₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
First. Triple, everything any of us says is just our opinion based on our experiences or what we've learnt somewhere or been taught or told or made up in our own heads.

Now, I myself have experienced almost dying twice, once when I drank up all the water at the Bar Beach, and another time when 30, 5 milligram valium tablets found a way to jump down my throat.

At both instances were there what many describe as near death experiences, but the clue is clearly in the "near", which implies not exactly dead, and which means brain (and nervous system) activity has not exactly stopped, though I must confess that no one measured how close to death I actually was since they thankfully were more focused on keeping me alive.

triplechoice:
Now the question for you now, BUda, is do you think you know enough to judge correctly that your experiences qualifies for NDE?

Did your experiences match those who have had NDEs based on the criteria used by scientists to determine correctly what is authentic experiences different from dreams or delirium that are mistaken for the real thing?

budaatum:
Dude, you are flipflopping! First you don't trust scientists, now you ask if my experience matches scientist's criteria.

I am certain I was not dreaming when the entire water at the bar beach was in my belly, nor was I dreaming when 30 5mg valium tablets jumped down my throat.

But you just consider how much sense it makes for you who seem to have had no "personal level of awareness" of NDE want to claim I who have is making a "wrong association".

triplechoice:
Please stop imagining things about me in your head. I have always suspected you and others believe I am anti science or don't trust scientists.

The difference between me and you is this, I accept as truth, untill it is proven otherwise, what has been conclusively proven in the sciences and by scientists, while you ,from what you have displayed here, just swallow uncritically any opinion expressed by scientists as fact. That's why you think the brain is creating the experience of NDE which is not proven yet.

So ,don't cast me in the coinage of those who are anti science. Anything in the sciences that can't be questioned is not science, but dogma, and if you're afraid to question findings in the sciences, then you don't know science very well to question it .

A person like that , which you're turning out to be, is not different from a gullible religious fanatic who is afraid to question anything in their religion and just swallow everything their religious leaders tell them and start acting like a zombie. You believe the brain is creating the experience contrary to what scientist are starting to find out. Have you ever taking the time to find out if what was believed in the past concerning NDE has scientific support.

No ,You have not . This is very obvious from our ongoing conversation. You are not certain about what you know, but just regurgitating unproven claims in the sciences because nearly everyone you know is saying the same thing, so to you must be true.



I just ask you simple questions for us to determine if what you have made of those experiences is the right one. Instead of answering those, you want to deflect by throwing dust everywhere that I don't trust scientists.

OK ,let's say it's true that I don't trust scientists, is that what makes you believe you have made the right associations concerning those experiences? Please learn to accept responsibility for your actions and don't shift it on others.

Now you have just shown that you don't know enough of the phenomena to make any sense of it.
This is what you don't know. NDEs is a type of OBEs .There are different types of OBEs triggered differently. NDEs is triggered during traumatic experiences; drowning, cardiac arrest etc.

Other OBEs can happen in full waking consciousness and are triggered differently. What is common in the different type of OBEs which NDEs is one of them, is the experiencer, during this period, having external visual awareness of seeing things that are" there" ; veridical vision, seeing things from outside the body which corresponds to objective reality ..

So ,anyone who has experienced any type of OBEs and was conscious enough during that time, is in better position than anyone else to make sense of those kind of experiences; NDEs
In your case ,you probably had those experiences associated with NDEs , but was not fully conscious enough, unlike some others to be aware of what was going on ,hence you didn't remember anything when you came to.

Or you had the experiences consciously experiencing those vivid imageries associated with the phenomena, but failed to recollect your experiences after you were reviled, due to psychological and biological reason. This is the explanation given by scientists currently investigating NDEs why people fail to report their experiences.

You are in the dark, Buda, about this things, and just making conjectures in your head.

What you think is not what it is . It is obvious to me that you're just anchoring on what scientists used to believe in the past about NDEs.

So much more is now known in the sciences about NDEs .Please educated yourself very well before discussing these things. You have a phone and data. Help yourself and get better informed.

budaatum:
Sorry triple, but there's no way I'm reading this verbiage of your's. All you do is insult rather than focus on the pertinent points and I have no time to dig through to find what is relevant.

Extract what's relevant into a separate post and I'll consider it.

triplechoice:
I know why you won't read it, but doesn't matter to say why.

The whole point is this. You didn't have a near death experience as you think.

The expression, near death experience is not what you understand it to mean. You just gave it a layman interpretation and believed it is what you experienced.

There are things used in judging correctly if you experience is NDE.Everyone of them must be observed at this time.

1. The person's heart has stopped beating and requires resuscitation.

2. The brain is nonfunctional . It is flatline.

3. Unusual electrical activities in the brain that shouldn't be seen at that moment are present.

This is the yardstick if one has had an NDE or is having it. NDE, is not that you were drowning , fainted, unconscious or involved in a ghastly accident .

If your heart was still beating, brain still functional before and after you were rescued or revived during those times,then you just had a close brush with death and not NDE .

So, from your story there's no evidence you had an NDE. Simple FYI, the term has been NDE abandoned. The new expression to describe the experience is RED; recalled experience of death.

budaatum:
Triple, you do not know if my heart stopped, or my brain flatlined, nor did you measure my brain activity, but just listen to yourself make up what you want to believe with no evidence whatsoever.

buda rests.

triplechoice:
If you knew this ,you should have mentioned it

You didn't know. That's the truth from your story. Everyone can read it. Do you want to edit now? It is too late for thar

triplechoice:
In either stories, there wasn't any time cardiopulmonary resuscitation was done. You just came to after you fainted or almost drowned.
So once again, you didn't have an NDE.

Editing your story now ,we make one to question your integrity.

budaatum:
What is wrong with you? What do you think those saving me were doing? Waiting for me to wake up from my dreams or something all by myself?

triplechoice:
Lol you're already editing it. Was cardiopulmonary resuscitation done on you?
Yes ?

budaatum:
Of course it fuqing was!

I would have died otherwise.

triplechoice:
Your story does not add up. If it was done and your heart starts to beat again, the next thing is to rush you immediately to the nearest emergency ward for further live saving treatment.

But ,according to your story after CPR, you were left to yourself on the beach to throw angry glances at those staring at your unclothedness. Lies

You never had an NDE. Dirty water was pumped out your stomach to stabilize you. That's all.

budaatum:
Dude, were you there? Emergency ward in Nigeria?

Still, I ended up in hospital both times. Ikeja General for the valium, and God knows where for the first. I was way too out to know. Ma is a nurse so I got special fasttrack treatment both times, but I expect you to come up with some other reason to claim you know better.

triplechoice:
FYI, and very important. People hardly survived it once, the survival rate is very low.

budaatum:
I guess you got your information about NDEs from the dead who did not survive, right?

Thankfully I did not write the story in response to you and posted a link to it. And you'd note it was not to prove NDEs so only what was relevant was narrated at the time it was written.

triplechoice:
No. NDE is for the clinically dead. The criteria for judging one who has had it has been given by scientist not me. It is a technical term ....

A near-death experience (NDE) is a profound personal experience associated with death or impending death which researchers claim share similar characteristics. When positive, such experiences may encompass a variety of sensations including detachment from the body, feelings of levitation, total serenity, security, warmth, the experience of absolute dissolution, and the presence of a light. When negative, such experiences may include sensations of anguish and distress.[1]

Explanations for NDEs vary from scientific to religious. Neuroscience research hypothesizes that an NDE is a subjective phenomenon resulting from "disturbed bodily multisensory integration" that occurs during life-threatening events.[2] Some transcendental and religious beliefs about an afterlife include descriptions similar to NDEs.[1][3][4][5][6]

In the U.S., an estimated 9 million people have reported an NDE, according to a 2011 study in Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. Most of these near-death experiences result from serious injury that affects the body or brain.[7
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

triplechoice:
You're one of those living a lie on nairaland. A male pretending to be a female. Few of us know this .

budaatum:
You know very well this question gets the stock answer. Lol!

buda is both male and female,
both equally is buda created.

Just imagine the responses I'd get if my gender were known, and pigs, yuk! Besides, I never find it relevant to topics at hand.

budaatum:
Pay attention to the words in bold.



Dead people do not report subjective experiences because they are dead, triple!


I see where you get your pain from. buda is not pretending to be female. Those who ask know that, and those who do their own research instead of believing the crap they create in their own heads can very easily find out buda's gender if it's that important to them.

triplechoice:
I can see your problem. You're still anchoring on old information concerning NDE. Where did I say dead people report subjective experiences? Show me where I said so.

How is that even possible? Na wah

The wiki article won't make you understand anything. The opinions by neuroscientist captured in it finds no scientific support. If you think it has bring it. In fact they have been invalidated by what is currently known.

Don't go searching for articles online that contains unsubstantiated claims that support what you want to believe ,and then pass it across to me as fact. Each time I reference anything I say what it is; conclusive, not conclusive or what is currently believed.

I have said here those who manage to survive clinical death may report their experiences or may not even remember anything to report due to physiological or biological reasons. This has been established. Clinical death is cardiac arrest and the person can still be brought back to life. It is during this period that people have those experiences that they usually report. I

have never said I take what that they report as true Only the veridical vision aspect of it I am concern with.

Concerning the article still, when was it written? Are you abreast with current happenings in the sciences to know if neuroscientist are still holding on to the opinions expressed in it?

I have posted links for reports on what scientist now know about the phenomena. Go through them or look for something that is based on current findings

budaatum:
As you've noted from my own stories, the experience is subjective to the subject experiencing it and reports must therefore be taken with a large dose of salt as they may not accurately report their experience or what might actually have happened.

In my own drinking of the Bar Beach, reports of family members are that almost 30 minutes passed between me regaining consciousness as opposed to lying there dead, and asking what people were looking at. One of my cousin's even reported that they went all the way to Obanikoro to see if I had returned home and claimed to have returned to be at the beach when I asked what people were starting at. While to me it seemed like I asked that question as soon as I was dragged out the water and opened my eyes, which seemed like a few seconds after I got into difficult in the sea.

And with the valium, my last conscious act was walking out of my room in Ketu and waking up in Ikeja General.

Triple, the fact is that NDE is a subjective experience reported by those who experience it, and the fact that it is a subjective experience makes it difficult to objectify as you seem to want to claim scientists have done.

triplechoice:
Oh my God. I never said scientists have proven it .

I don't know why its difficult for some of you to understand me.

budaatum:
The fact that you are insisting that only what scientist say is what is valid, implies you are saying that, triple. What's ironic is that you don't accept what those same scientists say when it does not support your position here.

NDEs are subjective experiences, and it's rather stupid of you to claim one's subjective experience is not experienced or that one is lying, when the facts are that during and immediately after a NDE experience, one's brain is not functioning in its optimum state so one must take whatever experience they report with a pinch or a huge ladle of salt.

As for understanding you, I'm surprised you understand yourself, with your over verbiage.

triplechoice:
We can't be sure it was a close brush with death or NDE.

triplechoice:
As for your last comment. I won't respond to your hate. Go get some professional help so you don't repeat those suicide attempts in the past. I am not the cause of your problem.

budaatum:
You seem sure it was not a close brush with death, it seems. Were you there with a monitor measuring, I wonder.

You can't have proven claims about the subjective experience of NDEs. Proven claims are objective, and it's difficult for you to prove or disprove a subjective experience.

You'd be even more stupid if you didn't doubt my subjective experience, as the alternative is you believing me which I hope you don't do and is the reason I waited so long despite your continued request to provide it in the first place since it is subjective.

Fact is, if you drink all the water at the Bar Beach or have 30, 5mg valium tablets jump down your throat, you'd pass out and be near to death during which you might have experiences which indicate continued activity of the brain and nervous system, which would stop once you pass from near dead to actual dead during which brain activity stops. Thankfully, concerned people were there to ensure my near death did not end in death, or I might not have been here to tell you about my very subjective experience, which I still insist must be taken with a ladle of salt, as in you must remain sceptical about it since the compromise of my consciousness under the circumstances make whatever is reported subject to doubt as a matter of course.


You are pathetic. Go read through the thread and tell me who has more hatred and problems here. It must frustrate you immensely to be opposed.

triplechoice:
For the last time. Here again

The problem is you still don't understand what an NDEi is. Nobody can see what you experience subjectively ,but scientists using current methods can know when people are having those experiences or have it. And I already mentioned those markers. I won't repeat them.

triplechoice:
If one is unconscious, but the heart is still beating, then you're not close to death yet , unlike the person whose heart has stopped beating. The former is not yet a near death experience no matter the cause. Scientists say it doesn't quality for an NDE, and this is very easy to understand even outside of the sciences.

triplechoice:
If you were not sure of everything that happened to your heart or brain during those period, then the question I continue to ask is why trying to associated to an NDE.

triplechoice:
OK ,let's accept your heart stopped as you imagine, there's no evidence in your story it happened anyway, what were your subjective experiences. Like to share?

triplechoice:
For insulting you, , you deserved it. One thing you lack is respect for the people you are discussing with. You are in the habit of making snide remarks, casting innuendoes and making sarcastic statements that are not unnecessary. You expect me to overlook that ?

triplechoice:
I don't hide. I will come directly ,and insult the hell out of you so you learn to respect other people that you converse. You don't know better than most people here. Do away with your patronising attitude. I won't tolerate it. Or stay of my mention.

budaatum:
And I suppose, if "scientists using current methods" are not there to use those so called current methods, the subjective experience of the individual person reporting their subjective NDE is invalid, right?


And I guess you and scientists are there checking if the person's heart has stopped before you can accept whether they had a NDE or not?


Because it is a subjective experience, triple! Like, in the eye of the beholder!

By God, how the hell do you expect a person experiencing a NDE to know what is happening to their "heart or brain during those period"?

Did you not see from me asking what people were looking at that I was not even aware where I was or what had happened to me not to talk of whatever may have been happening to my heart and brain?


No triple. Let us not accept my heart stopped, since neither of us were measuring my heart at the time. And no, I will not share my personal subjective experience since they were subjective and it would be false of me to present my subjective experience as anything objective.


Have you considered you deserve it too?


Insult me all you want. I am not the sort to consider your subjective insults as anything objective, but purely attempts by you to hide your lack of knowledge which is glaringly obvious.

budaatum:
And I suppose, if "scientists using current methods" are not there to use those so called current methods, the subjective experience of the individual person reporting their subjective NDE is invalid, right?.

And I guess you and scientists are there checking if the person's heart has stopped before you can accept whether they had a NDE or not?.

Because it is a subjective experience, triple! Like, in the eye of the beholder! .

By God, how the hell do you expect a person experiencing a NDE to know what is happening to their "heart or brain during those period"? .

Did you not see from me asking what people were looking at that I was not even aware where I was or what had happened to me not to talk of whatever may have been happening to my heart and brain?
.

No triple. Let us not accept my heart stopped, since neither of us were measuring my heart at the time. And no, I will not share my personal subjective experience since they were subjective and it would be false of me to present my subjective experience as anything objective..

Have you considered you deserve it too?.

Insult me all you want. I am not the sort to consider your subjective insults as anything objective, but purely attempts by you to hide your lack of knowledge which is glaringly obvious.

triplechoice:
.
Did you heart to stopped beating?

budaatum:
I was unconscious so wouldn't know as you rightly observed, and those there were thankfully too busy reviving me and grateful they succeeded for that to have been their concern.

Perhaps if you'd been there with a heart monitor to check you'd have been able to tell us if my heart stopped. But personally I am glad you were not there, because while you are busy checking whether my heart stopped or not instead of reviving me I just might have died.

As to the rest of your nonsense, I could not read past the above at this moment in time because it can't be anything but your usual nonsense. I might later though when I have time to waste on you.