Image123:


Of course, NDEs are not for everyone are they? It is not a BASIC experience for us all to pass through, it is only few that do. What we have proven is that no matter the experience, we do not all have it the same. Even the way you feel when happy or when your favourite hero/team wins is not the same for everyone. It is not even the same level for you every time. This does not in any way invalidate the experience(s).

So what is the criteria for who gets to have an NDE?

LordReed:


Yes material things do combine to give rise to minds.

So you see here is the problem: what then was the purpose of taking me through this rigmarole if you knew this lay at the bottom of your proposition. Because this takes us right back to the implications I pointed out,viz: that you must necessarily imbue cells and neurons with intentionality and that you must also dispense with all precepts of personal responsibility.

You have taken us in a circle, and I am afraid you have been rather unhelpful, and I cannot but wonder why.
Perhaps you are uncertain of what you propose, or you have not properly settled down to consider it carefully and thoroughly.

DeepSight:


So you see here is the problem: what then was the purpose of taking me through this rigmarole if you knew this lay at the bottom of your proposition. Because this takes us right back to the implications I pointed out,viz: that you must necessarily imbue cells and neurons with intentionality and that you must also dispense with all precepts of personal responsibility.

You have taken us in a circle, and I am afraid you have been rather unhelpful, and I cannot but wonder why.
Perhaps you are uncertain of what you propose, or you have not properly settled down to consider it carefully and thoroughly.

There is no rigmarole. You are the one making false conclusions. Material things combining to give rise to mind in no way implies I believe that cells have individual intentionality or that personal responsibility is absolved from the individual. Only you know why you think these things, I have in no way expressed them as my opinion or views.

LordReed:


Good for you! I am waiting for more concrete information.

It's almost irrelevant. Everything concrete you may need from the afterlife is easily seen in the Bible or by God's help.

LordReed:


So what is the criteria for who gets to have an NDE?

No criteria, like i said there's nothing serious to it. It's like asking for criteria of who gets dreams or has sharp premonitions or who gets more hiccups. There's no trophy for it.

LordReed:


There is no rigmarole. You are the one making false conclusions. Material things combining to give rise to mind in no way implies I believe that cells have individual intentionality or that personal responsibility is absolved from the individual. Only you know why you think these things, I have in no way expressed them as my opinion or views.

Perhaps we will have occasion to revisit the implications as I see them: nevertheless even if we put aside the first implication for now, it is very hard to do away with the second implication: because chemicals simply do not have moral agency and it is self-evident that anyone who asserts that all mind arises from matter alone, must equally absolve all persons from personal responsibility; all thoughts and actions being the work of supposed chemical interaction and nothing else.

This is a well established argument against the materialist, and yes, it does emerge from what you say that you are in fact a materialist, materialists do believe in the existence of concepts and ideas as immaterial things - they simply believe that all these are strictly the work or product of material things.

I see that we will not see eye to eye on the issues at play here today, but as I said, perhaps some future occasion may provide a chance to approach the question with a different spin or from a different angle.

DeepSight:


Perhaps we will have occasion to revisit the implications as I see them: nevertheless even if we put aside the first implication for now, it is very hard to do away with the second implication: because chemicals simply do not have moral agency and it is self-evident that anyone who asserts that all mind arises from matter alone, must equally absolve all persons from personal responsibility; all thoughts and actions being the work of supposed chemical interaction and nothing else.

This is a well established argument against the materialist, and yes, it does emerge from what you say that you are in fact a materialist, materialists do believe in the existence of concepts and ideas as immaterial things - they simply believe that all these are strictly the work or product of material things.

I see that we will not see eye to eye on the issues at play here today, but as I said, perhaps some future occasion may provide a chance to approach the question with a different spin or from a different angle.

The argument might work against a hard determinist not necessarily a materialist. I am not a hard determinist so I dunno why you think it works against me. Your conclusion is fallacious because you are extending one property of the individual components to the whole. A human being even though is made of chemicals is however more than the chemicals they are made of. A human being has agency that chemicals don't so to say that because chemicals don't have agency therefore the human has no agency is false.

This also works against your first faulty conclusion in reverse. That a human has agency doesn't sudden imbue his cells with agency.

Look up fallacy of composition.

Image123:


It's almost irrelevant. Everything concrete you may need from the afterlife is easily seen in the Bible or by God's help.

Not good enough.

LordReed:


The argument might work against a hard determinist not necessarily a materialist.

It would work for a hard determinist, not against him.

It works against the materialist who insists on personal responsibility because there is a chicken and egg priblem interlaced there which I am not sure you see: the problem as to at what point the agency of a full human is interlineated in the process of development into one - the supposedly mindless process of combinations of chemicals which results in a human mind. This is a subtle point, and perhaps I will have to break it down later.

LordReed:

This also works against your first faulty conclusion in reverse. That a human has agency doesn't sudden imbue his cells with agency.

Just to be clear, that is not my conclusion: I say that it is the ineluctable conclusion you must arrive at based on your faulty premises.

LordReed:


Look up fallacy of composition.

I am quite aware of the fallacy, which I dont believe applies to what I am trying to convey. Some other time, I might be able to convey it better. Cheers.

Edit: Oh, the hell with it. I doubt I can resist this. I will explain in detail what I am trying to convey . . . sometime soon.

DeepSight:


Just to be clear, that is not my conclusion: I say that it is the ineluctable conclusion you must arrive at based on your faulty premises.

I have no faulty premises by which you are arriving at your faulty conclusions. Man is made up of both material and nonmaterial aspects, that is not in question. How you go from that to these faulty conclusions is known only to you.

I am quite aware of the fallacy, which I dont believe applies to what I am trying to convey. Some other time, I might be able to convey it better. Cheers.

It totally applies. You are taking a property of the whole and saying a part of the whole must have the same property, when it clearly doesn't work that way. It's like saying because water is wet therefore individual H₂O molecules must also be wet, that property doesn't transfer from the whole to the part. To think it does is a fallacy.

LordReed:


Continuing with our analogy, the captain has already assumed the possibility of an attack which is why he sent the scouts in the first place. Now that he still hasn't gotten concrete information is he supposed to just believe an attack is eminent or send another sent of scouts?

Relating this to NDEs would be the equivalent of saying where is the corroborating evidence that an afterlife exists even if we say there is a possibility of an afterlife. There are widely divergent NDEs which do not give credence to any objective afterlife experience. Do we simply say we believe in afterlife or do we say we need more information. In my case I have chosen the latter, I need more information. The information at my disposal does not lead me to conclude that an afterlife exists just like the captain cannot conclude that an attack is eminent.

The question we should ask about NDEs is where the stories are coming from.
1. Are they pure figments of imagination
2. Lies
3. Why do some NDE cases seem to have an out of body experience where they can see things in the hospital they shouldn't see

MaxInDHouse:
Lazarus (Jesus' friend) was dead for four days, he never saw anything! John chpt 11

I don't know how true this story is but the soul is immortal whether you believe it or not. By the way, how do you know he never saw anything? Was Lazarus interviewed as to what he saw when he was dead? Was it everything that was written in the Scriptures. Only those things that were necessary for us to know were written. Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:

God's word says:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun! Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

That's why no resurrected individual in the Bible said anything about what happened anywhere while they're dead because there is no knowledge in the grave! Ecclesiastes 9:10

This is what the Bible teaches so if people are now seeing something different from what God's word says then know that demons are at work! Galatians 1:8

You are so wrong sir. Where you quoted simply means that once a person is physically dead, he knows nothing that happens on earth. Compare that with the true story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16: 19 - 31. In verse 19, Jesus' said "there was a CERTAIN rich man....". In verse 17, Christ said "there was a certain beggar......". Both the sinful but rich man and the poor but righteous Lazarus died and immediately found themselves in another places - hellfire and Abraham's bosom (Paradise). Jesus the truth Personified cannot fabricate a story that is not true to make illustrations. In Luke 23:43, Jesus Christ emphatically promised the repentant thief on the cross "Verily, I say unto thee, TODAY, shalt thou be with me in Paradise". As such, immediately both Christ and the saved thief died, they went to Paradise. Thanks.

FreedomfromtheT:
You are so wrong sir. Where you quoted simply means that once a person is physically dead, he knows nothing that happens on earth. Compare that with the true story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16: 19 - 31. In verse 19, Jesus' said "there was a CERTAIN rich man....". In verse 17, Christ said "there was a certain beggar......". Both the sinful but rich man and the poor but righteous Lazarus died and immediately found themselves in another places - hellfire and Abraham's bosom (Paradise). Jesus the truth Personified cannot fabricate a story that is not true to make illustrations. In Luke 23:43, Jesus Christ emphatically promised the repentant thief on the cross "Verily, I say unto thee, TODAY, shalt thou be with me in Paradise". As such, immediately both Christ and the saved thief died, they went to Paradise. Thanks.

Jesus' promise to the thief is that day not that the thief goes anywhere with Jesus.

Jesus went nowhere for three days he was DEAD in his grave!

FreedomfromtheT:
I don't know how true this story is but the soul is immortal whether you believe it or not. By the way, how do you know he never saw anything? Was Lazarus interviewed as to what he saw when he was dead? Was it everything that was written in the Scriptures. Only those things that were necessary for us to know were written. Thanks.

Apart from Lazarus there were many who died buried and resurrected, none of them said anything about life in the grave!

Irupetepete:
All these are lies..
I was dead for over an hour this year, I saw nothing..
I repeat, you see nothing.
When I woke up, I could have fabricated convincing lies, atleast more than 70 people saw me lying dead..
If I told them I saw things, they will believe and help spread the lies..
So if anybody tells you he died, woke up and saw things, slap sense into their empty heads

Well, I understand. How was your relationship with God before you pass on? Do you remember your dreams before your 20mins death? Because I pass on 2009 and came back to life. What I saw was terrifying. God gave me a second chance. I saw myself in millions of people struggling for a very faint light. Me too were struggling to catch up with the light. I were opportune to return alive, I cried out. My sister was next to me, trying to wake me. God gave me a second chance chance in this sinful world.

Blessedofchrist:
I also once passed out everything was gross darkness for three hours...doctors worked on me till i came back to life,years later when i gave my life to Christ,i can tell you i know what it feels like for someone to die,i was in ikeja going back home instantly it seems as if everything around me has vanished,the peace of Christ was in my heart..it literally seems as if i was walking a golden path to heaven,...so i understand that some people will go to hell and some heaven...some weaks ago,devils came into my room but night and where pulling my spirit out of my body...i was seeing my physical body until a bigger hand pushed me back into my body before i now woke up..

when I was a christian I used to have these types of experiences. It is all in your head, they are not real

LordReed:


The argument might work against a hard determinist not necessarily a materialist. I am not a hard determinist so I dunno why you think it works against me. Your conclusion is fallacious because you are extending one property of the individual components to the whole. A human being even though is made of chemicals is however more than the chemicals they are made of. A human being has agency that chemicals don't so to say that because chemicals don't have agency therefore the human has no agency is false.

This also works against your first faulty conclusion in reverse. That a human has agency doesn't sudden imbue his cells with agency.

Look up fallacy of composition.

u dey try I swear. I wish I can be patient like u

Blessedofchrist:
I also once passed out everything was gross darkness for three hours...doctors worked on me till i came back to life,years later when i gave my life to Christ,i can tell you i know what it feels like for someone to die,i was in ikeja going back home instantly it seems as if everything around me has vanished,the peace of Christ was in my heart..it literally seems as if i was walking a golden path to heaven,...so i understand that some people will go to hell and some heaven...some weaks ago,devils came into my room but night and where pulling my spirit out of my body...i was seeing my physical body until a bigger hand pushed me back into my body before i now woke up..

It will shock you that people from other religion have experienced something similar.

It's just like NDE, even atheists experience it.

Wharever

Karleb:


It will shock you that people from other religion have experienced something similar.

It's just like NDE, even atheists experience it.

Dn't quote me again in ur life...pls

HardMirror:
when I was a christian I used to have these types of experiences. It is all in your head, they are not real

Blessedofchrist:
Wharever

I'm not even arguing for any belief or non-belief system here. If you doubt me, just Google Muslim NDE.

Blessedofchrist:
Dn't quote me again in ur life...pls

do you know this is a public forum. If you dont want to be quoted, dont post

I dn't engage people who do not believe in GOD.,do not transfer the demons that have captured your soul to me

HardMirror:
do you know this is a public forum. If you dont want to be quoted, dont post

HardMirror:
u dey try I swear. I wish I can be patient like u

Easy escapist route, simply congratulate others for their "patience" etc in order to disguise your own incapacity to articulate a meaningful point on the subject under discussion.

LordReed, I have tried to provide my further thoughts, but keep getting banned.
Will try again tomorrow.

- DeepSight
(Banned by spambot again)

InSenze1:


Easy escapist route, simply congratulate others for their "patience" etc in order to disguise your own incapacity to articulate a meaningful point on the subject under discussion.

- DeepSight
(Banned by spambot again)

escape from what?

Blessedofchrist:
I dn't engage people who do not believe in GOD.,do not transfer the demons that have captured your soul to me

lol. Ok

HardMirror:
escape from what?

Summarize the contention, lets see that you understand it.

InSenze1:


Summarize the contention, lets see that you understand it.

you are instructing me as my dad or my school teacher?

You really think this is an intellectual topic? Hehehehe
Keep waiting, I will come and help you dissect the cock and bull tale of the boy who died for 20 minutes. What a joke