Kayberg:
But the Ooni of Ife is of an imperial majesty, compared to Oluwo of Iwo.
TAO11, please can you say anything about the two kings?
Not regarding the musician stuff though…

"Imperial majesty" of which empire in the history of humanity? The entire Yoruba history to date has only witnessed a single empire and Ooni was not the ruler.

Cc: Kayberg

Amalekki:
"Imperial majesty" of which empire in the history of humanity? The entire Yoruba history to date has only witnessed a single empire and Ooni was not the ruler.

“Occupying a key site on the route from the Bend to Ife, Oyo was probably one of the earliest-founded provincial capitals in the Ife empire.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment,” Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol.9, No. 4. (1979), p. 115.
—————

In other words, IFE was the first empire we built. It was the vastest and the grandest we ever had.

Ife flourished as an empire from c.1100s to c.1400s. A new empire began at Oyo from c.1580 to c.1835.

Cheers.

TAO11:
Cc: Kayberg

“Occupying a key site on the route from the Bend to Ife, Oyo was probably one of the earliest-founded provincial capitals in the Ife empire.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment,” Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol.9, No. 4. (1979), p. 115.
—————

Whatever makes you sleep well at night. Oyo Empire we know! Benin Empire we know! ... and we know the kings. Was the Imperial Majesty of Oyo Empire called Ooni? That's my question to him.

TAO11:
Cc: Kayberg

“Occupying a key site on the route from the Bend to Ife, Oyo was probably one of the earliest-founded provincial capitals in the Ife empire.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment,” Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol.9, No. 4. (1979), p. 115.
—————

In other words, IFE was the first empire we built. It was the vastest and the grandest we ever had.

Ife flourished as an empire from c.1100s to c.1400s. A new empire began at Oyo from c.1580 to c.1835.

Cheers.

*I see you updated your post.
Which Yoruba towns were under that first IFE empire? Was it a YORUBA empire? Which Yoruba towns were in existence then? You know the meaning of Empire... so which states/kingdoms were under that first IFE empire?

Ykc2:
oni is not a king his the chief priest of all the yoruba oracles but awolowo upgraded his statue then he start acting like a king,alafin of oyo said this not from me,

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Cc: Amalekki

Picture angles and timeline could create a deceptive image and erroneous context

cc @TAO11

Amalekki:

Whatever makes you sleep well at night. Oyo Empire we know! Benin Empire we know! ... and we know the kings. Was the Imperial Majesty of Oyo Empire called Ooni? That's my question to him.

Those who named Benin as empire, and those who named Oyo as empire — i.e. historians — are the very same ones who named IFE as an empire and father of them all. The opinion of your lay-self don’t matter.

As per your question, the office of the Oyo king is not called Ooni; it is called Alaafin. And the office of the Ife king is called Ooni.

Amalekki:
*I see you updated your post.
Which Yoruba towns were under that first IFE empire? Was it a YORUBA empire? Which Yoruba towns were in existence then? You know the meaning of Empire... so which states/kingdoms were under that first IFE empire?

Firstly, you should be reminded that your assumption that Ife was never an empire is a mistaken assumption that has now been corrected by that quotation sanctioned by the body of historical scholarship of Nigeria as published by Robin Horton.
—————
As such, your new question here is understood by me as a request for further enlightenment (and not as a pushback by your lay-self against the findings reached by historical scholarship).

In that case, the answer to your new question is found already in that quotation as well as in the quotation below:

“During the era of Ife’s greatest historic power, the twelfth to fifteenth centuries C.E. [i.e. 1100s to 1400s], its influence spanned eastward to the Niger River and westward to what is today southern Togo*”

~ Suzanne P. Blier, “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, (2015), p. 2.

Amalekki:
Picture angles and timeline could create a deceptive image and erroneous context

Amalekki:
cc @TAO11

LMAO. What did I just read?

IF a 47 year old Ooni (on his feet) stretches his hand to greet an 82 year old Alaafin (already seated); then we can speak of age-difference/angle of elevation as the possible explanation for the apparent bowing.

IF an 82 year old Alaafin (on his feet) bows so intently to greet a 47 year old Ooni (also on his feet) and even taller in physical stature); then your funny gymnastics of angle remains a laughable desperation.

Cheers.

TAO11:

Firstly, you should be reminded that your assumption that Ife was never an empire is a mistaken assumption that has now been corrected by that quotation sanctioned by the body of historical scholarship of Nigeria as published by Robin Horton.
—————
As such, your new question here is understood by me as a request for further enlightenment (and not as a pushback by your lay-self against the findings reached by historical scholarship).

In that case, the answer to your new question is found already in that quotation as well as in the quotation below:

“During the era of Ife’s greatest historic power, the twelfth to fifteenth centuries C.E. [i.e. 1100s to 1400s], its influence spanned eastward to the Niger River and westward to what is today southern Togo*”

~ Suzanne P. Blier, “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, (2015), p. 2.

It's clear you have not answered my question.
Which specific Kingdoms and States were under that old IFE EMPIRE? Which YORUBA towns were in existence at that time?
Who are these people of Southern Togo? Who are the people eastward to the Niger River? Any specific towns, kingdoms?
*It is not enough to just add a citation of one Suzanne Blier published in 2015.

TAO11:


LMAO. What did I just read?

IF a 47 year old Ooni (on his feet) stretches his hand to greet an 82 year old Alaafin (already seated); then we can speak of age-difference/angle of elevation as the possible explanation for the apparent bowing.

IF an 82 year old Alaafin (on his feet) bows so intently to greet a 47 year old Ooni (also on his feet) and even taller in physical stature); then your funny gymnastics of angle remains a laughable desperation.

Cheers.

Stop making a mountain out of a molehill, what would have helped your argument was Alaafin to have got up from his seat.
Alaafin greeting Ooni, or vice versa, no matter your perceived interpretation cannot change the age-long and well-documented position of the Alaafin across multiple generation of Oonis. This adds NOTHING to the debate, let's not descend to such a pedestrian level abeg - that is desperation
I have seen videos of the Alaafin even addressing the Ooni and other kings as an elder - it adds nothing to the debate.

Amalekki:

It's clear you have not answered my question.
Which specific Kingdoms and States were under that old IFE EMPIRE? Which YORUBA towns were in existence at that time?
Who are these people of Southern Togo? Who are the people eastward to the Niger River? Any specific towns, kingdoms?
*It is not enough to just add a citation of one Suzanne Blier published in 2015.

Or the citation of the Historical Society of Nigeria — all members of whom are your students?

Put in effort to leave this thread better educated than you came.
——————
I still don’t understand how the list of kingdoms typed below changes anything from what you’ve already learnt today about the Ife empire:

Sabe, Ana, Popo, Ketu, Ila-Orangun, Ilesa, Yagba, Oyo, Awori kingdoms, Benin, etc. amongst all our kingdoms founded prior to the 1500.

Cheers.

Amalekki:

Stop making a mountain out of a molehill, what would have helped your argument was Alaafin to have got up from his seat.
Alaafin greeting Ooni, or vice versa, no matter your perceived interpretation cannot change the age-long and well-documented position of the Alaafin across multiple generation of Oonis. This adds NOTHING to the debate, let's not descend to such a pedestrian level abeg - that is desperation
I have seen videos of the Alaafin even addressing the Ooni and other kings as an elder - it adds nothing to the debate.

What debate? Lol.
——————
I was simply highlighting your desperation. And I was showing what you probably already know — which is that:

The Alaafin bowing so intently to the Ooni as shown in that picture was not because the Ooni was older in age [reverse is obviously the case], and neither can it be explained by your resort to elevation angle (they were both on their feet). But same cannot be said of the picture you tried to bring to your rescue.

The reason for the intentional bowing of the Alaafin is clear. The difference in office.

You are the one bent on making a mountain out of a molehill perhaps due to fear of believing your eyes.

Cheers.

TAO11:
Or the citation of the Historical Society of Nigeria — all members of whom are your students. Lol.

Put in effort to leave this thread better educated than you came.
——————
I still don’t understand how the list of kingdoms typed below changes anything from what you’ve already learnt today about the Ife empire:

Sabe, Ana, Popo, Ketu, Ila-Orangun, Ilesa, Yagba, Oyo, Benin, et al. amongst all Yoruba kingdoms founded prior to the 1500.

Cheers.

Not at all. All I see is more gaping historical gaps and holes .

A clear indication of a calculated manipulation which makes me even more curious why the Alaafin of Oyo insists that Ooni was never a king above the Alaafin. Establishing a new Empire in Oyo shouldn't have automatically led to a total detachment from "Ooni" of Ife if he was truly the imperial majesty of a previous directly linked empire. Afterall, what was never ever in dispute anywhere is the true royalty of the Alaafin

Which leads to the next question. What led to the collapse of this your OLD IFE EMPIRE that ended before the famous and undisputable Oyo Empire?

At least I'm glad we are no longer quoting academic sources of how a king descended from the sky to establish Ile-Ife while holding McDonalds chicken anymore - we have polished that side of the story

TAO11:
What debate? Lol.
——————
I was simply highlighting your desperation.

And I was showing what you probably already know — which is that:

The Alaafin bowing so intently to the Ooni as shown in that picture was not because the Ooni was older in age [reverse is obviously the case], and neither can it be explained by a desperate resort to elevation angle (they were both on their feet). Same cannot be said of your image.

The reason for the intentional bowing of the Alaafin is clear. The difference in office. You are the one bent on making a mountain out of a molehill perhaps due to fear of believing your eyes.

Cheers.

You don't get it, do you? You posted an asinine picture - it is your desperation. The pictures mean NOTHING though it's clear you really wanted to make a lame point out of it, or don't you understand the meaning of the word 'desperation'?

Actions speaks louder than words. Alaafin said X in the absence of a former Ooni. But same Alaafin bows so intently to a newer Ooni. Lol. Apply critical reasoning.

Amalekki:
Not at all. All I see is more gaping historical gaps and holes .
A clear indication of a calculated manipulation which makes me even more curious why the Alaafin of Oyo insists that Ooni was never a king above the Alaafin. Establishing a new Empire in Oyo shouldn't have automatically led to a total detachment from "Ooni" of Ife if he was truly the imperial majesty of a previous directly linked empire. Afterall, what was never ever in dispute anywhere is the true royalty of the Alaafin

May be you should retype this is English language. Lol.

But from what I could glean, it is clear that PPD is real. Lol. All you’re saying is that historians the world over are LiArS. A classic case of when the argument is lost, then slander becomes the tool of the loser. Lol.

Addressing the bolded part of your comment:
IF Alaafin truly had an empire, then the Egba wouldn’t now be so, so independent of Oyo.

PS: I’m aware that Oyo also became an empire (after IFE), I’m only pointing out the laughableness of your bolded statement.

Amalekki:
You don't get it, do you? You posted an asinine picture - it is your desperation. The pictures mean NOTHING though it's clear you really wanted to make a lame point out of it, or don't you understand the meaning of the word 'desperation'?

No. Pictures don’t mean nothing in the real world. Lol.

Perhaps they mean nothing in an imaginary world.

But in this real world, the picture says to anyone with 1 brain-cell that the Alaafin bowed intently to Ooni.

And unlike in the 2nd picture you brought, the posture cannot possibly be explained away in terms of the age of the Ooni.

Neither can the posture be explained away by their relative angle of elevation.

The only logical explanation which everyone knows is what it obviously is: their respective status which the Alaafin is well aware of.

Cheers.

TAO11:
Actions speaks louder than words. Alaafin said X in the absence of a former Ooni. But bows intently to a present Ooni. Lol. Apply critical reasoning.

May be you should retype this is English language. Lol.

But from what I could glean, it is clear that PPD is real. Lol. All you’re saying is that historians the world over are LiArS. A classic case of when the argument is lost, then slander becomes the tool of the loser. Lol.

Addressing the bolded part of your comment:
IF Alaafin truly had an empire, then the Egba wouldn’t now be independent of such empire.

PS: I know the Alaafin had an empire from 1580 to 1835, I’m only pointing out the laughableness of your bolded argument.

You should have asked direct and specific questions as advised in every scholarly inclination instead of grandstanding when you are in doubt, the onus of clarity is still on the 'author' of a position, right?

Well, I can see through it all and understand your forte. Nothing to gain from this other than a front seat, albeit free, at an exhibition of perceived grandeur, delusional or not. The "two" EMPIRES are dead and buried. Several generations from Sabe, to Sepeteri, to Apomu, to Modakeke, have been effectively ripped from their literal reins ages ago. Trying to recreate dead and buried empires in 2021 is an exercise in futility and at best a laughable attempt at playing the ostrich - neither can go to the other's domain to issue a command .

Enjoy your day!

Amalekki:

You should have asked direct and specific questions as advised in every scholarly inclination instead of grandstanding when you are in doubt, the onus of clarity is still on the 'author' of a position, right?

Well, I can see through it all and understand your forte. Nothing to gain from this other than a front seat, albeit free, at an exhibition of perceived grandeur, delusional or not. The "two" EMPIRES are dead and buried. Several generations from Sabe, to Sepeteri, to Apomu, to Modakeke, have been effectively ripped from their literal reins ages ago. Trying to recreate dead and buried empires in 2021 is an exercise in futility and at best a laughable attempt at playing the ostrich .

Enjoy your day!

Lol. Strawman fallacy everywhere.

Firstly, no where was I seeking any information from you, let alone asking it indirectly or non-clearly. Nope.

I was simply correcting your mistake in your reply to Kayberg. I was educating you on what you clearly did not know — I can’t assume you knew but were lying.

I was making you see that although most lay persons don’t know this, historical scholarship is aware that IFE was the first empire we had. And Oyo became an empire more than a century after its fall.


Secondly, no where so far was I educating you to the effect of resurrecting Ife empire and Oyo empire.

But NOW, I think they should be resurrected and glow beyond the historic powers — all Yorubaland for that matter.

I hope you have left this thread better than you came in. That was my motive.

Cheers.

TAO11:
Actions speaks louder than words. Alaafin said X in the absence of a former Ooni. But same Alaafin bows so intently to a newer Ooni. Lol. Apply critical reasoning.

May be you should retype this is English language. Lol.

But from what I could glean, it is clear that PPD is real. Lol. All you’re saying is that historians the world over are LiArS. A classic case of when the argument is lost, then slander becomes the tool of the loser. Lol.

Addressing the bolded part of your comment:
IF Alaafin truly had an empire, then the Egba wouldn’t now be so, so independent of Oyo.

PS: I’m aware that Oyo also became an empire (after IFE), I’m only pointing out the laughableness of your bolded statement.

You missed his point.

Egba never questioned the existence of Oyo Empire, they were part of it. Oyo did not acknowledge any Ife Empire.

Shikena:

You missed his point.

Egba never questioned the existence of Oyo Empire, they were part of it. Oyo did not acknowledge any Ife Empire.

His point? Which point? His point which I have retyped below or your own which I will now address?:

Here is his point and I quote:

“Establishing a new Empire in Oyo shouldn't have automatically led to a total detachment from "Ooni" of Ife if he was truly the imperial majesty of a previous directly linked empire”

As you should have now seen, his point is about how Oyo is nowadays detached from the Ooni.

And the intended effect of his point was debunked by
my reply viz.

“IF Alaafin truly had an empire, then the Egba wouldn’t now be so, so independent of Oyo.

PS: I’m aware that Oyo also became an empire (after IFE), I’m only pointing out the laughableness of your bolded statement”
————————

From his statement quoted above, his claim (although evidently false as I have shown via a tool which speaks a thousand words) is that the Alaafin of today doesn’t consider the Ooni to be higher than him.

From his quotation, his claim was NOT that Oyo says IFE was never an empire at any time in our history.
—————
This new one is your own point. And it is false because:

To know who was ever an empire in West-Africa, and who was never, the answer is not dependent on who Oyo pints to.

Instead, the answer is dependent on who history points to. And history (as I have cited the Historical society of Nigeria) says Ife was an empire. And Oyo too later became an empire, among others.

Moreover, Oyo history admits that Oyo was found by a prince from a pre-existing Ife.

Cheers.

TAO11:
His point? Which point? His point which I have retyped below or your own which I will now address?:

Here is his point and I quote:

“Establishing a new Empire in Oyo shouldn't have automatically led to a total detachment from "Ooni" of Ife if he was truly the imperial majesty of a previous directly linked empire”

As you should have now seen, his point is about how Oyo is nowadays detached from the Ooni.

And the intended effect of his point was debunked by
my reply viz.

“IF Alaafin truly had an empire, then the Egba wouldn’t now be so, so independent of Oyo.

PS: I’m aware that Oyo also became an empire (after IFE), I’m only pointing out the laughableness of your bolded statement”
————————

From his statement quoted above, his claim (although evidently false as I have shown via a tool which speaks a thousand words) is that the Alaafin of today doesn’t consider the Ooni to be higher than him.

From his quotation, his claim was NOT that Oyo says IFE was never an empire at any time in our history.
—————
This new one is your own point. And it is false because:

To know who was ever an empire in West-Africa, and who was never, the answer is not dependent on who Oyo pints to.

Instead, the answer is dependent on who history points to. And history (as I have cited the Historical society of Nigeria) says Ife was an empire. And Oyo too later became an empire, among others.

Moreover, Oyo history admits that Oyo was found by a prince from a pre-existing Ife.

Cheers.

I have read through your source from Historical Society of Nigeria, why are you making it out like those 'positions' you keep quoting to suit your personal inclination are the consensus?

Shikena:
I have read through your source from Historical Society of Nigeria, why are you making it out like those 'positions' you keep quoting to suit your personal inclination are the consensus?

My personal inclination? Lol.

My name is “Historical Society of Nigeria” which says what I have said? Lol.

And yes the “Historical Society of Nigeria”’s position on ‘Nigeria’ history is a consensus. Lol.

I have cited another historian also even though I didn’t have to cite more than the HSN. I can cite more still even though I don’t have to.


Don’t you think it is now a case of you against history? Don’t you think you should be the one to now buttress your personal inclination with historical evidence? Lol.

Cheers.

TAO11:
My personal inclination? Lol.

My name is “Historical Society of Nigeria” which says what I have said? Lol.

And yes the “Historical Society of Nigeria”’s position on ‘Nigeria’ history is a consensus. Lol.

I have cited another historian also even though I didn’t have to cite more than the HSN. I can cite more still even though I don’t have to.


Don’t you think it is now a case of you against history? Don’t you think you should be the one to now buttress your personal inclination with historical evidence? Lol.

Cheers.

No, history is not ONE person. There are different versions, and your sources were assessing and reviewing some of those versions citing several sources including personal communications. It's all there in your citations

I wonder why we are trying to re-establish what is already dead as mentioned above - Ooni was at a time under the Baale of Modakeke (which effectively underlines a valid claim of superiority!!!)
See the 'position' of one historian below:

Horton, R (1979): Journal Article ANCIENT IFE: A REASSESSMENT - ROBIN HORTON Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), p. 128

Shikena:
No, history is not ONE person. There are different versions, and your sources were assessing and reviewing some of those versions citing several sources including personal communications. It's all there in your citations

You’re arguing blindly.

I said “X”:
And I’ve cited the historical evidence for it.

You said “Not X”:
And up till now, all you’re saying is I should take your word for it. You didn’t cite even a toilet-roll.

Lol. My people can embarass themselves?
—————

And “Historical Society of Nigeria” is NOT one person.

In addition to the “Historical Society of Nigeria”, S. P. Blier says the same, S. A. Akintoye says the same, A. Ogundiran says the same, etc.

For the umpteenth time, is there any reason why you are you adamant against what history says?

Do you have one single historical evidence to back up your layman agidi? Lol.

Cheers.

Shikena:
I wonder why we are trying to re-establish what is already dead as mentioned above - Ooni was at a time under the Baale of Modakeke (which effectively underlines a valid claim of superiority!!!)
See the 'position' of one historian below:

Horton, R (1979): Journal Article ANCIENT IFE: A REASSESSMENT - ROBIN HORTON Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), p. 128

I would be lying if I said anyone on Nairaland argue blindly than you do.

(1) Your screenshot clearly doesn’t say what you wish that it should say. It simply talks about how Ife was caused to be deserted by the Ife-Modakeke conflicts.

(2) To say Ooni was under Modakake’s Baale (which is not found anywhere in history) is as dumb as saying Oyo was under the Emir of Ilorin because Ilorin sacked Oyo. Or that Oyo was never an empire because Ilorin sacked Oyo.

(3) Ife was an empire up to the 1400s. Oyo began as an empire in the late-1500s and ended in c. 1835.

The Ife-Modakeke conflicts first emerged in the1800s.

How on Earth does such conflict of the 1800s impact Ife empire which ended in the 1400s? How?

Critical thinking is key.

TAO11:
I would be lying if I said anyone on Nairaland argue blindly than you do.

(1) Your screenshot clearly doesn’t say what you wish that it should say. It simply talks about how Ife was caused to be deserted by the Ife-Modakeke conflicts.

(2) To say Ooni was under Modakake’s Baale (which is not found anywhere in history) is as dumb as saying Oyo was under the Emir of Ilorin because Ilorin sacked Oyo. Or that Oyo was never an empire because Ilorin sacked Oyo.

(3) Ife was an empire up to the 1400s. Oyo began as an empire in the late-1500s and ended in c. 1835.

The Ife-Modakeke conflicts first emerged in the1800s. How on Eart does a conflict which didn’t occur until in the 1800s have any thing to do with Ife empire which started as an empire in the 1100s and ended in the 1400s? How? Critical thinking is key.

I disagree, I have shown you evidence that Modakeke's Baale sacked Ife and the people of Ife fled. The rest is left to imagination as most of history, regardless of how we try to sound to make it scholarly

Shikena:

I disagree, I have shown you evidence that Modakeke's Baale sacked Ife and the people of Ife fled. The rest is left to imagination as most of history, regardless of how we try to sound to make it scholarly

Eeyah!

Ilorin sacked Oyo in the early-1800s, hence Oyo was never an empire starting from c1580?

Is that how you reason?
—————-
(1) Ife was an empire starting from the 1100s, ending in the 1400s. ~ Says History as Cited already.

(2) I disagree says a certain nobody on Nairaland.

TAO11:
Eeyah!


Ilorin sacked Oyo in the early-1800s, hence Oyo was never an empire from 1580?

Is that how you reason.

No, I'm more interested in the supremacy of Baale of Modakeke now. I want to know more about that. Thanks for your materials from Historical Society of Nigeria

Emilokoiyawon:
Dele Momodu is a Yoruba man from Edo state.

I think his from ife

Shikena:

No, I'm more interested in the supremacy of Baale of Modakeke now. I want to know more about that. Thanks for your materials from Historical Society of Nigeria

Good that you now realize that according to history as cited Ife empire ended in the 1400s.
—————

Now to your request:
The Baale King of Modakeke never had any so-called supremacy. Nowhere is such found. It is found only in your head.

——————

Modakeke and Ife had conflicts during which both Ife and Modakake were deserted. Have you heard of the Yoruba wars? This particular one began in the 1800s.

——————

The fact that it happened in the 1800s means that it happened some 400 years after Ife was no longer an empire.

Despite the conflict, the King of Modakek still admit that the Ooni is his overlord till date.

——————

Do you agree with yourself that the emir of Ilorin had supremacy over Oyo because Ilorin sacked Oyo?

Do you agree with yourself that Oyo wasn’t once an empire because Ilorin sacked Oyo?

Cheers.