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Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. - Religion - Nairaland

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Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 4:19pm On Dec 07, 2020
Jesus is Omniscience, He knows all things,

John 16:30
Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Only Jehovah knows all things

#objection# why didnt Jesua know the time of his coming?

*answer*

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Jesus took on flesh and became a human, Je was a little lower than the angels hence limited as a human but not as God.
Jesus could at limit himself to his humanity only.


Jesus is the created all things and without him not a single created thing can exist

#objection# But God created Jesus first and then used him to create all other things as stated in proverb 8:22

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.




*answer* proverb 8 is a poetic language describing the superiority of wisdom abover every other thing.
Let's look at the hebrew interpretation of that verse,

Lexicon
The LORD
יְֽהוָ֗ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: LORD -- the proper name of the God of Israel

possessed me
קָ֭נָנִי (qā·nā·nî)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular | first person common singular
Strong's Hebrew 7069: To erect, create, to procure, by purchase, to own

at the beginning
רֵאשִׁ֣ית (rê·šîṯ)
Noun - feminine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 7225: The first, in place, time, order, rank

of His work,
דַּרְכּ֑וֹ (dar·kōw)
Noun - common singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1870: A road, a course of life, mode of action

before
קֶ֖דֶם (qe·ḏem)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6924: The front, of place, time

His deeds
מִפְעָלָ֣יו (mip̄·‘ā·lāw)
Noun - masculine plural construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 4659: A work, something made

of old.
מֵאָֽז׃ (mê·’āz)
Preposition-m | Adverb
Strong's Hebrew 227: At that time, place, therefore

The word qanani has a host of meaning, the meaning of a particular word is determined not just by its dictionary meaning but also by the context or place in which it is used, in other words we must consider the combined words and its purpose to expolate its meaning.
While the word qanani can mean, create, possess, to erect, etc the whole of this poetry do not suggest God literally creating wisdom but putting wisdom as the prime quality in all his doings.

The word translated as works is darker which means a course of life, or the way a person lives.

Can you take it to mean wisdom was created before God's principles or God's way of life, that means before wisdom was created God did not have any principle, meaning Jehovah was not God before wisdom was created, certainly not so there must be another interpretation, Which is Jehovah set wisdom as his first principle before others.

So wisdom was never created and if wisdom was never created Jesus who is the wisdom of God was also never created.

Feel free to drop your question in a civil way to avoid ignominy and derailment.


Digest this first I will be bringing out more

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by MaxInDHouse(m): 4:32pm On Dec 07, 2020
Instead of worrying yourself about Jehovah's Witnesses why not go out there, preach and teach in your neighbourhood, gather those who listen to you and form a group of worshipers that will perform better than Jehovah's Witnesses in zealously making disciples from all races and turning lion-like hearts to sheeplike ones? Isaiah 2:2-4 cheesy

Jesus said "by their FRUIT you will know them" {Matthew 7:15-20} he never said by their motivational speeches or arguments Sir!

So let the world see what your teaching can produce first {Matthew 5:13-16} nobody will tell Jehovah's Witnesses that they're not getting it right when you can produce something far better than their group! wink

4 Likes

Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by haddeylium(m): 5:29pm On Dec 07, 2020
livingchrist:
Jesus is Omniscience, He knows all things,

John 16:30
Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Only Jehovah knows all things

#objection# why didnt Jesua know the time of his coming?

*answer*

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Jesus took on flesh and became a human, Je was a little lower than the angels hence limited as a human but not as God.
Jesus could at limit himself to his humanity only.


Jesus is the created all things and without him not a single created thing can exist


"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

If that's the case, cos' of it's new nature.
What about the HOLY SPIRIT?

2 Likes

Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 6:32pm On Dec 07, 2020
haddeylium:


"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

If that's the case, cos' of it's new nature.
What about the HOLY SPIRIT?


This is a severe misunderstanding of Jesus’ words since Christ wasn’t including the Holy Spirit in his discussion. His point was that no human being, no angel, not even himself, knew the exact date of his coming to judge Jerusalem. Here are Jesus’ exact words which helps to illustrate this point:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, NOT EVEN the angels of heaven, NOR the Son, but the Father only." Matthew 24:36

"But of that day or that hour no one knows, NOT EVEN the angels in heaven, NOR the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32

The questioner erroneously has assumed that the phrase "no one knows" is inclusive, that it necessarily includes every single entity with the exception of the Father. On the contrary, the fact that Jesus goes on to mention that neither he nor the angels know clearly indicates that Christ wasn’t referring to every single entity but to a more restricted group. After all, if the phrase "no one knows" meant everyone then there was no need for Christ to mention the angels and himself since they would have naturally been included. Thus, Christ’s statement regarding angels and the Son not knowing demonstrates that Jesus was referring to a specific class of individuals, namely human beings, when he said that no one knows. In other words, Jesus was saying that no human being knows the day he would come to bring judgment upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem for rejecting him, neither the angels, not even himself. This explains why the King James Version rendered the Greek in the following manner:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth NO MAN, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

The translators correctly inferred from the context that "no one" meant no man.

It must be pointed out that phrases such as "no one," "not one," "all," "everyone" etc., are not necessarily inclusive terms, but can have a more limited sense, just as the following examples prove:

"His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which NO ONE knows but himself." Revelation 19:12

John obviously didn’t mean that the Father didn’t know Jesus’ name since he is the Source of the Son’s revelation and has full knowledge of Christ:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John," Revelation 1:1

"All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matthew 11:27

It is obvious that John meant that no creature knows Jesus’ name.

"What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: ‘NONE IS RIGHTEOUS, no, NOT ONE; NO ONE understands, NO ONE seeks for God. ALL have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; NO ONE DOES GOOD, NOT EVEN ONE.’ ‘Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive.’ ‘The venom of asps is under their lips.’ ‘Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.’ ‘Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know.’ ‘There is no fear of God before their eyes.’ Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin." Romans 3:9-20

Paul here is dealing with individuals who have rebelled and willfully violated God’s commands. Again, Paul didn’t mean to include Christ, the elect angels, and infants that die within his list of all those that have willfully sinned and broken God’s commands.

"It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. But there is a place where someone has testified: ‘What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor and put EVERYTHING under his feet?’ In putting EVERYTHING under him, God left NOTHING that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see EVERYTHING subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." Hebrews 2:5-9 NIV

The inspired author of Hebrews cites Psalm 8:4-6 where it says that God has placed everything under the control of man. Now the author of Hebrews didn’t mean that even God himself was made subject to man, even though the expressions "everything" and "nothing" are used. As the Apostle Paul put it:

"Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ‘For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one." 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

These examples should help the readers see why caution must be used before assuming that expressions such as "all," "no one," are inclusive, that they necessarily include everyone and everything. The context will help determine whether these words are being used inclusively or in a more limited sense.

More importantly, the Holy Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit knows everything that God knows and fully comprehends the very mind of God!

"God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God EXCEPT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God." 1 Corinthians 2:10-12

The Holy Scriptures explicitly state that God’s thoughts, his ways, his knowledge are infinite and beyond comprehension:

"O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?’ ‘Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?’ For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:33-36

"O LORD, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." Psalm 139:1-6 ESV

"He determines the number of the stars, he gives to all of them their names. Great is our LORD, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." Psalm 147:4-5

Hence, for the Holy Spirit to know and be able to search the mind of God means that the Holy Spirit is omniscient, that he too knows everything perfectly!

We conclude our discussion in the words of the renowned Bible scholar and commentator John Gill who wrote regarding Matthew 24:36:

… no, not the angels of heaven; who dwell there, always behold the face of God, stand in his presence ready to do his will, and are made acquainted with many of his designs, and are employed in the executing of them, and yet know not the time of God's vengeance on the Jews; to this agrees the sense that is given of the day of vengeance in (Isaiah 63:4) it is asked,

“what is the meaning of these words, "the day of vengeance is in my heart?" Says R. Jochanan, to my heart I have revealed it, to the members I have not revealed it: says R. Simeon ben Lakish, to my heart I have revealed it, (ytylg al trvh ykalml), "to the ministering angels I have not revealed it".”

The Ethiopic version adds here, "nor the son", and so the Cambridge copy of Beza's; which seems to be transcribed from (Mark 13:32) where that phrase stands; and must be understood of Christ as the son of man, and not as the Son of God; for as such, he lay in the bosom of the Father, and knew all his purposes and designs; for these were purposed in him: he knew from the beginning who would betray him, and who would believe in him; he knew what would befall the rejecters of him, and when that would come to pass; as he must know also the day of the last judgment, since it is appointed by God, and he is ordained to execute it: but the sense is, that as he, as man and mediator, came not to destroy, but to save; so it was not any part of his work, as such, to know, nor had he it in commission to make known the time of Jerusalem's ruin: but my Father only; to the exclusion of all creatures, angels AND MEN; but not to the exclusion of Christ as God, who, as such, is omniscient; NOR OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, who is acquainted with the deep things of God, the secrets of his heart, and this among others. (Source; underline and capital emphasis ours)

Another text which is used to deny the omniscience of the Holy Spirit is Matthew 11:27 (cf. Luke 10:22) where Jesus says no one knows the Father or the Son. Again, much like Matthew 24:36 (cf. Mark 13:32), a careful consideration of the immediate context will show that Jesus was speaking of human beings, that no man knows the Father and the Son:

"At that time Jesus declared, ‘I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and NO ONE knows the Son except the Father, and NO ONE knows the Father except the Son and ANY ONE TO WHOM the Son chooses to reveal him.’" Matthew 11:25-27

Here, Jesus refers to God hiding his wisdom from the wise and understanding, and revealing it to babes. This clearly refers to human beings, that God has chosen to reveal himself to humans whom the world considers as unwise and unlearned as opposed to those who are viewed as wise and knowledgeable. As the Apostle Paul put it:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.’ Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18-29

Moreover, the "no one" whom Jesus mentions refers to the "any one to whom" he will choose to reveal God. In other words, Christ will sovereignly and freely choose to reveal himself to specific persons from that group who do not know God. And we know that the objects of Christ's message and revelation are human beings:

"No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." John 1:18

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:20

Thus, the exegesis of the immediate context demonstrates that Jesus' reference to "no one" doesn't include the Holy Spirit (or even the angels for that matter). The context basically shows that Jesus was referring to men, that no human being knows God and therefore is in need of Christ to reveal him.

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Blabbermouth: 7:25pm On Dec 07, 2020
livingchrist:
Jesus is Omniscience, He knows all things,

John 16:30
Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Only Jehovah knows all things
To start with, we share same characteristic in some aspect does not mean we are the same.
1.Angels are immortal.
2.(Only) Jehovah is immortal
3.Angels are Jehovah.. QED.
This fallacy is one many trinitarians are quick to dabble into. Unfortunately, many of these oneness they claim is actually not even true in the purest sense.

Reading John 14:30 from context, you will definitely realize that they aren't saying Jesus is omniscient.
He was talking about the Father from the verse 1 of that chapter, and he said he will stop communicating with figures and reveal the father plainly.
Then the disciples replied him saying - they believe he knows all things (about the person of the father). From John 14 till when he was taken to be crucified, baba was just spitting deep bars about the person of the father.
Read John 17 , He said - This is life eternal, that they may know you.

#objection# why didnt Jesua know the time of his coming?

*answer*

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Jesus took on flesh and became a human, Je was a little lower than the angels hence limited as a human but not as God.
Jesus could at limit himself to his humanity only.
Jesus is the created all things and without him not a single created thing can exist
Now, why don't you guys specify the Jesus [at least, the era, or state] which you refer to.
Jesus is equal to God? Okay, Jesus of which era?
Pre-earth Jesus?
Son-of-man Jesus?
Jesus ressurected?

According to you, Son-of-man Jesus is not Jehovah [at least, he is not equal to him].
8 is not the same as 4+2, why? They are not equal!

How about Jesus ressurected? Well, Jesus ressurected is a new creation, a new man (we both concur to this truth, don't we?), is he Jehovah?

That reminds me, what's your position please?
1. Jesus is Jehovah
2. Jesus is equal to Jehovah.

Jesus is Jehovah is equal to saying Jehovah is now a man. Why? Well,
1. Jehovah is Jesus
2. Jesus abides as a man
3. Jehovah abides as a man

Lol, Jehovah will laugh at you for claiming this.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Aboks: 7:48pm On Dec 07, 2020
MaxInDHouse:
Instead of worrying yourself about Jehovah's Witnesses why not go out there, preach and teach in your neighbourhood, gather those who listen to you and form a group of worshipers that will perform better than Jehovah's Witnesses in zealously making disciples from all races and turning lion-like hearts to sheeplike ones? Isaiah 2:2-4 cheesy

Jesus said "by their FRUIT you will know them" {Matthew 7:15-20} he never said by their motivational speeches or arguments Sir!

So let the world see what your teaching can produce first {Matthew 5:13-16} nobody will tell Jehovah's Witnesses that they're not getting it right when you can produce something far better than their group! wink



Exactly white fowl too dey show em sef na the tin make native doctor dey always use white fowl

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by haddeylium(m): 9:25pm On Dec 07, 2020
livingchrist:

...

Straight question and you're posting someone's article.
That tight?

"Concerning that day and hour noone knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

That verse means exactly what it states
Anything that is an entity are part of the the 'No one knows'
it emphasis that 'even 'Angels, the Son' that ought to didn't.
If HolySpirit is an entity, it's part of the 'No one knows'
Only the Father knows!

This his reply when they asked Further
Acts 1:7-He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction

The appointed time Is according to the Father Jurisdiction, and He said No one knows about this.

If Holy Spirit is part is an entity and part of the Godhead, how come, the appointed time is not according to his authority and it does not know about it?

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 10:14pm On Dec 07, 2020
Blabbermouth:

To start with, we share same characteristic in some aspect does not mean we are the same.
1.Angels are immortal.
2.(Only) Jehovah is immortal
3.Angels are Jehovah.. QED.
This fallacy is one many trinitarians are quick to dabble into. Unfortunately, many of these oneness they claim is actually not even true in the purest sense.
my next post will address this.

Reading John 14:30 from context, you will definitely realize that they aren't saying Jesus is omniscient.
He was talking about the Father from the verse 1 of that chapter, and he said he will stop communicating with figures and reveal the father plainly.
Then the disciples replied him saying - they believe he knows all things (about the person of the father). From John 14 till when he was taken to be crucified, baba was just spitting deep bars about the person of the father.
Read John 17 , He said - This is life eternal, that they may know you.

Now, why don't you guys specify the Jesus [at least, the era, or state] which you refer to.
Jesus is equal to God? Okay, Jesus of which era?
Pre-earth Jesus?
Son-of-man Jesus?
Jesus ressurected?

According to you, Son-of-man Jesus is not Jehovah [at least, he is not equal to him].
8 is not the same as 4+2, why? They are not equal!

How about Jesus ressurected? Well, Jesus ressurected is a new creation, a new man (we both concur to this truth, don't we?), is he Jehovah?

That reminds me, what's your position please?
1. Jesus is Jehovah
2. Jesus is equal to Jehovah.

Jesus is Jehovah is equal to saying Jehovah is now a man. Why? Well,
1. Jehovah is Jesus
2. Jesus abides as a man
3. Jehovah abides as a man

Lol, Jehovah will laugh at you for claiming this.
first of all, it is John chapter 16 not 14,

Secondly, what made the disciples to conclude Jesus knows all things is in verse 19

John 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
They wanted to ask Jesus a question about what he meant but Jesus knew what they wanted to ask, this led them to know Jesus knows all things.
Note this question wasnt about the father but what Jesus actually meant.
The disciples clear meant Jesus is omniscience.


When we say Jesus is equal to Jehovah it means the same as Jesus is Jehovah.

Yes, Jehovah became man that is the meaning of Emmanuel.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 10:16pm On Dec 07, 2020
haddeylium:


Straight question and you're posting someone's article.
That tight?

"Concerning that day and hour noone knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

That verse means exactly what it states
Anything that is an entity are part of the the 'No one knows'
it emphasis that 'even 'Angels, the Son' that ought to didn't.
If HolySpirit is an entity, it's part of the 'No one knows'
Only the Father knows!

This his reply when they asked Further
Acts 1:7-He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction

The appointed time Is according to the Father Jurisdiction, and He said No one knows about this.

If Holy Spirit is part is an entity and part of the Godhead, how come, the appointed time is not according to his authority and it does not know about it?
but you wrote upto 5 paragraphs trying to explain your question, not everything is in black and white.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 10:41pm On Dec 07, 2020
All the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwells in him.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Fullness means complete, whole, without any thing left out.
But what does Godhead mean
New world translation renders it, as the divine qualities

9 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells
The merriam webster defines divine as that relating or proceeding from God.

What about the greek rendition,

For in Him all πᾶν
(pan) 3956: all, every a prim. word
the fullness πλήρωμα
(plērōma) 4138: fullness, a filling up from pléroó
of Deity θεότητος
(theotētos) 2320: deity from theos
dwells κατοικεῖ
(katoikei) 2730: to inhabit, to settle from kata and oikeó
in bodily form, σωματικῶς
(sōmatikōs) 4985: bodily adverb from sómatikos

Theotetos can be translated as deity or divinity
Deity or Divinity simply defines the nature of God.
A deity is what is worshipped, a supernatural being who is increated in the context of the bible.
Jehovah is divine, he is deity angels or men are no deity and hence cannot be.
In Christ dwells the full quality of what made God God, of course that means christ is truly God, for he does not just posses a part of the divine nature but he possess the whole nature.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Blabbermouth: 10:43pm On Dec 07, 2020
livingchrist:
my next post will address this.

first of all, it is John chapter 16 not 14,

Secondly, what made the disciples to conclude Jesus knows all things is in verse 19

John 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
They wanted to ask Jesus a question about what he meant but Jesus knew what they wanted to ask, this led them to know Jesus knows all things.
Note this question wasnt about the father but what Jesus actually meant.
The disciples clear meant Jesus is omniscience.
I expect you to be someone who is a vessel or at least experience what the Spirit of God can do to a man.
Paul discerned in his spirit that a girl whose words were true actually is possessed by a foul spirit.
Elisha knew of Gehazi's cut-deals without being there.
That's what many call WORD OF KNOWLEDGE.
How does Jesus demontrating the WORD OF KNOWLEDGE through the unction of the spirit of God equate to Jesus being omniscient?
Sorry bro, there is a limit to how far you can push this. That scripture never claimed son-of-man was omniscient.
Like I said, Jesus knew all things of the Father.

When we say Jesus is equal to Jehovah it means the same as Jesus is Jehovah.
Yes, Jehovah became man that is the meaning of Emmanuel.
When Jehovah became man, was Jehovah still seated in the throne of heaven?

1 Like

Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by haddeylium(m): 11:30pm On Dec 07, 2020
livingchrist:
but you wrote upto 5 paragraphs trying to explain your question, not everything is in black and white.

You should know better than tag Jws

You're not equipped for this.
Rest!

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by MaxInDHouse(m): 4:49am On Dec 08, 2020
Just because we walk up to them in their homes and after discovering they're not open to kingdom message we quietly walk away, most of them thought JWs are empty-headed like their misinformed churchgoer families.
So he felt like challenging JWs on scriptural debate whereas he is not even fully convinced of what his church teaches.
When they meet our little ones they are puzzled as a young JW less than ten years will stand boldly to speak of his/her faith whereas their own children only strive for jollof rice during Christmas! cheesy
Jehovah's Witnesses i thank you guys for locating me, now i'm one of those that JEHOVAH equipped fully to speak boldly anywhere anytime and before anybody with conviction. Isaiah 54:17



haddeylium:


You should know better than tag Jws

You're not equipped for this.
Rest!

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 7:23am On Dec 08, 2020
Blabbermouth:

I expect you to be someone who is a vessel or at least experience what the Spirit of God can do to a man.
Paul discerned in his spirit that a girl whose words were true actually is possessed by a foul spirit.
Elisha knew of Gehazi's cut-deals without being there.
That's what many call WORD OF KNOWLEDGE.
How does Jesus demontrating the WORD OF KNOWLEDGE through the unction of the spirit of God equate to Jesus being omniscient?
Sorry bro, there is a limit to how far you can push this. That scripture never claimed son-of-man was omniscient.
Like I said, Jesus knew all things of the Father.

When Jehovah became man, was Jehovah still seated in the throne of heaven?
]

Jesus does not just possess word of knowledge but he actually know all things.
You dont even know what you mean by saying Jesus knew all things about the father, for that alone mean Jesus is God.
If Jesus knew all things of the father then he knew all things but again Jesus knew all things meaning he is omniscient for no mere creature can know everything about God whose ways are unsearchable.

Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!



Here, is Peter again repeated it that Jesus actually know all things,

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 7:40am On Dec 08, 2020
John chapter 1 vv1
Declare Jesus to be God

#objection# God is just a title, which anybody can bear, infact psalm 82 says Ye are gods all ye children of the most high.

God said he made moses God over pharaoh,

Satan was called the God of this world.

*Answer* the word Elohim can metaphorically be used to describe some one who occupies a high position like a judge or a king it can not be literally be take as truly God, only yahweh can truly be called God.
Psalm 82 also said they, the children of God would die as men, we all know God does not die meaning, ye are gods can only be taken metaphorically.

In the same way moses was figuratively place as a god over pharaoh this was because pharoah was a heathen king who had rejected yahweh the God of the Jews, so God was going to humiliate pharoah by placing moses over him.

Satan is the god of this world does not make satan truly God, since the world does not know God, they usually place things that is not truly God in the place of God.
That is why satan is called the God of this world.
Galatians 4:8
Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

In the new testament, people in higher authority are not metaphorically called God, so John obviously really meant that Jesus is God.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Blabbermouth: 8:04am On Dec 08, 2020
livingchrist:
Jesus does not just possess word of knowledge but he actually know all things.
All what? Someone that didn't know the exact day of the Lord. Someone that couldn't affirm to the Zebedees if they will occupy the office of the olives in the world to come.

You dont even know what you mean by saying Jesus knew all things about the father, for that alone mean Jesus is God.
Smiles.... You see livingchrist, there is an anointing that comes on you by virtue of the office you occupy.
Jesus as Christ [the messiah] is the reason why he knew all things of the person of the father.
That is one of those things the office of the messiah grants you.

If Jesus knew all things of the father then he knew all things but again
Jesus knew all things meaning he is omniscient for no mere creature can know everything about God whose ways are unsearchable.
No mere creature. But as the messiah, the grace for that abounds bountifully.
Read John 5:19-24

Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Unsearchable, yet he has revealed them to us by his spirit.
Why? Because we are grafted into Christ as a result of this new birth experience.

Here, is Peter again repeated it that Jesus actually know all things,

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
....Till we grow and measure up to the stature and the fullness of Christ.
IfWhen anyone tends towards this bull's eye, all these super knowledge will be a piece of cake to him.
You know how many prophets of old knew deep secrets by the unction of the spirit?
You didn't see the holy spirit at work in Paul?
You didn't see the holy spirit at work in peter?

How does that make anyone of them, omniscient?

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
And who was this referring to?

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 10:23am On Dec 08, 2020
Blabbermouth:

All what? Someone that didn't know the exact day of the Lord. Someone that couldn't affirm to the Zebedees if they will occupy the office of the olives in the world to come.

Smiles.... You see livingchrist, there is an anointing that comes on you by virtue of the office you occupy.
Jesus as Christ [the messiah] is the reason why he knew all things of the person of the father.
That is one of those things the office of the messiah grants you.

No mere creature. But as the messiah, the grace for that abounds bountifully.
Read John 5:19-24

Unsearchable, yet he has revealed them to us by his spirit.
Why? Because we are grafted into Christ as a result of this new birth experience.

....Till we grow and measure up to the stature and the fullness of Christ.
IfWhen anyone tends towards this bull's eye, all these super knowledge will be a piece of cake to him.
You know how many prophets of old knew deep secrets by the unction of the spirit?
You didn't see the holy spirit at work in Paul?
You didn't see the holy spirit at work in peter?

How does that make anyone of them, omniscient?

And who was this referring to?
@ bolded, Jesus knows all things about the father yes, blabbermouth no man can know everything concerning God no angel, or man no matter the annointing.

Go through my reply to haddelyium on why Jesus said he does not know the time of his coming.

Again Peter reaffirmed that Jesus knew all things.

John 16:30
Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Emusan(m): 11:06am On Dec 08, 2020
haddeylium:


"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

If that's the case, cos' of it's new nature.
What about the HOLY SPIRIT?

Just like the case of blasphemy against ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT will make the Father not to be God since the Father wasn't mentioned.

Besides, what is this double standard with you people?

When you don't even use the word Omniscient for God.

And the funny thing is that, the same people who believe God can selectively use His attribute of All-knowing will still argue Jesus can't decide to choose to know things.

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Emusan(m): 11:11am On Dec 08, 2020
livingchrist:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Just try to watch, you'll see how they'll try to inject "OTHER" in between that ALL THINGS.

I don't know how an educated person will see "ALL THINGS" and still believe the word is selective in nature.

That dubious subtraction can be found with only JWs just because everything must be twisted against Christ.

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by haddeylium(m): 11:36am On Dec 08, 2020
Emusan:


Just like the case of blasphemy against ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT will make the Father not to be God since the Father wasn't mentioned.

Jws take is that the holy spirit is God's power in action (Gen 1:2).
Blasphemy against his active force/power is blasphemy against him.
It's not a person/entity

Help your friend, If he is, How come it doesn't know about the day or hour?

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Barristter07: 12:00pm On Dec 08, 2020
haddeylium:


Straight question and you're posting someone's article.
That tight?

"Concerning that day and hour noone knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

That verse means exactly what it states
Anything that is an entity are part of the the 'No one knows'
it emphasis that 'even 'Angels, the Son' that ought to didn't.
If HolySpirit is an entity, it's part of the 'No one knows'
Only the Father knows!

This his reply when they asked Further
Acts 1:7-He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction

The appointed time Is according to the Father Jurisdiction, and He said No one knows about this.

If Holy Spirit is part is an entity and part of the Godhead, how come, the appointed time is not according to his authority and it does not know about it?

Omission of holy spirit proves it's not a person .

Livingchrist is in trouble. grin

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Barristter07: 12:02pm On Dec 08, 2020
haddeylium:


You should know better than tag Jws

You're not equipped for this.
Rest!

One two cheesy

2 Likes

Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Barristter07: 12:03pm On Dec 08, 2020
livingchrist:

@ bolded, Jesus knows all things about the father yes, blabbermouth no man can know everything concerning God no angel, or man no matter the annointing.

Go through my reply to haddelyium on why Jesus said he does not know the time of his coming.

Again Peter reaffirmed that Jesus knew all things.

John 16:30
Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.



Since he knowest all things , was he lying when he said he didn't know the day and hour ?

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by Barristter07: 12:04pm On Dec 08, 2020
haddeylium:

Jws take is that the holy spirit is God's power in action (Gen 1:2).
Blasphemy against his active force/power is blasphemy against him.
It's not a person/entity

Help your friend, If he is, How come it doesn't know about the day or hour?

One two

2 Likes

Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 2:06pm On Dec 08, 2020
Emusan:


Just try to watch, you'll see how they'll try to inject "OTHER" in between that ALL THINGS.

I don't know how an educated person will see "ALL THINGS" and still believe the word is selective in nature.

That dubious subtraction can be found with only JWs just because everything must be twisted against Christ.
I know their gimmick, inserting and changing goal post.
education does not change a man spiritually, they are alienated from God expect all manner of means to get away from the truth
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 2:17pm On Dec 08, 2020
Jehovah is the one that tries the heart,

Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Jesus repeat this same statement for himself

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Jesus is it is he who tries the heart and the reins.
Now if we ask, who tries the heart and the reins,
Jesus said he is the one, meaning there is the only one who does that.

But in the old testament Jehovah is actually the one, in fact the use of the exact same wording in Jeremiah 17 vv 10 is deliberate and it tell us it is the same being.
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by MaxInDHouse(m): 2:44pm On Dec 08, 2020
By the time Peter utter that statement it was obvious that he became fed up with the words of his master who repeatedly asked him Peter do you love me more than this? (referring to Peter's fishing business), then concluding by saying "feed my sheep" (referring to the group Jesus is living in the hands of the Apostles)


Peter saying "you know all things" is like telling Jesus "you've come again with this your riddles, what are you up to this time?"

It was much later when God's holy spirit baptized Peter that his utterances should be taken serious not before then because at times he speaks from the viewpoint of God's holy spirit {Matthew 16:17} and sometimes he speaks from the viewpoint of Satan! Matthew 16:23

For example i've noticed how some misinformed churchgoers often refer to Thomas's comments saying Jesus is God simply because Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and my God" when he saw what he never thought could be possible!

You may choose to argue but when you bring these events down home here you can't deny that people often shout saying "o my God" at the sight of the unimaginable!

So most of the things Jesus' followers said before they were baptized by God's holy spirit is not to be taken as seriously as most of you churchgoers do capitalize on such utterances to establish what should become the general belief of the Christian faith! smiley


livingchrist:

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 3:43pm On Dec 08, 2020
MaxInDHouse:
By the time Peter utter that statement it was obvious that he became fed up with the words of his master who repeatedly asked him Peter do you love me more than this? (referring to Peter's fishing business), the concluding by saying "feed my sheep" (referring to the group Jesus is living in the hands of the Apostles)


Peter saying "you know all things" is like telling Jesus "you've come again with this your riddles, what are you up to this time?"

It was much later when God's holy spirit baptized Peter that his utterances should be taken serious not before then because at times he speaks from the viewpoint of God's holy spirit {Matthew 16:17} and sometimes he speaks from the viewpoint of Satan! Matthew 16:23

For example i've noticed how some misinformed churchgoers often refer to Thomas's comments saying Jesus is God simply because Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and my God" when he saw what he never thought could be possible!

You may choose to argue but when you bring these events down home here you can't deny that people often shout saying "o my God" at the sight of the unimaginable!

So most of the things Jesus' followers said before they were baptized by God's holy spirit is not to be taken as seriously as most of you churchgoers do capitalize on such utterances to establish what should become the general belief of the Christian faith! smiley


If what peter said was wrong why did Christ not rebuke him? After all, when peter spoke in error telling Jesus not to go to Jerusalem Christ rebuked him.
See, just admit the truth of what op said you just cannot argue its truth.

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by MaxInDHouse(m): 4:03pm On Dec 08, 2020
We learn everyday so let's see who needs to yield and where the truth stands!

I believe Jesus only rebuke whenever he's pestered to do something wrong, but when the issue could be pending till God's holy spirit come to teach them what to believe or do regarding an issue Jesus will simply leave it until the time they are matured enough to grasp it.

Note that Peter was rebuking Jesus over the statement that Jesus will suffer and die prematurely {Matthew 16:22} something similar also happened when Samaritans felt undermined as Jesus also want to go up to Jerusalem just as Jews always claim that's the only place pure worship to God should be rendered {John 4:16-22} so they refused to welcome him as God's prophet, his disciples (who were also Jews) asked him to permit them call down fire on the people Jesus immediately rebuked them! Luke 9:51-56

So Jesus only rebuke them when their thoughts or actions is going extreme but when such issue could be pending till the holy spirit comes to enlighten them Jesus will leave that work for God's holy spirit! John 16:12 smiley


livingchrist:
If what peter said was wrong why did Christ not rebuke him? After all, when peter spoke in error telling Jesus not to go to Jerusalem Christ rebuked him.
See, just admit the truth of what op said you just cannot argue its truth.

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by MaxInDHouse(m): 4:31pm On Dec 08, 2020
We can also learn from another example when Jesus wanted to teach his disciples that they must not have anything to do with physical weapons.
They were about going to the place where God's holy spirit have revealed to Jesus that he will be arrested, his followers who strongly believe in his powers where prepared to die (if the worst comes) with him {Matthew 26:25 compared to John 11:16} quick Jesus took the initiative to teach them a lesson, he asked them to buy swords, they told him "we have two" (thinking Jesus will multiply it when the time to use it comes) Luke 22:35-38
But they were totally confused as in flabbergasted when one of them took the initiative to fight and defend Jesus and Jesus again rebuked him saying "put away your sword, those who lead by the sword will perish by the sword"
Let's imagine we were there that day, we have at least two swords (weapons) and as one of us stood up to fight our enemies Jesus performed a life saving miracle on a thug who was paid to come and apprehend him unjustly, what will you do?
So we learned that Jesus wasn't talking about physical swords (weapons) but spiritual sword (God's word) {Ephesians 6:17} WHY? Because he first told them not to go out of their home territories where the people living their have deep respect for God's inspired writings so whenever they quote it the Jews are familiar with the words, but this time around they're to go out of their territories where their audience needs to check and ascertain that what these Jews are saying is confirmed in the inspired writings they have been hearing in Jerusalem's Temple! Act 17:11
So Jesus takes his time to dispense spiritual food at the proper time it is needed {Ecclesiastes 3:1} and left the rest of the job for God's holy spirit to continue helping his disciples! John 14:16

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Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by livingchrist: 5:00pm On Dec 08, 2020
MaxInDHouse:
We learn everyday so let's see who needs to yield and where the truth stands!

I believe Jesus only rebuke whenever he's pestered to do something wrong, but when the issue could be pending till God's holy spirit come to teach them what to believe or do regarding an issue Jesus will simply leave it until the time they are matured enough to grasp it.

Note that Peter was rebuking Jesus over the statement that Jesus will suffer and die prematurely {Matthew 16:22} something similar also happened when Samaritans felt undermined as Jesus also want to go up to Jerusalem just as Jews always claim that's the only place pure worship to God should be rendered {John 4:16-22} so they refused to welcome him as God's prophet, his disciples (who were also Jews) asked him to permit them call down fire on the people Jesus immediately rebuked them! Luke 9:51-56

So Jesus only rebuke them when their thoughts or actions is going extreme but when such issue could be pending till the holy spirit comes to enlighten them Jesus will leave that work for God's holy spirit! John 16:12 smiley


thank God it is your own personal opinion, well it has no bearing in the bible, there are other occasion Jesus corrected the errors of disciples even why they were not pestering or actions going on extreme Jesus didnt leave them in error.

One, was when there was an argument among them whi should be the greatest.

Two, after his resurrection they thought Jesus was a Spirit he corrected them.

Jesus never left them in error.


can you show any proof where God's holy Spirit corrected peter?
Re: Proof To Jehovah Witnesses That Jesus Is Jehovah. by MaxInDHouse(m): 5:23pm On Dec 08, 2020
livingchrist:

thank God it is your own personal opinion well it has no bearing in the bible, there are other occasion Jesus corrected the errors of disciples even why they were not pestering or actions going on extreme Jesus didnt leave them in error.
No Sir the highlighted is what a global family of peace loving worshipers agreed upon as the truth and we are all living by it!

One, was when there was an argument among them whi should be the greatest.
Two, after his resurrection they thought Jesus was a Spirit he corrected them.
You are talking about a serious issue that could break the group, if each of the Apostles feel like he's the greatest then the spirit of division will surely have it's place amongst them, so Jesus can't allow such case to wait!


Jesus never left them in error
He never left them in error but there are many things he did not teach them meaning such things could wait, don't forget that teachings isn't just a game it involves thoughts and actions that must be corrected, so for Jesus to have said "there are many things i need to teach you but you can't bear it now" it means such teachings will be difficult for them to grasp yet it involves things they are thinking or doing in error otherwise they don't need it! undecided

can you show any proof where God's holy Spirit corrected peter?
The holy spirit doesn't correct a single individual Sir,another misconception you churchgoers have, God's holy spirit corrects the thoughts and actions of the whole Christian congregation as a family {Act 15:1-2, 22-29} so after the agreement whoever choose not to comply is no more a member of the group! 3John :9

Jehovah's Witnesses globally welcomes it with great joy when the holy spirit brings a brighter understanding of what we formerly hold in error! Proverbs 4:18

That's why we are united in faith and understanding! 1Corinthians 1:10, 14:33, 40

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