madegreatbygrace:
Those who are believers wouldn’t turn traitor and betray Christ. According to John 6:64 , Judas was among those that didn’t believe.
This unbelief led to betrayal.
Time revealed what was actually in Judas’ heart, and who his real master was.

Really?
Remember Peter? He is famous for denying Jesus Christ, not once but thrice. He went back to fishing to being a fisherman but was called back, in a way, by Jesus Christ Himself.

madegreatbygrace:
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
So his case was not a picture of a swan becoming dirty, but of a pig that never left the mud.

Try to see Peter in light of what John wrote there in his letter, and maybe you gain insight into what John was in fact speaking of.

quote author=Myer post=97268095]

What does it mean to lose some one?

That means he was once saved.

“for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You can see how Jesus used the word “lost” here.

Lost means unsaved. Never saved for once.

Unless you want to give it a different meaning that fits your narrative.

Obviously, your ignorance of simple Bible texts is abysmal.

Toks2008:


By believing in Christ, you have overcome.

I guess I will stop here. May GOD guide us.

Not according to Jesus Christ!

bomsilaga:

The devil has skewed it so bad to the point that a simple gift of salvation is so greatly misunderstood by the larger majority.
Making it hard doesn't show it is the way.
It's as easy as John 3:16 but yet people are looking for steps to salvation.

Salvation does not come with the guarantee of Heaven though and that happens to be the major problem with the OPs claim.

Kobojunkie:
Salvation does not come with the guarantee of Heaven though and that happens to be the major problem with the OPs claim.

I wonder how you read your bible. That your statement is a blatant lie

madegreatbygrace:



“for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You can see how Jesus used the word “lost” here.

Lost means unsaved. Never saved for once.

Unless you want to give it a different meaning that fits your narrative.

Obviously, your ignorance of simple Bible texts is abysmal.

Here yet again, context is king. if you go back through the passage to digest the story in it's entirety, you will note the difference in the statements made by Jesus Christ in this instance as compared to the earlier situation.

For one, Jesus Christ did not claim Zaccheus and his family as part of His own flock but as God's chosen- very important detail there and a very good reason for this, part of which we learnt is while examining an earlier passage

madegreatbygrace:



“for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You can see how Jesus used the word “lost” here.

Lost means unsaved. Never saved for once.

Unless you want to give it a different meaning that fits your narrative.

Obviously, your ignorance of simple Bible texts is abysmal.

This is exactly why you keep misinterpreting the scriptures.
How can you compare the use of lost in both contexts?

“for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

JOHN 17:12  12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Let's not forget what this discussion is about- that someone who was once saved can be lost either
- through willful sins Hebrews 10:26-27
- through greed (love of money) 1 Timothy 6:10
- through loss of faith Luke 18:8

This was also confirmed by the apostles Paul and Peter in their epistles when some of their followers strayed from the faith.

madegreatbygrace:


Those who are believers wouldn’t turn traitor and betray Christ. According to John 6:64 , Judas was among those that didn’t believe.

This unbelief led to betrayal.

Time revealed what was actually in Judas’ heart, and who his real master was.


“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So his case was not a picture of a swan becoming dirty, but of a pig that never left the mud.

Everyone is supposedly a pig that needs Christ to become clean. Maybe you are the exception who is perfect.

You forget that all the disciples deserted Jesus when he was captured.

Was that not betrayal?

But he forgave them knowing they're only human.

They even forsook the gospel and went back fishing when he was killed because they never understood.

Until the journey at Emmaus when he appeared to some of them and opened their understanding. Luke 24:13-31

Myer:


This is exactly why you keep misinterpreting the scriptures.
How can you compare the use of lost in both contexts?

“for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

JOHN 17:12  12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Let's not forget what this discussion is about- that someone who was once saved can be lost either
- through willful sins Hebrews 10:26-27
- through greed (love of money) 1 Timothy 6:10
- through loss of faith Luke 18:8

This was also confirmed by the apostles Paul and Peter in their epistles when some of their followers strayed from the faith.

All those scriptures you quoted that believers can lose their salvation is totally out of place.


Using Luke 18:8 to justify that, is totally ridiculous, Luke 18:1-8 was a parable used by Jesus to encourage prayer

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to teach them that they should always pray and never become discouraged. Luke 18:1.

Apart from that, how can you use parable as a source of doctrine

sammy329:
All those scriptures you quoted that believers can lose their salvation is totally out of place.


Using Luke 18:8 to justify that, is totally ridiculous, Luke 18:1-8 was a parable used by Jesus to encourage prayer

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to teach them that they should always pray and never become discouraged. Luke 18:1.

Apart from that, how can you use parable as a source of doctrine

Luke 18:8 is an intermediary between the two parables. Where Jesus explained the moral of the parable he had just shared.

You would have noticed this if you paid attention to details.

Parables are to teach spiritual truths using natural illustrations.

Jesus shared the parable to teach faith in prayer.
Then he questioned if men will still have faith or if they would have strayed as a result of unanswered prayers. I hope that helps you understand how it relates to loss of salvation now.

Myer:


Luke 18:8 is an intermediary between the two parables. Where Jesus explained the moral of the parable he had just shared.

You would have noticed this if you paid attention to details.

Oya read for your self oooo, where did Jesus said a believer can lose salvation.

Luke 18:1-8 (KJV) And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Find another bible verse, using Luke 18:8 is ridiculous

sammy329:
Oya read for your self oooo, where did Jesus said a believer can lose salvation.

Luke 18:1-8 (KJV) And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Re-read my last response. Modified and clarified for your comprehension.

Myer:


Re-read my last response. Modified and clarified for your comprehension.

I tell you, He will defend and protect and avenge them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find [persistence in] faith on the earth? Luke 18:8 Amplified version

At least amplified version should help you better, the faith in that context was talking about persistent in prayer.

@Myer

sammy329:
I tell you, He will defend and protect and avenge them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find [persistence in] faith on the earth? Luke 18:8 Amplified version

At least amplified version should help you better, the faith in that context was talking about persistent in prayer.

Whether persistent of inconsistent faith, the import is they would have lost faith.

Using different versions of the bible to get your desired meaning will only create further omplications in your eisegesis. You will end up reading your own meaning into scriptures instead of accepting the obvious exegesis.

That said, my intention is not to convince you but simply to share what the bible says. It's your choice to do your own study as the Bereans and either accept or reject it.

Also, the other references in Hebrews (Willful sins) and Timothy (Greed) both confirm salvation can be lost.

Revelations 20:12 also confirms that everyone is going to be judged according to their works not their faith.

But what always causes this confusion is there are also scriptures that seems to confirm that salvation cannot be lost so I do understand your resistance.

Myer:


Whether persistent of inconsistent faith, the import is they would have lost faith.

Using different versions of the bible to get your desired meaning will only create further omplications in your eisegesis. You will end up reading your own meaning into scriptures instead of accepting the obvious exegesis.

That said, my intention is not to convince you but simply to share what the bible says. It's your choice to do your own study as the Bereans and either accept or reject it.

Also, the other references in Hebrews (Willful sins) and Timothy (Greed) both confirm salvation can be lost.

Revelations 20:12 also confirms that everyone is going to be judged according to their works not their faith.

But what always causes this confusion is there are also scriptures that seems to confirm that salvation cannot be lost so I do understand your resistance.

I use different bible version, to help you in your comprehension, English is not too hard naaah

@Myer Rev 20:12 was about the Great White throne Judgment not the judgement of Christ. The believers will not be judged of sin, because Christ has been judged of it already.

@Myer 1 Tim 6:10 was never about believers loosing their salvation, it was about believers loosing their feet due to greed.

You claim to uphold true, biblical exegesis yet you deliberately quote scriptures out of context, you are the one making a bible eisegesis

sammy329:
I use different bible version, to help you in your comprehension, English is not too hard naaah

The errors inherent due to multiple bible translations is a discussion for another day.

I'll show you how two different translations of the same bible verse stated direct opposites.

Scriptures that affirms our eternal security in Christ.

1. Hebrews 10:10 (KJV) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

2. Hebrews 10:14 (KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

3. Hebrews 9:12 (KJV) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

4. John 3:15-16 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

5. Hebrews 5:9 (KJV) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

6.Hebrews 10:17 (KJV) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

7. Isaiah 54:8-9 (KJV) In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Myer:


The errors inherent due to multiple bible translations is a discussion for another day.

I'll show you how two different translations of the same bible verse stated direct opposites.

I know, even KJV is not free those errors, that why I make sure to read in context and make use of Strong's bible concordance for the Hebrew and Greek word of bible verse.

sammy329:
@Myer 1 Tim 6:10 was never about believers loosing their salvation, it was about believers loosing their feet due to greed.

You claim to uphold true, biblical exegesis yet you deliberately quote scriptures out of context, you are the one making a bible eisegesis

How did I read my own meaning into it.
Let's delve deeper into the sane chapter so you can see the conclusion, maybe the context would clarify this discussion.

Timothy 6:18-21
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.

In Summary;
Verse 18 once again reiterates the emphasis on good works.
Verse 19 states clearly that they MAY take hold on to eternal life. Meaning they may also not attain it if they stray.
Verse 20 explains that false doctrines creep into the faith.
Finally Verse 21 clearly states that some have strayed from the faith. If you were to explain that, what does it mean?

Myer:


How did I read my own meaning into it.
Let's delve deeper into the sane chapter so you can see the conclusion, maybe the context would clarify this discussion.

Timothy 6:18-21
18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.

In Summary;
Verse 18 once again reiterates the emphasis on good works.
Verse 19 states clearly that they MAY take hold on to eternal life. Meaning they may also not attain it if they stray.
Verse 20 explains that false doctrines creep into the faith.
Finally Verse 21 clearly states that some have strayed from the faith. If you were to explain that, what does it mean?

Verse 17-18

1 Timothy 6:17-18 (KJV) Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

This is an instruction from Paul to Timothy to tell rich people not be high-minded and trust in uncertain riches i.e. the riches that won't last. He instructed them that being generous will store up true riches, which corroborate with the word of Jesus in Matt. 6:19-20.

What is the Lesson here: Generosity, not saying that believers could lose their salvation.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (KJV) O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Paul instructed Timothy to avoid the profane talk and foolish arguments of what some people wrongly call “Knowledge.” That making those kind of argument is not point of Christian faith

CONTEXT IS KING

quote author=sammy329 post=97303656]Oya read for your self oooo, where did Jesus said a believer can lose salvation.

Luke 18:1-8 (KJV) And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Don’t waste your time trying to convince those that have their own opinions. They won’t learn because they think they know.

A word is enough for the wise.

Again....Salvation does not come with the guarantee of Heaven though and that happens to be the major problem with the OPs claim. Jesus Christ made this fact clear in His many Parables concerning the Kingdom of Heaven. That you are saved from the condemnation of sin which is death (Salvation) does not then imply that you are guaranteed a place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Be careful that you do not ignorantly hold on to doctrines and rules of men which are nothing but lies taught in the name of God.

Kondomatic:
I am not interested in going to heaven anyways

SoftP:
Have u been to heaven before

All this motivational speakers and their ideologies

What if the Buddhist are the only true worshippers of God

Isaiah 55:8 ( My thoughts are not ur thoughts, neither My ways.....)

Originalsly:
I thought judgement was reserved for God. No man knows his fate until the day of judgement.... so why would you even tell someone that he can make it if he follows whatever steps?

Whilst is off the mark by several infinite miles, your claim there is equally wrong. Yes, after judgement one is to get the final verdict, however, it is not impossible for one to know without a shadow of a doubt what awaits him/her after death.

The apostles for instance knew even before Jesus Christ left the earth that a place await them in Heaven. Stephen, and I dare say many of the first Christians knew before their deaths what the verdict would be at final judgement for them. And it's possible for each man to know his fate even today as well.

Kobojunkie:


Whilst is off the mark by several infinite miles, your claim there is equally wrong. Yes, after judgement one is to get the final verdict, however, it is not impossible for one to know without a shadow of a doubt what awaits him/her after death.

The apostles for instance knew even before Jesus Christ left the earth that a place await them in Heaven. Stephen, and I dare say many of the first Christians knew before their deaths what the verdict would be at final judgement for them. And it's possible for each man to know his fate even today as well. :-

How did they know?

Originalsly:

How did they know?

Jesus Christ told, this through His teachings and commandments, how to guarantee we can up in Heaven at the end of the day - Enter through the narrow Gate that leads to True Life where Jesus Christ is The Way, the Truth and the Life - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 and Luke 13 vs 24 - 28

And He taught us that those who will enter in through that gate are those who trust and Obey His teachings and commandments, those who live according to His commandments- John 14 vs 15 - 25 and John 15 vs 1 -11. . Heaven and how to get into it is a mystery only to those who refuse to live in continuous submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's very own New Covenant and Law in the Kingdom of God.

In fact Jesus Christ promised those who in fact enter into the Kingdom of God through the Narrow gate, will have the Spirit of Truth, His very own Spirit, being witness to them constantly of whose they are. And the Spirit of Truth, the other Helper, is with them 24/7 reminding them of Jesus Christ's teachings and laws.

Kobojunkie:


Jesus Christ told, this through His teachings and commandments, how to guarantee we can up in Heaven at the end of the day - Enter through the narrow Gate that leads to True Life where Jesus Christ is The Way, the Truth and the Life - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 and Luke 13 vs 24 - 28

And He taught us that those who will enter in through that gate are those who trust and Obey His teachings and commandments, those who live according to His commandments- John 14 vs 15 - 25 and John 15 vs 1 -11. . Heaven and how to get into it is a mystery only to those who refuse to live in continuous submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's very own New Covenant and Law in the Kingdom of God.

In fact Jesus Christ promised those who in fact enter into the Kingdom of God through the Narrow gate, will have the Spirit of Truth, His very own Spirit, being witness to them constantly of whose they are. And the Spirit of Truth, the other Helper, is with them 24/7 reminding them of Jesus Christ's teachings and laws.

This doesn't answer the question How did they know ( a place await them in Heaven?)