safarifarms:
■ Born of water and of the spirit doesn't mean water baptism, neither does it mean physical birth. The combination actually means to be born of the spirit which brings along transformation of the heart (cleansing). The water there signifies the cleansing of the Holy spirit.
■ The new testament is about worship in Spirit and in truth, no more of rituals and symbolism. More details here: https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html Note: I don't agree with all the doctrines of the above website but I agree with this one and many others.

1. Let's begin by pointing out the obvious flaws in your claim there.
■ Jesus Christ never said anything about a transformation of the heart(cleansing) in His explanation of the term "born-again" during His entire conversation on the topic with Nicodemus in John 3 vs 1 - 21.
■ Jesus Christ also never mentioned the person of the Holy Spirit or a supposed cleansing by Him in the entirety of that conversation.

So, I don't think what you are describing here is the same Born-again process that Jesus Christ in fact took time to explain t His followers.

2. Interesting claim! Anyways, Jesus Christ, when He first began His mission, proclaimed the same message of repentance which John the Baptist had been preaching before He showed up on the scene, and according to John, the Baptist, he baptized the people using water to mark their transition from following the Old Way to following the New Way —Jesus Christ— that the message of repentance that He was sent to preach to the people, the same message that Jesus Christ proclaimed and urged His followers to continue. If symbolism, according to you, is removed from the New Covenant, then shouldn't we equally throw out the eating of the bread and drinking of blood, the very core ritual at the heart of the New Covenant agreement?

safarifarms:
■ I want to believe you are referring to the following scripture. Mat 28:19: Do you realize that baptism doesn't always mean water baptism? Baptism actually means immersion. And we've seen baptism in bible mean teaching. 1 Cor. 10:1-2. What does baptized into Moses mean? It means they were immersed into Moses's teachings. So to align with other teachings of scripture [b]what Jesus really meant was to teach in the name of the Father, Son and Holy spirit. Again for the new testament there's only one Baptism which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:4-6, Acts 19

■ Notice Paul's surprise that they were said to be Baptized but it wasn't the baptism of the Holy spirit that he asked them "Unto what then were ye baptized?" Because if you say you are baptized then it should be of the only one Baptism which is that of the Holy Ghost but they instead had John's baptism (water baptism)

1. Again, let's point out the obvious errors in your thinking here.
■ Jesus Christ taught the very same message of repentance that John the Baptist taught, and He had his disciples going around baptizing people just as John did.

22 After this, Jesus and his followers went into the area of Judea. There he stayed with his followers and baptized people.
23 John was also baptizing people in Aenon, a place near Salim with plenty of water. People were going there to be baptized.
24 This was before John was put in prison.
25 Some of John’s followers had an argument with another Jew about religious washing.
26 Then they came to John and said, “Teacher, remember the man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan River? He is the one you were telling everyone about. He is also baptizing people, and many are going to him.”
27 John answered, “A person can receive only what God gives.
28 You yourselves heard me say, ‘I am not the Messiah. I am only the one God sent to prepare the way for him.’
29 The bride always belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who helps the bridegroom just waits and listens. He is happy just to hear the bridegroom talk. That’s how I feel now. I am so happy that he is here.
30 He must become more and more important, and I must become less important. - John 3 vs 22 - 30

■ Now again, when Jesus Christ explained the concept of being born-again, He never once mentions the Holy Spirit nor alludes to his involvement in the process at all. The only time Jesus Christ brings up talk about the Holy Spirit, He said so of those who are no longer of the world — those who are holy. Clearly, a sinner, who only just got born-again is still a sinner and remains of the world of sin, hence is not able to interact with the person of the Holy Spirit.

2. Leave the mentions of Paul to the side until we have a full grasp of what the Law, Jesus Christ, in fact, says of this topic.

Kobojunkie:
1. Again, let's point out the obvious errors in your thinking here.
■ Jesus Christ taught the very same message of repentance that John the Baptist taught, and He had his disciples going around baptizing people just as John did.
■ Now again, when Jesus Christ explained the concept of being born-again, He never once mentions the Holy Spirit nor alludes to his involvement in the process at all. The only time Jesus Christ brings up talk about the Holy Spirit, He said so of those who are no longer of the world — those who are holy. Clearly, a sinner, who only just got born-again is still a sinner and remains of the world of sin, hence is not able to interact with the person of the Holy Spirit.

2. Leave the mentions of Paul to the side until we have a full grasp of what the Law, Jesus Christ, in fact, says of this topic.

Wow. What then did he even mean by being born of the Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV)
13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Again the above passage associates the Holy Spirit with water. Believers drink of one Spirit.

How can you say that being born again does not involve the Holy Spirit? What spirit is Jesus referring to when saying you must be born of the Spirit? When the Bible clearly lets us know that God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.

John 4:24 (King James Version)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

As flesh you can't have anything to do with God. That is the whole essence of the 2nd birth to become a Spirit so that you can relate with God who is a Spirit.

Romans 8:9 (ESV)
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

If you don't have the Spirit of Christ (which is the whole essence of the new birth), then you have no business with God.

John 6:63 (ESV)
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Concerning Jesus' disciples going about baptizing people, I hope you do realize that the new testament had not yet taken effect at the time. I know you'll follow up with the cross testamental application of doctrine which saw the early Apostles including Paul baptize people earlier on in their ministry. But you need to realize that this had to do with the level of understanding the had at the time. It's the same reason they were busy asking gentiles to be circumcised (another old testament ritual) which was not necessary.

Read the following where Paul declares that Christ did not send him to baptize.

1 Cor 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

The ending part of his statement is very instructive.

The following statement you made surprises me.
Clearly, a sinner, who only just got born-again is still a sinner and remains of the world of sin, hence is not able to interact with the person of the Holy Spirit.

If this is correct then the thief on the Cross had no business with Heaven that Jesus promised him. Because even after he'd believed in Christ he was still clearly a sinner and can't interact with the Holy Spirit. And the Bible clearly states as I'd earlier quoted that who ever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to God. So there can't be any heaven for him.

What would you say of the occurrence in Acts 10:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Gentiles were considered as outsiders/sinners however, while Peter was still preaching to them, the Holy Spirit didn't even wait for Peter to make an Alter call to now start the "conversion process" (I deliberately put that in quotes), they Holy Spirit came on them. How were they able to interact with the Holy Spirit?

Kobojunkie:
1. Let's begin by pointing out the obvious flaws in your claim there.
■ Jesus Christ never said anything about a transformation of the heart(cleansing) in His explanation of the term "born-again" during His entire conversation on the topic with Nicodemus in John 3 vs 1 - 21.
■ Jesus Christ also never mentioned the person of the Holy Spirit or a supposed cleansing by Him in the entirety of that conversation.

So, I don't think what you are describing here is the same Born-again process that Jesus Christ in fact took time to explain t His followers.

2. Interesting claim! Anyways, Jesus Christ, when He first began His mission, proclaimed the same message of repentance which John the Baptist had been preaching before He showed up on the scene, and according to John, the Baptist, he baptized the people using water to mark their transition from following the Old Way to following the New Way —Jesus Christ— that the message of repentance that He was sent to preach to the people, the same message that Jesus Christ proclaimed and urged His followers to continue. If symbolism, according to you, is removed from the New Covenant, then shouldn't we equally throw out the eating of the bread and drinking of blood, the very core ritual at the heart of the New Covenant agreement?

I don't want to talk about breaking of bread and drinking of blood. Let's leave that for another day to avoid derailing.

safarifarms:
I don't want to talk about breaking of bread and drinking of blood. Let's leave that for another day to avoid derailing.

I mentioned it because it is symbolism — ceremonial—something you claim isn't a part of the New Covenant.

safarifarms:
■ Wow. What then did he even mean by being born of the Spirit? 1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) Again the above passage associates the Holy Spirit with water. Believers drink of one Spirit.
■ How can you say that being born again does not involve the Holy Spirit? What spirit is Jesus referring to when saying you must be born of the Spirit? When the Bible clearly lets us know that God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth. As flesh, you can't have anything to do with God. That is the whole essence of the 2nd birth to become a Spirit so that you can relate with God who is a Spirit. If you don't have the Spirit of Christ (which is the whole essence of the new birth), then you have no business with God.
■ Concerning Jesus' disciples going about baptizing people, I hope you do realize that the new testament had not yet taken effect at the time.
■ The following statement you made surprises me. Clearly, a sinner, who only just got born-again is still a sinner and remains in the world of sin, hence is not able to interact with the person of the Holy Spirit. If this is correct then the thief on the Cross had no business with Heaven that Jesus promised him. Because even after he'd believed in Christ he was still clearly a sinner and can't interact with the Holy Spirit. And the Bible clearly states as I'd earlier quoted that who ever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to God. So there can't be any heaven for him.
■ What would you say of the occurrence in Acts 10: Gentiles were considered as outsiders/sinners however, while Peter was still preaching to them, the Holy Spirit didn't even wait for Peter to make an Alter call to now start the "conversion process" (I deliberately put that in quotes), they Holy Spirit came on them. How were they able to interact with the Holy Spirit?

1. This is the very reason why I said we should first get a good grasp of what the Law Himself says of these things before we go attempting to dissect what Paul or any others opined.

2. Pay attention to what Jesus Christ in fact said, and stop assuming that every mention of Spirit is a reference to the Spirit of Truth aka the Holy Spirit. Again, Jesus Christ said to be born again means to be born of water and born of Spirit. Jesus Christ never said the Spirit you are born of at that point is the Holy Spirit aka the Spirit of Truth.

3. I am afraid what you claim makes no sense at all. Yes, the Covenant was ratified after Jesus Christ died and was raised from the grave, but that doesn't actually mean that the disciples were not in fact born-again before that point in time.

By the way, I suggest again that we keep the mentions of Paul out of this discussion because when I examine the same passages you reference, I find they do not in any way connect at all to this discussion in any way. So let's please stay focused on Jesus Christ, the one who is the author and finisher of this faith after all. We can examine Paul's claims on another thread or later on when we are done understanding Jesus Christ.

4. But, Jesus Christ never promised the thief on the cross of Heaven to begin with. Jesus Christ instead promised the man that he would be in paradise that same day. We know that Jesus Christ was in the grave that day and three days after that. So, from that, we can surmise that what Jesus Christ did was promise the thief that he would die that very same day, as opposed to hanging on the cross for several days before succumbing to dehydration or something else. Paradise is a simple euphemism for the grave.

5. Again, let's first understand what God Himself said before we go dissecting the accounts of men.

Kobojunkie:
I mentioned it because it is symbolism — ceremonial—something you claim isn't a part of the New Covenant.

Like I said, let's leave that one for now. This thread is about the relevance of water baptism. Besides this one is a lot more straight forward. If this one can't be settled, there won't be any point trying to discuss the other one.

safarifarms:
■ Like I said, let's leave that one for now. This thread is about the relevance of water baptism. Besides this one is a lot more straight forward. If this one can't be settled, there won't be any point trying to discuss the other one.

So long as it means you no longer hold to this no-symbolism-allowed idea of the New Covenant, sure.

Kobojunkie:
1. This is the very reason why I said we should first get a good grasp of what the Law Himself says of these things before we go attempting to dissect what Paul or any others opined.

Really?

2. Pay attention to what Jesus Christ in fact said, and stop assuming that every mention of Spirit is a reference to the Spirit of Truth aka the Holy Spirit. Again, Jesus Christ said to be born again means to be born of water and born of Spirit. Jesus Christ never said the Spirit you are born of at that point is the Holy Spirit aka the Spirit of Truth.

If we have to go by exact words. Then Jesus didn't say here that you must be baptized. He said you should be born of water. Go figure. As per your style of pushing ideas. That make reference to any other portion of the bible. What he said is to be born of water and Spirit, nothing more nothing less.

3. I am afraid what you claim makes no sense at all. Yes, the Covenant was ratified after Jesus Christ died and was raised from the grave, but that doesn't actually mean that the disciples were not in fact born-again before that point in time.

By the way, I suggest again that we keep the mentions of Paul out of this discussion because when I examine the same passages you reference, I find they do not in any way connect at all to this discussion in any way. So let's please stay focused on Jesus Christ, the one who is the author and finisher of this faith after all. We can examine Paul's claims on another thread or later on when we are done understanding Jesus Christ.

It's unfortunate that you decided that other parts of the Bible can't be quoted except it's statements made by Jesus which is on it's on a Falacy. If we should only select statements of Jesus for interpreting the Bible then how would you even proof that Jesus is the Messiah? Would it be by his own statements only? The Bible is one continous documentation about Jesus Christ and the and proper understanding of the bible lies in the whole, not in parts.

4. But, Jesus Christ never promised the thief on the cross of Heaven to begin with. Jesus Christ instead promised the man that he would be in paradise that same day. We know that Jesus Christ was in the grave that day and three days after that. So, from that, we can surmise that what Jesus Christ did was promise the thief that he would die that very same day, as opposed to hanging on the cross for several days before succumbing to dehydration or something else. Paradise is a simple euphemism for the grave.

You are good at seeing things not making sense yet you see sense in Jesus promising someone the grave which is the default destination of dead bodies. Wow. Wonderful sense indeed.

5. Again, let's first understand what God Himself said before we go dissecting the accounts of men.

From this stand point of yours you are clearly not ready to dissect the truth.

John 5:39 King James Bible
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus himself admonished that we should search the scriptures that they testify of him. Were the scripture that Jesus gave credence to written by Jesus? Or were they completely comprising of Jesus' statements?

before we go dissecting the accounts of men.

As if the Gospels were written by Jesus and were not eye witness accounts of men.

Kobojunkie:
So long as it means you no longer hold to this no-symbolism-allowed idea of the New Covenant, sure.

You can't force me to accept anything. I only depend on the Bible.

safarifarms:
You can't force me to accept anything. I only depend on the Bible.

If you did depend on what is written, you would accept that the ritual of baptism is a pivotal part of the process for all those who wish to repent — abandon the Old Way(Law of Moses) to embrace instead the New Way(The New agreement, Jesus Christ). But you don't seem to accept that at all.

NNTR:
Jesus wasntt discussing symbolism, but He actually was stating a brutal fact about human being births, and thereafter went to mention the two criteria for a human being needed to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

'Born of water' figuratively speaking, is talking of water breaking, and refers to the breaking of the amniotic sac, which surrounds the baby and where the sac, contains amniotic fluid.

When this fluid in pregnant women's wombs, that surrounds a baby, passes and comes out of their bodies, it is indicating that the baby is ready to be born.

So that's exactly what born of water means. Birth. It doesnt mean, as you claim, baptized in water, because of the fact that, the baby in the first place, isnt or wasn't dipped into water

Nicodemus and Jesus are talking of births here. Nicodemus was talking of actual physical birth, while Jesus went beyond and above, to talk of not just only definite physical birth alone but also of actual spiritual birth as well too

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

I think something is wrong with you and your theology.

MaxInDHouse:
OP that's the man's PERSONAL opinion, what of yours?

Of all people preaching the 'gospel' the OP's pastor's theology is weird. His 'special revelations' and his followers are the same.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Tim.4.3

MightySparrow:
I think something is wrong with you and your theology.

Some posters will try to find something wrong (i.e. a fantom) with you because they cant handle what is right with you and your theology

My piece of advice, explain, specifically, how you mean 'I think something is wrong with you and your theology', or alternatively, try clear the phantoms from your head, then after, grasp fact(s), truth(s) and realities

If you feel that something is wrong, don't be afraid to speak up and say, all what you feel, is wrong. Of course, better remain silent, better not even think, if you are afraid to speak up.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
Some posters will try to find something wrong (i.e. a fantom) with you because they cant handle what is right with you and your theology

My piece of advice, explain, specifically, how you mean 'I think something is wrong with you and your theology', or alternatively, try clear the phantoms from your head, then after, grasp fact(s), truth(s) and realities

If you feel that something is wrong, don't be afraid to speak up and say, all what you feel, is wrong. Of course, better remain silent, better not even think, if you are afraid to speak up.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

I have been following kobojunkie's posts, it is weird. It doesn't follow any reasonable line of thought ranging from personal advice to scriptural interpretation.
It's like crazy!

On the issue of Pastor Abel S'amọna. He is entitled to his opinion. Only that it is toxic.

Kobojunkie:
If you did depend on what is written, you would accept that the ritual of baptism is a pivotal part of the process for all those who wish to repent — abandon the Old Way(Law of Moses) to embrace instead the New Way(The New agreement, Jesus Christ). But you don't seem to accept that at all.

Yeah and Paul says Christ didn't send him to baptize, but you'll say don't talk about Paul as if his writings are from a different book than the Bible.

Only you know what you are all about.

MightySparrow:
I have been following kobojunkie's posts, it is weird. It doesn't follow any reasonable line of thought ranging from personal advice to scriptural interpretation.
It's like crazy!

kobojunkie, is infamous for badly finessing the art of being truculent.
Its that bad, that he easily would start to argue in an empty room
Yeah, even wouldnt mind arguing with himself, in order to win an argument.

MightySparrow:
On the issue of Pastor Abel S'amọna. He is entitled to his opinion. Only that it is toxic.

Abel Damina, is nothing other than a sensationalist, who gets hard ons from presenting biblical narratives, in ways, intended to incite excitement, albeit, excitement at the expense and death of facts, truth, accuracies and realities

For a weird reason, I actually thought the ' 'I think something is wrong with you and your theology'' comment was addressed to me

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

safarifarms:

Yeah and Paul says Christ didn't send him to baptize, but you'll say don't talk about Paul as if his writings are from a different book than the Bible.

Only you know what you are all about.

First, what I said is let's understand God's Word before you exploring the views of his apostles, second, I don't believe Paul in fact said what you claim at all. But by understanding his master, you can then understand the servant. The servant is never greater than the master. The words of the servant are meant to be validated against the Words of His master, is this not right? So telling me, "But Paul said...", over and over amounts to asserting the servant is greater than his master? Is that your belief instead?

safarifarms:
■ If we have to go by exact words. Then Jesus didn't say here that you must be baptized. He said you should be born of water. Go figure. As per your style of pushing ideas. That make reference to any other portion of the bible. What he said is to be born of water and Spirit, nothing more nothing less.
■ It's unfortunate that you decided that other parts of the Bible can't be quoted except it's statements made by Jesus which is on it's on a Falacy. If we should only select statements of Jesus for interpreting the Bible then how would you even proof that Jesus is the Messiah? Would it be by his own statements only? The Bible is one continous documentation about Jesus Christ and the and proper understanding of the bible lies in the whole, not in parts.
■ You are good at seeing things not making sense yet you see sense in Jesus promising someone the grave which is the default destination of dead bodies. Wow. Wonderful sense indeed.
■From this stand point of yours you are clearly not ready to dissect the truth.John 5:39 King James Bible Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus himself admonished that we should search the scriptures that they testify of him. Were the scripture that Jesus gave credence to written by Jesus? Or were they completely comprising of Jesus' statements?As if the Gospels were written by Jesus and were not eye witness accounts of men.

1. Indeed! Jesus Christ did say one must be born of water, and so how do we figure out what it means to be born of water knowing that it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit as you claim and it certainly has nothing to do with the physical birth which Jesus Christ previously explained it isn't?

2. Your claim is Wrong! Jesus Christ said the servant is never as great or greater than His master, so it is confusing to attempt to use the servant to explain the master here when the Law says we are all of us to submit to and obey the teachings and the commandments of the master. So, whatever the servant says, if it does not align with what is decreed by the Master, it is false. This is what Jesus Christ Himself taught, hence the reason why I always stick with gaining an understanding of the Master's message before I go exploring the views of the servant.

3. Let's examine the facts then. Below is Jesus Christ's very own statement regarding where He would be for 3 straight days.

39 Jesus answered, “Evil and sinful people are the ones who want to see a miracle as a sign. But no miracle will be done to prove anything to them. The only sign will be the miracle that happened to the prophet Jonah.[a]
40 Jonah was in the stomach of the big fish for three days and three nights. In the same way, the Son of Man will be in the grave three days and three nights.
41 On the judgment day, you people who live now will be compared with the people from Nineveh, and they will be witnesses who show how guilty you are. Why do I say this? Because when Jonah preached to those people, they changed their lives. And you are listening to someone greater than Jonah, but you refuse to change! - Matthew 12 vs 39 - 41

And below is the passage revealing the promise Jesus Christ made to the thief on the cross.

39 One of the criminals hanging there began to shout insults at Jesus: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Then save yourself, and save us too!”
40 But the other criminal stopped him. He said, “You should fear God. All of us will die soon.
41 You and I are guilty. We deserve to die because we did wrong. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you begin ruling as king!”
43 Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.” - Luke 23 vs 39 - 43

Recall, at this point that Jesus Christ had previously said the following to His disciples, whom He had promised Heaven.

1. “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.” - John 14 vs 1 - 4

So, do you still think that the thief on the cross is in Heaven at this time?

4. Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, so if Truth is really what you seek, then you would focus on Jesus Christ. Jesus preached from that which He took from the Law and the Prophets —not Paul—to you. Therefore, what you are to search through in trying to understand Jesus Christ is found in the Law and the Prophets.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.
49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” - Luke 24 vs 44 - 49

The epistles written by the apostles contain less than 80% of the information contained in the Gospel teachings of Jesus Christ, and the views they shared in those letters are their personal digests of the teachings presented to them by their Master, and so it behooves one to understand the Master before going off to explore the opinions of His servants.

NNTR:
kobojunkie, is infamous for badly finessing the art of being truculent.
Its that bad, that he easily would start to argue in an empty room
Yeah, even wouldnt mind arguing with himself, in order to win an argument.

Abel Damina, is nothing other than a sensationalist, who gets hard ons from presenting biblical narratives, in ways, intended to incite excitement, albeit, excitement at the expense and death of facts, truth, accuracies and realities

For a weird reason, I actually thought the ' 'I think something is wrong with you and your theology'' comment was addressed to me

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

No my brother. I was reacting to kobojunkie' s post.
Kobojunkie is a lady with her spark plugs firing randomly.

MightySparrow:
No my brother. I was reacting to kobojunkie' s post.
Kobojunkie is a lady with her spark plugs firing randomly.

Kobojunkie nine times out of ten is always at sea, be more confused than a goat that strayed from the herd on to an astroturf hence why she's truculent and argues for argue sake

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Kobojunkie:
First, what I said is let's understand God's Word before you exploring the views of his apostles, second, I don't believe Paul in fact said what you claim at all. But by understanding his master, you can then understand the servant. The servant is never greater than the master. The words of the servant are meant to be validated against the Words of His master, is this not right? So telling me, "But Paul said...", over and over amounts to asserting the servant is greater than his master? Is that your belief instead?

Paul didn't counter Jesus. He only gave further information which provides the meaning of what Jesus said.

And if we are to stick to Jesus' words only which were mostly in Parables and metaphors then show me where Jesus said that being born of water means water baptism?

Kobojunkie:
1. Indeed! Jesus Christ did say one must be born of water, and so how do we figure out what it means to be born of water knowing that it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit as you claim and it certainly has nothing to do with the physical birth which Jesus Christ previously explained it isn't?

How do you figure he meant water baptism when he only said born of water?

2. Your claim is Wrong! Jesus Christ said the servant is never as great or greater than His master, so it is confusing to attempt to use the servant to explain the master here when the Law says we are all of us to submit to and obey the teachings and the commandments of the master. So, whatever the servant says, if it does not align with what is decreed by the Master, it is false. This is what Jesus Christ Himself taught, hence the reason why I always stick with gaining an understanding of the Master's message before I go exploring the views of the servant.

The same Jesus said his disciples would do even greater works than he. Does that make them greater than the master?

The same Jesus said he has many things to teach his disciples but that they can't bear them at that time but when the Holy Spirit comes he'll teach/reveal more to them.

And you say those revelations that bring more light to Jesus' teachings should be discarded because they were not from Jesus.

3. Let's examine the facts then. Below is Jesus Christ's very own statement regarding where He would be for 3 straight days.
And below is the passage revealing the promise Jesus Christ made to the thief on the cross.
Recall, at this point that Jesus Christ had previously said the following to His disciples, whom He had promised Heaven.
So, do you still think that the thief on the cross is in Heaven at this time?

You like dwelling on the unessential.

What is the end of that thief? The grave?
Was he saved without water baptism?

4. Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, so if Truth is really what you seek, then you would focus on Jesus Christ. Jesus preached from that which He took from the Law and the Prophets —not Paul—to you. Therefore, what you are to search through in trying to understand Jesus Christ is found in the Law and the Prophets.

The epistles written by the apostles contain less than 80% of the information contained in the Gospel teachings of Jesus Christ, and the views they shared in those letters are their personal digests of the teachings presented to them by their Master, and so it behooves one to understand the Master before going off to explore the opinions of His servants.

Yes explain how you arrived at Jesus' statement to be born of water means water baptism when he didn't say so?

safarifarms:
And if we are to stick to Jesus' words only which were mostly in Parables and metaphors then show me where Jesus said that being born of water means water baptism?

Now we are on the right track.... we seek the prophets for answers to the way, maybe.

safarifarms:
■ How do you figure he meant water baptism when he only said born of water?
■ The same Jesus said his disciples would do even greater works than he. Does that make them greater than the master?
■ The same Jesus said he has many things to teach his disciples but that they can't bear them at that time but when the Holy Spirit comes he'll teach/reveal more to them.
■ And you say those revelations that bring more light to Jesus' teachings should be discarded because they were not from Jesus.
■ You like dwelling on the unessential. What is the end of that thief? The grave? Was he saved without water baptism?
■ Yes explain how you arrived at Jesus' statement to be born of water means water baptism when he didn't say so?

1. Because the same Jesus Christ preach the very same repentance and marking by water that John the Baptist did. The repentance Jesus Christ taught to the people is the same repentance that John the Baptist Himself taught and it isn't a Repentance from sin at all. Rather it is a change from following the Old way of Moses to following the New way and Covenant in the Kingdom of God - Matthew 3 vs 7 - 11 & Mark 1 vs 1 - 8 & Luke 3 vs 1 - 14.

2. Indeed we will do greater work since we are more likely to have way more than 3 years to do the work we are each to do but We will never be greater than the Master, why? Because the Master said We will never be greater than He is. Simple! The Master is God's Truth and His Words are everlasting — unchanging.

3. The same Jesus Christ said the Spirit of Truth was subject to Him meaning He would never give that which contravenes or contradicts Jesus Christ in any way. And given that Jesus Christ concluded all that was necessary to usher in the Kingdom of God by His death, and resurrection — the details of the Constitutional Law in the Kingdom of God equally ratified —it means the Spirit of Truth is eternally bound to the Law that is Jesus Christ.

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a. The Father will send the Spirit of Truth aka the Helper in the Name of Jesus Christ to those who live their lives in submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ.
b. Those who live in the world cannot receive or have the Spirit of Truth because do not have the ability to see or perceive Him in their lack of knowledge(KNOWING) of the Truth of God, Jesus Christ.
c. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will teach the followers of Jesus Christ all things and bring to their remembrance all that Jesus Christ has taught.
d. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will bear witness about Jesus Christ to each of Jesus's own followers.
e. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will convict those who are in the world regarding sin, righteousness, and judgment.
f. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will guide each one of Jesus Christ's followers into all Truth for He will only speak of that which He hears of Jesus Christ and declare that which is to come concerning Jesus Christ(and His Kingdom)
g. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will glorify Jesus Christ, for He will take what belongs to Jesus Christ to declare to each of His followers
h. All that the Father has belongs to Jesus Christ and as such the Helper will teach to Jesus Christ's followers only that which is of Jesus Christ.

---

4. You are the one who assumes they "bring more light" when in fact the Light you are meant to seek and focus on is Jesus Christ Himself — His Gospel is the Law and Truth of God in the Kingdom of God, as revealed by even the Law and the Prophets.

5. Since you claim to dwell on the essentials, you shouldn't have a problem pointing out the exact portion of the conversation where Jesus Christ emphatically proclaimed to the thief that he was saved from his sins. I wait to see it!

6. Well, I arrived at it by putting together all I have so far on the New Covenant and God's Nation of Priests promised by God through the Prophets. Did you yourself not state earlier that when the Israelites passed the Red Sea they were baptized into God's agreement which turned out the National Constitution of the Nation of Israel in the Land of Canaan? God equally said, of His New Agreement with the House of Israel the following.

22 So tell the family of Israel that this is what the Lord God says: ‘Family of Israel, you ruined my holy name in the places where you went. I am going to do something to stop this. I will not do it for your sake, Israel. I will do it for my holy name.
23 I will show the nations how holy my great name really is. You ruined my good name in those nations! But I will show you that I am holy. I will make you respect my name, and then those nations will know that I am the Lord.’” This is what the Lord God said.
24 “I will take you out of those nations, gather you together, and bring you back to your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.
26 I will also put a new spirit in you to change your way of thinking. I will take out the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender, human heart. - Ezekiel 36 vs 22-26

God did say He was going to baptize them using water in order to make them pure from their old ways. And when Jesus Christ arrived, Jesus Christ preached the very same "Preparation of the Way" message that John, the Baptists preached and baptized the people of Israel with in order that they might receive the New Way.

Thanks to Dr. Abel Damina for corroborating what we’ve been teaching.

You've kept bringing in new dimensions while avoiding to discuss by your own terms.

1. Following your example, you shouldn't have a problem pointing out the exact portion of the conversation where Jesus Christ emphatically proclaimed that born by water meant water baptism.

2. John himself said the purpose of his baptism was to Identify Christ.
John 1: 31
31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

And he even added that the one who is to come (Christ) would baptize them with the Holy Spirit.
So John baptized with water to identify Christ and pointed out that he (Christ) would instead baptize them with the Holy Spirit.

3. Besides you carefully selecting some of my point to make your counter and dodging some, you also miss the whole idea or message in the Bible portions I quote. In Paul's Corinthian epistle that it now pleases you to mention, do you realize that the message was that the Baptism into Moses didn't save the Isrealites?

There are two "sacraments" in view: baptism and the bread & cup. Paul indicates that the Israelites coming from Egypt were "baptized" and subsequently ate the manna (bread) and spiritual drink (cup). However, they did not enter the Promised Land notwithstanding that they had partaken of both baptism and the bread & cup). Paul is therefore drawing an analogy to the Hebrew Bible that sacraments do not save, and that believers therefore should not assume or take their faith for granted.

1 Cor 10
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Moreover, that Baptism mentioned here was never said to be immersion in water(aka water baptism). Otherwise would you also say they were immersed in the clouds?Maybe cloud baptism?

Acts 10:44
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Before you say this one was the opinion of Peter, this is clearly an eye witness account of what transpired. It was in the midst of teaching which must have resulted in they believe in the teaching (having faith) that got the Holy Ghost to fall on them.

And going back to the Corinthian account,

Acts 19
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

In this response, does it mean that the water baptism that John did was different from the water baptism that the early apostles were initially doing? Why the identification of the type of baptism being associated with John? Is it not about the message/teaching involved.

Look at Paul's explanation in the follow up?
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Well at this point I'll have to leave you to your doctrine. I have other things to attend to.

Have a nice day.

Kobojunkie:
1. Because the same Jesus Christ preach the very same repentance and marking by water that John the Baptist did. The repentance Jesus Christ taught to the people is the same repentance that John the Baptist Himself taught and it isn't a Repentance from sin at all. Rather it is a change from following the Old way of Moses to following the New way and Covenant in the Kingdom of God - Matthew 3 vs 7 - 11 & Mark 1 vs 1 - 8 & Luke 3 vs 1 - 14.

2. Indeed we will do greater work since we are more likely to have way more than 3 years to do the work we are each to do but We will never be greater than the Master, why? Because the Master said We will never be greater than He is. Simple! The Master is God's Truth and His Words are everlasting — unchanging.

3. The same Jesus Christ said the Spirit of Truth was subject to Him meaning He would never give that which contravenes or contradicts Jesus Christ in any way. And given that Jesus Christ concluded all that was necessary to usher in the Kingdom of God by His death, and resurrection — the details of the Constitutional Law in the Kingdom of God equally ratified —it means the Spirit of Truth is eternally bound to the Law that is Jesus Christ.

---

a. The Father will send the Spirit of Truth aka the Helper in the Name of Jesus Christ to those who live their lives in submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ.
b. Those who live in the world cannot receive or have the Spirit of Truth because do not have the ability to see or perceive Him in their lack of knowledge(KNOWING) of the Truth of God, Jesus Christ.
c. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will teach the followers of Jesus Christ all things and bring to their remembrance all that Jesus Christ has taught.
d. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will bear witness about Jesus Christ to each of Jesus's own followers.
e. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will convict those who are in the world regarding sin, righteousness, and judgment.
f. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will guide each one of Jesus Christ's followers into all Truth for He will only speak of that which He hears of Jesus Christ and declare that which is to come concerning Jesus Christ(and His Kingdom)
g. The Helper, the Spirit of Truth, will glorify Jesus Christ, for He will take what belongs to Jesus Christ to declare to each of His followers
h. All that the Father has belongs to Jesus Christ and as such the Helper will teach to Jesus Christ's followers only that which is of Jesus Christ.

---

4. You are the one who assumes they "bring more light" when in fact the Light you are meant to seek and focus on is Jesus Christ Himself — His Gospel is the Law and Truth of God in the Kingdom of God, as revealed by even the Law and the Prophets.

5. Since you claim to dwell on the essentials, you shouldn't have a problem pointing out the exact portion of the conversation where Jesus Christ emphatically proclaimed to the thief that he was saved from his sins. I wait to see it!

6. Well, I arrived at it by putting together all I have so far on the New Covenant and God's Nation of Priests promised by God through the Prophets. Did you yourself not state earlier that when the Israelites passed the Red Sea they were baptized into God's agreement which turned out the National Constitution of the Nation of Israel in the Land of Canaan? God equally said, of His New Agreement with the House of Israel the following.
God did say He was going to baptize them using water in order to make them pure from their old ways. And when Jesus Christ arrived, Jesus Christ preached the very same "Preparation of the Way" message that John, the Baptists preached and baptized the people of Israel with in order that they might receive the New Way.

safarifarms:
■ You've kept bringing in new dimensions while avoiding to discuss by your own terms. Following your example, you shouldn't have a problem pointing out the exact portion of the conversation where Jesus Christ emphatically proclaimed that born by water meant water baptism. And he even added that the one who is to come (Christ) would baptize them with the Holy Spirit. So John baptized with water to identify Christ and pointed out that he (Christ) would instead baptize them with the Holy Spirit.
■ John himself said the purpose of his baptism was to Identify Christ.
John 1: 31
31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

1. I already explained that the reason why I believe born of water has to do with water baptism
■ When Jesus Christ came, He began by preaching the very same repentance message that John taught and is also recorded to have had his disciples baptize individuals as well. And as followers of Jesus Christ, we are meant to follow all of Jesus Christ's teachings and commandments, not some of them.
■ John, the Baptist, when he explained the need for baptism to the people, indicated that it served as a mark to symbolize their abandoning of the Old Law in order to follow instead the New Law. This explanation is found in Matthew 3 vs 7 - 11 & Mark 1 vs 1 - 8 & Luke 3 vs 1 - 14.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” - Matthew 3 vs 7 - 12

According to John, his baptism was for repentance. However, John never said that the baptism that Jesus Christ would bless the people would also be for the purpose of repentance. Clearly, John never indicated by his statement that Jesus Christ would do away with his baptism which clearly serves a purpose other than that which Jesus Christ explained the Holy Spirit is meant for. What that means is both the baptism of John and the baptism of Holy Spirit which Jesus Christ Himself brought are part of teachings regarding the Kingdom of God
■ God Himself mentioned that in His new agreement, he would sprinkle water on the people as you clearly see in Ezekiel 36 vs 22 - 26.

2. But Jesus Christ was revealed to Israel when the Spirit of God showed up at His baptism. And even after that, Jesus Christ took up and continued the same repentance message that John had handed over to Him. So, why do you assume we are to do away with John when repentance is still a message to this day?

Righteousness2:
The things of GOD are not calculated or Permutated by mere Human understanding or Philosophies.

We Simply obey and Follow GOD'S Word rather than try to use our mere Human understanding to say this or that.

Listen! JESUS Christ is not coming for a Church of Grammarians and Philisophers.
JESUS Christ is Coming for the Church that is Obey and Follow HIS Words .

Water Baptism is Scriptural, Biblical and Important for one who has a Genuie relationship with JESUS Christ.

Eternity is too Serious to be joked with.
Run out from any place that is stylishly or Directly modifying or adulterating the Word of GOD, no matter his title or how Sophisticated.

Shut up!

Goshen360:
■ The problem is, when you see the word baptism or baptize your mind had been trapped to think it's automatically WATER. Go and study the meaning of the word baptism or baptize and apply to every context and you will see most verses you quoted it does say WATER....it's your mind that's seeing water. Even Romans you quoted doesn't say you're baptized INTO WATER.....read again with open mind

I am afraid that is a terrible error as you cannot and should not apply the same meaning to the use of the word in every context. For instance, John the Baptist gave in Matthew 3 vs 7 - 11 a definition to the word "Baptism", and this baptism he said was onto repentance. Even the meaning of repentance which he gave significantly differs from what the meaning bellowed from pulpits around the world. So, when you ignore John's own concept to adopt instead a general idea, you lose the meaning of the message that was put forward by John and eventually carried forward by Jesus Christ who came proclaiming the same message of repentance that John before He taught.

safarifarms:
You've kept bringing in new dimensions while avoiding to discuss by your own terms.
1. Following your example, you shouldn't have a problem pointing out the exact portion of the conversation where Jesus Christ emphatically proclaimed that born by water meant water baptism.

2. John himself said the purpose of his baptism was to Identify Christ.
John 1: 31
31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

And he even added that the one who is to come (Christ) would baptize them with the Holy Spirit.
So John baptized with water to identify Christ and pointed out that he (Christ) would instead baptize them with the Holy Spirit.

In my previous responses regarding what it means to be Born of Water, I was only able to use the understanding which I had and that was in order that I could have more understanding given to me — Matthew 13 vs 10 - 12 & Matthew 25 vs 29 & Mark 4 vs 22 - 30. And yes, I finally have the understanding downloaded to me by HIm.


□ To be Born of Water means to submit to the Baptism of Repentance which was first preached by John the Baptist but then reaffirmed by Jesus Christ. According to John the Baptist, the Baptism of Repentance mandates abandoning the Old Law of Moses and nation — and the old man who lived under the stipulations of the Old Law — to embrace instead life and living under God’s New Law and Nation of Priests — becoming a new man whose life is lived under the stipulations of the New Law.

Just as the Old Law was the Fountain of Living Waters for those who lived under it, so also the New Law becomes the New Fountain of Living Waters which those who are born of it are to quench their thirsts from hence Born of Water. What the baptism of repentance also means is that one is no longer to venture back to the Old Law in search of rules to live by. This baptism is marked by the washing of one with water to mark the end of the Old and the beginning of the New. And it is not how it is done that is of importance but rather the reasoning behind the ritual that matters.