OkCornel:


Mosaic Laws, particularly the purity and sacrificial laws, and some other funny instructions like that.

For example, you can’t claim to be a follower of Christ and go around raping, stealing or killing because we are not under the “law”

I think what needs clarity here is what law means in this context.

Even the new covenant or testament or law or is a law itself. I’ll prefer to call it the law of Christ.

You don't need the law to tell u raping, killing, stealing etc is wrong or bad, YOU NEED THE SPIRIT OF GOD to instruct you of right and wrong. BEFORE the law in genesis, wrong was never right, so the law wasn't God's goal for believers, God's goal is the indwelling of the SPIRIT to led us not the law telling us right or wrong.

Kobojunkie:
i am sorry ...What?

In GENESIS 26 vs 1=4, Abraham was declared righteous by God because he, Abraham obeyed the command , rules and laws that God gave Him, meaning that It is through the Law that righteousness is defined. so what are you saying here?

Jesus Christ declared that only those who accept(trust) and obey His teachings/commandments will become Sons of God, again meaning that it is through submission to the obedience of the Law, Jesus Christ, that those who believe in Him are justified/made righteous.

But here you are suggesting that the Law is not meant for the righteous even though the righteous are justified,on a continual basis mind you, by their obedience of the Law, according to God?

Try to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth....you're mixing too many things together.

Goshen360:

You don't need the law to tell u raping, killing, stealing etc is wrong or bad, YOU NEED THE SPIRIT OF GOD to instruct you of right and wrong. BEFORE the law in genesis, wrong was never right, so the law wasn't God's goal for believers, God's goal is the indwelling of the SPIRIT to led us not the law telling us right or wrong.

But Jesus Christ didn't say that you need the Spirit of God to tell you right from wrong, in John 8.

John 8 vs 31-47
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31. So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers.
32. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”
34. Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
35. A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever.
36. So if the Son makes you free, you are really free.

Two absolute best examples of this are Abel and Seth, from the same book of Genesis you claim, both of them born to a condemned Adam did not have the Spirit of God to tell them right from wrong, yet they knew to follow the commandments of God and were recorded as righteous men for their obedience by God.

From the very moment God made Man, God gave Man laws. Since then, God has communicated His Will for Man through His Laws and justified men through the various Laws that He gave them. Even His promises to men He communicated through Laws. So where do you get the notion that God never wanted Laws to begin with?

Goshen360:

Try to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth....you're mixing too many things together.

Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, the very same Word that God spoke to Adam in the beginning; the Word of God spoken through Moses to Israel, is the same that came down in flesh to teach us God's New Covenant, so how do you "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" Him, Jesus Christ?

And what are the "too many things" you suggest that I am mixing together?

The only problem between God and human is sin...
God's vendict on these is " the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4

Even in the Garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve DISOBEYED, God said the result of sin will be death... Genesis 2:17

Eventually sin entered and death started...
Human beings started looking for solution...

God who must do justice and at the same time show mercy came up with the plan that if the sinner is afraid to die, let him get an animal, confess his sins upon that animal and let the animal die instead of the sinner...

*. Leviticus 16:21 "KJV:And Aaron shall LAY BOTH HIS HANDS UPON THE HEAD OF THE LIVE GOAT, AND CONFESS OVER HIM ALL THE INIQUITIES of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:"

With this arrangement, there's death as punishment for sin committed; at the same time mercy is shown to the sinner...

This is the wisdom of God to carry out judgement and mercy at the same time...

Now the fault with this arrangement is that, the animals that are being killed for the sin of human beings worth less than the human beings...

In other words animals ( which are less in value when compared with human beings) are the ones that are delivering the human beings,
no! the lesser in value ( animals) should not be the ones to deliver the ones that are bigger in value ( human beings)...

Therefore a meeting was called..." Who will go for us" who will go to deliver man from the bondage of sin?...

One of the Angels could have done that but it pleases the Father to send His only begotten Son
to solve the problem of sin once and for all...

Oh KEN4CHRIST! it is on this issue you are misquoting apostle Paul...

Believers in Christ do not kill animals again for their sins, Jesus had ended that.

Please stop encouraging people to be lawless.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!

KNOWMORE56:
The only problem between God and human is sin...
God's vendict on these is " the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4

Even in the Garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve DISOBEYED, God said the result of sin will be death... Genesis 2:17

Eventually sin entered and death started...
Human beings started looking for solution...

God who must do justice and at the same time show mercy came up with the plan that if the sinner is afraid to die, let him get an animal, confess his sins upon that animal and let the animal die instead of the sinner...

*. Leviticus 16:21 "KJV:And Aaron shall LAY BOTH HIS HANDS UPON THE HEAD OF THE LIVE GOAT, AND CONFESS OVER HIM ALL THE INIQUITIES of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:"

With this arrangement, there's death as punishment for sin committed; at the same time mercy is shown to the sinner...

This is the wisdom of God to carry out judgement and mercy at the same time...

Now the fault with this arrangement is that, the animals that are being killed for the sin of human beings worth less than the human beings...

In other words animals ( which are less in value when compared with human beings) are the ones that are delivering the human beings,
no! the lesser in value ( animals) should not be the ones to deliver the ones that are bigger in value ( human beings)...

Therefore a meeting was called..." Who will go for us" who will go to deliver man from the bondage of sin?...

One of the Angels could have done that but it pleases the Father to send His only begotten Son
to solve the problem of sin once and for all...

Oh KEN4CHRIST! it is on this issue you are misquoting apostle Paul...

Believers in Christ do not kill animals again for their sins, Jesus had ended that.

Please stop encouraging people to be lawless.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!

You completely misunderstood me. Grace is not a license to sin. I only said that the church is not under the Law of Moses and there are too many Scriptures that affirms it.

We live our lives by the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles which are enough to guide us to live a moral life.

If you need further clarification, I am willing to answer you.

Ken4Christ:
You completely misunderstood me. Grace is not a license to sin. I only said that the church is not under the Law of Moses and there are too many Scriptures that affirms it.
We live our lives by the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles which are enough to guide us to live a moral life.
If you need further clarification, I am willing to answer you.

I highly doubt the statement in bold there.

You have continually made attempts at writing off Jesus Christ's own teachings/commandment to you by suggesting the grace you have through your "special interpretation" of Paul's letters deem it so. And I have asked severally where you have God stating that He has given this power to overwrite His own commandments/teachings given you through Jesus Christ, to the man called Paul or your "special interpretation" of the entries in Paul's letters, at least.

KNOWMORE56:


[/b]"....TRUST AND OBEY!..."[b]

What is like it....?
" Trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey"

One of the stanzas read "... for the favor He shows and the blessings He bestows are for them who will trust and obey"

KEN4CHRIST no go deceive people to be lawless please...

Just live your life by the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles and you will be fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law.

You don't need to obey the Laws of Moses to be righteous. You will die before your time because the Law of Moses contains over 600 distinct instructions. And you must not break one.

For instance, under the Law of Moses, you don't do anything on Saturday. You will be stoned to death if you try it. How many of you trying to defend the Law keep the Sabbath day Holy?

Under the Law of Moses, if a lady marries and the husband discover she is not a virgin, she will be stoned to death. How many of such judgment have we witnessed in our days?

Under the Law of Moses, you are not permitted to put on dresses made from different fabrics. It is an abomination.

If you break just one, you have broken all and you will come under a curse.

This was the struggle the Jews experienced for many years. Hence Jesus came first to deliver them from the Law of Moses and ushered in grace.

Why are you all dull of understanding. Even the early church had a conference because of this and concluded that no one should be obliged to keep the Law of Moses.

Read Acts 15 and you will get the full understanding.

If the submission of most of you arguing in support of the Law of Moses is the mind of the majority of the church, then we have serious work to do. It means the church is still blind after over 2,000 years that Jesus died.

Don't be in a hurry to respond. Take some time and read the book of Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. May the Lord give you understanding.

KEN4CHRIST, Christ said that He had not come to abolish the laws and the prophets...

on the day of judgement, when you shall recall before Him that apostle Paul wrote that we are not to obey the laws...

He will reply " but I ( the final Judge) said to you....

"but I ( the beginning and the ending) said to you...

"but I ( the giver of the law) said to you....

"but I ( the totality of the law) said to you....

"but I ( the all in all) said to you....

"but I ( the supreme Authority) said to you....

"but I ( the Word ) said to you....


but I ( the final Sayer) said to you....

Each time I read Matthew 5,6,7, I always feel the authority with which He used to pronounce the word "I"

Kobojunkie:
What part of Matthew 5 vs 17-18 do you have Jesus Christ making this exact claim you make here of His person?
Where did Jesus Christ tell you that His death holds this meaning?

Again, Jesus Christ said that every matter must be established by the accounts of two or three witnesses. In this case, the matter is the Old Covenant and whether it has been abolished or not.

In the book of Genesis where God is said to have made the covenant with Abraham, God is said to have made it clear that this covenant was indeed an eternal covenant with his, Abraham's, descendants.
In Numbers, while speaking to Aaron(Moses's brother) and the other Levites, God declares that indeed this is an Everlasting covenant that He makes with them.
Witnesses to God's everlasting Covenant

In Deuteronomy, Moses is made by God, the notary on the Covenant and he, Moses, indeed declares that this Covenant is eternal .i.e. forever between God and the Children of Israel.

King David, in one of his many songs, declares that indeed this Covenant is meant to last forever between God and the descendants of Israel

And then in Matthew, God again, through Jesus Christ, tells you that the Old Covenant is an Everlasting Covenant between Himself and the People of Israel

According to the Law of two or three witnesses which is both path of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, it is by the word of 2 or 3 witnesses that a fact/truth should be established. And so far, the only witness you continue to provide as far as your claim that the Old Covenant has been dismantled, abolished, by God too, is Paul. Why is that?

Prophet Jeremiah foretold of this New Covenant even though Isreal is yet to embrace it. It will be fulfilled after the great tribulation period.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Apostle Paul analyzed this in the book of Hebrews quoting Jeremiah.

Hebrews 8:7-13
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Even our Lord Jesus when he broke bread, he said;

Matthew 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

In just the way a Nigeria lawyers must use the 1999 constitution in the court of law, Christians have a New Constitution.

And lawyer that quote an older constitution in the court of law will certainly be mocked at.

You can't be using an old law in a new dispensation..

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW.

Ken4Christ:


You completely misunderstood me. Grace is not a license to sin. I only said that the church is not under the Law of Moses and there are too many Scriptures that affirms it.

We live our lives by the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles which are enough to guide us to live a moral life.

If you need further clarification, I am willing to answer you.

[/b]"If you need further clarification, I am willing to answer you."[b]

Why not? I really want to KNOWMORE about this your "we are delivered from laws"

Ken4Christ:
Prophet Jeremiah foretold of this New Covenant even though Isreal is yet to embrace it. It will be fulfilled after the great tribulation period.

A New Covenant that will be fulfilled after the Great Tribulation? Where did Jeremiah say it will be fulfilled after the great tribulation?

Ken4Christ:
Apostle Paul analyzed this in the book of Hebrews quoting Jeremiah.

So, according to you, Paul quoted Jeremiah, and said what now?

Ken4Christ:
Even our Lord Jesus when he broke bread, he said;
Matthew 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Jesus Christ is the New Covenant, but where do you get that the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ will be fulfilled after the great tribulation period?

Ken4Christ:
In just the way a Nigeria lawyers must use the 1999 constitution in the court of law, Christians have a New Constitution. And lawyer that quote an older constitution in the court of law will certainly be mocked at.
You can't be using an old law in a new dispensation..
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW.

Wrong! Again, the Old Covenant was the Law that God made for the people who would live in the Kingdom of Israel, whereas the New Covenant is a Covenant that God made for the people who would live in the Kingdom of God(Heaven and Hell) - this is a tale of Two different Kingdoms(Each with its own Covenant/System of Law, and people) and 1 God.

1. Old Covenant - an eternal agreement between God and the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel) for the Land/Kingdom of Israel
2. New Covenant - an eternal agreement between God and individual man for the Kingdom of God(Heaven and Hell).

So, your analogy using the Nigerian example there fails, why? Because you are trying to explain a tale of 2 Kingdoms, and 2 different Laws, with a tale about 1 Kingdom(Nigeria) and 2 different Laws(older constitution, and 1999 constitution). It makes no sense to abolish the Laws in Kingdom A when you erect new Laws in Kingdom B.

Ken4Christ:


Just live your life by the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles and you will be fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law.

You don't need to obey the Laws of Moses to be righteous. You will die before your time because the Law of Moses contains over 600 distinct instructions. And you must not break one.

For instance, under the Law of Moses, you don't do anything on Saturday. You will be stoned to death if you try it. How many of you trying to defend the Law keep the Sabbath day Holy?

Under the Law of Moses, if a lady marries and the husband discover she is not a virgin, she will be stoned to death. How many of such judgment have we witnessed in our days?

Under the Law of Moses, you are not permitted to put on dresses made from different fabrics. It is an abomination.

If you break just one, you have broken all and you will come under a curse.

This was the struggle the Jews experienced for many years. Hence Jesus came first to deliver them from the Law of Moses and ushered in grace.

Why are you all dull of understanding. Even the early church had a conference because of this and concluded that no one should be obliged to keep the Law of Moses.

Read Acts 15 and you will get the full understanding.

If the submission of most of you arguing in support of the Law of Moses is the mind of the majority of the church, then we have serious work to do. It means the church is still blind after over 2,000 years that Jesus died.

Don't be in a hurry to respond. Take some time and read the book of Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. May the Lord give you understanding.

"[/b]For instance, under the Law of Moses, you don't do anything on Saturday. You will be stoned to death if you try it. How many of you trying to defend the Law keep the Sabbath day Holy? "[b]

This is why Dtruthspeaker called it "a perverted version of the law"

Because when you said "you don't do anything on Saturday", Jesus challenged the people that they DO rescued their animals that fell into pit on Saturday!

Did anyone stone them?
JESUS now gives us the true meaning "keep the Sabbath day holy" by saying we are permitted to DO good on Sabbath day.

E.g doctors and nurses are not going to avoid attending to their patients because of Sabbath day;

The police and other security agents are not going to stop their duty because of Sabbath day;

This issue of security, I believe that even in the land of Israel their watch men still DO their work on the Sabbath day...

Ken4Christ:


Just live your life by the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles and you will be fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law.

You don't need to obey the Laws of Moses to be righteous. You will die before your time because the Law of Moses contains over 600 distinct instructions. And you must not break one.

For instance, under the Law of Moses, you don't do anything on Saturday. You will be stoned to death if you try it. How many of you trying to defend the Law keep the Sabbath day Holy?

Under the Law of Moses, if a lady marries and the husband discover she is not a virgin, she will be stoned to death. How many of such judgment have we witnessed in our days?

Under the Law of Moses, you are not permitted to put on dresses made from different fabrics. It is an abomination.

If you break just one, you have broken all and you will come under a curse.

This was the struggle the Jews experienced for many years. Hence Jesus came first to deliver them from the Law of Moses and ushered in grace.

Why are you all dull of understanding. Even the early church had a conference because of this and concluded that no one should be obliged to keep the Law of Moses.

Read Acts 15 and you will get the full understanding.

If the submission of most of you arguing in support of the Law of Moses is the mind of the majority of the church, then we have serious work to do. It means the church is still blind after over 2,000 years that Jesus died.

Don't be in a hurry to respond. Take some time and read the book of Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. May the Lord give you understanding.

[/b]"Under the Law of Moses, if a lady marries and the husband discover she is not a virgin, she will be stoned to death. How many of such judgment have we witnessed in our days?"[b]

The reason for not practicing the stoning aspect of this law is because God had said
ALL (not some) HAVE SINNED. There is no one who is qualified to carry out this judgement.

I think I read where the lawyer told you about this, quoting where Jesus said "...he that is without sin among you should cast the 1st stone...

Which means He did not disagree with the laws and judgement!

God willing to show mercy to all said let Jesus die for all...

But those who believe He died for them should stop committing sin by the help of the grace He gives them:

*. John 1:12 "KJV:But as many as received him, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

The POWER here is the grace of God; to become sons and daughters of God means to live holily and righteously...

*. 1 John 3:9 "
KJV:In this THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE MANIFEST and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother."

*. 1 Thessalonians 2:10 "KJV:Ye are witnesses, and God also, HOW HOLILY AND JUSTLY AND UNBLAMEABLY WE BEHAVED OURSELVES among you that believe:"

if there is no law, nothing to be used to measure righteousness!

It is the killing of animals for the sake of sin that is abolished, not " thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc

Goshen360:


You don't need the law to tell u raping, killing, stealing etc is wrong or bad, YOU NEED THE SPIRIT OF GOD to instruct you of right and wrong. BEFORE the law in genesis, wrong was never right, so the law wasn't God's goal for believers, God's goal is the indwelling of the SPIRIT to led us not the law telling us right or wrong.

Spot on, the Spirit of God at work in us is what empowers us to obey the laws of Christ.

We cannot call Him Lord and yet not do the things He says we should.

Kobojunkie:
A New Covenant that will be fulfilled after the Great Tribulation? Where did Jeremiah say it will be fulfilled after the great tribulation?
So, according to you, Paul quoted Jeremiah, and said what now?
Jesus Christ is the New Covenant, but where do you get that the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ will be fulfilled after the great tribulation period?
Wrong! Again, the Old Covenant was the Law that God made for the people who would live in the Kingdom of Israel, whereas the New Covenant is a Covenant that God made for the people who would live in the Kingdom of God(Heaven and Hell) - this is a tale of Two different Kingdoms(Each with its own Covenant/System of Law, and people) and 1 God.

1. Old Covenant - an eternal agreement between God and the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel) for the Land/Kingdom of Israel
2. New Covenant - an eternal agreement between God and individual man for the Kingdom of God(Heaven and Hell).

So, your analogy using the Nigerian example there fails, why? Because you are trying to explain a tale of 2 Kingdoms, and 2 different Laws, with a tale about 1 Kingdom(Nigeria) and 2 different Laws(older constitution, and 1999 constitution). It makes no sense to abolish the Laws in Kingdom A when you erect new Laws in Kingdom B.

The covenant that is eternal is Abrahamic Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant from which the Law of Moses came.

Evidence No 1
In the book of Galatians, Apostle Paul said that the Law of Moses was a school master to bring us to Christ. But after Faith has come, we are no longer under a school master.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Hence it is written thrice in the New Testament that the just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them - Galatians 3:12.

Evidence No

Hebrews 2 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Jesus is now our High Priest who doesn't operate by the Law of Moses. He doesn't have to enter into the physical Temple to offer the blood of bulls and goats.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this cause he is the MEDIATOR OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a TESTAMENT IS OF FORCE AFTER MEN ARE DEAD: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So, the New Testament is already in force.

You can't have a New Testament and you want to go back to the old one. The old one was faulty and weak.

Hebrews 8:7-8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For FINDING FAULT with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a DISANNULLING OF THE COMMANDMENT going before FOR THE WEAKNESS and UNPROFITABLENESS THEREOF.

19 For the LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 8:3 For what the LAW COULD NOT DO, in that IT WAS WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The New Law we have is also known as the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:2 For the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Bible calls the Old testament law, the Law of sin and death.

Ken4Christ:
The covenant that is eternal is Abrahamic Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant from which the Law of Moses came.
Evidence No 1
In the book of Galatians, Apostle Paul said that the Law of Moses was a school master to bring us to Christ. But after Faith has come, we are no longer under a school master.
Galatians 3:24-25
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them - Galatians 3:12.

A Covenant is a Law, a Contract...an agreement between two parties expressing a relationship as pertains a subject or object. The Covenant between God and Israel had to do with the Land of Canaan.

What God made was a promise to Abraham, not a Covenant, as regards the habitation of the land of Canaan. In His promise, to Abraham, God made it known that He would give the land to Abraham's descendants. God reminded the Israelites of this fact when through Moses, He ratified the Covenant He made with Israel. As you can read from the passage below...

Deuteronomy 30 vs 15-20 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15. “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.
16. I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.
17. But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,
18. you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

19. “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death. The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.
20. You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

.. the Covenant God made with Israel was in response to the promise God made with Abraham. This is written of several times and confirmed by various prophets in that Bible you carry around with you.

Ken4Christ:
Evidence No
Hebrews 2 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Jesus is now our High Priest who doesn't operate by the Law of Moses. He doesn't have to enter into the physical Temple to offer the blood of bulls and goats.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this cause he is the MEDIATOR OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a TESTAMENT IS OF FORCE AFTER MEN ARE DEAD: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
So, the New Testament is already in force.

Your "Special interpretation" of Paul's letters leads you into yet another bind. Paul's letter to the Hebrew Christians were clearly directed at Hebrew Christians, of whom you are not. So this claim that Jesus Christ is your high priest is a lie. You, a gentile were never a part of the Old Covenant, since you do not have the blood of Jacob pulsing in your veings, so you never needed a High priest then and even now. To the gentiles, Jesus Christ is the Law, the New Covenant between God and man and He remains just that to us.
No where in His teachings did Jesus Christ suggest that He has become a "high priest", even to the gentiles, so I don't see why you reason as you do as far as Paul's letter to the Christians of Hebrews descent.

Ken4Christ:
You can't have a New Testament and you want to go back to the old one. The old one was faulty and weak.
Hebrews 8:7-8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For FINDING FAULT with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

As far as you, as a gentile is concerned, there is no such thing as an Old Covenant for you. Instead, you were one of the unbelievers condemned to die.
As I have explained severally to you before now, you, as a gentile never had an Old Covenant to go back to. The old Covenant belongs only to the Israelites, of which race you are not, and so was never of concern to you by birth.

Ken4Christ:
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a DISANNULLING OF THE COMMANDMENT going before FOR THE WEAKNESS and UNPROFITABLENESS THEREOF.
19 For the LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Romans 8:3 For what the LAW COULD NOT DO, in that IT WAS WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The New Law we have is also known as the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:2 For the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The Bible calls the Old testament law, the Law of sin and death.

I am afraid you have it wrong again. The Law of Sin and Death is the Law God gave to Adam on the garden of Eden, the Law that decreed Man would die if Man sinned. That law condemned Adam and all of mankind to death for their sins since then.

Genesis 2 vs 15-17 (ERV) -- The Law of Sin and Death
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15. Then the Lord God took [d]the man and put him in the garden of Eden to [e]tend and keep it.
16. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17. but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”

God warned Adam that on the day Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, Adam would surely die, and it was so...

Genesis 3 vs 17-19 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17. Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
18. Both thorns and thistles it shall [f]bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust, you shall return.”

....Adam died that very day(a thousand years is like a day to God since the story was written from God's perspective.

In Ezekiel 18, God reiterated the details of that Law would hold. Jesus Christ did not repeal that Law either as explained in John 3 vs 16-21, where it is explained that that judgment still stands.

You were condemned to die by The Law of sin and death from Adam so once you were saved from that by Jesus Christ, He gave you no way of going back to being condemned again.

What is quite obvious at this point is that instead of the Truth of God, detailed in the Bible, you have yourself all wrapped up in a ball of doctrinal knots there. It is up to you to decide whether you will choose now to accept(trust) and obey the teachings/commandments of Jesus Christ(found written about in the 4 Gospels) so He Himself can teach you His Truth, clearing out those lies you seem full of, or you continue rolling around in the same entanglement you have yourself in.

KNOWMORE56:

The laws of Moses have ritual/ceremonial laws, moral laws and the ten commandments.
The ten commandments is dividend into 2: duty to God ( i.e 1 - 4) and duty to humanity ( i.e 5 - 10) Exodus 20: 1- 17.

Moral laws e.g if you find your neighbors lost goods return them (restitution), don't ill-treat your house maids/ employees, etc: Exodus 21 and 22;

Now, the ritual laws which involve killing of animals to appease God's wrath against sin have been completely done away with.

But God does not cancel things just like that, He gave Jesus as the lamb for this ritual...
this sacrifice (the lamb) is still before Him up till now that's why He relieves us of animals sacrifices - revelation 5:6....

The Bible says that the blood of these animals could not bring lasting solution to the problem of sin... Hebrews 9: 10-15; 10: 1-10;
All the places you have been quoting up and down are pointing at the sacrifices for sin....

What I understand as the grace of God IS THE POWER OF GOD GIVEN TO HUMANITY TO ENABLE THOSE WHO BELIEVE DO/ OBEY THE WORD OF GOD OR THE LAW OF GOD, WHICH ON THEIR (humanity) OWN THEY WILL FAIL...

Another important point is that we are saved to keep the laws ( not rituals laws)
but they were to keep the laws to be safe or saved....

When they failed, they used animals sacrifice to appease God's wrath, but when we fail, we have an advocate with the Father....1 John 2:1

Oh! This is Beauti-full!

It is Always a Pleasure to See and to Read a Well Considered, Balanced and Right-full Judgement!

KNOWMORE56:


"[/b]For instance, under the Law of Moses, you don't do anything on Saturday. You will be stoned to death if you try it. How many of you trying to defend the Law keep the Sabbath day Holy? "[b]

This is why Dtruthspeaker called it "a perverted version of the law"

cc: ken4Christ
Exactly what is happening in Nigeria as exhibited in this thread https://www.nairaland.com/6473354/abuja-magistrate-orders-lawyer-handcuffed/3#100160241.

Also what Supreme Court Justice is reported to have said in this thread https://www.nairaland.com/6472227/rhodes-vivour-some-supreme-court-decisions#100117945

"He said the doctrine, in effect, means “stand by your decisions and the decisions of your predecessors, however wrong they are and whatever injustices they inflict”.

Meanwhile The Law is The Court Must Do No Wrong, yet a Judge of The Law Proclaims Otherwise, so how shall The Righteous Law not be put away and the law in force not be a perverted and subverted one?

truespeak:


Oh! This is Beauti-full!

It is Always a Pleasure to See and to Read a Well Considered, Balanced and Right-full Judgement!

Thanks dear...

Kobojunkie:
A Covenant is a Law, a Contract...an agreement between two parties expressing a relationship as pertains a subject or object. The Covenant between God and Israel had to do with the Land of Canaan.

What God made was a promise to Abraham, not a Covenant, as regards the habitation of the land of Canaan. In His promise, to Abraham, God made it known that He would give the land to Abraham's descendants. God reminded the Israelites of this fact when through Moses, He ratified the Covenant He made with Israel. As you can read from the passage below...
.. the Covenant God made with Israel was in response to the promise God made with Abraham. This is written of several times and confirmed by various prophets in that Bible you carry around with you.
Your "Special interpretation" of Paul's letters leads you into yet another bind. Paul's letter to the Hebrew Christians were clearly directed at Hebrew Christians, of whom you are not. So this claim that Jesus Christ is your high priest is a lie. You, a gentile were never a part of the Old Covenant, since you do not have the blood of Jacob pulsing in your veings, so you never needed a High priest then and even now. To the gentiles, Jesus Christ is the Law, the New Covenant between God and man and He remains just that to us.
No where in His teachings did Jesus Christ suggest that He has become a "high priest", even to the gentiles, so I don't see why you reason as you do as far as Paul's letter to the Christians of Hebrews descent.
As far as you, as a gentile is concerned, there is no such thing as an Old Covenant for you. Instead, you were one of the unbelievers condemned to die.
As I have explained severally to you before now, you, as a gentile never had an Old Covenant to go back to. The old Covenant belongs only to the Israelites, of which race you are not, and so was never of concern to you by birth.
I am afraid you have it wrong again. The Law of Sin and Death is the Law God gave to Adam on the garden of Eden, the Law that decreed Man would die if Man sinned. That law condemned Adam and all of mankind to death for their sins since then.
God warned Adam that on the day Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, Adam would surely die, and it was so...
....Adam died that very day(a thousand years is like a day to God since the story was written from God's perspective.

In Ezekiel 18, God reiterated the details of that Law would hold. Jesus Christ did not repeal that Law either as explained in John 3 vs 16-21, where it is explained that that judgment still stands.

You were condemned to die by The Law of sin and death from Adam so once you were saved from that by Jesus Christ, He gave you no way of going back to being condemned again.

What is quite obvious at this point is that instead of the Truth of God, detailed in the Bible, you have yourself all wrapped up in a ball of doctrinal knots there. It is up to you to decide whether you will choose now to accept(trust) and obey the teachings/commandments of Jesus Christ(found written about in the 4 Gospels) so He Himself can teach you His Truth, clearing out those lies you seem full of, or you continue rolling around in the same entanglement you have yourself in.

You want to win your argument at all cost in spite of overwhelming evidences against it.

Yes, it is true that the Gentiles don't have an old covenant but we were part of the Abrahamamic covenant from the start.

Apostle Paul established that the Law of Moses has nothing to do with the fulfillment of the covenant God made with Abraham. The real heirs of salvation are not those who keep the Law of Moses but those who walk in the steps of the faith of Abraham.

Romans 4:13-14
13 For the promise, that HE SHOULD BE THE HEIR of the world, WAS NOT TO ABRAHAM, OR TO HIS SEED, THROUGH THE LAW, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For IF THEY WHICH ARE OF THE LAW BE HEIRS, FAITH IS MADE VOID, and the promise made of none effect:

Abraham was declared righteous before he was circumcised. It was not because he obeyed any code of law. He was declared righteous by faith.

Romans 4:3-6.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Before God, both the Jews and the Gentiles are now one in Christ. There is no longer discrimination.

Ephesians 2:14-19
14 For he is our peace, WHO HATH MADE BOTH(JEWS & GENTILES) ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of TWAIN ONE NEW MAN , so making peace;

16 And that he might RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, BUT FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of GOD.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

29 And if YE BE CHRIST'S, THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM'S SEED, and HEIRS according to the PROMISE.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 BUT HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I hope you have learned more. Stop rebelling against the truth of God's word.

Ken4Christ:
You want to win your argument at all cost in spite of overwhelming evidences against it.

Winning? I am afraid you are this to win... I am simply in this to correct the errors in your claims, lies that are borne of doctrines and traditions of men which Jesus Christ warned heaps curses on the heads of those who adopt them.

Ken4Christ:
Yes, it is true that the Gentiles don't have an old covenant but we were part of the Abrahamamic covenant from the start. Apostle Paul established that the Law of Moses has nothing to do with the fulfillment of the covenant God made with Abraham. The real heirs of salvation are not those who keep the Law of Moses but those who walk in the steps of the faith of Abraham.

So what is the Abrahamic Covenant you speak of? Where is it defined and declared?

Ken4Christ:
Abraham was declared righteous before he was circumcised. It was not because he obeyed any code of law. He was declared righteous by faith.

So are you saying that God lied to Isaac in the passage below?

Genesis 26 vs 1-5 (ERV)
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1. Now there was a famine. This was like the famine that happened during Abraham’s life. So Isaac went to the town of Gerar, to King Abimelech of the Philistines.
2. The Lord spoke to Isaac and said, “Don’t go down to Egypt. Live in the land that I commanded you to live in.
3. Stay in this land, and I will be with you. I will bless you. I will give you and your family all these lands. I will do what I promised to Abraham your father.
4. I will make your family as many as the stars of heaven, and I will give all these lands to your family. Through your descendants[a] every nation on earth will be blessed.
5. I will do this because your father Abraham obeyed my words and did what I said. He obeyed my commands, my laws, and my rules.”

Ken4Christ:
Before God, both the Jews and the Gentiles are now one in Christ. There is no longer discrimination.

In the Kingdom of God, there is no discrimination. But in Paul's letters, Paul focused mainly on the Jewish Christian audience. So, you would need to be in denial to confuse Paul's letters for the Kingdom of God.

Ken4Christ:
I hope you have learned more. Stop rebelling against the truth of God's word.

Don't worry about me...yet!

enilove, were you not the very same who argued here on this thread?

Please I will like to communicate with you @ enilove I pmed you

OkCornel:

My dear, the new covenant which is a better one than the old covenant still have laws one must obey as a follower of Christ. Non-negotiable.
The standards of the new covenant are higher than the old covenant (Mosaic Laws). A good example of this where the things Jesus preached in Matthew 5.

There is a clear difference between the Old Covenant Laws and the New Covenant Laws!

Of course those under the New Covenant Laws have nothing to do with the Old because they've been sanctified with the blood of Jesus Christ. But it becomes complicated when there are too many teachers all claiming Christians!

We are not under the LAW but we are not LAWLESS

achorladey:
We are not under the LAW but we are not LAWLESS

Jesus Christ is the New Law & agreement/contract that God promised to the House of Jacob - Jeremiah 31 vs 31 - 34 & Matthew 26 vs 28 - 30. There is no relationship between God and man that is defined outside of one of His Laws.

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ is the New Law & agreement/contract that God promised to the House of Jacob - Jeremiah 31 vs 31 - 34 & Matthew 26 vs 28 - 30. There is no relationship between God and man that is defined outside of one of His Laws.

We are not under the LAW but we are not LAWLESS

enilove:
Jesus made it cleared to us that we christians which are under the grace are expected to obey the laws given by God to Moses :

Matthew 5:17 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For example , are we not to obey this laws ?

Leviticus 19:26-28 KJV
Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. [27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

The law has been abolished.

When Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law, he meant he didn't come to ask people to stop obeying the law. He said he will do so by following due process. This is the meaning of the word fulfill.

And he has fulfilled the law. He has brought a justified end to it. The law has been nailed to the cross. And grace has taken its place.

achorladey:
We are not under the LAW but we are not LAWLESS

That is just meaningless soundbite!

I used to think it was Satan that was enticing people to break Gods laws...I never knew it was Christians....

We learn everyday..

Kobojunkie:
That is just meaningless soundbite!

To you

Jesus Christ is the New Law & agreement/contract that God promised to the House of Jacob

Read and let it sink.

We are not under the LAW but we are not LAWLESS