Wilgrea7:

That's not how this judging thing works. I wouldn't want you to, i don't know, maybe distort the criteria, or twist it to fit the narrative.

So if you're sure of the criteria, and you're sure your God is innocent/holy based on them, then kindly share them here for all to see. Let the truth about how your God is Holy based on the standards he has set for right and wrong be known to everyone.

You love truth don't you? Then show it to everyone. I'll be waiting.

Twisting or manipulating the criteria is proof of inconsistency. And Truth is a consistent. And God is True and Consistent. And the mere fact that you are aware that the standards could be bent to suit the case is protection enough.

Thus, your testing area is boundless so that you can check for inconsistencies but I would show you that God was/is Unchanging and His Standards, were consistent all through.

So, fire away.

I salute your attempt to try and justufy your God based on the criteria you provided.. but it doesn't seem to even come close.

Let's begin.

MaxInDHouse:

The so called children were ISRAELITES who knew that the man they're insulting was sent by the God of Israel, they're not babies but teenagers and their parents who are supposed to scold them were watching and laughing knowing fully well that it'll attract a CURSE!
“‘CURSED is the one who treats his father or his mother with contempt.’ (And all the people will say, ‘Amen!’) Deuteronomy 27:16

You tried to justify God sending bears to maul children for making fun of a baldy.. and your excuse was that the baldy was from God?

1. Nowhere is it stated that the children knew who Elisha was
2. Even if they did know, how does that make the actions of your God any more justified?

If i sent a bald messanger to you and some kids in your community made fun of him, does that justify me sending 2 lions to maul them?

Your excuse holds no water. If you want to talk about justice, and fairness, then explain how the verbal mockery the kids gave, is equal to being mauled by bears. Explain how that's just and fair.

This means God did not inflict pain on the man's body yet expecting him to reason. So when the Bible say "HARDEN" it doesn't mean the same God blocked Pharaoh's heart from doing the right thing.

What? What part of “hardened his heart" gave you the impression that God expected him to reason? What part of “hardened his heart" gives you the impression that Pharoah still had the freedom to do the right thing.

Do i have to explain what the words mean to you, or are you just trying to be intellectually dishonest here??

Right thinking Egyptians were camping with the Israelites after noticing that the God in question meant business this Egyptians turned their own backs on their stubborn king and left Egypt with the Israelites {Exodus 12:38} the actions of these ones shows that my God is just because He approved them as His people!

A terrible attempt at a rebuttal. The Egyptians that left with them did so after your God had unjustly punished them for the heart of Pharoah who he already hardened.

The death of the first borns wasn't the first plague. It was the last

What part of your justice and fairness compass tells you it's ok to punish people unjustly, with 10 terrible plagues, after you've hardened the heart of their leader to not accept the request you put before him.

Your argument of the Egyptians leaving with the Israelites holds absolutely no weight here.

Speaking of the 10th plague... What type of justice requires me to kill your child because you pissed me off? Since when did innocent children become a commodity by which we deliver justice?

If a murderer is found guilty, do you sentence his son to life imprisonment, or worse, death.

Give me a break.

In a place where there's no law punishment is unjust but once the Israelites have the laws then my God is justified for dealing with defaulters. That's logical!

This is as nonsensical as me saying

1. There's no law in this place
2. I create a law which states that people who wear green hats should be stoned to death
3. Yay.. look at me... I'm just and fair

Anyone can see how illogical that sounds. But that's the exact excuse you're trying to give.

Nowhere is justice and fairness shown in the actions of stoning sabbath day workers, non-virgins, and disobedient children.

My God used His power to read the traits of the unborn child that he will despice the heritage that Abraham and Isaac cherished so much {Genesis 25:34} this is right no human even you will prefer the child that love what you cherish so much more than the one who despice your heritage.

That's bull and you know it. Nowhere in the bible did it say that God used his “power" to read the traits of Esau to know he'll despise his birthright.

It's clearly stated that Esau was hated in the womb, before he had the ability to even choose to despise or accept his birthright.

Also, you're trying to play a dangerous game with the notion of freewill here. And I'll give you a quick hint.. it doesn't work in favor of your argument. AT ALL.

If Esau had freewill, then your God is unjust for hating him for a crime he didn't even have the capacity to commit yet.

And if Esau had no freewill, your God is also unjust for knowingly creating a person who he knew would do something he didn't like, and then hate him for something that was entirely out of his control.

It is well justified as He has sent a warning message to all the nations through what happened in Egypt and how He parted the red sea before His people, so any nation standing in their way supposed to be exterminated logically. Even you as stupid as you can be will flee for your life when calamity is approaching!

That's analogous to saying

1. I destroyed a house (something you've failed to prove as just)
2. I'm going to go on and destroy houses
3. Because i destoyed the first house, anyone else who stands in my way as i come to destroy their own house is worthy of being destroyed.
4. Yay... Look at me.. i am just.

It... Makes... No... Sense

It's justified that after your ancestors have done what is evil and you heard of their past deeds but chose to follow their footsteps. In fact your own punishment supposed to be triple because your ancestors never had any past lessons unlike you who have heard about their past evil deeds. That's why my God said He will bring the punishment of your evil ancestors on you if you follow their footsteps {Exodus 34:7} but if you choose virtue then my God will prove to be loyal to you and your children for a thousand upon thousands of your generations as long as they're all following your virtuous deed! Deuteronomy 5:10

That's a terrible analogy as to how justice works.

If the price for stealing is 3 years in prison, and my dad steals, he gets 3 years in prison.

If i steal, I don't get 9 years.. i get 3. Your logic fails terribly here.

People choose to do crimes for a variety of reasons. Punishing someone more because their ancestors did something makes no sense.

Every crime has it's punishment. The punishment is administered to the person who committed the crime. After the punishment is administered, the debt for the crime is paid. Punishing the child more goes against that basic principle, and hence, makes zero sense.

Misinterpretation!
My God was willing to allow His only begotten Son (Jesus) pay for the debt that His first human son (Adam) owe in order to justify why Adam's descendants could enjoy everlasting life which Adam forfeited.
Remember that thousandth upon thousandth of Adam's descendants are doomed because as long as they're following Adam's rebellious footsteps but because Jesus was ready to pay the debt as he taught us how to reconcile with the true God so that we can gain what Adam lost.
So instead of arguing blindly all you need is ask in order to know who to blame! Matthew 7:7-8

You didn't even offer a rebuttal here. You just restated my point like it was some high and mighty thing.

If i have 2 sons. One, kind and good, and the other, a thief. What sensible justice system would tell me to punish the good son for the crimes of the thief?

Your whole “millions of Adam's descendants are doomed" analogy is an appeal to emotion. One that breeds injustice.

In what universe is punishing the innocent because the guilty would be “doomed" considered fair?

That's like saying a criminal who should seve 5 years should be set free, because you don't want him to be punished. And because of that, you grab an innocent man off the street and sentence him to 5 years.

Even if the innocent man offered himself to pay for the crimes of the criminal. It is not just.

You've failed to show in any of these instances, how your God acted justly. If anything, you've further shown the injustice and unfairness in his actions.

Let me end this by adding your iconic smile emoji.

Dtruthspeaker:


We all do!

Therefore, we can call God Good because Hie did good things!

Not so fast
If you say God does good things, what is the standard for defining Good things in this case
Is it the same standard we use for everyother person ?

Wilgrea7:
I salute your attempt to try and justufy your God based on the criteria you provided.. but it doesn't seem to even come close.
Let's begin.
You tried to justify God sending bears to maul children for making fun of a baldy.. and your excuse was that the baldy was from God?
1. Nowhere is it stated that the children knew who Elisha was
2. Even if they did know, how does that make the actions of your God any more justified?
If i sent a bald messanger to you and some kids in your community made fun of him, does that justify me sending 2 lions to maul them?
Your excuse holds no water. If you want to talk about justice, and fairness, then explain how the verbal mockery the kids gave, is equal to being mauled by bears. Explain how that's just and fair.

I told you from the beginning that you can only argue blindly against what is Holy (Pure) you can never ever find a better option!
The Creator wants to restore sanity on planet earth so he made a nation His special people {Exodus 19:5} and gave them rules to pass onto all their children {Deuteronomy 6:4-8} so the killing of those children is well justified and their parents will learn from their disobedience to God's law!

Wilgrea7:

What? What part of “hardened his heart" gave you the impression that God expected him to reason? What part of “hardened his heart" gives you the impression that Pharoah still had the freedom to do the right thing.
Do i have to explain what the words mean to you, or are you just trying to be intellectually dishonest here??

According to the military the best form of defense is attack. But the true God never did anything to hurt Pharaoh in person so learn through reasoning God was giving Moses the reason not to start doubting why the God who turn a rod into snake refused to turn a mortal man like Pharaoh into a rat or even take away his breath for challenging God's authority. So a military intelligence officer fully understand what that phrase mean as we often torture a captive to release whatever he's holding in his heart as secret but the Almighty didn't do so to Pharaoh yet expecting him to open his mouth and declare free the slaves that has been in Egypt for 400 years. Ọmọ a military intelligence officer of my caliber fully grasp the phrase.

Wilgrea7:

A terrible attempt at a rebuttal. The Egyptians that left with them did so after your God had unjustly punished them for the heart of Pharoah who he already hardened. The death of the first borns wasn't the first plague. It was the last What part of your justice and fairness compass tells you it's ok to punish people unjustly, with 10 terrible plagues, after you've hardened the heart of their leader to not accept the request you put before him.
Your argument of the Egyptians leaving with the Israelites holds absolutely no weight here.
Speaking of the 10th plague... What type of justice requires me to kill your child because you pissed me off? Since when did innocent children become a commodity by which we deliver justice? If a murderer is found guilty, do you sentence his son to life imprisonment, or worse, death.

According to this God since sin has entered into the world and death through sin all humans are dead from His standpoint as each will grow old, get sick and eventually die whether they prove to be nice or wicked {Romans 5:12} so when He is working on His plans to restore sanity what matters most to Him is how mankind learn from the event because they will still die anyway!
So for the Israelites to have been cruelly mistreated for centuries and Egyptians to pick up few things and follow their own slaves just because of a God came with His plans show that His actions yielded a positive result!

Wilgrea7:

This is as nonsensical as me saying
1. There's no law in this place
2. I create a law which states that people who wear green hats should be stoned to death
3. Yay.. look at me... I'm just and fair
Anyone can see how illogical that sounds. But that's the exact excuse you're trying to give.
Nowhere is justice and fairness shown in the actions of stoning sabbath day workers, non-virgins, and disobedient children.

According to His word this God is described as "JEHOVAH of armies" {Isaiah 9:7} and don't forget that REBELLION against Him caused all the troubles mankind is experiencing today so to make sure that sanity is fully restored all prospective subjects that will benefit from the plan of His everlasting life must be handled with IRON HAND. So when He gives orders all must obey without questioning His authority. Note that He has displayed His mightiness to this nation and their forefathers has told them how this God singlehandedly journeyed to Egypt and rescued them without a military force, therefore He has the right to deal ruthlessly with any one who proves to be a rebel among those He is grooming as His special possession. Note also that He never expected the same from nations to whom He has not shown His mightiness. So He is well JUSTIFIED!

Wilgrea7:

That's bull and you know it. Nowhere in the bible did it say that God used his “power" to read the traits of Esau to know he'll despise his birthright. It's clearly stated that Esau was hated in the womb, before he had the ability to even choose to despise or accept his birthright. Also, you're trying to play a dangerous game with the notion of freewill here. And I'll give you a quick hint.. it doesn't work in favor of your argument. AT ALL.
If Esau had freewill, then your God is unjust for hating him for a crime he didn't even have the capacity to commit yet. And if Esau had no freewill, your God is also unjust for knowingly creating a person who he knew would do something he didn't like, and then hate him for something that was entirely out of his control.

When He said "i am the beginning and the end" it means He has mapped out a plan to see to it that sanity is fully restored on planet earth and He will see to it till it's end so the lineage of Abraham becomes His focus that's why any child coming through Abraham will be sighted from afar whether such child will prove to be useful in the plan or not! Genesis 16:11-12 compare to 17:18-21
So the true God never predestined Esau that way rather He used His power to foresee what Esau will turn out to be since He is part of those coming from the lineage of Salvation!

Wilgrea7:

That's analogous to saying
1. I destroyed a house (something you've failed to prove as just)
2. I'm going to go on and destroy houses
3. Because i destoyed the first house, anyone else who stands in my way as i come to destroy their own house is worthy of being destroyed.
4. Yay... Look at me.. i am just.
It... Makes... No... Sense

When arguing about HOLINESS i told you that the first thing you need to consider is PURITY which means you can't find a better one.
All other gods back then were using humans to fight for space so they can become gods after using humans to secure a geographical location then the same fighters become their worshipers. But this God journeyed all alone to the world's most powerful nation of that time with two feeble octogenarians and delivered millions out of bondage. Then He is matching with His people towards your destination. Do you think it's wise to challenge His authority? Even if you hypocritically choose to argue blindly now sane billions today will tell you that you're being stupid. That's why Rahab a lady in Jericho and the inhabitants of Gibeon acted wisely and the true God welcomed them!

Wilgrea7:

That's a terrible analogy as to how justice works.
If the price for stealing is 3 years in prison, and my dad steals, he gets 3 years in prison.
If i steal, I don't get 9 years.. i get 3. Your logic fails terribly here.
People choose to do crimes for a variety of reasons. Punishing someone more because their ancestors did something makes no sense. Every crime has it's punishment. The punishment is administered to the person who committed the crime. After the punishment is administered, the debt for the crime is paid. Punishing the child more goes against that basic principle, and hence, makes zero sense.

Perhaps you don't get this thing so i'll enlighten you!
All the governmental institutions ever established on this planet have just one purpose: to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign within their domain!
So before you can prove that an institution is unjust with it's system of rule you must first find a better institution that has performed better. JEHOVAH said:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9
And today He has His own people trained with His word (Bible) and of all the institutions ever established by humans only Jehovah's people has been able to achieve LOVE, JOY and PEACE in their organization! Isaiah 2:2-4
The Holy One of Israel is not saying you can't find something to argue upon but you can never ever find a better performing institution than His own! Isaiah 54:17
So His system of handling matters has been JUSTIFIED! Luke 7:35

Wilgrea7:
I
You didn't even offer a rebuttal here. You just restated my point like it was some high and mighty thing.
If i have 2 sons. One, kind and good, and the other, a thief. What sensible justice system would tell me to punish the good son for the crimes of the thief?
Your whole “millions of Adam's descendants are doomed" analogy is an appeal to emotion. One that breeds injustice.
In what universe is punishing the innocent because the guilty would be “doomed" considered fair? That's like saying a criminal who should seve 5 years should be set free, because you don't want him to be punished. And because of that, you grab an innocent man off the street and sentence him to 5 years. Even if the innocent man offered himself to pay for the crimes of the criminal. It is not just.

To get true justice you need the uncommon sense not the common!
Note that JEHOVAH created humans in His image so all His angelic sons are watching how He will deal with this matter without staining His Holiness. First of all it's His first human Son that brought rebellion to planet earth and it's affecting all his descendants till today as we can see people killing people for politics (they are not ready to submit to their fellowman's standard)
To right this wrong a sacrifice must be offered on behalf of obedient mankind to transfer their genealogy from Adam to another perfect human son of God who must prove to be obedient and loyal completely. 1Corinthians 15:45
The one who wants to buy obedient mankind as his adopted children must pay with his human life what Adam owe. That's how Jesus will become our everlasting father unlike Adam our dead father! Isaiah 9:6
JEHOVAH promised that since mankind need to be restored back to perfection the one who offered his human life will be the same person to rule over mankind for 1,000 years in order to lead them to a perfect state! Revelations 20:4
So all the angels in heaven are watching how JEHOVAH will justify the transition of mankind's life from Adam to Jesus because to them Jehovah supposed to destroy Satan, Adam and Eve then create another pair to start all over again but He decided to show that His works are perfect by allowing time to prove through some of Adam's descendants that humans can remain obedient and loyal to Him as their rightful owner no matter the situation they find themselves! The Bible's account of Job is evidence that Jehovah created Adam perfect the defect is as a result of Adam's choice not from Jehovah! Deuteronomy 32:5

Wilgrea7:
I
You've failed to show in any of these instances, how your God acted justly. If anything, you've further shown the injustice and unfairness in his actions.
Let me end this by adding your iconic smile emoji.

HOLY means PURE as in there is no better one. So Jehovah has proved to be Holy unless you present a better way than the way Jehovah has handled situation giving us a practical example by pointing to a society following the better way!

Hermes119:

Not so fast
If you say God does good things, what is the standard for defining Good things in this case
Is it the same standard we use for everyother person ?

What we are trying to get you to appreciate is that the first thing we do when assessing any thing is whether good or evil, is that IT IS ALWAYS BASED ON HOW IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS US.

Which leads to the fact that the standard of assessiment is based on how an action/inaction directly/indirectly affects us.

Which itself would lead to Law via Rights and Liabilities.

Thus, before you can validly and conclusively say that a thing is good or evil, in addition to all other considerations, recourse must be had to The Law! (not man made laws eg constitutions/statutes for the maker of law is always above his law and his law has no power to hold him. which is why men are above manmade laws which is why we easily disobey them. But not so with The Owner of This World's Law aka God which is Natural Law! And no man made Natural Law. It is even rather that Natural Law made man, which is why men do not easily disobey it.
So I am not talking about manmade law BUT ABOUT Natural Law when I say Law!)

And Natural Law is The Maker, Ruler, Judge and King of good and evil.

So, you see, among the Standard of Measurement, course and recourse must be made to The Court of Natural Law, the Determinant and Judge of good and evil

Dtruthspeaker:


What we are trying to get you to appreciate is that the first thing we do when assessing any thing is whether good or evil, is that IT IS ALWAYS BASED ON HOW IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS US.

Which leads to the fact that the standard of assessiment is based on how an action/inaction directly/indirectly affects us.

Which itself would lead to Law via Rights and Liabilities.

Thus, before you can validly and conclusively say that a thing is good or evil, in addition to all other considerations, recourse must be had to The Law! (not man made laws eg constitutions/statutes for the maker of law is always above his law and his law has no power to hold him. which is why men are above manmade laws which is why we easily disobey them. But not so with The Owner of This World's Law aka God which is Natural Law! And no man made Natural Law. It is even rather that Natural Law made man, which is why men do not easily disobey it.
So I am not talking about Natural Law when I say Law!)

And Natural Law is The Ruler, Judge and King of good and evil.

Okay

Wilgrea7:


But this is exactly what I said. It is only the actions of the third parties, which in the case of a God, the creations, that can be seen as good or bad.

I don't see how the actions of the shoemaker, or a God, which are, and will always be backed by reasons, can be good, or bad. Especially since in the case of God, the reasons are the criteria by which good and bad are judged.

If the possibility of an action deviating from the reasons of the shoemaker/God cannot exist, then on what basis would the action be called right or wrong?

That's why I said going by the concept you proposed, your God simply cannot be Holy, or unholy.

If Holiness is based on alignment with his reason, and his actions are always backed by reasons, irrespective of what they are, then classifying them as holy or unholy simply doesn't make sense.

His actions can't also be classified as perfect because there can be no deviation from what he intends to do. His actions and his reason cannot be separated from each other, and hence, the former cannot be judged based on the latter. And because of that, it makes no sense to ascribe titles like holiness or perfection to him.





This is an issue of subjective morality vs objective morality. Of course, if a God is seen as the highest possible power, and the arbiter of good and evil, then his definition of good at that point in time is what flies.

I don't have an issue with right and wrong in that context. I could still bring up an argument or two in favor of the humans.. but i think that's another debate entirely

I think I got your point well, your point is if whatsoever God does is holy and that no action of his can be unholy then saying he is holy or unholy is meaningless since it could be anything. But it is people trying to imitate his action that can be holy or unholy. Example
Suppose you're an abstract artist and I'm to imitate your drawing as your student, then whatsoever you draw on your canvas is neither perfect or imperfect but whatever I draw on my canvas to imitate your work can be called perfect or imperfect.

justlove91:

I think I got your point well, your point is if whatsoever God does is holy and that no action of his can be unholy then saying he is holy or unholy is meaningless since it could be anything. But it is people trying to imitate his action that can be holy or unholy. Example
Suppose you're an abstract artist and I'm to imitate your drawing as your student, then whatsoever you draw on your canvas is neither perfect or imperfect but whatever I draw on my canvas to imitate your work can be called perfect or imperfect.

Exactly. The title of holiness or unholiness makes no sense in respect to God. Only humans, who are subject to the definition of right and wrong can bear those titles.