haekymbahd:
Don't derail from the main issue

The main issue is, was Mohamed a descendant of Abraham?

I showed you that:
Ma'n Ibn 'Isa al-Ashja'i al-Qazzaz (silk-merchant) informed us; he said: Mu'awiyah Ibn Salih informed us on the authority of Yahya Ibn Jabir who had seen some Companions of the Prophet and said: The people of Banu Fuhayrah came to the Prophet and said to him: You belong to us. He replied: Verily, (the archangel) Gabriel has informed me that I belong to Mudar. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume I, p. 4)

If this is true, then the genealogy of Mohamed was not known to either himself or his clan.

sagenaija:

The main issue is, was Mohamed a descendant of Abraham?

I showed you that:
Ma'n Ibn 'Isa al-Ashja'i al-Qazzaz (silk-merchant) informed us; he said: Mu'awiyah Ibn Salih informed us on the authority of Yahya Ibn Jabir who had seen some Companions of the Prophet and said: The people of Banu Fuhayrah came to the Prophet and said to him: You belong to us. He replied: Verily, (the archangel) Gabriel has informed me that I belong to Mudar. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume I, p. 4)

If this is true, then the genealogy of Mohamed was not known to either himself or his clan.

Wathila ibn Al-Asqa’ reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, saying, “Verily, Allah has chosen Kinanah from the sons of Ishmael, and he has chosen the Quraish from Kinanah, and he has chosen the tribe of Hashim from the Quraish, and he has chosen me from the tribe of Hashim.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2276


Narrated Kulaib:

I was told by the Rabiba (i.e. daughter of the wife of the Prophet) who, I think, was Zainab, that the Prophet forbade the utensils (of wine called) Ad-Dubba, Al-Hantam, Al-Muqaiyar and Al-Muzaffat. I said to her, "Tell me as to which tribe the Prophet belonged; was he from the tribe of Mudar?" She replied, "He belonged to the tribe of Mudar and was from the offspring of An-Nadr bin Kinana." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 698)



Unfortunately his geneology was known to his daughter


Muhammad claim he was a descendant of Ishmael his daughter made the same claim also Angel Gabriel confirmed this what more do you want they don't know their father?

haekymbahd:


Wathila ibn Al-Asqa’ reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, saying, “Verily, Allah has chosen Kinanah from the sons of Ishmael, and he has chosen the Quraish from Kinanah, and he has chosen the tribe of Hashim from the Quraish, and he has chosen me from the tribe of Hashim.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2276

Narrated Kulaib:

I was told by the Rabiba (i.e. daughter of the wife of the Prophet) who, I think, was Zainab, that the Prophet forbade the utensils (of wine called) Ad-Dubba, Al-Hantam, Al-Muqaiyar and Al-Muzaffat. I said to her, "Tell me as to which tribe the Prophet belonged; was he from the tribe of Mudar?" She replied, "He belonged to the tribe of Mudar and was from the offspring of An-Nadr bin Kinana." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 698)

Unfortunately his geneology was known to his daughter

Muhammad claim he was a descendant of Ishmael his daughter made the same claim also Angel Gabriel confirmed this what more do you want they don't know their father?

I have stated this over and over again: ISLAM SPEAKS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE MOUTH.
For example, Ishmael in Koran 19:54 is said to be a messenger and a prophet and built with his father the Kaaba (according to Islam). So, he must have been a prophet to the Arabs. How come in koran 34:44 it says no prophet was sent to Arabs before Mohamed?
That is Islam speaking from both sides of the mouth.

All Moslems agree that a child belongs to his father.
Abraham's son Ishmael should therefore bear his identity.
IF (and a big IF) Mohamed was from Ishmael that would make him Aramaic, not Arab.
If according to your logic Mohamed is an Arab, then he cannot be from Ishmael who IS NOT an Arab.

Koran talks of the sons of Adam. Never sons of Eve. So, again, it is the father's line that is used.

Can we find anywhere in Islamic sources that say Ishmael was the father of the Arabs?

Ibn Kathir in his biography of Mohamed - sira al-Nabawiyya admitted that Ibn Abbas said the genealogists have lied twice or thrice about the lineage of Mohamed even to Adnan. Also that ”between Adnan and Ishmael there were 30 ancestors who are unknown."

Sahir Bukhari 3364, book 60, Hadith 43 says Ishmael learnt Arabic from the tribe of Jurhum who are the enemy of the tribe of Mohamed. If he were an Arab how come he had to settle among them and had to learn Arabic from Arabs? Do you need more than simple common sense to get this?

sagenaija:
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I have stated this over and over again: ISLAM SPEAKS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE MOUTH.
For example, Ishmael in Koran 19:54 is said to be a messenger and a prophet and built with his father the Kaaba (according to Islam). So, he must have been a prophet to the Arabs. How come in koran 34:44 it says no prophet was sent to Arabs before Mohamed?
That is Islam speaking from both sides of the mouth.

All Moslems agree that a child belongs to his father.
Abraham's son Ishmael should therefore bear his identity.
IF (and a big IF) Mohamed was from Ishmael that would make him Aramaic, not Arab.
If according to your logic Mohamed is an Arab, then he cannot be from Ishmael who IS NOT an Arab.

Koran talks of the sons of Adam. Never sons of Eve. So, again, it is the father's line that is used.

Can we find anywhere in Islamic sources that say Ishmael was the father of the Arabs?

Ibn Kathir in his biography of Mohamed - sira al-Nabawiyya admitted that Ibn Abbas said the genealogists have lied twice or thrice about the lineage of Mohamed even to Adnan. Also that ”between Adnan and Ishmael there were 30 ancestors who are unknown."

Sahir Bukhari 3364, book 60, Hadith 43 says Ishmael learnt Arabic from the tribe of Jurhum who are the enemy of the tribe of Mohamed. If he were an Arab how come he had to settle among them and had to learn Arabic from Arabs? Do you need more than simple common sense to get this?

I still don't understand how Muhammad being an Arab or not change the fact that he was descendant of Abraham whom Allah made a great nation. Even if he isn't an Arab it doesn't affect his prophethood in anyway.

Arabised Arabs: These are arabs who trace their tribal ancestry to foreigners who migrated into the Arabian Peninsula and eventually adopted the arab culture and language. So there is nothing wrong in calling Muhammad an Arab.

Stop grasping at straws Muhammad himself and his daughter inluding Angel Gabriel claims he was a descendant of Ishmael..

Wathila ibn Al-Asqa’ reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, saying, “Verily, Allah has chosen Kinanah from the sons of Ishmael, and he has chosen the Quraish from Kinanah, and he has chosen the tribe of Hashim from the Quraish, and he has chosen me from the tribe of Hashim.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2276


Who said ishmail is the father of Arabs or not atleast your God made his son's (Kedar and Tema) a reference point when referring to Arabia why was that cos I didn't know why your God failed to mention the tribe of Jurhum.


Isaiah 21
13 The mournful, inspired prediction (a burden to be lifted up) concerning Arabia: In the forests and thickets of Arabia you shall lodge, O you caravans of Dedanites [from northern Arabia].

14 To the thirsty [Dedanites] bring water, O inhabitants of the land of Tema [in Arabia]; meet the fugitive with bread [suitable] for him.

15 For they have fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war [the press of battle].

16 For the Lord has said this to me, Within a year, according to the years of a hireling [who will work no longer than was agreed], all the glory of Kedar [an Arabian tribe] will fail.

17 And the remainder of the number of archers and their bows, the mighty men of the sons of Kedar, will be diminished and few; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken it.




Question 1: why was your God using ishmails sons as reference point when referring to Arabia was ishmael the father of the Arabs?


Question 2: Who are the sons of Kedar are they Arabs or Aramaic?

haekymbahd:
Don't derail from the main issue

Do you accept that Kedar and Tema are both sons of Ishmael and they are also names of tribes in Arabia was that a coincidence how did they get there if Ishmael hadn't been there?


Tell me where historically has been reffered to as Arabia?



Moses must have visited Kabah (Mecca) as he asked Pharaoh to let his people go to the wilderness (desert) to make pilgrimage to his God.


International Standard Version
Exodus 5 vs 1
[b]After Moses and Aaron arrived, they told Pharaoh, "This is what the LORD God of Israel says: 'Let my people go so they may make a pilgrimage for me in the desert.'"

2 But Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.

3 And they said, The God of the Hebrews has met with us; let us go, we pray you, three days' journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.


Since Jews neither hold festival nor made pilgrimage in the desert regularly in their entire history and they have no 'J' sound letter in their Hebrew language, it won't be difficult for people with common sense to understand that the Hebrew word 'Hag' refers to Arabic word 'Haj' which means pilgrimage to Kabah (Mecca)

Moreover

1) The miracle of parting Red sea by Moses happened between the Sinai peninsula and Arabia (the gulf of Aqaba). Not between Egypt and Sinai peninsula as wrongly taught to both Jews and Christians.

Your confusion, from what I can tell, stems from the fact that you don't understand the meaning of the word Arab.
Secondly, you think Arabia has always been what you think it is today.
Check up those two things and maybe it will begin to clear your understanding.

PS:
How long ago did Ishmael live before the time of Mohamed?
Clue: Not less than 2,500 years.

sagenaija:
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Your confusion, from what I can tell, stems from the fact that you don't understand the meaning of the word Arab.
Secondly, you think Arabia has always been what you think it is today.
Check up those two things and maybe it will begin to clear your understanding.

PS:
How long ago did Ishmael live before the time of Mohamed?
Clue: Not less than 2,500 years.

You are just grasping at straws even if Muhammad is Arab or not does that change the fact that he was a descendant of Ishmael...

Let me agree with you that he is not an Arab does that change anything...


Yes, he belonged to the Quraysh Tribe which was one of several Arab tribes in Arabia. However, his lineage goes back to Ishmael, son of Abraham from Ur in Mesopotamia. Ishmael’s wife was Egyptian. Between Ishmael and his wife to Muhammad’s time, the family line had intermarried with other Arab tribes...


Wathila ibn Al-Asqa’ reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, saying, “Verily, Allah has chosen Kinanah from the sons of Ishmael, and he has chosen the Quraish from Kinanah, and he has chosen the tribe of Hashim from the Quraish, and he has chosen me from the tribe of Hashim.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2276


That is what Muhammad said about himself


Who are the sons of Kedar according to the bible?

alfarouq:



How did Abraham become a Jew when even Isaac is not a Jew.

Do you even know who is a Jew?

They are the descendants of Jacob.

There was nothing like jew before Jacob.

Some christians always try to claim to be intelligent when in reality they are daft. Perhaps it is born out of the need to market christianity even with lies.

People should learn to use their brains please, examine what you are told or see on the internet before peddling it around. Else you will be making a fool of yourself.

The people of Judah, Jewish people collectively
A Jew is a person from Judah.

Why are u even calling them Christians, they are not christians, they are hybrid Christians
Christianity is far beyond what you see in churches today.
U don't claim Christianity, Christianity is a rebirth, you have to be born into it ( except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God).