ekt_bear:

Heh. I'm saying, subdividing it will awaken Borgu, Nupe ethnolinguistic movements. Currently, they are being slowly absorbed over time into the dominant culture of the state. For selfish reasons, I'd like to see this continue

actually, they're not.

speaking yoruba doesnt mean they're becoming yoruba. It's just a lingua franca.

i think you're confusing the situation with the ijaw/igbo one.

it's not the same.

ekt_bear:

Heh. I'm saying, subdividing it will awaken Borgu, Nupe ethnolinguistic movements. Currently, they are being slowly absorbed over time into the dominant culture of the state. For selfish reasons, I'd like to see this continue 

Like, it is good for Yorubaland for Kwara to remain one (in my opinion), bad if it is partitioned.

Speaking a language does not mean you are becoming part of that culture. Yoruba is probably used for trade as other language are used for the same in different cultures in Africa. Kwara is also one of the places that will cause a problem if the North and South decide to divide.

There's an Emir of Illorin and the Fulani have never assimilated anybody?

you dont get it.

tpia@:

actually, they're not.

speaking yoruba doesnt mean they're becoming yoruba. It's just a lingua franca.

i think you're confusing the situation with the ijaw/igbo one.

it's not the same.

The Igbo are not assimilating the Ijaw. The Ijaw are not picking up Igbo culture.

tpia@:



you dont get it.

They assimilate people through their paternal ancestry.

@tpia@: Hrm, I'm not sure I agree. Speaking another culture's language is the first step in this process. They won't necessarily see themselves are "Yoruba." But the Emirate is like nearly 200 years old now. Imagine a Hausa or Nupe settler 200 years who moved to Ilorin to fight for Afonja/Alimi, started speaking Yoruba as the common language. What do you think his descendants today would most culturally resemble?

Now, imagine a guy from one of the Nupe LGAs who speaks Yoruba pretty well. He moves to Ilorin to do some sort of business. 200 years from now, who do you think his descendants will most resemble culturally? Nupe, or Yoruba?

You sort of see what I'm saying? This has happened all over the place throughout history, btw.

ekt_bear:

Hrm, I'm not sure I agree. Speaking another culture's language is the first step in this process.

What language are you speaking? What's Nigeria's official language?

^-- Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. But if it is about immigration, then it supports my argument.

ekt_bear:

@tpia@: Hrm, I'm not sure I agree. Speaking another culture's language is the first step in this process. They won't necessarily see themselves are "Yoruba." But the Emirate is like nearly 200 years old now. Imagine a Hausa or Nupe settler 200 years who moved to Ilorin to fight for Afonja/Alimi, started speaking Yoruba as the common language. What do you think his descendants today would most culturally resemble?

Now, imagine a guy from one of the Nupe LGAs who speaks Yoruba pretty well. He moves to Ilorin to do some sort of business. 200 years from now, who do you think his descendants will most resemble culturally? Nupe, or Yoruba?

You sort of see what I'm saying? This has happened all over the place throughout history, btw.

you ignore the fact that what now constitutes southern niger state, used to be yoruba.

so, the yoruba culture and influence was already there. It's probably the other way round, with nupe trying to absorb yoruba indigenes.

migration happens all the time- someone moving to ilorin, or any place, doesnt necessarily become yoruba.

i see your point, but things arent as clearcut as that.

take lagos for instance.

many non-yoruba tribes have been there for generations yet still didnt become yoruba.

ekt_bear:

^-- Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. But if it is about immigration, then it supports my argument.

So you're English?

They assimilate people through their paternal ancestry.

traditional fulani are fiercely protective of their culture, and even though they occasionally release some of their members to assimilate into other tribes, it would be harder to assimilate into them.

ezeagu:

There's an Emir of Illorin and the Fulani have never assimilated anybody? The Fulani ancestry from the male is what the Fulani's use to identify themselves, like the Arab's in Northern Sudan. The Fulani may have taken up other people cultures, but it does not mean they do not identify as Fulani. We all saw how Mr. Bakare was desperately trying to disassociate himself from Kwara.

Not all Kwara people speak Yoruba natively. There examples of a language being used to trade all over Africa, but it does not always indicate identity. Unless Nupe Niger will also become Yoruba. Even Kwara people do not claim any of these people as Yoruba.

the emir of ilorin speaks yoruba is/was addressed by his yoruba name, his kids have yoruba names, whole family are yorubas or fula turned into yoruba. people in kwara they call him oba also.

people dont think of him as a fulani, just as the oba of lagos is not considered a bini.  that said hes an emir, there are countless other people who think they are yoruba and just dont know there family history well, theres nothing fulani have assimilated people into. no one has fula names, no one speaks fula language, and theres no fula culture beside islam and cows. Islam is a religion shared by different ethnicities. so thats not really fula anyway

so what is so fulani about someone, who cant speak fula, doesnt have a fula name, and is not seen as a fula by the people around him?

ekt_bear:

@tpia@: Hrm, I'm not sure I agree. Speaking another culture's language is the first step in this process. They won't necessarily see themselves are "Yoruba." But the Emirate is like nearly 200 years old now. Imagine a Hausa or Nupe settler 200 years who moved to Ilorin to fight for Afonja/Alimi, started speaking Yoruba as the common language. What do you think his descendants today would most culturally resemble?

Now, imagine a guy from one of the Nupe LGAs who speaks Yoruba pretty well. He moves to Ilorin to do some sort of business. 200 years from now, who do you think his descendants will most resemble culturally? Nupe, or Yoruba?

You sort of see what I'm saying? This has happened all over the place throughout history, btw.

agree for anyone to think that every person who is yoruba has yoruba origin generations ago is crazy. i have sooo many fam that consider themselves yoruba but are not yoruba to begin with.

some yoruba peeps with last bello are actually nupe or fulani origins, some yoruba peeps with dawodu are actually nupe, but who will call themselves nupe or fulani if they are not exposed to either culture?

people dont think of him as a fulani, just as the oba of lagos is not considered a bini

wrong analogy.

ezeagu:

So you're English?

No, I'm Nigerian American. But the point is, if I settle down here longterm, my desdendants will view themselves primarily as American. . . their connection to Nigeria will diminish over time.

tpia@:

you ignore the fact that what now constitutes southern niger state, used to be yoruba.

so, the yoruba culture and influence was already there. It's probably the other way round, with nupe trying to absorb yoruba indigenes.

Tpia, but that territory was lost in the 1400s (And it isn't even clear that the demographics/majority group there were Yoruba speakers, but let's temporarily assume that is the case.) Again, this supports my point. . . if we assume that land used to be Yorubaland in 1400, somehow it became Nupeland. The people there don't view themselves as Yoruba, but instead Nupe.

migration happens all the time- someone moving to ilorin, or any place, doesnt necessarily become yoruba.

I think you are fixated too much on the ethnic identity "Yoruba." If you consider yourself an Ilorin indigene, speak only Yoruba, and only know that your ancestor 200 years ago was a Nupe. . . how are you in practice more similar culturally to Nupe than Yoruba? You are for all intents and purposes ([size=2pt]all intensive purposes  [/size] ) Yoruba.

i see your point, but things arent as clearcut as that.

take lagos for instance.

many non-yoruba tribes have been there for generations yet still didnt become yoruba.

The Badagry kingdom (Egun) folk? What of the Hausa that founded this Tinubu family? What of the returned slaves from Brazil and the rest of the New World? They weren't all 100% Yoruba (unless I misremember things.)

the first fulani ruler of ilorin, alimi, had a yoruba mother.

or was it yoruba wife.

I think you are fixated too much on the ethnic identity "Yoruba." If you consider yourself an Ilorin indigene, speak only Yoruba, and only know that your ancestor 200 years ago was a Nupe. . . how are you in practice more similar culturally to Nupe than Yoruba? You are for all intents and purposes (all intensive purposes ) Yoruba.

my point is your so-called nupe ancestor might have also been yoruba.

yes, we all like to be exotic in one way or another but facts remain facts.

Tpia, but that territory was lost in the 1400s (And it isn't even clear that the demographics/majority group there were Yoruba speakers, but let's temporarily assume that is the case.) Again, this supports my point. . . if we assume that land used to be Yorubaland in 1400, somehow it became Nupeland. The people there don't view themselves as Yoruba, but instead Nupe.

people do not forget their history that easily.

the people in that area didnt necessarily become nupe, though you're assuming they did.

and in any case, the area being referenced isnt even kwara.

the oyos also regrouped and took back a lot of their territory anyway.

sbeezy8:

the emir of ilorin speaks yoruba is/was addressed by his yoruba name, his kids have yoruba names, whole family are yorubas or fula turned into yoruba. people in kwara they call him oba also.

people dont think of him as a fulani, just as the oba of lagos is not considered a bini.  that said hes an emir, there are countless other people who think they are yoruba and just dont know there family history well, theres nothing fulani have assimilated people into. no one has fula names, no one speaks fula language, and theres no fula culture beside islam and cows. Islam is a religion shared by different ethnicities. so thats not really fula anyway

so what is so fulani about someone, who cant speak fula, doesnt have a fula name, and is not seen as a fula by the people around him?

The Emir is part of the Caliphate. The man is among the rest of the Fulani Sultans and Emirs, and that shows that the Fulani have power over Ilorin through him. Ilorin through him is under the Fulani, that is assimilated. Alhaji Ibrahim Kolapo Sulu Gambari, is this not the Emir of Illorin's name? And how do you know he doesn't speak Fulani? I don't believe that. An Emir that socialises with other Fulani elites?

ekt_bear:

No, I'm Nigerian American. But the point is, if I settle down here longterm, my desdendants will view themselves primarily as American. . . their connection to Nigeria will diminish over time.

The other groups in Kwara are not settling in other peoples lands. Their culture is there and there's no need for their children to suddenly call themselves Yoruba, which they are not and which the Kwara Yoruba are not, just because of the Yoruba language. Nigeria's official language is English, nobody in Nigeria is gradually turning English.

tpia@:

the first fulani ruler of ilorin, alimi, had a yoruba mother.

or was it yoruba wife.

Right. Abdusalami's (Alimi's son) mother was Yoruba. For all we know, if the Emirs after Abdusalami (see the list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilorin_Emirate) had Yoruba wives, then the actual Fulani DNA in the current Emir is under 1%.

The Badagry kingdom (Egun) folk? What of the Hausa that founded this Tinubu family? What of the returned slaves from Brazil and the rest of the New World? They weren't all 100% Yoruba (unless I misremember things.)

samuel ajayi crowther was from an oyo village.

quite a lot if not most of the returnee slaves were of yoruba heritage.

it was barely one generation after they'd been captured and for many, just some decades later since they still remembered their birthplaces.

dont confuse the situation back then with what we have now.

tpia@:

samuel ajayi crowther was from an oyo village.

quite a lot if not most of the returnee slaves were of yoruba heritage.

it was barely one generation after they'd been captured and for many, just some decades later since they still remembered their birthplaces.

dont confuse the situation back then with what we have now.

Not all of them were from Yorubaland, is my point. I could have sworn that I read this on a paper in JStor. . . I'll see if I can find a reference for this.

And you ignored this Badagry/Egun example I gave you.

Not all of them were from Yorubaland, is my point

^^most of them were.

what about badagry egun?

i think you're reading too much into nl.

some people are just being mischievious with that, and it's all mainly because that axis is a smuggling joint.

OK, of the ones who were not. . . even if it is as little as 5%. What happened to them? Do they still consider themselves from whatever land they were from? Rather than Yoruba?

^^slaves were resettled all over nigeria, not just in lagos alone.

many of the yoruba ones tried to return to their yoruba places of origin but couldnt fit in, so they migrated permanently to lagos.

not all slaves that settled in lagos were yoruba everyone knows that.

most married into elite yoruba families.

yoruba mothers n stuff.

is ramsey noah isreali?

lol

is ben bruce not ijaw?

ezeagu:

The other groups in Kwara are not settling in other peoples lands.

Yes, they are. They are being pulled to Ilorin via commerce and business.

Their culture is there and there's no need for their children to suddenly call themselves Yoruba

Right, so he'll call himself a son of Ilorin. Rather than a son of whatever town his grandpa was from in Nupeland.

which they are not and which the Kwara Yoruba are not, just because of the Yoruba language.

Again, you are too fixated on the word "Yoruba." It just refers to a group of people who speak a certain language and have a certain culture. Ilorin is such a town.

Nigeria's official language is English, nobody in Nigeria is gradually turning English.

Official language != language of day to day speech

im trying to get sum help about algiria if any 1 willing to give me sum advice please

ezeagu:

The Emir is part of the Caliphate. The man is among the rest of the Fulani Sultans and Emirs, and that shows that the Fulani have power over Ilorin through him. Ilorin through him is under the Fulani, that is assimilated. Alhaji Ibrahim Kolapo Sulu Gambari, is this not the Emir of Illorin's name? And how do you know he doesn't speak Fulani? I don't believe that. An Emir that socialises with other Fulani elites?

The other groups in Kwara are not settling in other peoples lands. Their culture is there and there's no need for their children to suddenly call themselves Yoruba, which they are not and which the Kwara Yoruba are not, just because of the Yoruba language. Nigeria's official language is English, nobody in Nigeria is gradually turning English.

yoruba is culture and he doesnt speak fula everyone knows that.

FEW CAN ACTUALLY SPEAK FULA not even the hausa-fulani mixed one can speak fulfude, many emirs cant also its not only him.

didnt binis start calling themselves yoruba  over time? didnt nupe start to call themselves yoruba?

FROM A FULANI PERSON

"Mohammed
Derdiraabe am fulbe on jaarama. I'll like to give my take on why fulfulde is loosing the "battle" to hausa in many parts of Nigeria. First we need to identify affected areas so that we can critically look at the socio-cultural peculiarities of those areas and hopefully identify what d problem is.

As Iziren has already pointed out, the areas affected most are in North-western Nigeria because in the North east, fulfulde is still widely spoken even by non fulani.

In the north west, the fulbe have lived side by side with the Hausa for centuries and the process the 2 tribes have mixed both socially and culturally. But why have the fulbe living in those areas opted for hausa rather than their mother tongue, fulfulde? Well the answer can easily be found if one looks at the building blocks of the two languages. Hausa is probably the simplest language in the whole world. It is so simple, it is almost simplistic. It is a flat language i.e. it lacks depth and therefore it can be learned easily by anyone. Fulfulde on the other hand is very deep and complex. It is in the same class with languages like arabic and hebrew.
It is because of this reason (the ease of learning hausa and the complxity of fulfulde), that most of the fulbe in north western Nigeria speak hausa but not fulfulde. And this has happened not only to fulfulde but to every other language that has existed closely with hausa. In kaduna a city in north west nigeria there are tribes other than hausa and fulani and most members of those tribes especially the younger generations, cannot speak their mother tongue but they can speak hausa.

This is just one aspect (nouns/verbs). If u look at other aspects of grammer like pronouns and adjectives u will find a simillar situation.

The reason why fulfulde is widely spoken in the north east is because the hausas r a minority in there. and the other tribes in those areas are predominantly non muslim and so there has not been any kind of cultural mixing. The fulbe in those areas have stuck pretty much to themselves.

In the city of Gombe where Rukaiya is from, the pattern of what happened in to fulfulde in katsina, sokoto, kano, etc is being repeated. this is because in the last few decades, there has beeen a large inlux of hausa speaking people into gombe town and so the fulbe in that town end up learning the easier of the 2 languages. But when u move to the hinterlands, to places like Nafada, Dukku, Pindiga etc, fulfulde is still holding sway because there is no much competition with hausa. "

The emir of ilorin is not a random person.

HIS MOTHER IS FROM AFONJAS LINE. and Afonjas line are also related to Alimi(the fulani) - both families intermarried over the past 100+ yrs.

both families are elite and married eachother. everyone knows that

Lol. Is it really true that Hausa is a simple language to learn, and Fulani much more rich and complex? Or is that Fulani arrogance again?

What I feel is that those Kwarans should embrace Yoruba fully or stop speaking and bearing Yoruba names.All these issues lead to avoidable identity crisis.No ethnic group consists of only blood-related peoples.They either accept it or migrate back to Mali desert since most of them feel Mali is superior.

As for Lagos.It might have been founded by Bini warriors or whatever but today they have been Yorubanised and should accept it.The other option is returning to Benin.