The Oyo conquest and subjugation of Dahomey is one example of Yoruba expansionism. I think there are a few others.

^^that's true.

however, it only came about because dahomey was trying to wrest control of the slave routes and sea coast, from oyo.


http://books.google.com/books?id=UjRYKePKrB8C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=oyo+conquest+of+dahomey&source=bl&ots=M3Xyo8wE3B&sig=h7wDZAyVaw3l5wLj-XHbYqaXDqE&hl=en&ei=tzW2Tf7MOcOV0QGs7d3VDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=oyo%20conquest%20of%20dahomey&f=false


and even then oyo didnt occupy dahomey, but merely required they pay tributes.

What of Kwara? Yorubaland basically borders Niger State to the North. Has Kwara State always been a Yorubaland? I had the impression that it was sort of a frontier territory in the 1700s.

yorubaland used to include part of niger state, which is north of kwara.

the yorubas were pushed progressively southward to their current locations.

Which parts of Niger State?

Are you sure about that? Remember, Ilorin started out as a kingdom with a Yoruba leader. Civil war happened, Yoruba dude's faction lost and got defeated by Fulani guy's faction. How do you know that the territory of the Ilorin Emirate shrunk?

I don't think that happened.

There are some Yoruba folks in Nupe (I learned that this weekend), supposedly small towns and such. But they were captured slaves who were settled into towns. They don't represent a border shift.

I think the confusion for you is that you assume Yoruba in the terminology of the 1800s= Yoruba in the terminology of today.

When they said Yoruba then, they meant Oyo Empire only. So yes, Oyo lost territory to the Ilorin Emirate. But in both states, the majority ethnic group was Yoruba.

Did Nupe Emirate ever defeat Ilorin Emirate in warfare? Jarus would probably know better, or another Kwara person.

ekt_bear:

Which parts of Niger State?

Are you sure about that? Remember, Ilorin started out as a kingdom with a Yoruba leader. Civil war happened, Yoruba dude's faction lost and got defeated by Fulani guy's faction. How do you know that the territory of the Ilorin Emirate shrunk?

I don't think that happened.

There are some Yoruba folks in Nupe (I learned that this weekend), supposedly small towns and such. But they were captured slaves who were settled into towns. They don't represent a border shift.

the original capital of the oyo empire was located in niger state.

there was a series of wars between the nupe and oyos, which eventually culminated in oyo's defeat and the sacking of the capital.

oyo regrouped further south, built a new capital and regained most of their old territory. They developed a calvary [with the help of the hausa or fulani perhaps? Not sure], defeated the nupes, and proceeded to estblish a very lucrative part in the slave trade.

this went on until the fulani conquered northern nigeria and headed south as well.

internal wranglings [ilorin], and the revolt of egba and dahomey, among other things, seriously weakened oyo pending the arrival of the british.

ekt_bear:

I think the confusion for you is that you assume Yoruba in the terminology of the 1800s= Yoruba in the terminology of today.

When they said Yoruba then, they meant Oyo Empire only. So yes, Oyo lost territory to the Ilorin Emirate. But in both states, the majority ethnic group was Yoruba.

Did Nupe Emirate ever defeat Ilorin Emirate in warfare? Jarus would probably know better, or another Kwara person.

you're confusing yourself.

ilorin emirate did not exist until the fulani conquest of ilorin.

prior to that, ilorin was under oyo.

there was a series of revolts, infighting and civil disturbances which culminated in ilorin breaking away from oyo and falling under the control of the fulani.

tpiah!:



the original capital of the oyo empire was located in niger state.

there was a series of wars between the nupe and oyos, which eventually culminated in oyo's defeat and the sacking of the capital.

oyo regrouped further south, built a new capital and regained most of their old territory. They developed a calvary [with the help of the husa or fulani perhaps? Not sure], defeated the nupes, and proceeded to estblish a very lucrative part in the slave trade.

this went on until the fulani conquered northern nigeria and headed south as well.

internal wranglings [ilorin], and the revolt of egba and dahomey, among other things, seriously weakened oyo pending the arrival of the british.

Right. But didn't Oyo get defeated by the Nupes in like the 1400s? It was a long, long time ago. We haven't lost any territory to the Nupes since 1800, unless I am very much mistaken.

When was this Oyo/Nupe conflict?

tpiah!:


you're confusing yourself.

ilorin emirate did not exist until the fulani conquest of ilorin.

prior to that, ilorin was under oyo.

there was a series of revolts, infighting and civil disturbances which culminated in ilorin breaking away from oyo and falling under the control of the fulani.

Yes, I know that. Anyway, see my text above. . . I thought you meant we lost territory to the Nupes more recently.

BTW, where was this original capital in Niger State? Are there ruins somewhere? Just curious. . . i'd like to visit it someday if so. And the capital that was sacked by Ilorin too. . . where is that?

oyo ile, former capital of oyo.


yoruba territory used to reach all the way to the river niger, which for the record, was called oya, i think.

ekt_bear:

Right. But didn't Oyo get defeated by the Nupes in like the 1400s? It was a long, long time ago. We haven't lost any territory to the Nupes since 1800, unless I am very much mistaken.

oyo was defeated and sacked by the nupes in the 15th century or so.

oyo later regrouped, built a strong cavalry, and defeated the nupe.

BTW, where was this original capital in Niger State? Are there ruins somewhere? Just curious. . . i'd like to visit it someday if so. And the capital that was sacked by Ilorin too. . . where is that?

i've posted a photo of the location of oyo ile, the former capital.

i think much of that area would probably be covered by kainji lake today, so i doubt there'd be any ruins to visit.

i'm not sure however- would need to check. In any case, the general area would be a protected one i should think.

there was a mass displacement of people due to the construction of the dam, so i dont know if there'd be much to discover.


ilorin was a major slave market and also a key military outpost of the oyo empire. Ilorin itself was sacked or conquered- not sure what your last sentence means.

tpiah!: Thanks a lot. The Wikipedia article is very good.

I don't think we lost too much territory to the Nupes, though.

There are two towns that represent part of the border between Yorubaland and Nupeland. Share is the Yoruba town, Tsaaragi is the Nupe one. Anyway, compare the map you posted to the following one from google:


As you can see, Share isn't very far from the Niger River. And the progression of time will Yorubaize all the non-Yoruba in Kwara. So in 100 years or so, whoever there isn't Yoruba will be Yoruba-speaking.

^^you're welcome.


i'll compare the two maps.

however, there's been extensive population shifts and migrations within yorubaland in recent centuries, so a current google map might not necessarily be the final say on this issue.

new towns were created after old ones were sacked, entire towns and villages relocated to other places in the southwest, etc etc.

Hausa is spreading faster than anything around it. I don't know if the Nupe are picking it though, so the idea of Kwara becoming fully culturally Yoruba, with the Fulani present, is questionable. The Fulani and Hausa have also had more experience at assimilating people.

kwara is already fully culturally yoruba.

the fulanis there speak better yoruba than me.

Speaking Yoruba doesn't mean they are full culturally Yoruba. Speak to a Kwara person. Plus not all of Kwara speaks Yoruba.

tpiah!:

kwara is already fully culturally yoruba.

the fulanis there speak better yoruba than me.

In Ilorin town, you mean the folk there? Yes, that makes sense. But what of these 5 LGAs in purple, north of Ilorin:
http://www.ncocusa.com/images/map.kwara1.gif

The Nupe and Borgu LGAs, basically. Have you ever been to a major market town there and listened to the languages spoken? Unfortunately I've never been to Ilorin, much less any of these LGAs. . . so I would not know what the market tongue is.

Unfortunately I've never been to Ilorin,

true.


you should visit sometime.

But what of these 5 LGAs in purple, north of Ilorin

nothing to do with the discussion. In any case, the map is too small and the labels indistinct- can you list the LGAs there so we'll see if they're yoruba or not.

most of them probably speak it regardless.

^-- Definitely on my todo list for next time I go (I'm guessing this summer).

Here are the LGAs from Kwara's site: http://www.kwarastate.gov.ng/asa.html

You see at the top of the page the horizontal navigation bar, with the 5th one from the left called "LGAs"? Hover your mouse over it to get the list. Lists some info for each.

Fulani have never [/b]assimilated non fulani people into fula culture or hausa, they only taken on their hosts culture, language, dress  etc but maintain fulani origin only due to islam- which means nothing compared to yoruba identity.

if anything fulani are going extinct faster than any tribe.

even the non yorubas in kwara and southern niger state speak yoruba and carry yoruba names.

ekt_bear:

tpiah!: Thanks a lot. The Wikipedia article is very good.

I don't think we lost too much territory to the Nupes, though.

There are two towns that represent part of the border between Yorubaland and Nupeland. Share is the Yoruba town, Tsaaragi is the Nupe one. Anyway, compare the map you posted to the following one from google:

[b]As you can see, Share isn't very far from the Niger River. And the progression of time will Yorubaize all the non-Yoruba in Kwara. So in 100 years or so, whoever there isn't Yoruba will be Yoruba-speaking.

even in niger state they speak yoruba

check this video muslim man with 86 wives is nupe-fulani but hes giving his interview only speakin in yoruba.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB8OLRK_4vs    <---- video

ezeagu:

Speaking Yoruba doesn't mean they are full culturally Yoruba. Speak to a Kwara person. Plus not all of Kwara speaks Yoruba.

all kwara speak yoruba what are you talking about? even non yoruba speak yoruba because that what the majority of the people speak.

fulani speak yoruba in kwara, nupe speak yoruba in kwara, bariba speak yoruba in kwara. yoruba is the common language.

a nupe man cant speak fula, bariba cannot speak nupe, fula cannot speak braiba - but they all can speak yoruba.

@sbeezy8: Yeah I saw that. But I wasn't sure what to make of it. . . whether it meant that many in parts of Niger State speak the language. I guess for trade reasons, they might. . . Ilorin is the only major city of note in that whole area, so I guess back in the day people would travel there to trade, and thus need to interact with the locals.

Mostly agree with your comment about Fulani. I disagree about going extinct culturally though. . . there are still some who maintain their traditional lifestyle and life in these Fulani villages. Not to talk of the herders too.

Anyways, this is part of the reason I don't want to see Kwara State subdivided.

can someone talk to this spambot plz.

i dont really want to send any email to anybody.

^-- Just post in the 'complaints' thread

ekt_bear:

^-- Just post in the 'complaints' thread

i guess.



anyway, i was saying i dont think it matters if the state is subdivided.

Anyways, this is part of the reason I don't want to see Kwara State subdivided

that's just me sha. I'm not from kwara anyway, so my opinion doesnt count.

tpia@:

anyway, i was saying i dont think it matters if the state is subdivided.

What do you mean by this? In what doesn't it matter. . . what will not change?

^^i assume you meant you dont want kwara subdivided because you felt the yoruba or fulani there would lose their culture if it was.

i dont think so.

of course i might be reading you wrong?

Heh. I'm saying, subdividing it will awaken Borgu, Nupe ethnolinguistic movements. Currently, they are being slowly absorbed over time into the dominant culture of the state. For selfish reasons, I'd like to see this continue 

Like, it is good for Yorubaland for Kwara to remain one (in my opinion), bad if it is partitioned.

sbeezy8:

Fulani have [b]never [/b]assimilated non fulani people into fula culture or hausa, they only taken on their hosts culture, language, dress  etc but maintain fulani origin only due to islam- which means nothing compared to yoruba identity.

if anything fulani are going extinct faster than any tribe.

even the non yorubas in kwara and southern niger state speak yoruba and carry yoruba names.

There's an Emir of Illorin and the Fulani have never assimilated anybody? The Fulani ancestry from the male is what the Fulani's use to identify themselves, like the Arab's in Northern Sudan. The Fulani may have taken up other people cultures, but it does not mean they do not identify as Fulani. We all saw how Mr. Bakare was desperately trying to disassociate himself from Kwara.

sbeezy8:

all kwara speak yoruba what are you talking about? even non yoruba speak yoruba because that what the majority of the people speak.

fulani speak yoruba in kwara, nupe speak yoruba in kwara, bariba speak yoruba in kwara. yoruba is the common language.

a nupe man cant speak fula, bariba cannot speak nupe, fula cannot speak braiba - but they all can speak yoruba.

Not all Kwara people speak Yoruba natively. There examples of a language being used to trade all over Africa, but it does not always indicate identity. Unless Nupe Niger will also become Yoruba. Even Kwara people do not claim any of these people as Yoruba.