English miles.

At that time, the king of Benin, presumably one of the "warrior-kings" of Benin tradition - most likely either Orhogbua or Ehengbuda - was campaigning directly in the Lagos area (something which Egharevba, who had no idea about Ulsheimer's account, also claimed independently on the basis of tradition in his works on Benin history centuries later) and the "king's house" in "Lago" that Ulsheimer refers to is a reference to his residence there while on campaign. Ulsheimer gives a very brief description of the Benin palace, in Benin City, separately from this, in another part of his account (given on p. 37 of the book by Adam Jones cited above), and so the "king's house" that he mentions in that passage is not a reference to the royal palace, but to a certain royal building in "Lago".

TAO11:
Let’s welcome on board the illiterate-in-chief 1 of Benin kingdom — the AreaDullard himself.

Perhaps, you will be the messiah whom your fellow clowns need to meet the inane standard they have (unknowingly) set for themselves — which I am simply holding them to.

Now with regards to the bolded above, I do not (for the umpteenth time) have even an atom-weight burden of proof to present any such early writing.

It’s high time you all mustered the courage to pick up a book and read up on what ’burden of proof’ is. You all’s celebration of illiteracy is appalling!

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit — that is: the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim.

In other words, at no point did I ever claim to have any pre-1900 written evidence of some alternative word which was allegedly used in the pre-1900s to describe a Benin monarch. I never made any such claim.

In sum: If it is not claimed, it is not an obligation to be fulfilled.

Instead, it is the Benin clown-in-cheifs who made the delusional chesty claim of a “600 years” old [or even a 19th century] writing which allegedly identifies a Benin monarch as “Oba”.

Given that a claim was made in this case, it then necessarily follows — from a logical standpoint — that a burden of proof is to be borne.

But unfortunately, we are yet to see any such evidence come to life from our Benin clowns. What a shame!?

Having said that, I for a fact have gone beyond the call of duty (having no burden of written evidence) to have substantiated some very specific position which I didn’t even (originally) claim. Lol! Isn’t that amazing?

I have submitted multiple, independent, pre-1900 written evidence which in some cases names (and in other cases simply describes) a particular Yoruba monarch as “Oba”.

You all should wake up and smell the coffee. Provide the evidence for your claim that the there exists some “600 years” old [or even 19th century] writings which identifies a Benin monarch as “Oba”.

None has been provided so far. Help each other if you must.

Peace!

cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith, @scholes0

Oh no. Why do I have to laugh each time I logged in to read your posts?

Please if you are coming with the Benin/Ife relationship nonsense, make sure you come with scholarly evidence that is older than the 1800s.

TAO11:


Now with regards to the bolded above, I do not (for the umpteenth time) have even an atom-weight burden of proof to present any such early writing.

In other words, at no point did I ever claim to have any pre-1900 written evidence of some alternative word which was allegedly used in the pre-1900s to describe a Benin monarch. I never made any such claim.

In sum: If it is not claimed, it is not an obligation to be fulfilled.

Peace!

cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith, @scholes0

Good to know that you have finally wash your hands off the Benin/Ife relationship because you can't prove it.

Hope your students are taking notes of all these your disclaimers.

.

samuk:
.

Haha!

(1) So, no Bini is able to substantiate their delusional claim that YoRuBa bOrRoWeD “oBa” FrOm uS aFtEr 1 9 3 8.

This is a huge disgrace of astronomical magnitude on all Bini liars.

(2) So, no Bini is able to substantiate their delusional claim that some 6 0 0 yEaRs oLd wRiTiNg uses the word “oba” for a Benin monarch.

This is a colossal embarrassment to all Bini clowns and illiterates.

cc: macof, RedboneSmith, gomojam, scholes0



————————
PS on your latest derailing attempts:

(1) The Ife-Benin Connection has been incontrovertibly established even on this thread with the archaeological evidence of a Benin king’s ‘bronze’ plaque recovered from Ife and dating to circa 1600 —— as well as with early terra-cotta pieces of Benin-styled Ife heads among other archaeological evidence.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12720564_968d156e812f4e799b25e125b9235aee_jpeg_jpeg4bbdd0b8ce2845e94136c58ec5a96193
Reference: S.P. Blier, “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba”, 2015, p.191.

See also: F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture”, 1967, p.187.

See also: F. Willett, “Art of Ife,” Tribal Arts, Vol. 3, No. 36 (2004), pp.100–107.

The damage has already been done beyond what any ludicrous-cum-comedic beer parlor sorrowful rant can salvage.

Nairalanders now know better, and that’s what is important! Wake up and smell the coffee!

(2) Regarding the Benin-Lagos Connection, please ensure to open up a thread on that and tag us all along.

That will be more honorable for you than attempting to manipulate @Juliusmalema, while also trying to derail and shy away from your primary obligation here. Please take note of this tactic, @Afam4eva.

If you’re bold enough to proceed, then I will join you there and drag you again like Tiger Gen, just like I did your brother @Prolog when he once tried this Lagos twist with me.
.
.
.
Just to offer @Juliusmalema some background context regarding the clarification-worthy portions of the ‘Lago’ statements posted above by our Benin clown-in-chief:

“Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago, which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. •••”

~ Andreas Ulsheimer's Voyage of 1603-4, Translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1669 (1983), p.40.

Yes, this report mentions here that a town [which Ulsheimer called ”Lago”) is located on one of the islands of Lagos, and is occupied only by Binis.

The same report shows, however, elsewhere that the Lagos of the time was home to many different people of diverse backgrounds.

In other words, the Lagos of the time was NOT merely that ONE fenced-settlement wherein ONLY Binis lived. Lol. NO.

The settlement which Ulsheimer speaks of here (i.e. Lago) is only one of the settlements on that island (he called it a “frontier town” — i.e. it is located on/near the border of at least two towns on that island.

Having clarified that, the Lagos of the time (as it is also seen more clearly in other parts of the same report) was larger and was more diverse than that one fenced-settlement of the Binis which stood (among other peoples’ settlement) on that islands.

In fact, early Portuguese sources and other early Dutch notes make it plain that Lagos is known locally by its natives as Awani land, Ahoni land, or Ahouy land, among several other renditions of the indigenous peoples’ name, viz. Awori.

These early notes thus correspond to the indigenous account of Lagos people which states in unequivocal terms that the autochthonous people of Lagos are the Aworis.

In the light of the foregoing exposition, one may then further seek to know how the Binis first came to settle-in into Lagos, and hence into that island, and hence into their designated settlement which Ulsheimer called Lago.

Did they access Lagos and settle-in by means of a peaceful negotiation with the natives? Or did they gain access to settle-in into Lagos by means of the use of force or warfare?

Ulsheimer’s note is completely silent on how the Binis originally came to settle-in into Lagos.

His descriptions indicate clearly that he met the Binis in Lagos as one of the different peoples who had already been there apparently for some relatively long period of time.

The most relevant information on this from his note on is that the Binis’ designated fenced-settlement (which he calls “Lago” town — not to be confused with the larger island on which it stands, nor with the adjacent islands, and the mainland) belongs exclusively to them and thus to their King.

No further details comes from his notes as to how this settlement of theirs was originally acquired in the past.

Did the natives designate the area to the Binis after some peaceful permission to land was asked from the natives? Or did the Binis gain access to settle-in into Lagos by means of the use of force or warfare?

No answer was particularly given in Ulsheimer’s notes which happens to be the earliest primary source on the subject.

The answers to this question are to be found in latter- publications — first in the year 1878, then 1914, then 1929, and then finally 1953.

The first three publications (one of which was by a Colonial officer, Sir Alan Burns — the 1929 publication) all agree in clear terms that the Binis settled-in into Lagos peacefully (like the other factions) after their requested permission to land was granted by the natives.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12768161_03c5f455ca6c4a4983a0bf2594607f69_jpeg_jpegcd0c447085360c921debd85d0f8869cd

However, the publication of 1953 came from the Binis — from the first indigenous and most successful of all Bini writers, viz. Chief Egharevba.

Writing about this subject decades later, Chief Jacob U. Egharevba claimed, contrary to the foregoing original indigenous accounts of Lagos, that the Binis gained access to settle-in into Lagos by taking it over by the use of force.

At this point, it thus becomes plain which of these two versions presents history unconditionally, and which version was actually put forward as a reaction to the account of the indigenous people which had already been collected, published and frozen into writing by the British authorities decades earlier.

TAO11:
Haha!

So, no Bini is able to substantiate their delusional claim that YoRuBa bOrRoWeD oBa FrOm uS aFtEr 1 9 3 8. This is a huge disgrace of astronomical magnitude on all Bini liars.

So, no Bini is able to substantiate their delusional claim that some 6 0 0 yEaRs oLd wRiTiNg uses the word “oba” for a Benin monarch. This is a colossal embarrassment to all Bini clowns.

————————
PS

So what change, does it.make benin-ife have a connection

Yoruba clown......

samuk:


Nna biko hurry back to tell us that you wrote your bolded above out of hanger and perhaps the frustrations of learning the true history of pre colonial Igbo land from Etino.sa1234. Please don't tell me that Redbon.eSmith is also part of your we

I wouldn't want to believe you have been learning your history from Tao1.1 of nairaland. I am now beginning to understand how TA.O11 has been getting away with her misinformation.

Below is the history of Lagos which is now the most important Yoruba city as far back as 1603, more than 400 years ago. Enjoy the reading. The reference is there for your verification.

The relevant passage in Andreas Ulsheimer's account (from 1603) is the following:

"Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago [Lagos], which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns." - Andreas Ulsheimer's voyage of 1603-4, translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1669 (1983), pp. 40-41

The "forty miles" would be either German miles or perhaps Dutch miles (Ulsheimer was a German, but he was working for the Dutch), not English miles.

At that time, the king of Benin, presumably one of the "warrior-kings" of Benin tradition - most likely either Orhogbua or Ehengbuda - was campaigning directly in the Lagos area (something which Egharevba, who had no idea about Ulsheimer's account, also claimed independently on the basis of tradition in his works on Benin history centuries later) and the "king's house" in "Lago" that Ulsheimer refers to is a reference to his residence there while on campaign. Ulsheimer gives a very brief description of the Benin palace, in Benin City, separately from this, in another part of his account (given on p. 37 of the book by Adam Jones cited above), and so the "king's house" that he mentions in that passage is not a reference to the royal palace, but to a certain royal building in "Lago".

To support ur claims... This is a letter written by the Oba of Lagos in the 1850s that state the Benin influence on Oba of Lagos as at when some people supposedly claim they were kicked out...

I highly doubt settlers in a particular or traders in a particular area have such Powers over the political monarchy of the state they reside... And if it was by trade, then why Benin... why not ijebu or ijaw or other tribes?

It is on record that Lagos has been paying tributes to benin till the year 1850.. why wasn’t it paid to the Ijebu and the ijaw... this goes to show the Benin powerful influences on the kingdom of Lagos. Now ask ur self, would tribute be paid on to a superior power on the basis of trade?

If a Hausa community claims that, they'd have easily been proved wrong in subsequent writings u

There is no precise document on the origin of king ashipa .. benin traditions say he was their grandson while the Lagos own say he was from isheri

His history remains unsure but points brightly to benin

The truth is that, no matter how they try to paint it, Benin influence on Lagos cannot be denied

Juliusmalema
Areafada2
Valirex
Gregyboy

The main question is that if the Benin were supposedly chased out in the early 1800s,why did oba Akitoye write this letter in reference to the Oba of Benin?

Also according to further account, it is noted that the same kosoko she's trying to play away also paid tributes to the Benin

PS... I've been reading a lot about PhysicsQED post and I must say that that Bros knows a lot about Benin culture and references... He last came online 5 years tho...

To @Juliusmalema: In my foregoing PS to you, notice I stated that the Yoruba progenitor of the present monarchy of Lagos (mid/late 1600s) initiated a patron-protegé pact with the then King of Benin.

The consequence of this pact was that this he became the Benin King’s protegé (obviously); he won the Benin king’s support; and he thus emerged ultimately as the preferred prince among all the contesting eligible Yoruba (Awori) princes — whom are all originally descended from the first Olofin of Isheri and hence from the last Olofin of Iddo.

The fact of this original support from the Benin King explains the tradition of making remittances (or tributes) to Benin Kings; as well as the tradition of endorsement (or formal recognition) of successors to the Lagos throne, by Benin Kings.

In fact, I am highly indebted to @Etinosa1234 for having helped to provide one of the evidences which makes this position quite clearer (attached below as highlighted) where it reveals that this practice of formal recognition by Benin kings is not dynastically related to Benin.

The fact that the practice may be set aside (if Oba Akitoye’s complaint in this letter is totally dependable) without any fear of ancestral repercussions is a clear evidence of its non-dynastic, ceremonial, and secondary nature.

In other words, Oba Kosoko’s act of care-freely ignoring any need for the Benin king’s formal recognition emphasizes the fact that the practice itself originally came not from a dynastic-link — but rather from the original patron-protegé pact, as the Lagos version (which is the earlier) maintains.

cc: macof, RedboneSmith, scholes0, gomojam

TAO11:
Regarding my foregoing PS to you @Juliusmalem on how the Yoruba progenitor of the present Lagos dynasty

Below is what the current Oba of Lagos says about his progenitor, the Oba of Benin. You from Ijebu can't claim to know the history of Lagos monarchy more than the Oba of Lagos himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

Etinosa1234:

To support ur claims... This is a letter written by the Oba of Lagos in the 1850s that state the Benin influence on Oba of Lagos as at when some people supposedly claim they were kicked out... I highly doubt settlers in a particular or traders in a particular area have such Powers over the political monarchy of the state they reside... And if it was by trade, then why Benin... why not ijebu or ijaw or other tribes?If a Hausa community claims that, they'd have easily been proved wrong in subsequent writings

PS... I've been reading a lot about PhysicsQED post and I must say that that Bros knows a lot about Benin culture and references... He last came online 5 years tho...

Till today oba of Lagos still claims oba of Benin as his father not Ooni of Ife. Hear him saying that any white cap Lagos chief must salute the Oba of Benin on installation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

samuk:


Till today oba of Lagos still claims oba of Benin as his father not Ooni of Ife. Hear him saying that any white cap Lagos chief must salute the Oba of Benin on installation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

I've been trying hard to access many books on the Great Benin history written by older historians such as H L Roth, Bradbury, Ryder ,Jones, Hodgkins...

I don't know whether it's the Nigerian factor because I only get to see the preview of the books and not the full package ... Can I get to email u if u have any?

I admired PhysicsQED knowledge of our culture and would wish to have so... But I can't even access any books and our libraries are scrap

gregyboy:



So what change, does it.make benin-ife have a connection

Yoruba clown......

Earlier on the thread she was trying to claim Itsekiri monarchy through the Benin royal house which she claimed to be Ife.

She has now finally washed her hands off claiming Benin/Ife relationship because she can't provide it beyond the 1800s, very soon she will also wash her hands off her Oro Oba Ado, Oba of Benin supposed burial site at Ife because there is also no evidence to back that up. Gradually all Yoruba claims on Benin history is being destroyed one by one.

The Benin have just proved that they already owned Lagos as early as 1603 but you want your students to believe that Benin copied the Oba title from Yoruba because you reference a book published in 1899, over 300 years after Benin annexed Lagos and created the monarchy.

You must think your students are dumb or maybe they are.

Benin annexation of Lagos in the 1500s and your Yoruba oba reference of 1899 is over 300 years apart. Benin already owned part of Yoruba land 300 years before the book you referenced was written and you still want your readers to believe Benin copied the title from Yoruba.

Please hear our son the Oba of Lagos again saying who his father is and who him and Lagos chiefs hold their allegiance to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

samuk:


I believe a guy called siversnipper have them, I haven't been seeing him active on nairaland recently.

Ohhh... thanks

Hopefully I get them soon

Thanks boss

Etinosa1234:


Ohhh... thanks

Hopefully I get them soon

Thanks boss

You are welcome, it's nice that you are keeping these guys busy and teaching them the real history.

samuk:


Earlier on the thread she was trying to claim Itsekiri monarchy through the Benin royal house which she claimed to be Ife.

She has now finally washed her hands off claiming Benin/Ife relationship because she can't provide it beyond the 1800s, very soon she will also wash her hands off her Oro Oba Ado, Oba of Benin supposed burial site at Ife because there is also no evidence to back that up. Gradually all Yoruba claims on Benin history is being destroyed one by one.

They just want to force the benin-ife connection for supiority gains and we are not letting them to it, gone are those we argue blindly this time no need for arguments on unverified myth

gregyboy:



They just want to force the benin-ife connection for supiority gains and we are not letting them to it, gone are those we argue blindly this time no need for arguments on unverified myth

Benin is their stumbling block into the south south and south east. If they can claim Benin through their fake Benin/Ife connection, they think they can claim every other tribes in south and middle belt Nigeria that claim Benin ancestry as extension of Yoruba.

They also tried to claim Lagos monarchy by saying Oba of Benin is Yoruba from Ife.

Since we killed the Benin/Ife connection, their history is now largely confined to the 1930s and late 1800s

TAO11:
@Juliusmalema: Notice in my foregoing PS to you that I stated that the Yoruba progenitor of the present ongoing monarchy of Lagos (mid/late 1600s) initiated a patron-protegé pact with the then King of Benin whose support he ultimately won and thus emerging the preferred candidate among all the eligible Yoruba princes from the Olofin lineage.

This pact (which was initiated by the progenitor) continued for centuries to be a primary basis for the traditions of endorsement (or formal recognition) of subsequent successors by Benin Kings.

In fact, I am highly indebted to Etinosa1234 for having helped to provided on of the evidences I may be needing (attached below as highlighted) showing that this practice of formal recognition by Benin kings is not dynastically related to Benin.

The fact that it may be set aside (if Akintoye’s complaint in this letter is dependable) without any fear of ancestral repercussions is clear evidence of its ceremonial and secondary nature — coming merely from a patron-protegé pact between the Yoruba progenitor and the then Benin King.

cc: macof, RedboneSmith, scholes0, gomojam

Lagos Obas are elected or chosen from princes in the already established Lagos ruling houses who themselves were the children of the first Benin monarch of Lagos. Commoners are not elected or chosen. Try again.

You have an uphill battle to surmount as far as Lagos Obas continue to tell the world that they are the children of Oba of Benin.

In the said letter by Akintoye, it was him and his nephew Kosoko, two Benin blood relatives that were fighting.

The current Oba of Lagos clearly stated to the channels tv interviewer that the first Oba of Lagos was a Male son of the Oba of Benin not your Olofin.

samuk:


Lagos Obas are elected or chosen from princes in the already established Lagos ruling houses who themselves were the children of the first Benin monarch of Lagos. Commoners are not elected or chosen. Try again.

You have an uphill battle to surmount as far as Lagos Obas continue to tell the world that they are the children of Oba of Benin.

The current Oba of Lagos clearly stated to the channels tv interviewer that the first Oba of Lagos was a Male son of the Oba of Benin not your Olofin.

They keep peddling lies, but it's like turning water into a basket

valirex:


They keep peddling lies, but it's like turning water into a basket

It's very shameful, she will be regretting now for dabbling into this thread.

So far she has abandoned the Benin/Ife connection lies, the Oro Oba Ado at Ife lies, Lagos has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that it belongs to Benin with Benin line of Obas still ruling the land as testified to by previous and current Oba of Lagos.

Soon they will quietly leave the thread to fight another day.

Like I said before, Yoruba whose history started late 1800s can't debate history with Benin with such proven and intimidating timelines in the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700, 1800s before Yoruba history even began.

Etinosa1234:

To support ur claims... This is a letter written by the Oba of Lagos in the 1850s that state the Benin influence on Oba of Lagos as at when some people supposedly claim they were kicked out...

I highly doubt settlers in a particular or traders in a particular area have such Powers over the political monarchy of the state they reside... And if it was by trade, then why Benin... why not ijebu or ijaw or other tribes?

It is on record that Lagos has been paying tributes to benin till the year 1850.. why wasn’t it paid to the Ijebu and the ijaw... this goes to show the Benin powerful influences on the kingdom of Lagos. Now ask ur self, would tribute be paid on to a superior power on the basis of trade?

If a Hausa community claims that, they'd have easily been proved wrong in subsequent writings u

The truth is that, no matter how they try to paint it, Benin influence on Lagos cannot be denied

Juliusmalema
Areafada2
Valirex
Gregyboy

PS... I've been reading a lot about PhysicsQED post and I must say that that Bros knows a lot about Benin culture and references... He last came online 5 years tho...

PHYSICSQED was my buddy here on Nairaland those years ago. I think he was a doctoral student/research fellow back then. I don't know why he stopped coming here.

He suffered with me when our sophisticated people would block me for defending Benin authentic history here.
As long as late Oba Oyekan and current Oba Akiolu clearly stated their Benin origin, is it commoners, upstart tribalists or those from Osun you will take seriously?
If you see how they are digging deep and working round the clock to deceive people, you will know that Benin history has been perplexing them. Attaching to it by force has not worked, so they are painting it negative.

It's only envy and jealousy that keeps people awake at night so much.

When a child does not get what he desires so much, he will say the thing is even rubbish sef, I didn't even want it.

They wanted Benin people to say we are all same people. Which in their dream would mean because of modern population politics, Benin is part of them. But even a little Benin kid is so historically aware and defiant that you cannot even try that rubbish with him or her.

samuk:
Below is what the current Oba of Lagos says about his progenitor, the Oba of Benin. You from Ijebu can't claim to know the history of Lagos monarchy more than the Oba of Lagos himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

Regarding the part of Oba Akiolu’s interview (which the Binis have clung to as a source of hope, at the expense of his disclaimers); the statement here (on a closer and more careful consideration) does not actually say what it has been assumed all along to have said.

The Oba’s specific statement in question at timestamp 5:00 of the official video (or timestamp 0:12 of the Binis edited video) says and I quote here as follows:

“The first ‘Oba’ of Lagos is a male descendant of Oba of Benin”.

To examine this statement closely and strictly as you would want us to, this specific statement does not necessarily refer to Ashipa as it has been assumed all along. It could plausibly be in respect of Ado his son.

(1) It is not uncommon that both Ado and Ashipa are often equivocally at different times regarded as the first king — just as it is not uncommon with Oranmiyan and Eweka among the Binis.

At an instant in the traditional narratives, Oranmiyan and Ashipa are each simply regarded as progenitor and not Oba. In the same breath, at other instants in the traditional narratives, each is both progenitor as well as Oba.

(2) Furthermore, the phrase Oba Akiolu used, viz. “male descendant” actually has nothing to do with what we’ve assumed it to mean all along. The phrase is not the same thing as “patrilineal descendant”.

“Male descendant” simply recognizes the child to be a descended son from an ancestor — the ancestor being a Benin Oba in this case.

Nothing is said about the son’s mother or father. The descent from the Benin Oba could have been through his own mother or through his own father, in either case of which he is still a “male descendant” of the Benin Oba.

In the light of this closer examination and scrutiny, it becomes obvious that Oba Akiolu’s reference in his own specific statement here is to Ado the son of both Ashipa (the Yoruba progenitor of the Eleko dynasty) and his Bini queen.

Having exposed the foregoing, it now becomes more obvious why Oba Akiolu could have issued a disclaimer (at timestamp 5:45 of the official version of the interview — embedded below with Channels TV logo) declaring that Lagos does not belong to Benin Kingdom.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOsp9VLRFno

In order to hide this particular disclaimer issued by the Oba, the Binis went through the stress of downloading this original video from Channels TV's YouTube page and editing out the parts containing the disclaimer.

They then proceeded to upload their edited version to a private YouTube account from where they’ve copied the YouTube link and pasted to Nairaland to further promote their business of deception. Lol.

Notice the Channels TV logo on the official and original version from Channels TV YouTube page which I posted above.

Compare that to the Rubik's cube logo on their own edited version (from their private account) as shown below.

The Benin fraud didn’t begin today, and it’s probably not ending anytime soon.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

————————
For references to the Lagos account, see the following:

(1) Rev. J. B. Wood, Historical Notices of Lagos, West Africa, 1878.

(2) Rev. J. B. Losi, History of Lagos, 1914.

(3) and Sir Alan Burns, History of Nigeria, 1929.

The first screenshot below shows page 43 from Sir Alan Burns’ documentation of the Lagos account.

cc: macof, scholes0, LegendHero, RedboneSmith, gomojam

samuk:
[s]Lagos Obas are elected or chosen from princes in the already established Lagos ruling houses who themselves were the children of the first Benin monarch of Lagos. Commoners are not elected or chosen. Try again.

You have an uphill battle to surmount as far as Lagos Obas continue to tell the world that they are the children of Oba of Benin.

In the said letter by Akintoye, it was him and his nephew Kosoko, two Benin blood relatives that were fighting.

The current Oba of Lagos clearly stated to the channels tv interviewer that the first Oba of Lagos was a Male son of the Oba of Benin not your Olofin.[/s]

Will you bundle your sickling clownish dry ass out of here and go provide evidence for your delusional claim that there are some “600 years” old written accounts naming/describing a Benin King as “Oba”.

As well as the evidence for your delusional claim that the Yorubas didn’t use “oba” for their kings until after 1 9 3 8.

That’s what you should battling with at the moment — Before I open my eyes: alele!

cc: Afam4eva
————————
PS: Even your illusionary Benin claims over Lagos have just been trashed into my bin: 2- 0

You seem to be getting used to failure like your vice-clown. Not bad! Lol

I am glad this issue came up. Nairalanders now know better.

cc: Juliusmalema

TAO11:


Before I open my eyes, bundle your sickling clownish dry ass out of here and go provide evidence for your delusional claim that there “600 years” old written accounts naming/describing a Benin King as “Oba”.

Oh! As well as the evidence for your delusional claim that the Yorubas didn’t use “oba” for their kings until after 1 9 3 8.

That’s what you should battling with at the moment — oya, alele! grin

cc: Afam4eva
——————-
PS: Your Benin claims of Lagos has been refuted still: 2- 0.

I am glad this came up. The people now know better.

The Benin annexation of Lagos in the 1500s with 1603 documented evidence and living witness accounts by the current Oba of Lagos already proved that Benin own and still ruling the most important Yoruba city for over 400 years and still counting, what more prove do you still need.

Be speaking grammar, people can hear from the Oba of Lagos himself.

samuk:
[s]The Benin annexation of Lagos in the 1500s with 1603 documented evidence and living witness accounts by the current Oba of Lagos already proved that Benin own and still ruling the most important Yoruba city for over 400 years and still counting, what more prove do you still need Be speaking grammar, people can hear from the Oba of Lagos himself.[/s]

ALREADY TRASHED OUT!

Next ...

cc: Juliusmalema

TAO11:
ALREADY TRASHED!

Next ...

Lagos (former Benin colony) is currently Yoruba land still being ruled by Oba that claims Benin ancestry.

Several Yoruba false claims have be killed in this one thread.

Benin/connection fallacy destroyed.

Oro Oba Ado lies killed and thrown out of the window.

Very gratifying.

samuk:
[s] Lagos (former Benin colony) is currently Yoruba land still by ruled by Oba that claims Benin ancestry.

Several Yoruba false claims have be killed in this one thread.

Benin/connection fallacy destroyed.

Oro Oba Ado lies killed and thrown out of the window.

Very gratifying.[/s].

ALSO TRASHED!

For every single claim you make here, you’ve already been trashed with evidence and dumped into my bin .

Why are you mad that Nairalanders now know better?
https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96334238

Next ...

cc: Juliusmalema