Dtruthspeaker:


Madman is asking about evidence, wey my stick!

Maybe it was a mad man that actually fathered Jesus. We knows

Workch:
Maybe it was a mad man that actually fathered Jesus. We knows

Madman's performance continues, yay! . And you are not yet 30 o, yet you are a Frustrated boy.

The only way out of this your loong miserable life is if you off yourself!

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO PROVOKE GOD INTO LETTING YOU DIE.

Your Suicide by God will not work!

Did you not hear that they shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us;". Luke 23:30

(ANOTHER PROPHECY FULFILLED)

But it shall not happen.

YOUR PLAN WILL NOT WORK! hahaha

GOD IS NOT HEARING AT ALL!

You are gonna wither and die very very slowly like a man left in the middle of the Sahara desert with no compass or clothes.

Only one way out, SUICIDE!

SHALOM!

Workch:
I mean, it’s possible she probably fornicated and had Jesus out of wedlock. To cover it, she cooked up the story of Holy Spirit.
And now no one knows the actual father of Jesus, Joseph was compelled to accept the bastard into his family because he loved Mary so much.

Na so religion take start o, A possible Bastard that might have been fathered by king Herod became a deity because his mother lied.

To be sincere, this story is more plausible that the Holy Spirit nonsense.

Dtruthspeaker, what do you have to say?

THE BIBLE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO CONVINCE UNBELIEVERS, BUT TO GUIDE BELIEVERS.

A Hebrew Y'sraelite was to be trained in The Way of God by their parents, who were supposed to teach them to acquire THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD between the ages of 13 through 20.

. GENESIS 17:24-27.

24. And Abraham was ninety years old and nine,
when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old,
when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised,
and Ishmael his son.
27. And all the men of his house,
born in the house,
and bought with money of the stranger,
were circumcised with him.

. NUMBERS 1:1-3.

AND The LORD Spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai,
in the Tabernacle of the Congregation,
on the first day of the second month,
in the second year after they were come
out of the land of Egypt,
Saying,

2. “Take ye the sum of all the Congregation
of the Children of Israel,
after their families,
by the House of their Fathers,
with the number of their names,
every male by their polls;
3. “From twenty years old and upward,
all that are able to go forth to war in Israel:
thou and Aaron shall number them
by their armies.”

. NUMBERS 14:28-29.

28. “Say unto them,

‘‘As truly as I live,’

Saith The LORD,

‘as ye have spoken
in mine ears,
so will I do to you:’

29. “Your carcases
shall fall in this wilderness;
and all that were numbered of you,
according to your whole number,
from twenty years old and upward
which have murmured against Me.”

. DEUTERONOMY 6:1-9.

NOW these are the Commandments,
the Statutes, and the Judgments,
Which The LORD your God Commanded to teach you,
that ye might do Them in the land
whither ye go to possess it:
2. That thou mightest fear The LORD thy God,
to keep all his Statutes and His Commandments,
Which I command thee,
thou, and thy son, and thy son's son,
all the days of thy life;
and that thy days may be prolonged.
3. Hear therefore, O Israel,
and observe to do It;
that it may be well with thee,
and that ye may increase mightily,
as The LORD God of thy Fathers hath Promised thee,
in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4. Hear, O Israel:
The LORD our God is one LORD:
5. And thou shalt love The LORD thy God
with all thine Heart,
and with all thy Soul,
and with all thy Might.
6. And these Words,
which I Command thee this Day,
shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach Them diligently
unto thy Children,
and shalt talk of Them
when thou sittest in thine house,
and when thou walkest by the way,
and when thou liest down,
and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them
for a sign upon thine hand,
and they shall be as frontlets
between thine eyes.
9. And thou shalt write them
upon the posts of thy house,
and on thy gates.

. PSALM 111:10.

10. The Fear of The LORD
is The Beginning of Wisdom:
a Good Understanding have all they
that do (His Commandments):
His Praise endureth for ever.

[color=silver.[/color] PSALM 119:97-105.

97. O how I love Thy Law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98. Thou through Thy Commandments
hast made me Wiser than mine enemies:
for They are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for Thy Testimonies are my meditation.
100. I understand more than the Ancients,
because I keep Thy Precepts.
101. I have refrained my feet
from every Evil Way,
that I might keep Thy Word.
102. I have not departed from Thy Judgments:
for Thou hast taught me.
103. How sweet are Thy Words unto my taste!
yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104. Through Thy Precepts I get Understanding:
therefore I hate every False Way.
105. Thy Word is a Lamp unto my feet,
and a Light unto my path.

. 2^nd CHRONICLES 16:9.

9. "For The Eyes of The LORD
run to and fro throughout the whole Earth,
to shew Himself strong in the behalf of them
whose heart is perfect toward Him.
Herein thou hast done foolishly:
therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars."

. AMOS 3:1-3.

HEAR This Word that The LORD
hath spoken against you,
O children of Israel,
against the whole family
which I brought up
from the land of Egypt,
saying,

2. “YOU ONLY HAVE I KNOWN
OF ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH:
THEREFORE I WILL PUNISH YOU
FOR ALL YOUR INIQUITIES.
3. "CAN TWO WALK TOGETHER,
EXCEPT THEY BE AGREED?"

. ZECHARIAH 4:10.

10. For who hath despised
the Day of small things?
For they shall rejoice,
and shall see the plummet
in the hand of Zerubbabel with Those Seven;
They are The Eyes of The LORD,
Which run to and fro
through the whole Earth.

. REVELATION 4:5.

5. And out of The Throne
proceeded Lightnings and Thunderings
and Voices:
and there were seven Lamps of Fire
burning before The Throne,
Which are The Seven Spirits of God.

. REVELATION 5:6.

6. And I beheld,
and, lo,
in the midst of the Throne
and of the four Beasts
and in the midst of the Elders,
stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
having seven Horns and seven Eyes,
Which are The Seven Spirits of God
sent forth into all the Earth.

THE CHILDREN ARE REQUIRED TO ATTAIN TOTAL UNDERSTANDING ON SEVEN DIFFERENT LEVELS, IN WHICH THEY WILL ACQUIRE A SENTIENT, SELF-AWARE IMPRINT OF THE PERSONALITY OF GOD- THAT IS, THE SPIRITS OF GOD- EACH WILL TAKE A YEAR TO OBTAIN.[/u]

FAILURE is marked by the inability to resist all Sin.

. NUMBERS 15:27-31.

27. "And if any soul Sin through ignorance,
then he shall bring a she goat of the first year
for a Sin Offering.
28. "And the Priest shall make an Atonement
for the Soul that Sinneth Ignorantly,
when he Sinneth by Ignorance before The LORD,
to make an Atonement for him;
and it shall be forgiven him.
29. "Ye shall have One Law for him
that Sinneth through Ignorance,
both for him that is born
among The Children of Israel,
and for the Stranger that sojourneth
among them.
30. "But the Soul that doeth ought presumptuously,
whether he be born in the Land,
or a Stranger,
the same reproacheth The LORD;
and that Soul shall be cut off
from among his people.
31. "Because he hath despised
The Word of The LORD,
and hath broken His Commandment,
that Soul shall utterly be cut off;
his Iniquity shall be upon him."

THOSE WHO HAVE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD CANNOT SIN.

Those Children of Y'srael who fail to obtain The Seven Spirits of God were to be disposed-of.

. DEUTERONOMY 21:18-21.

18. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son,
which will not obey the voice of his father,
or the voice of his mother,
and that, when they have chastened him,
will not hearken unto them:
19. Then shall his father and his mother
lay hold on him,
and bring him out unto the Elders of his city,
and unto the Gate of his place;
20. And they shall say unto the Elders of his city,

"This our son
is stubborn and rebellious,
he will not obey our voice;
he is a glutton,
and a drunkard."

21. And all the men of his city
shall stone him with stones, that he die:
so shalt thou put evil away from among you;
and all Israel shall hear,
and fear.

. EXODUS 21:1-11.

"NOW these are the Judgments
which thou shalt set before them.
2. "If thou buy an Hebrew servant,
six years he shall serve:
and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3. "If he came in by himself,
he shall go out by himself:
if he were married,
then his wife shall go out with him.
4. "If his master have given him a wife,
and she have born him sons or daughters;
the wife and her children shall be her master's,
and he shall go out by himself.
5. "And if the servant shall plainly say,

'I love my master,
my wife, and my children;
I will not go out free:'

6." Then his master shall bring him
unto the judges;
he shall also bring him to the door,
or unto the door post;
and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul;
and he shall serve him for ever.
7. "And if a man sell his daughter
to be a maidservant,
she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8. "If she please not her master,
who hath betrothed her to himself,
then shall he let her be redeemed:
to sell her unto a strange nation
he shall have no power,
seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9. "And if he have betrothed her unto his son,
he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10. "If he take him another wife;
her food, her raiment,
and her duty of marriage,
shall he not diminish.
11. "And if he do not these three unto her,
then shall she go out free without money."


THE BOYS WERE TO BE SUMMARILY EXECUTED- BUT THE GIRLS COULD BE SOLD INTO SLAVERY, OR MARRIED-OFF.

This is the background MARY was raised under.

. LUKE 1:26-38.

26. And in the sixth month
the Angel Gabriel was sent from God
unto a city of Galilee,
named Nazareth,
27. To a virgin espoused to a man
whose name was Joseph,
of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28. And the Angel came in unto her,
and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured,
The LORD is with thee:
Blessed art thou among women."

29. And when she saw him,
she was troubled at his saying,
and cast in her mind
what manner of salutation this should be.
30. And the Angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary:
for thou hast found favour with God.
31. "And, behold,
thou shalt conceive in thy womb,
and bring forth a son,
and shalt call his name JESUS.
32. "He shall be great,
and shall be called the Son of the Highest:
and the Lord God shall give unto him
The Throne of his father David:
33. "And he shall reign over the House of Jacob for ever;
and of His Kingdom there shall be no End."

34. Then said Mary unto the Angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35. And the Angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and The Power of The Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee
shall be called The Son of God.
36. "And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth,
she hath also conceived a son in her old age:
and this is the sixth month with her,
who was called barren.
37. "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

38. And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord;
be it unto me according to thy word."

And the Angel departed from her.

IT WAS A GREAT HONOUR FOR MARY TO BE THE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD.

Wicked people Blaspheme God, sneering that "God impregnated a Man's wife."

. GENESIS 17:1-14.

AND when Abram was ninety years old and nine,
The LORD appeared unto Abram,
and Said unto him,

"I am The Almighty God;
walk before Me,
and be thou perfect.
2. "And I will make My Covenant
between Me and thee,
and will multiply thee exceedingly."

3. And Abram fell on his face:
and God Talked with him,
Saying,

4. "As for Me,
behold, My Covenant is with thee,
and thou shalt be
a father of many nations.
5. "Neither shall thy name
any more be called 'Abram,'
but thy name shall be 'Abraham;'
for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6. "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful,
and I will make nations of thee,
and kings shall come out of thee.
7. "And I will establish My Covenant
between Me and thee
and thy seed after thee in their generations
for an Everlasting Covenant,
to be a God unto thee,
and to thy seed after thee.
8. "And I will give unto thee,
and to thy seed after thee,
the land wherein thou art a stranger,
all the land of Canaan,
for an Everlasting Possession;
and I will be their God.”

9. And God Said unto Abraham,

" Thou shalt keep My Covenant therefore,
thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10. "This is My Covenant,
which ye shall keep,
between Me and you and thy seed after thee;

'EVERY MAN CHILD AMONG YOU
SHALL BE CIRCUMCISED.'

11. "And ye shall circumcise
the flesh of your foreskin;
and it shall be a Token of The Covenant
betwixt Me and you.
12. "And he that is eight days old
shall be circumcised among you
every man child in your generations,
he that is born in the house,
or bought with money of any stranger,
which is not of thy seed.
13. "He that is born in thy house,
and he that is bought with thy money,
must needs be circumcised:
and My Covenant shall be in your flesh
for an Everlasting Covenant.
14. "And the uncircumcised man child
whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised,
that soul shall be cut off from his people;
he hath broken My Covenant."

THE NATION OF Y'SRAEL ONLY EXISTED BECAUSE GOD MADE A BARREN NONAGENARIAN ABLE TO CONCEIVE.

As The God of her offspring, He had the Right to do anything to any of them that He deemed fit.

Furthermore, nothing can conceive without God's Consent.

. GENESIS 20:17-18.

17. So Abraham prayed unto God:
and God healed Abimelech, and his wife,
and his maidservants; and they bare children.
18. “For The LORD had fast closed up
all the wombs of the House of Abimelech,
because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

THEREFORE, NO OFFSPRING CAN BE CONCEIVED WITHOUT GOD, AND WITH MARY, GOD PROVED THAT HE DOES NOT NEED MEN.


. MATTHEW 1:18-25.

18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:
When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,
before they came together,
she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man,
and not willing to make her a publick example,
was minded to put her away privily.
20. But while he thought on these things,
behold, the Angel of the LORD
appeared unto him in a Dream,
Saying,

"Joseph, thou son of David,
fear not to take unto thee
Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her
is of The Holy Ghost.
21. "And she shall bring forth a son,
and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins."

22. Now all this was done,
that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord
by the Prophet,
saying,

23. "Behold,
a virgin shall be with child,
and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name
"Emmanuel," "

which being interpreted is, God with us.
24. Then Joseph being raised from sleep
did as the Angel of the LORD had bidden him,
and took unto him his wife:
25. And knew her not
till she had brought forth her firstborn son:
and he called his name JESUS.


NOTE THAT MARY WAS NOT ABLE TO CONVINCE YOSEF THAT HER ISSUE WAS BY THE HOLY GHOST: GOD TOLD HIM PERSONALLY- NO ONE ELSE AROUND WAS TOLD THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING SPECIAL ABOUT YESHUA.

The reason being that both Yosef and Mary would have been summarily executed, along with Lord Yeshua, charged with Blasphemy.

. DEUTERONOMY 23:2.

2. A (*Bleep!*)ard shall not enter
into The Congregation of the LORD;
even to his tenth generation
shall he not enter into
The Congregation of The LORD.

FOR MARY TO LIE ABOUT THE LEGITIMACY OF HER SON, YESHUA, WOULD MEAN DESCERATING THEIR SYNAGOGUES AND TEMPLE.

There is a TALMUDIC slander against Lord Yeshua, in which it is claimed that a Rabbi extracted a confession from Mary, under promise of immunity, saying that her son, Lord Yeshua was the illegitimate offspring of a Roman Soldier (PANTERA).

. LUKE 2:41-52.[/

41. Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year
at the Feast of the Passover.
42. And when he was twelve years old,
they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the Feast.
43. And when they had fulfilled the days,
as they returned,
the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem;
and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44. But they,
supposing him to have been in the company,
went a day's journey; and they sought him
among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45. And when they found him not,
they turned back again to Jerusalem,
seeking him.
46. And it came to pass,
that after three days
they found him in the Temple,
sitting in the midst of the doctors,
both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47. And all that heard him were astonished
at his understanding and answers.
48. And when they saw him,
they were amazed:
and his mother said unto him,

"Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us?
behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing."

49. And he Said unto them,

"How is it that ye sought me?
wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"

50. And they understood not the Saying
which he Spake unto them.
51. And he went down with them,
and came to Nazareth,

THE PANTERA THEORY IS UNTENABLE, BECAUSE NO RABBI WOULD HAVE TOLERATED AN ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING DESECRATING THEIR SACRED ASSEMBLIES.

Mary herself should have been more wicked than HERODIAS and SALOME, ashould she allow such a travesty. She would have been executed for such a Sin.

. LUKE 7:19-23.

19. And John calling unto him two
of his Disciples sent them to Jesus,
saying,

"Art thou he that should come?
Or look we for another?"

20. When the men were come unto him,
they said,

"John Baptist hath sent us unto thee,
saying,

'ART THOU HE THAT SHOULD COME?
OR LOOK WE FOR ANOTHER?' "

21. And in that same hour he cured many
of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits;
and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22. Then Jesus Answering
Said unto them,

"Go your way,
and tell John what things
ye have seen and heard;
how that the blind see,
the lame walk,
the lepers are cleansed,
the deaf hear,
the dead are raised,
to the Poor
The Gospel is preached.
23. "And blessed is he,
whosoever shall not be
offended in me."

YOU WANT TO TELL US THAT YAHWEH GOD IGNORED ALL THE LEGITIMATE OFFSPRING IN HIS NATION, Y'SRAEL, AND CHOSE A (*Bleep!*)ARD TO BE THE GREATEST PROPHET THE WORLD WILL EVER SEE?

How will that work?

NO: MARY COULD NEVER HAVE LIED ABOUT THE PATERNITY OF HER SON' YESHUA!

[size=18pt]SHAME ON YOU, FOR DARING TO SUGGESTING IT![/size]

The paternity of Lord Yeshua is irrelevant.

HE never claimed to be Born of a Virgin: he never told anyone to say that he was Born of a Virgin.

ONLY WHAT HE HIMSELF SAYS HAS SAVING-POWER.

We don't have to believe that he was Born of a Virgin in order to be Saved.

Dtruthspeaker:


Madman's performance continues, yay! . And you are not yet 30 o, yet you are a Frustrated boy.

The only way out of this your loong miserable life is if you off yourself!

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO PROVOKE GOD INTO LETTING YOU DIE.

Your Suicide by God will not work!

Did you not hear that they shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us;". Luke 23:30

(ANOTHER PROPHECY FULFILLED)

But it shall not happen.

YOUR PLAN WILL NOT WORK! hahaha

GOD IS NOT HEARING AT ALL!

You are gonna wither and die very very slowly like a man left in the middle of the Sahara desert with no compass or clothes.

Only one way out, SUICIDE!

I will commute suicide an meet our bastard god in heaven abi

Workch:
I will commute suicide an meet our bastard god in heaven abi

Do it or don't do it, The Answer is the Same. ALL ROADS LEAD TO YOUR DESTRUCTION!

And thanking you for coming to show the fulfillment of Luke 23:30.

Dtruthspeaker:


Do it or don't do it, The Answer is the Same. ALL ROADS LEAD TO YOUR DESTRUCTION!

And thanking you for coming to show the fulfillment of Luke 23:30.

So you mean olosho Mary will also make heaven?

Dtruthspeaker:


hahahaha . Is it not a saying whom God wants to destroy He first makes mad?

He suffers from Madmanism!

Loose WORDS against The Holy SPIRIT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN,

Workch:
I mean, it’s possible she probably fornicated and had Jesus out of wedlock. To cover it, she cooked up the story of Holy Spirit.
And now no one knows the actual father of Jesus, Joseph was compelled to accept the bastard into his family because he loved Mary so much.

Na so religion take start o, A possible Bastard that might have been fathered by king Herod became a deity because his mother lied.

To be sincere, this story is more plausible that the Holy Spirit nonsense.

Dtruthspeaker, what do you have to say?

The burden of proof simply tilts towards you to demonstrate how the Bible account can’t be true on this and how a miracle ( incarnate birth) isn’t possible.

Show us please.

Nothingserious:


The burden of proof simply tilts towards you to demonstrate how the Bible account can’t be true on this and how a miracle ( incarnate birth) isn’t possible.

Show us please.

Wont happen until you provide evidence for your own initial claims.
That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

orisa37:


Loose WORDS against The Holy SPIRIT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN,

Loose lips, sink ships souls!

Workch:
Wont happen until you provide evidence for your own initial claims.
That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

So the default position is maintained.

Jesus Christ had incarnate birth.
Jesus Christ came to save mankind from sin.
Jesus Christ was baptized in river Jordan by John the baptist.
Jesus Christ taught about the kingdom of God and showed people the way to God.
Jesus Christ was crucified.
Jesus Christ was buried in a tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea.
Jesus Christ was raised back to life by God.
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven.
Jesus Christ lives in the heart of all believers and helps believers through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Glory hallelujah!

“For I passed on to you first of all what I also had received, that Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for our sins in accordance with [what] the Scriptures [foretold], [Isa. 53:5-12.] That He was buried, that He arose on the third day as the Scriptures foretold, [Ps. 16:9, 10.] And [also] that He appeared to Cephas (Peter), then to the Twelve. Then later He showed Himself to more than five hundred brethren at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, but some have fallen asleep [in death]. Afterward He was seen by James, then by all the apostles (the special messengers), And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one prematurely and born dead [no better than an unperfected fetus among living men].”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-8‬ ‭AMPC‬‬
https://www.bible.com/8/1co.15.3-8.ampc

Workch:
So you mean olosho Mary will also make heaven?

CHANGE OF POST, we are talking about your living in Destruction and Destroyedly Dying!

The bitter truth is that Jesus Christ, Angels, demons, Satan and God doesn't exist,





Know this and have peace of mind.

What's your proof for this if I may ask?

EnemyofGod22:
The bitter truth is that Jesus Christ, Angels, demons, Satan and God doesn't exist,





Know this and have peace of mind.

Dtruthspeaker:


CHANGE OF POST, we are talking about your living in Destruction and Destroyedly Dying!

Have you prayed to the son of olosho today?

Workch:
Have you prayed to the son of olosho today?

If you like insult God all day, the quick death you desire to escape your sufferings and pains will not come, Unless you, kill yourself!.

Right now death is laughing at you!

Dtruthspeaker:


If you like insult God all day, the quick death you desire to escape your sufferings and pains will not come, Unless you, kill yourself!.

Right now death is laughing at you!

Glory to son of olosho, Honor to his mother

Amen

StJohnofChrist:
What's your proof for this if I may ask?

Where's your own prove that a God truly existed ?

Do you believe the bible and what it says?

EnemyofGod22:


Where's your own prove that a God truly existed ?

StJohnofChrist:
Do you believe the bible and what it says?

The Bible is not proof.
It’s a set of claims which you peddle

The reason for asking is because I wanted to show proof of God's existence from it. Since you don't believe it, I'll show you from that which relates to you in the natural(outside the bible).

Workch:
The Bible is not proof.
It’s a set of claims which you peddle

StJohnofChrist:
The reason for asking is because I wanted to show proof of God's existence from it. Since you don't believe it, I'll show you from that which relates to you in the natural(outside the bible).

Hope we can test it and it will perfectly depict that your god exist and not some purposeful tweaking of facts and cherrypicking?