budaatum:

We are not arguing about "which ones you have a better chance of defending" abbey, but about which is perceived to be the greater crime!

So which is it, failing to file or fiddling?

I already told you according to U.S tax laws one is a certainty and the other can be defended. So the U.S tax laws already decided which one is the greater crime. Failing to file taxes when you have a tax liability is an automatic fine/penalty from the IRS. While fiddling can be defended when you get audited, only when you fail to defend yourself during an audit do you get to face consequences. I hope this clears up the confusion?

Queenlovely:
When the white man mean you,tax is his greatest weapon of choice

American government hates tax evasion,
While Rich men find loophole in the system

They hire the finest lawyers for their case.

That is where attorneys make money, not in Nigeria where we have charge and bail lawyers.

You want to copy America style in Nigeria,
Going to study law in Nigeria is suicide,

The lawyers in Nigeria are uncountable already.

Use ur head, lawyers make money were there are good industry development.

Use ur sense or you become an ambulance chaser

Buhari weapon of choice are many, Errorin Certificate, or accusations of corruption is the few

building a house on a waterway without environmental impact assessment

How about trying to stay on the topic Mr. Man?

abbey621:

While fiddling can be defended when you get audited, only when you fail to defend yourself during an audit do you get to face consequences. I hope this clears up the confusion?

You can defend against both!

What is the penalty if your defence against fiddling fails?

budaatum:

You can defend against both!

What is the penalty if your defence against fiddling fails?

Failing to file when you have a tax liability is an automatic fine/penalty or worse, there's no compromise, don't argue just for argument's sake! You can try to defend but it won't work.

Fiddling on the other hand depends on the strength of your defense, if your defense fails you get fined and pay up....SIMPLE!

abbey621:


I would agree with you if not that you overlooked one crucial detail! THE GUY IS ALREADY BEING AUDITED! No one under an audit can escape scrutiny, it is not possible for IRS to just go by what you said, when you're audited they get receipts, testimonies, third party verifications etc. If you are familiar with the IRS, you would know no state justice dept has more resources than them when it comes to tax cases, there's a reason the IRS is feared more than the FBI or any other agency in the USA.

I can see where the disconnect is, the NY AG is not requesting Trump’s taxes in order to audit him, it is a criminal investigation.

The IRS audit is still ongoing and they usually end up with a settlement.

The AG have more scope and resources compare to the IRS, they need his taxes to establish his baseline income because one of the allegations were that, he inflates his income willynilly to get loans from banks and that is out of scope for IRS....they are also looking at stormy Daniel payment and how it was reflected in his tax returns e.g. is it a business expense or campaign expense or company expense or directly from Trump....as a business or campaign, there is a way he can code that payment and IRS will be okay with it e.g. payment to a consultant for services, etc; but under a criminal invests by the AG or a DA that is a crime.

They also have access to his foreign taxes, income, etc..the DA can cross check that with US declarations, the IRS does not have that reach.

When I say the AG or DA have more resources than the IRS, I also include tools, powers, etc. e.g. the AG or DA can subpoena documents and evidences from third party individuals and companies, IRS cannot walk into my business and compel me to furnish evidence against another company or individual or provide invoices or receipts when am not the subject of a probe, I will tell them to pound sand.

IRS gets you only if eg if have a big winning or deposits or another company send then a 1099 as part of their tax filings and you did not account for those in your filings and off course if there are obvious lies in your filings. Given the fact that, they receive close to 300 million tax filings every single year, they do not even have the same level of staff dedicated to individual filings to start looking into forensic, getting third party documents etc to start combing through your filing, most of the audits are done by computers, so the AG or DA have more resources, their scope of what they can do is broader and their powers are also more broader than that of the IRS.

In conclusion, yes people fear IRS very well not to mess up with their taxes.....but those same set of people fear the AG or DA more than the IRS, therefore they don’t commit financial crimes either...The former would send you a letter in the mail to pay up, if you are audited and found wanting and that will be the end of it, the later will give you a felony record and send you to jail for a very long time.

Baba already knows what's coming if he doesn't win his re-election.

He needs to lawyer up like mad. Maybe Giuliani can help him out. Lol

Michael Cohen was right afterall. He never wanted to leave peacefully.

abbey621:


I already told you why he hid it, he does not want to seem poorer than he is and he does not want the public to know he does not pay taxes, it was strictly reputational and there's no crime in that but once again believe what you will, we can't all see the light, sleep well my friend

Lol I don wake.

Look bro, there was a reason no Bank loaned Trump money except Deutsche Bank. Probably because they already knew who he was a long time ago.... And don't forget Deutsche Bank had strong ties to the Russian Government.

So your assumptions that all Banks will process your assets before granting loans doesn't really hold water. Cos even rich men here in Nigeria get loans easier from financial institutions than the average man.

Even Don Jr had made a statement about how they don't get loans from American Banks but disproportionately from the Russians.

The simple truth is that Trump's business dealings as a whole has been shady as well as his taxes...so scrutinizing it will only make him scared like the way he is now.

linearity:


I can see where the disconnect is, the NY AG is not requesting Trump’s taxes in order to audit him, it is a criminal investigation.

The IRS audit is still ongoing and they usually end up with a settlement.

The AG have more scope and resources compare to the IRS, they need his taxes to establish his baseline income because one of the allegations were that, he inflates his income willynilly to get loans from banks and that is out of scope for IRS....they are also looking at stormy Daniel payment and how it was reflected in his tax returns e.g. is it a business expense or campaign expense or company expense or directly from Trump....as a business or campaign, there is a way he can code that payment and IRS will be okay with it e.g. payment to a consultant for services, etc; but under a criminal invests by the AG or a DA that is a crime.

They also have access to his foreign taxes, income, etc..the DA can cross check that with US declarations, the IRS does not have that reach.

When I say the AG or DA have more resources than the IRS, I also include tools, powers, etc. e.g. the AG or DA can subpoena documents and evidences from third party individuals and companies, IRS cannot walk into my business and compel me to furnish evidence against another company or individual or provide invoices or receipts when am not the subject of a probe, I will tell them to pound sand.

IRS gets you only if eg if have a big winning or deposits or another company send then a 1099 as part of their tax filings and you did not account for those in your filings and off course if there are obvious lies in your filings. Given the fact that, they receive close to 300 million tax filings every single year, they do not even have the same level of staff dedicated to individual filings to start looking into forensic, getting third party documents etc to start combing through your filing, most of the audits are done by computers, so the AG or DA have more resources, their scope of what they can do is broader and their powers are also more broader than that of the IRS.

In conclusion, yes people fear IRS very well not to mess up with their taxes.....but those same set of people fear the AG or DA more than the IRS, therefore they don’t commit financial crimes either...The former would send you a letter in the mail to pay up, if you are audited and found wanting and that will be the end of it, the later will give you a felony record and send you to jail for a very long time.

Great analysis but I'm sorry but most of what you wrote is just not reality, have you ever been truly audited? I do this for a living and I can tell you once you are audited, there's no agency in the world with the amount of resources the IRS has at its disposal, I'm not talking about audit of an average person but of super corporations and wealthy people. The IRS can and will compel you to defend yourself with receipts, testimonies etc, in fact they demand statistical and accounting accuracy, failure to do this will result in a failed audit and unintended consequences. For example, during an audit of a company I used to work for, not only were bank accounts frozen but they walked into the building and took away all the hard drives and any documents they could find. You mentioned IRS does not have international reach and I laugh, try to obtain IRS audit documents against Amazon and Apple, you'll be surprised at how much reach they have.

Moving on, inflation of income to get loan is not something the AG can win without some help since it is subjective, I can value my company at 100 million this year and 2 years later revise the value to 50 million, goodluck proving it was done with malixcious intent, remmeber this is not about sentiments but what can be proven in court, the best bet is for the bank to directly sue Trump but then again it would be civil and not criminal, the DG only course of action is to try and prove tax evasion. In addition, the payment to Stormy Daniels in itself is not a criminal offense, it is more of an accounting error that will not lead to any jail term, for example I own multiple businesses, if I mistakenly put a personal expense on a business tax form and get audited for it, I just adjust or pay the fine. I'm trying hard here to see the criminal case, it increasingly looks more and more like a civil case but I guess we'll see. Tax evasion is a serious crime but there's a reason majority of people get to pay fines instead of serving jail sentence, we'll see what happens.

kponkedenge:


Lol I don wake.

Look bro, there was a reason no Bank loaned Trump money except Deutsche Bank. Probably because they already knew who he was a long time ago.... And don't forget Deutsche Bank had strong ties to the Russian Government.

So your assumptions that all Banks will process your assets before granting loans doesn't really hold water. Cos even rich men here in Nigeria get loans easier from financial institutions than the average man.

Even Don Jr had made a statement about how they don't get loans from American Banks but disproportionately from the Russians.

The simple truth is that Trump's business dealings as a whole has been shady as well as his taxes...so scrutinizing it will only make him scared like the way he is now.

So if a bank failed to do its due diligence, you believe Trump will be held criminally liable for such failure? Until Deutsche Bank decides to prosecute Trump, this will remain a comical adventure. Yes Trump is shady but a wise man once said, it's not about what you did, it's about what they can prove you did......The mistake here is thinking a criminal case will hold up, there's a reason why most of the lawsuits against Trump are civil ones, the burden of proof is a lot lower than a criminal case.

abbey621:


So if a bank failed to do its due diligence, you believe Trump will be held criminally liable for such failure? Until Deutsche Bank decides to prosecute Trump, this will remain a comical adventure. Yes Trump is shady but a wise man once said, it's not about what you did, it's about what they can prove you did......The mistake here is thinking a criminal case will hold up, there's a reason why most of the lawsuits against Trump are civil ones, the burden of proof is a lot lower than a criminal case.

You're really relentless aren't you? No problem.... I will look for this handle when he gets indicted.

There's no way Trump will get out of this and possibly the federal crime of trying to stage a Coup should the Biden DOJ decides to pursue it which I strongly believe they will....so as to deter future coup plotters.

Let's see how it goes... And I enjoyed your conversation by the way.

abbey621:


Great analysis but I'm sorry but most of what you wrote is just not reality, have you ever been truly audited? I do this for a living and I can tell you once you are audited, there's no agency in the world with the amount of resources the IRS has at its disposal, I'm not talking about audit of an average person but of super corporations and wealthy people. The IRS can and will compel you to defend yourself with receipts, testimonies etc, in fact they demand statistical and accounting accuracy, failure to do this will result in a failed audit and unintended consequences. For example, during an audit of a company I used to work for, not only were bank accounts frozen but they walked into the building and took away all the hard drives and any documents they could find. You mentioned IRS does not have international reach and I laugh, try to obtain IRS audit documents against Amazon and Apple, you'll be surprised at how much reach they have.

Moving on, inflation of income to get loan is not something the AG can win without some help since it is subjective, I can value my company at 100 million this year and 2 years later revise the value to 50 million, goodluck proving it was done with malixcious intent, remmeber this is not about sentiments but what can be proven in court, the best bet is for the bank to directly sue Trump but then again it would be civil and not criminal, the DG only course of action is to try and prove tax evasion. In addition, the payment to Stormy Daniels in itself is not a criminal offense, it is more of an accounting error that will not lead to any jail term, for example I own multiple businesses, if I mistakenly put a personal expense on a business tax form and get audited for it, I just adjust or pay the fine. I'm trying hard here to see the criminal case, it increasingly looks more and more like a civil case but I guess we'll see. Tax evasion is a serious crime but there's a reason majority of people get to pay fines instead of serving jail sentence, we'll see what happens.

I believe we essentially agree on most facts, my only that; you seem to be thinking that the IRS have the same scope, power and resources aka tools in it's disposal compare to a criminal investigation by an AG or DA, which I disagree. Yes the IRS have lots of power within it's narrow scope, but the AG or DA have a wider scope.

Also, regarding the Stormy Daniel hush money payment and that to another woman, yes he can decide to say, it was a mistake and pay IRS back; but the NY AG is looking at it from a campaign finance fraud angle aka illegal contribution, which carries some jail time and which is beyond an IRS audit, plus Trump personal Attorney who made those payments is willing to testify against Trump, which might meet the burden of proof in cases like these.

As far as inflating or deflating one's businesses to banks, insurance companies versus IRS, to obtain loans, grant or favors...The AG & DA have been doing this for years and they know business valuation can fluctuate year to year and they will take that in to consideration, but that is not what they are alleging. They are alleging that, these inflation/deflation happen within same period and interchangeably and also rampant and back to back.

What I believe ultimately is that, it is more likely he will not be charged for anything unless the AG/DA are 200% sure that, they got the evidence and can prove it in a court of law or like in the past, Trump will just run behind the scene and settle with the AG of New York.

Around November 2019, Trump Foundation settled another case with New York and paid about $2 million for illegally using charitable donations and part of the settlement ordered that Trump Foundation, NY be shutdown. This is the type of investigation that NY is currently pursuing which are out of scope for IRS. Also not that, NY is looking at state level investigations, charges, crimes, etc and the IRS that has been auditing Trump is Fed, so different scope again and IRS is greatly underfunded, as a result billionaires can run circles around them and purposely elongate the audit process.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-technology-archive-c99697ac657534d6015894377d04eb1f

linearity:


I believe we essentially agree on most facts, my only that; you seem to be thinking that the IRS have the same scope, power and resources aka tools in it's disposal compare to a criminal investigation by an AG or DA, which I disagree. Yes the IRS have lots of power within it's narrow scope, but the AG or DA have a wider scope.

Also, regarding the Stormy Daniel hush money payment and that to another woman, yes he can decide to say, it was a mistake and pay IRS back; but the NY AG is looking at it from a campaign finance fraud angle aka illegal contribution, which carries some jail time and which is beyond an IRS audit, plus Trump personal Attorney who made those payments is willing to testify against Trump, which might meet the burden of proof in cases like these.

As far as inflating or deflating one's businesses to banks, insurance companies versus IRS, to obtain loans, grant or favors...The AG & DA have been doing this for years and they know business valuation can fluctuate year to year and they will take that in to consideration, but that is not what they are alleging. They are alleging that, these inflation/deflation happen within same period and interchangeably and also rampant and back to back.

What I believe ultimately is that, it is more likely he will not be charged for anything unless the AG/DA are 200% sure that, they got the evidence and can prove it in a court of law or like in the past, Trump will just run behind the scene and settle with the AG of New York.

Around November 2019, Trump Foundation settled another case with New York and paid about $2 million for illegally using charitable donations and part of the settlement ordered that Trump Foundation, NY be shutdown. This is the type of investigation that NY is currently pursuing which are out of scope for IRS. Also not that, NY is looking at state level investigations, charges, crimes, etc and the IRS that has been auditing Trump is Fed, so different scope again and IRS is greatly underfunded, as a result billionaires can run circles around them and purposely elongate the audit process.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-technology-archive-c99697ac657534d6015894377d04eb1f

I have no doubt he is going to pay heavily my only concern is criminal liability. I'm glad you mentioned the 2019 lawsuit because it would be a case of double jeopardy since Trump can lump the payments as part of that settlement. Ultimate will be interesting to see what comes out of this, it's a battle of whether something that has never been done in U.S history happens, will an ex president of the U.S. go to trial or possibly go to jail? How far will the powers that be prevent this from happening due to national security? Grab your popcorn, let's wait and see.

kponkedenge:


You're really relentless aren't you? No problem.... I will look for this handle when he gets indicted.

There's no way Trump will get out of this and possibly the federal crime of trying to stage a Coup should the Biden DOJ decides to pursue it which I strongly believe they will....so as to deter future coup plotters.

Let's see how it goes... And I enjoyed your conversation by the way.

Lmao....Let's see what happens, good dialogue my friend!

linearity:


I can see where the disconnect is, the NY AG is not requesting Trump’s taxes in order to audit him, it is a criminal investigation.

That's what abbey621 is missing. He thinks its about tax instead of recognising the tax is just a means to their purpose.

abbey621:


I have no doubt he is going to pay heavily my only concern is criminal liability. I'm glad you mentioned the 2019 lawsuit because it would be a case of double jeopardy since Trump can lump the payments as part of that settlement. Ultimate will be interesting to see what comes out of this, it's a battle of whether something that has never been done in U.S history happens, will an ex president of the U.S. go to trial or possibly go to jail? How far will the powers that be prevent this from happening due to national security? Grab your popcorn, let's wait and see.

As I said, likely no jail. In fact, jail seems impossible because it would be a national security dilemma especially for trump who is more likely to use it to his advantage with immense success, I think. But this is not about jail time for trump but to humiliate and destroy him and his entire lineage so he would not be heard ever again in company that matters.

It's safe to call it a witchhunt. Just that in this particular case, witch trump really does exist and must be hunted. You can't be behind the 4 years of division that culminated in January 6 and get away with it. You at least shouldn't be allowed to, so yes, grab popcorn and wait and see.

budaatum:


As I said, likely no jail. In fact, jail seems impossible because it would be a national security dilemma especially for trump who is more likely to use it to his advantage with immense success, I think. But this is not about jail time for trump but to humiliate and destroy him and his entire lineage so he would not be heard ever again in company that matters.

It's safe to call it a witchhunt. Just that in this particular case, witch trump really does exist and must be hunted. You can't be behind the 4 years of division that culminated in January 6 and get away with it. You at least shouldn't be allowed to, so yes, grab popcorn and wait and see.

The division existed before Trump and it will exist long after Trump, let's not kid ourselves. I don't think any civil consequences will stop Trump from remaining relevant, even in a loss more than 70 million people voted for him, those people are not going anywhere, in fact there's a high probability that Biden fails hence 2024 will be another major battle, it is well

abbey621:


The division existed before Trump and it will exist long after Trump, let's not kid ourselves. I don't think any civil consequences will stop Trump from remaining relevant, even in a loss more than 70 million people voted for him, those people are not going anywhere, in fact there's a high probability that Biden fails hence 2024 will be another major battle, it is well

Trump was a main instigator of the division during Obama's 2 terms. He used it to ride into the White House. But if you think trump will be relevant in 4 years time, you obviously do not quite understand the extent to which he's being hunted and what it will cost him.

His election loss already showed how much his 4 years damaged him. The double impeachment will erode some more. Those who lost 400,000 will despise trump. Business associates are detaching from him. Even his Nairaland dieharders are deactivating in droves, and now he squeaks instead of ranting on twitter and there's court after court after court after him.

The only people trump will have relevance with in 4 years time will be his diehard supporters like you who see nothing wrong with him shooting people on the streets of New York and I am absolutely certain you are in the mega minute minority of like 10million at best.

But popcorn, as you say. We shall most definitely see.

budaatum:


Trump was a main instigator of the division during Obama's 2 terms. He used it to ride into the White House. But if you think trump will be relevant in 4 years time, you obviously do not quite understand the extent to which he's being hunted and what it will cost him.

His election loss already showed how much his 4 years damaged him. The double impeachment will erode some more. Those who lost 400,000 will despise trump. Business associates are detaching from him. Even his Nairaland dieharders are deactivating in droves, and now he squeaks instead of ranting on twitter and there's court after court after court after him.

The only people trump will have relevance with in 4 years time will be his diehard supporters like you who see nothing wrong with him shooting people on the streets of New York and I am absolutely certain you are in the mega minute minority of like 10million at best.

But popcorn, as you say. We shall most definitely see.

Clearly you don't know anything about me, I voted for Biden and voted for Obama before Trump. What you also don't undertsand is that the fringe elements inside the USA are not going anywhere, do you understand what it means for over 70 million people to vote for someone, the only way to ensure Trump does not remain relevant is to throw him in jail and even that might make him a matyr and start a revolution. Do you remember Obama's first term, do you remember how much hate he got? Trump was not in the picture then so let's not make it seem like Trump brought the hatred into the country. America has been deeply divided since the 1990s, from the days of Clinton and Gingrich, only those who are serious about U.S politics and history will understand what is going on.

It is easy to take the easy way out and blame it all on Trump but there are some seriously angry people in this country from both sides and things will only get worse. To enlighten you a little bit on the issue, think of Trayvon Martin, the Baltimore riot, the man who flew a plane inside the IRS building, were these things caused by Trump? People don't like to hear the truth, Trump biggest crime is bring too blunt and politically incorrect. Any president that pushes the A merica first agenda will upset the global world order and this is an unforgivable sin. My guy 4 years is not too far away, I'll remind you when the time comes and all these politicians are either begging trump not to contest or they are actively seeking his support. U.S politics is funny that way

Yes, I am completely ignorant about you and know nothing about you, but I am certain trump will get nowhere near 70million if the election were rerun today. Or did you not hear even Mitch McConnell and all those magats he led to riot and abandoned who are now condemning him? Even the Gop is split against trumpism such that he'd likely struggle in the primaries!

Anyway, we are merely pitting opinions against each other and one thing I do know about you is you are not overdosed on kraken like some that I've seen over the years, so let us wait till we have facts. Till then, popcorn.

abbey621:


Clearly you don't know anything about me, I voted for Biden and voted for Obama before Trump. What you also don't undertsand is that the fringe elements inside the USA are not going anywhere, do you understand what it means for over 70 million people to vote for someone, the only way to ensure Trump does not remain relevant is to throw him in jail and even that might make him a matyr and start a revolution. Do you remember Obama's first term, do you remember how much hate he got? Trump was not in the picture then so let's not make it seem like Trump brought the hatred into the country. America has been deeply divided since the 1990s, from the days of Clinton and Gingrich, only those who are serious about U.S politics and history will understand what is going on.

It is easy to take the easy way out and blame it all on Trump but there are some seriously angry people in this country from both sides and things will only get worse. To enlighten you a little bit on the issue, think of Trayvon Martin, the Baltimore riot, the man who flew a plane inside the IRS building, were these things caused by Trump? People don't like to hear the truth, Trump biggest crime is bring too blunt and politically incorrect. Any president that pushes the A merica first agenda will upset the global world order and this is an unforgivable sin. My guy 4 years is not too far away, I'll remind you when the time comes and all these politicians are either begging trump not to contest or they are actively seeking his support. U.S politics is funny that way

budaatum:
Yes, I am completely ignorant about you and know nothing about you, but I am certain trump will get nowhere near 70million if the election were rerun today. Or did you not hear even Mitch McConnell and all those magats he led to riot and abandoned who are now condemning him? Even the Gop is split against trumpism such that he'd likely struggle in the primaries!

Anyway, we are merely pitting opinions against each other and one thing I do know about you is you are not overdosed on kraken like some that I've seen over the years, so let us wait till we have facts. Till then, popcorn.

Yes o broda, make we grab the popcorn, Trump goes to jail or not, it does not add to my retirement income

abbey621:


Yes o broda, make we grab the popcorn, Trump goes to jail or not, it does not add to my retirement income

My investment is greater than your's it would seem, though I am not American.

While trump is very unlikely to go to jail, just him not influencing the next US election his way is jail enough for me. I even pray the Republicans chose him as their presidential nominee so they can understand how deplorable most decent Americans see him when he woefully loses which I guarantee he will, though I have my fear he might win against Kamala.

4 years is a short time coming but a long time to change minds, I'm hoping. We will live to see

More coal in trump fire as investigators go after Con Jr!

For months, some of Donald Trump’s top advisers have assured him that he has virtually nothing to fear from the Manhattan district attorney’s tax investigation, which they view as merely “fishing” for information. But investigators with the D.A.'s office have been expanding their criminal probe into Trump’s business empire, asking questions and grilling witnesses—as recently as in the past few days—not only about Trump but particularly about his eldest son, Don Jr., and Allen Weisselberg, one of the former president’s most trusted officers, The Daily Beast has learned.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-is-being-examined-by-new-york-prosecutors-in-trump-business-probe