Hey everyone,

So I've been thinking about this Holiness thing for a while. This is primarily geared towards the Christian and Muslim faiths, but other views are more than welcomed as well. Ok.. Down to business.

The claim of Holiness is one that seems to be an integral part of the abrahamic faiths. God is supposedly holy, and you should strive to be like him and whatnot.

But my question is, how exactly is your God Holy? What exactly makes Him/It holy?

Is God holy because he has/can do no evil, or is he holy because nothing he does can be considered evil?

As an example, we have stories of the Abrahamic God allegedly drowning people in floods, ordering the slaughtering of entire cities in his name, sending bears to maul children, ordering the stoning of people for little offences, planning to torch people for eternity, and so on. The list goes on and on.

These actions, if performed by any human, would be immediately deemed bad and immoral. But if your God does it, It's completely fine. Then on what basis do you award this deity the title of Holiness?

One of the most common responses I've heard, is that we're his creation, and therefore he can do whatever he pleases. If that's the case, then why call him Holy? It just seems like an arbitrary title with no much meaning behind it.

He could make every single person suffer the most excruciating pains for millions of years and still be considered Holy. He could cause all children to die from terrible diseases, and you would say he has the right, since we're his creation.

If that's the case, If your God can allegedly do whatever he wants with humans since he created them, then on what basis would you ascribe Holiness to him? What exactly would you define as Holiness?

Looking forward to your responses

There's nothing holy about the abrahamic god. Yahwe is a war god worshipped by Israelites. Till this day there exist a book among Jewish scholars named the book of the wars of yahwe. Why should a god who created humanity use the sane humanity to destroy humanity. There's nothing holy about them. They are just Extraterrestrials who used man to fight wars for natural and mineral resources of planet earth

Wilgrea7:

But my question is, how exactly is your God Holy? What exactly makes Him/It holy?

Holiness refers to purity and cleanliness of the highest quality and kind.

And God's Holiness is of a very fine pure matter that is full of Burning Power which is intolerable of anything and everything that is unclean, even of the slightest atom of dirt.

Wilgrea7:

Is God holy because he has/can do no evil, or is he holy because nothing he does can be considered evil?...

Nope! He is Holy because He is Holy!

His Right to administer and exercise control over His creations does not affect His Person.

Bet you have never heard this Law "He He who exercises his rights, does no wrong!.

And the Owner of a House is who determines what is right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral!

And we are not the ones who placed holiness on Him, it was a fact we saw on Him when He opened Himself for a brief moment.

43Ronin:
There's nothing holy about the abrahamic god. Yahwe is a war god worshipped by Israelites. Till this day there exist a book among Jewish scholars named the book of the wars of yahwe. Why should a god who created humanity use the sane humanity to destroy humanity. There's nothing holy about them. They are just Extraterrestrials who used man to fight wars for natural and mineral resources of planet earth

See how stupid you atheists are!

That you even expect and think it good that a greater than man (god) should stoop to your level to come down and war with you dieable men!

Every reasonable person knows that an 18 year old man should never fight with a stupid 5 year old boy and should not be allowed to. That the permissible way is to go and bring his 3 or 2 year old brother (if you want to disgrace the fool) to fight him for you.

But this concept is far from satanist for it is you 18 year olds who will be very happy to go and fight a 5 year old by yourself with all your power. So ofcourse you think God is like you.

And HE IS NOT!

Dtruthspeaker:


See how stupid you atheists are!

That you even expect and think it good that a greater than man (god) should stoop to your level to come down and war with you dieable men!

Every reasonable person knows that an 18 year old man should never fight with a stupid 5 year old boy and should not be allowed to. That the permissible way is to go and bring his 3 or 2 year old brother (if you want to disgrace the fool) to fight him for you.

But this concept is far from satanist for it is you 18 year olds who will be very happy to go and fight a 5 year old by yourself with all your power. So ofcourse you think God is like you.

And HE IS NOT!

You never make any sense when you quote. Always sounding like an old fool devoid of reasoning or reasoning like that of a chicke . While will your adopted israeli god yahwe tell israelites to kill everyone in the ancestral land of canaan including babies. The yahwe even hated Saul because he did not understand why he should utterly destroy everything in his path. The only difference between Christian & Muslim is Jesus. If not yahwe worshippers like you would have been killing and bombing heavens just as he did in the old testament

43Ronin:

You never make any sense when you quote. Always sounding like an old fool devoid of reasoning or reasoning like that of a chicke . While will your adopted israeli god yahwe tell israelites to kill everyone in the ancestral land of canaan including babies. The yahwe even hated Saul because he did not understand why he should utterly destroy everything in his path. The only difference between Christian & Muslim is Jesus. If not yahwe worshippers like you would have been killing and bombing heavens just as he did in the old testament

Clingclanggbosah! Noise making.

Change of Post!

You were expecting an 18yr old to fight a 5 yr old.

Dtruthspeaker:


Clingclanggbosah! Noise making.

Change of Post!

You were expecting an 18yr old to fight a 5 yr old.

My initial response to you was harsh and I am sorry about that. I notice that you have a zeal to serve the Lord hence your fanatic tendencies. I used to be like you until I prayed to the God without a name, the source of all cosmic consciousness and he guided me to knowledge. Note I am a Christian but not a yahwe worshipper because I have come in contact with teachings Christians of 1st & 2nd century AD who lived the apostles in their various missionary settlements. The words of Jesus about the creator of this world, his true purpose here on earth were revealed. You cannot be the same when you come in contact with such men or original mansripts written by the Apostles on the teachings of Jesus. Those gospels are not in your bible today and those that Practised such christianity were hounded and killed by Rome in order to establish their new world religious order. I do not worship the demiurge you guys call god because he is not God and was also created. The eternal father is perfect will not order people to kill themselves because he loves everyone and we are all his children. The Live of God is the beginning of wisdom

43Ronin:
There's nothing holy about the abrahamic god. Yahwe is a war god worshipped by Israelites. Till this day there exist a book among Jewish scholars named the book of the wars of yahwe. Why should a god who created humanity use the sane humanity to destroy humanity. There's nothing holy about them. They are just Extraterrestrials who used man to fight wars for natural and mineral resources of planet earth

What is Holiness and what does it mean to say a God is Holy?

43Ronin:
... The eternal father is perfect will not order people to kill themselves because he loves everyone and we are all his children. The Live of God is the beginning of wisdom

Since you say you know The Highest then you must know that Law and "Just is", is His Name.

And that no wicked shall go unpunished as no righteous shall be unrewarded.

And that He always raiseth up an host against His enemies.

And not everyone is His Child for Peace and Prosperity encamps round about His Children always but for those who are not His children, it is wrath and destruction.

Dtruthspeaker:


Holiness refers to purity and cleanliness of the highest quality and kind.

Purity implies absence of impurities.. so what would you classify as an impurity, and how is your God devoid of said impurities?

Nope! He is Holy because He is Holy!

This seems incredibly circular. You cannot define a quality, by said quality.

You can be considered strong, if you can lift let's say 100 tonnes. There has to be something by which you measure or define your strength.

You cannot say you are strong simply because you are strong. It not only defies logic, but it makes the word “strong" lose its meaning in that context.

His Right to administer and exercise control over His creations does not affect His Person.

Bet you have never heard this Law "He He who exercises his rights, does no wrong!.

That's not a law or saying i agree with. If I create something, and treat my creation however i desire, does that automatically make me a good or just creator?

If I can do anything to my creation simply because i created it, then on what basis would I call myself a good or kind or just creator?

It just seems like an arbitrary title in that context when you think about it.

And the Owner of a House is who determines what is right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral!

If the owner of a house determines what is right and wrong, then is the owner also subject to those definitions of right and wrong?

If yes, then God can only be Holy based on the standards of Holiness he sets. And if No, then God cannot be Holy or unholy.. so it makes no sense to call him either.

If someone created a rule, but is not subject to the rule, then how can they give themself a title based on that rule?

A law abiding citizen is called good because they adhered to the rules. If the rule-maker is not subject to the rules, then on what basis would he be referred to as good?

If the actions of the rule maker can never be seen as bad, then on what basis would you call a rule-maker good?

How i see it, according to the theistic doctrine.. humans, who are subject to the rules of said God, are the only ones who can in fact, be Holy, or unholy.

The god who set the rules cannot be either, because Holiness can only be interpreted in light of what he determines as good or bad.. and if he isn't subject to those definitions, then he cannot be thought of as good or bad, as Holy or unholy.

He can, in theory, commit mass murder, genocide, inflict diseases for absolutely no reason.. and since he is not subject to his rules, he wouldn't be held accountable to them. And in that case, he cannot be regarded as Holy.

And we are not the ones who placed holiness on Him, it was a fact we saw on Him when He opened Himself for a brief moment.

This .... doesn't... add up... At all

God, spirit, soul, thetan, jinn, orisha, saints, holiness and all other things called “sacred” or “divine” have arbitrary definitions based on the intellect, knowledge base, and vocabulary of the person making the claim.

Not an interesting answer but it is the truth that you can observe yourself.

Let me go eat a steak, meanwhile people who like to paint red dots on their foreheads think cows are “holy” or “sacred”.

Wilgrea7:

Purity implies absence of impurities.. so what would you classify as an impurity, and how is your God devoid of said impurities?

Impurities are destroyed and burnt when they come near Him.

Go and see how His Alter and all the things in it had to be purified and cleansed, even by Himself before He could accept it as His Own. Even Moses at a point could not enter it. Exodus 40 see verse 34-35.

See how Aaron, the first high priest and the person in charge of His Alter and Tabernacle, including his sons had to clean up and be purified several times before they could work for Him! (Leviticus 8 and 9)

And when Aaron's sons made a foolish error while inside His tabernacle, how, they were burnt up

See, how only purified Aaron and sons and Moses are the only persons who could enter His Tabernacle while the population were permitted only stand outside the perimeters of the Tabernacle.

There are too many examples of His Holiness eg Burning bush event, the day God came down and spoke to the people, no one could go near the Mountain Exodus 19.

Wilgrea7:

This seems incredibly circular. You cannot define a quality, by said quality.

You can be considered strong, if you can lift let's say 100 tonnes. There has to be something by which you measure or define your strength.

You cannot say you are strong simply because you are strong. It not only defies logic, but it makes the word “strong" lose its meaning in that context.

you yourself could not define strong. You defined it by giving an example of it.

I have just given you some examples of God's Holiness up above.

Wilgrea7:

That's not a law or saying i agree with.

The Law does not require your agreement!

The Law is still The Law!

Wilgrea7:

If I create something, and treat my creation however i desire, does that automatically make me a good or just creator?

That is the hole I have dropped you in.

You decide for yourself, are you good or bad? (I don't require your answer, because whether you are good or bad I am not affected by it, but your creations are affected by it and will always be affected by it eg your phone and car etc )

So, this is an issue that is between you and your creations. It is not my business.

Wilgrea7:

If the owner of a house determines what is right and wrong, then is the owner also subject to those definitions of right and wrong?

If yes, then God can only be Holy based on the standards of Holiness he sets.

This where you learn "The Law Maker is Always above and beyond The Law He Makes. He can never be a subject of His Laws!"

And The Law Maker is still Who He is no matter what action He executes just like you are still whatever or whoever you are, no matter how you choose to deal with your creation eg phone and car.

Bro let your perspetive not be devoid read revelations 4:11-12

AllenforGOD:
Bro let your perspetive not be devoid
read revelations 4:11-12

1. This doesn't nearly attempt to address the topic of the thread

2. Revelations 4 has only 11 verses.

Dtruthspeaker:


Impurities are destroyed and burnt when they come near Him.

Go and see how His Alter and all the things in it had to be purified and cleansed, even by Himself before He could accept it as His Own. Even Moses at a point could not enter it. Exodus 40 see verse 34-35.

See how Aaron, the first high priest and the person in charge of His Alter and Tabernacle, including his sons had to clean up and be purified several times before they could work for Him! (Leviticus 8 and 9)

And when Aaron's sons made a foolish error while inside His tabernacle, how, they were burnt up

See, how only purified Aaron and sons and Moses are the only persons who could enter His Tabernacle while the population were permitted only stand outside the perimeters of the Tabernacle.

There are too many examples of His Holiness eg Burning bush event, the day God came down and spoke to the people, no one could go near the Mountain Exodus 19.

You didn't answer my question. You just went on to quote a bunch of bible verses, which still don't even attempt to address the question. If you're going to evade questions, just let me know. Anyways, since you evaded the question, let me help you out by repeating it.

Purity implies absence of impurities.. so

1) what would you classify as an impurity, and

2) how is your God devoid of said impurities?

I've broken it down for you so you can comprehend it better.

you yourself could not define strong. You defined it by giving an example of it.

I have just given you some examples of God's Holiness up above.

Things are defined in relation to other things Mr Man. I defined strength in that context, in relation to how many tonnes you can lift. Your ability to lift that certain number of tonnes is an indication of physical strength.

The Law does not require your agreement!

The Law is still The Law!

I don't understand what you're talking about. Who's law? What law? What constitution enforces it? Why are you even trying to make a point out of it? You know what? Nevermind.

That is the hole I have dropped you in.

Congratulations.

You decide for yourself, are you good or bad? (I don't require your answer, because whether you are good or bad I am not affected by it, but your creations are affected by it and will always be affected by it eg your phone and car etc )

So, this is an issue that is between you and your creations. It is not my business.

I don't think you seem to get the point. Giving myself any title, simply for the sake of giving myself a title, does not in any way, make it true. Unless your definition of something is based on other well-defined parameters, then it has no meaning.

I can call myself strong, because of the parameters listed, which is being able to lift several tonnes. If i can't hold a feather, and I call myself strong, the word loses its meaning.

This where you learn "The Law Maker is Always above and beyond The Law He Makes. He can never be a subject of His Laws!"

If he is not subject to the laws, then he cannot be defined by the laws either.

And The Law Maker is still Who He is no matter what action He executes just like you are still whatever or whoever you are, no matter how you choose to deal with your creation eg phone and car.

You seem to have ignored the majority of the analogies i presented earlier, only to come here and regurgitate the same narrative again. If you want to have a honest debate, go through all the points before writing a response, rather than cherrypicking and ignoring the bulk of the message.

That being said, your claim that the law maker is still who he is regardless of how he treats his creation makes zero sense. If the names you call yourself are not based on well-defined factors or parameters, then the names have no meaning.

Going by your logic, your god is loving, holy, righteous, kind, and caring, not because it exhibits the traits associated with these characters, but simply because it calls itself so. And in that case, all those titles lose their meaning. And therefore, your god cannot be any of them

Wilgrea7:

You didn't answer my question. You just went on to quote a bunch of bible verses, which still don't even attempt to address the question.

That is the same thing you did when you could not say what strong was. You defined "strong" in terms of its action in "lifting 100 tonnes".

I defined Holiness by showing you where it was at work exactly as your strong guy "lifting 100 tonnes".

Wilgrea7:

I don't understand what you're talking about. Who's law? What law? What constitution enforces it? Why are you even trying to make a point out of it? You know what? Nevermind.

See how you don't know much!

Do you not know that it is a Law that you must eat herbs and meat and not wood and stone, whether you agree or not? Or that you, the male, can never get pregnant with child whether you agree or not?

And that this Laws have been enforced already by The Law Makers Constitution? (I am certain you thought you were the only ones who can make a Constitution )

Wilgrea7:

I don't think you seem to get the point. Giving myself any title, simply for the sake of giving myself a title, does not in any way, make it true.

The only things who need whatever you say or don't say to be True are your creations (phones and cars) because they are the ones who will always be affected about what you say AND DO!

Any other thing outside your control does not give a sh.it whether what you say is True or not!

Wilgrea7:

If he is not subject to the laws, then he cannot be defined by the laws either.

If He has made a Law defining Himself, He has defined Himself!

Wilgrea7:

You seem to have ignored the majority of the analogies ...

I argue on the points and not on the accompanying talks supporting the point.

Wilgrea7:

Going by your logic, your god is loving, holy, righteous, kind, and caring, not because[b] it exhibits[/b] the traits associated with these characters, but simply because it calls itself so. And in that case, all those titles lose their meaning...

And there you are ignoring all the good and sweet and loving things He has done (exhibited) already.

1. He put us in this very sweet beautiful and pleasant House we call earth which we all have confessed that this place is good AND NOT IN A PLACE THAT IS LIKE VOLCANO (HELL/LAKE OF FIRE). AS YOU PEOPLE DO

2 In this House, He endured that Sweet Food is provided daily (Rice, Beans Eba, Pounded Yam, Fish, Meat) with even small chops and snacks berries, tiger nuts, dates etc and Juice eg orange, mango, pineapple, barley INSTEAD OF LIVING YOU STARVING. AS YOU PEOPLE DO.

3) He even gave us control and authority over House RATHER THAN MAKE US SLAVES. AS YOU PEOPLE DO.

And these are just the opening beginnings of the exhibition of His Great Goodnesses and Love and Kindnesses which He even gave us, yet you almost say that He did not exhibit any goodness or love or kindness.

So, you see, you people are evil and cannot see things which are good which is why it is impossible for you to see God because you are blinded by the fullness of evil in you, which is why you are the bonafide children of satan, which is why you are anti God because you know that when He decides to handle you people, YOU ARE DEAD AND FINISHED!

And this is what makes you children of Satan aka atheists very very Stupid!

He said theists not Christians. We need other religion followers input

Wilgrea7:
Hey everyone,

So I've been thinking about this Holiness thing for a while. This is primarily geared towards the Christian and Muslim faiths, but other views are more than welcomed as well. Ok.. Down to business.

The claim of Holiness is one that seems to be an integral part of the abrahamic faiths. God is supposedly holy, and you should strive to be like him and whatnot.

But my question is, how exactly is your God Holy? What exactly makes Him/It holy?

Is God holy because he has/can do no evil, or is he holy because nothing he does can be considered evil?

As an example, we have stories of the Abrahamic God allegedly drowning people in floods, ordering the slaughtering of entire cities in his name, sending bears to maul children, ordering the stoning of people for little offences, planning to torch people for eternity, and so on. The list goes on and on.

These actions, if performed by any human, would be immediately deemed bad and immoral. But if your God does it, It's completely fine. Then on what basis do you award this deity the title of Holiness?

One of the most common responses I've heard, is that we're his creation, and therefore he can do whatever he pleases. If that's the case, then why call him Holy? It just seems like an arbitrary title with no much meaning behind it.

He could make every single person suffer the most excruciating pains for millions of years and still be considered Holy. He could cause all children to die from terrible diseases, and you would say he has the right, since we're his creation.

If that's the case, If your God can allegedly do whatever he wants with humans since he created them, then on what basis would you ascribe Holiness to him? What exactly would you define as Holiness?

Looking forward to your responses

Holiness is just an ATTRIBUTE of the Creator as the STANDARD of perfection, measurement and nature.

Thus a holy item is that that is reserved/dedicated to the Creator.

A holy person is one whose life is reserved/dedicated to the Creator.

As per God's nature as HOLY: it simply means that WHATEVER He does is EXACT and PERFECT. This includes when God destroys a city or even allows a baby to die (for death is just a transition into another life)!

.

Okay, anyone that believes in God's called a theist?

Lamanii22:
Okay, anyone that believes in God's called a theist?

Yeah. A personal God to be precise. One that intervenes in the affairs of humans

Dtruthspeaker:


That is the same thing you did when you could not say what strong was. You defined "strong" in terms of its action in "lifting 100 tonnes".

I defined Holiness by showing you where it was at work exactly as your strong guy "lifting 100 tonnes".

They're not the same thing. Not even close. The fact that I have to explain this further is somewhat concerning.

I've said several times that words can only have meanings in relation to well-defined parameters.

Strength in that context, draws it meaning from the ability to lift certain things/weights, which is why I used the 100 tons example.

You said Holiness is devoid of impurities. Meaning Holiness draws it's meaning from the absence of impurities. I asked you what things are considered impurities to your god, and how he is devoid of them. You avoided the question twice.

You only went on to give meaningless examples of how people had to be purified without specifying what they were purified from, or how your God is free from all possible impurities, which you have also failed to define. You're running round in circles and it's tiring.

See how you don't know much!

Do you not know that it is a Law that you must eat herbs and meat and not wood and stone, whether you agree or not? Or that you, the male, can never get pregnant with child whether you agree or not?

And that this Laws have been enforced already by The Law Makers Constitution? (I am certain you thought you were the only ones who can make a Constitution )

This thread isn't about meaningless arbitrary laws, so i won't dwell on this.

The only things who need whatever you say or don't say to be True are your creations (phones and cars) because they are the ones who will always be affected about what you say AND DO!

Any other thing outside your control does not give a sh.it whether what you say is True or not!

You seemed to have either completely missed my point, or completely ignored it. Kindly read it again and come and respond.

If He has made a Law defining Himself, He has defined Himself!

Then he is subject to the definition. If that's the case, then he is subject to the criteria by which he defines Holiness.

I argue on the points and not on the accompanying talks supporting the point.

Congratulations. So that's how you justify your cherry-picking. Welldone.

And there you are ignoring all the good and sweet and loving things He has done (exhibited) already.

1. He put us in this very sweet beautiful and pleasant House we call earth which we all have confessed that this place is good AND NOT IN A PLACE THAT IS LIKE VOLCANO (HELL/LAKE OF FIRE). AS YOU PEOPLE DO

2 In this House, He endured that Sweet Food is provided daily (Rice, Beans Eba, Pounded Yam, Fish, Meat) with even small chops and snacks berries, tiger nuts, dates etc and Juice eg orange, mango, pineapple, barley INSTEAD OF LIVING YOU STARVING. AS YOU PEOPLE DO.

3) He even gave us control and authority over House RATHER THAN MAKE US SLAVES. AS YOU PEOPLE DO.

And these are just the opening beginnings of the exhibition of His Great Goodnesses and Love and Kindnesses which He even gave us, yet you almost say that He did not exhibit any goodness or love or kindness.

1. The whole "As you people do" analogy makes absolutely no sense. What do you mean by "you people"?

2. You're trying to eat your cake and have it. Pick a side. If God is good because of where he put the earth, or how he created it, then his goodness is dependent on his actions in creation. It cannot be an arbitrary title given for the sake of given titles. If that's the case, his alleged Holiness has to be dependent on well-defined parameters, rather than a name he just gave himself. Pick a side.

So, you see, you people are evil and cannot see things which are good which is why it is impossible for you to see God because you are blinded by the fullness of evil in you, which is why you are the bonafide children of satan, which is why you are anti God because you know that when He decides to handle you people, YOU ARE DEAD AND FINISHED!

Kpele o

And this is what makes you children of Satan aka atheists very very Stupid!

Thanks. We try our best.

Always a pleasure to hear from you

TenQ:

Holiness is just an ATTRIBUTE of the Creator as the STANDARD of perfection, measurement and nature.
Thus a holy item is that that is reserved/dedicated to the Creator.

A holy person is one whose life is reserved/dedicated to the Creator.

As per God's nature as HOLY: it simply means that WHATEVER He does is EXACT and PERFECT. This includes when God destroys a city or even allows a baby to die (for death is just a transition into another life)!

So if I'm getting this correctly (and as usual, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), Holiness is a measure of perfection. And God is perfect, not because he adheres to any defined laws, but because whatever he does, regardless of what he does, is considered perfect?

In that case, perfection, which is the measure of holiness has become arbitrary, rather than fixed, since whatever God does, is always perfect. In that case, doesn't the word lose its meaning?

If I told you I am kind for example, not because I do good things for people, but because whatever I do, has to be considered kind, wouldn't the word lose its meaning?

If i went around whipping people, beating them and destroying properties, would that be considered kind? If God "sets" the standard for perfection, and the standard is defined by "whatever he does", then how exactly is that a standard?

Wilgrea7:
Always a pleasure to hear from you



So if I'm getting this correctly (and as usual, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), Holiness is a measure of perfection. And God is perfect, not because he adheres to any defined laws, but because whatever he does, regardless of what he does, is considered perfect?

In that case, perfection, which is the measure of holiness has become arbitrary, rather than fixed, since whatever God does, is always perfect. In that case, doesn't the word lose its meaning?

If I told you I am kind for example, not because I do good things for people, but because whatever I do, has to be considered kind, wouldn't the word lose its meaning?

If i went around whipping people, beating them and destroying properties, would that be considered kind? If God "sets" the standard for perfection, and the standard is defined by "whatever he does", then how exactly is that a standard?

Perfection is NOT arbitrary: perfection is measured only according to God's Will and Purpose.

As a computer engineer, when I disassemble a computer, for the purpose of scrapping it, it may look to the family of computers as wickedness UNFORTUNATELY, it isn't their decision to make. All that matters is my purpose. I can do whatever I desire with MY computers and whatever I do as long as it achieves my objectives is perfect.

So it is with God.

God as Creator can choose to execute whatever He desires on any of His creations and it would be perfect.

When I cut the grass on my lawn, to the grass family , it is wickedness but I as the lawn owner, I ALONE decides what is right or wrong to be done to my grasses according to my purpose.

I guess you comprehend this!


Whatever and Anything God does is PERFECT (Holy)

A man is Holy when he aligns with God's perfect will and Purpose for his life.

TenQ:

Perfection is NOT arbitrary: perfection is measured only according to God's Will and Purpose.

But isn't that exactly what makes it arbitrary? If it was based on clearly well-defined parameters, then it would be a fixed thing. But you said it is measured according to God's will. Whatever God wills is considered perfect. If we wills the torture of humans, that also would be considered perfect. If he turned around and willed the enjoyment and bliss of humans, that also would be considered perfect.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't see how that isn't arbitrary. If perfection, or right and wrong is dependent on whatever he does, or says it is, rather than a fixed standard, then that in itself, is the definition of arbitrary.

As a computer engineer, when I disassemble a computer, for the purpose of scrapping it, it may look to the family of computers as wickedness UNFORTUNATELY, it isn't their decision to make. All that matters is my purpose. I can do whatever I desire with MY computers and whatever I do as long as it achieves my objectives is perfect.

I really love this example. You mentioned the purpose, or reason for disassembling the computer. So let's say for example, the family of computers don't know why you disassembled it. So to them, it would be evil. But the only reason that would make your disassembling of the computer good, or evil, would be your reason behind it. Let me give a few instances

1. You disassembled the computer simply because you don't like how it looks
2. You disassembled it because you found a dangerous component that could cause it to explode and destroy others
3. You disassembled it because you wanted to burn it to ash for your amusement.

In all these situations, I'm not disputing the fact that you ARE the owner of the computer and have the ability to do with it as you desire. What I'm arguing is whether or not your actions, or at least the motive behind them, would qualify you to say if you were a good computer engineer or not.

Let me take it a step further. Let's say the reason you dismantled the computer was not known to the family of computers. In that case, then on what basis would they, or anyone else call you a good computer engineer?

The word good means something. If you were to call yourself that name, there would have to be a reason behind it. If the reason is unknown, then why should anyone call you good?

So it is with God.

God as Creator can choose to execute whatever He desires on any of His creations and it would be perfect.

When I cut the grass on my lawn, to the grass family , it is wickedness but I as the lawn owner, I ALONE decides what is right or wrong to be done to my grasses according to my purpose.

I guess you comprehend this!

I understand, but that's exactly what I'm saying. If you alone decide what is right and wrong, and whatever you do is considered right, then the words have no meaning in respect to you. If nothing you do can be considered wrong, then what then is right, and what then is wrong? If wrong cannot exist in respect to you, then how can right exist?

If whatever God does is automatically Holy, and nothing he does or could possibly do, can be considered unholy, then how can holiness and unholiness exist in respect to him? Those words can only have meaning in respect to the creation, who are bound by what he sets as right and wrong, not him.

That's why i said earlier, that the way I see it, it seems God lacks the capacity to be holy, or unholy, since nothing he does can be considered unholy. Without the possibility of unholiness, holiness has no meaning. Without the possibility of wrong, how can right have meaning?

Whatever and Anything God does is PERFECT (Holy)

A man is Holy when he aligns with God's perfect will and Purpose for his life.

Wilgrea7:

They're not the same thing. ...

That is one of the problems with you, you can get very unreasonable and unjust exactly as most atheist do.

You defined what "strong" is by showing it in action via example, I do the same and you say it is not the same thing and that it is a "meaningless example".

Perfect definition of the atheist unreasonablility and lack of fair play.

You just prove that you have nothing valid and reasonable to say here for the examples speaks for themselves exactly as your strong guy lifting up 100 tonnes example.

Wilgrea7:

This thread isn't about meaningless arbitrary laws, so i won't dwell on this.

This thread is about life and death. And where there is life and death, Law is there!

Wilgrea7:

You seemed to have either completely missed my point, or completely ignored it. Kindly read it again and come and respond.

Just say you have no valid answer to give.

Wilgrea7:

Then he is subject to the definition. If that's the case, then he is subject to the criteria by which he defines Holiness.

And His Actions (Acts/Example) and Words (Law/Commands) have shown His criteria and definition.

Wilgrea7:

Congratulations. So that's how you justify your cherry-picking. Welldone.

Arguments are based on the points and not on the many talks supporting one point.

Wilgrea7:

1. The whole "As you people do" analogy makes absolutely no sense. What do you mean by "you people"?

Leave that one. This argument is not about "as you people do".

Wilgrea7:

2. You're trying to eat your cake and have it. Pick a side. If God is good because of where he put the earth, or how he created it, then his goodness is dependent on his actions in creation.

And His Actions have proven it! So no road here.

Wilgrea7:

It cannot be an arbitrary title given for the sake of given titles. If that's the case, his alleged Holiness has to be dependent on well-defined parameters, rather than a name he just gave himself. Pick a side...

Are you the one who gave the name and title "strong"? No

So also, we are not the ones giving the title "Holy". Like you and your description of strong, we too just described what we have seen Holy to be.

End of story.

Wilgrea7:
...So let's say for example, the family of computers don't know why you disassembled it. So to them, it would be evil...

In all these situations, I'm not disputing the fact that you ARE the owner of the computer and have the ability to do with it as you desire. What I'm arguing is whether or not your actions, or at least the motive behind them, would qualify you to say if you were a good computer engineer or not.

Even the phone or device you use to air your stupidity comes from a family and it did not cross your mind to return it to its family. You are using it as you like and will do whatever you desire to do over it.

Which is why I told you The Law;

"He who exercises his rights does no wrong"!

which you have acknowledged above in saying you respect the owner of the creation (computer) and his ability to do with it as he desires.

Dtruthspeaker:


That is one of the problems with you, you can get very unreasonable and unjust exactly as most atheist do.

Thanks. Calling me unreasonable does nothing to strengthen your argument.

You defined what "strong" is by showing it in action via example, I do the same and you say it is not the same thing and that it is a "meaningless example".

Perfect definition of the atheist unreasonablility and lack of fair play.

I defined strength based on the ability to lift heavy stuff, and gave lifting 100 tonnes as an example. You defined holiness as the absence of impurities and constantly avoided my question to clearly define what the impurities are, and how your god is devoid of them. And I'm the one who's unreasonable?

You just prove that you have nothing valid and reasonable to say here for the examples speaks for themselves exactly as your strong guy lifting up 100 tonnes example.

This thread is about life and death. And where there is life and death, Law is there!

This thread is about the claim that your god is holy. It literally says that in the title.

And His Actions (Acts/Example) and Words (Law/Commands) have shown His criteria and definition.

What are you saying? Are you not the one that said he is not subject to the laws he created? Then how can his holiness be based on that? If his holiness is based on his actions, and whatever he does, regardless of what he does is considered holy, then how does the word holiness have any meaning in respect to him?

Arguments are based on the points and not on the many talks supporting one point.

You have constantly dodged questions, and ignored rebuttals to your points, simply to regurgitate the points all over again. And yet I'm the unreasonable one.

Are you the one who gave the name and title "strong"? No

So also, we are not the ones giving the title "Holy". Like you and your description of strong, we too just described what we have seen Holy to be.

End of story.

You've not. I've been asking you to define holiness, but you've been running round in circles. The farthest you went, was to say holiness was the absence of impurities.

Dtruthspeaker:


Holiness refers to purity and cleanliness of the highest quality and kind.

And God's Holiness is of a very fine pure matter that is full of Burning Power which is intolerable of anything and everything that is unclean, even of the slightest atom of dirt.

When asked to further define what constitutes uncleanliness, you begin to run round in circles. And yet, I'm the unreasonable one.

Dtruthspeaker:


Even the phone or device you use to air your stupidity comes from a family and it did not cross your mind to return it to its family. You are using it as you like and will do whatever you desire to do over it.

Which is why I told you The Law;

"He who exercises his rights does no wrong"!

which you have acknowledged above in saying you respect the owner of the creation (computer) and his ability to do with it as he desires.

If someone can do no wrong, or rather, if the things someone does can never be considered wrong, then how then can they be considered right?

If nothing your God does can ever be considered wrong, regardless of what it is, then how then can anything he does be considered right? How can right exist without the possibility of wrong? How can good exist without the possibility of bad? How can holiness exist without the possibility of unholiness?

Wilgrea7:

Is God holy because he has/can do no evil, or is he holy because nothing he does can be considered evil?

The word HOLY connotes the completeness of purity!

My God is holy because no one can beat His IQ, when He speaks you can only reject His ideas out of stubbornness you can never find a better opinion than His own!

MaxInDHouse:


The word HOLY connotes the completeness of purity!

My God is holy because no one can beat His IQ, when He speaks you can only reject His ideas out of stubbornness you can never find a better opinion than His own!

Does holiness come from purity or IQ? Choose one.

Secondly.. if Holiness comes from purity.. then what does it mean to be pure? What are examples of impurities and how is your God free from them?

Wilgrea7:

Does holiness come from purity or IQ? Choose one.

Both works together, you can't prove someone has IQ whereas his thinking faculty is impure!

Wilgrea7:

Secondly.. if Holiness comes from purity.. then what does it mean to be pure? What are examples of impurities and how is your God free from them?

When we talk about what is pure it simply means what you can't find it's equivalent, it's value is of the highest degree.

Impurities are found everywhere!
When two person speaks the same language but failed to live peacefully that language is NOT PURE.
When a man and a woman had sexual relations and end up with STDs it means their relationship is NOT PURE!
When a pandemic occur due to a certain experiment it means such activity is NOT PURE!
I can go on and on to tell you so many impurities affecting our lives on this planet negatively and my God has proved that His is free from all these by setting standards that will promote sound health {Act 15:28-29} but since we live among people who don't believe in my God they infect everyone in our neighborhood including us.
In fact that's why my own God promised that He is coming to remove those ruining our planet home: EARTH! Revelations 11:18