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Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by TenQ: 9:32am On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


Wilgrea7 has repeatedly said he is not an atheist.
My response was to Dthruthspeaker and generic in nature.

Atheists want a God that can be reduced to the level of laboratory instruments:
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Dtruthspeaker: 9:42am On Aug 24, 2022
TenQ:

if ONE bacteria out of a million decided to commit genocide against other bacteria in the colony: this would be EVIL!

What if LordReed decides to murder hundreds of millions of Bacteria in his toilet, would that be Evil?

grin
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Dtruthspeaker: 9:44am On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


Wilgrea7 has repeatedly said he is not an atheist.

His actions, words and disposition clearly proves that he is one!
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by MaxInDHouse(m): 9:48am On Aug 24, 2022
Faith in God is all about Holiness and holiness connotes purity, when we say something is PURE it simply means we can't find it's match not that hypocrites won't speak against it but ask for a replacement its then you will know that they are just arguing blindly!

JEHOVAH the God of Israel claims to be Holy not that faithless individuals won't have something to say against Him but no matter their complaint they will never ever meet up with the standard Jehovah set that is yielding positivity among His WITNESSES!

This is what HOLINESS means! smiley
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 10:02am On Aug 24, 2022
TenQ:

My response was to Dthruthspeaker and generic in nature.

Atheists want a God that can be reduced to the level of laboratory instruments:

Well what use is a god that can't show up in any way?
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 10:04am On Aug 24, 2022
Dtruthspeaker:


His actions, words and disposition clearly proves that he is one!

So even if he when he says he believes there is an intelligent designer, he's still an atheist because he doesn't believe in your brand of god?

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by MaxInDHouse(m): 10:15am On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


So even if he when he says he believes there is an intelligent designer, he's still an atheist because he doesn't believe in your brand of god?
Atheism has been erroneously described as lack of belief in deities but the truth is that anyone who can't decipher holiness as in purity in anyone is indisputably an atheist! wink
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Image123(m): 12:25pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


Well what use is a god that can't show up in any way?

Show up for what again? Billions of people give "testimony" of how God showed up for them. How many shows gaan gaan.
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 12:35pm On Aug 24, 2022
MaxInDHouse:

Atheism has been erroneously described as lack of belief in deities but the truth is that anyone who can't decipher holiness as in purity in anyone is indisputably an atheist! wink

LoLz. So if you are not a mind reader you are an atheist? I laugh in Swahili. Bwahahahahaha!
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Wilgrea7(m): 12:36pm On Aug 24, 2022
TenQ:

Let me use your analogy of the shoemaker to restate this:

A shoemaker made a special shoe (to commemorate an event). He ended up not using the shoe because he found a flaw with it
1. He could decide to destroy the shoe.
2. He could decide to keep the shoe and even put it in show glass for public viewing.

Whatever he does with HIS show is his BUSINESS and would be HIS GOOD thing to do.

As a Third party, I could FEEL that the Shoe's flaw is grievous and so DESTROY (when the Maker had chosen to keep the shoe). My ACTION of destroying the Shoe is thus EVIL/BAD!

Secondly,

As a Third party, I could FEEL that even though the Shoe has flaws that is grievous the shoe could be exhibited because it was made for commemorating an even (when the Maker had chosen to completely destroy the shoe as unfit). My ACTION of keeping the Shoe is thus BAD!

With respect to God: It is my actions and inactions that turn to be good/bad , evil or excellent if and only if it aligns with the WILL of the Creator!

But this is exactly what I said. It is only the actions of the third parties, which in the case of a God, the creations, that can be seen as good or bad.

I don't see how the actions of the shoemaker, or a God, which are, and will always be backed by reasons, can be good, or bad. Especially since in the case of God, the reasons are the criteria by which good and bad are judged.

If the possibility of an action deviating from the reasons of the shoemaker/God cannot exist, then on what basis would the action be called right or wrong?

That's why I said going by the concept you proposed, your God simply cannot be Holy, or unholy.

If Holiness is based on alignment with his reason, and his actions are always backed by reasons, irrespective of what they are, then classifying them as holy or unholy simply doesn't make sense.

His actions can't also be classified as perfect because there can be no deviation from what he intends to do. His actions and his reason cannot be separated from each other, and hence, the former cannot be judged based on the latter. And because of that, it makes no sense to ascribe titles like holiness or perfection to him.



There are TWO frames of Reference for our understanding of good and evil.

1. God's own REFERENCE
2. Human Reference.

Unfortunately, humans are limited so that oftentimes their good is God's evil.

Let me give a little illustration:
A young man and woman love themselves and they are sexually attracted to each other.
1. God's own Reference:
Sex is permitted only within the confines of Marriage.

2. Human perspective:
But they are both adults who are genuinely sexually attracted to each other, and sex is another means by which the show love to themselves. And they will even put on condoms to prevent pregnancy and STIs! Both will enjoy the act and no one is getting hurt!

Which of these two positions is RIGHT and which is WRONG!

This is an issue of subjective morality vs objective morality. Of course, if a God is seen as the highest possible power, and the arbiter of good and evil, then his definition of good at that point in time is what flies.

I don't have an issue with right and wrong in that context. I could still bring up an argument or two in favor of the humans.. but i think that's another debate entirely
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 12:37pm On Aug 24, 2022
Image123:


Show up for what again? Billions of people give "testimony" of how God showed up for them. How many shows gaan gaan.

Your fellow believer said your god cannot be seen in a lab so go ask him.
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Dtruthspeaker: 1:02pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


So even if he when he says he believes there is an intelligent designer, he's still an atheist because he doesn't believe in your brand of god?

We can see that he does not truly believe in his intelligent designer nor ever lays on it.

No where does he act on his belief thereby confirming the truth of this quote

"He does not believe that does not live according to his belief." Thomas Fuller

His living and words and actions rather shows that his belief is anti-God aka atheism.
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Image123(m): 1:05pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


Your fellow believer said your god cannot be seen in a lab so go ask him.

You need God in a lab for what, assistant?
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 1:10pm On Aug 24, 2022
Image123:


You need God in a lab for what, assistant?

As I said ask your fellow believer.
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Wilgrea7(m): 1:10pm On Aug 24, 2022
TenQ:
I don't know whether it is delibrate or not, I find it offensive when GOD is written as "god". If you can't capitalize the first letter, then I assume you refer to something else. If Wilgre7 is a name, then wilgrea7 is an insult!

Not my intention. Sometimes I'm in a hurry when I'm typing.. and don't bother to capitalize G's... But also, I thought God was more of a title than a name. Anyways.. point taken


God has given us rules by which to measure our actions as good or evil.
1. Your conscience
2. The Scripture
-Love the Lord your God with everything
-Love your Neighbor as yourself
-Direct commands (ten commandments, forgiveness etc)
3. Common sense

The use of these three make you ALWAYS be on the side of GOODNESS.

I think this goes back to the analogy of perception of the creator vs perception of the created.

On one hand, you have good and evil being based on the reasons/purpose of the creator

And on the other hand, you have good and bad being based on the 3 rules you listed above.

Do you realize that it is entirely possible, for the thing we consider good, based on your 3 rules.. to be considered bad if the reasons/purpose of your God by any means runs in opposition to them? Let me explain.

If your God can take any action, and those actions will always have reasons behind them, and the reasons are the final and highest criteria for what good and evil should be (as you've said), then it is entirely possible for your God to take an action which would change the definition of good and evil, and therefore make something we consider good, based on the 3 rules, to be considered bad.

As far as the 3 criteria go.. at least 2 of them .. conscience and reason, can be used to justify a number of things from our perspective. The case of the 2 adolescents are a good exmaple.

And the 3rd reason.. which are the words in scripture.. are words written based on his reasons/purpose at a point in time. Since he can take any action which will be based on reasons which must be considered the new highest authority, then his new purpose or reasons could in fact counter what was previously written in the bible.

It is like the story of the shoemaker which we both gave, where they can later decide to keep, or destroy the shoe. Whatever reason they finally agree on, becomes the criteria to judge if the subordinates or 3rd parties were right or wrong

The highest purpose with respect of Creations is SET and DEFINED by God. God's creation were made only by Him and for Himself alone.

Therefore, even if you don't agree with God's decisions, it's your cup of tea as ultimately, WISDOM and FOOLISHNESS is defined by aligning your WILL and DEEDs with God's!

For the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to grant the first paragraph. But i think we need to clearly define what we mean by “highest purpose".

From what I've gathered in this discussion.. the highest purpose is not some fixed thing that all actions have to measure themselves up to.

The highest purpose, is whatever reason is behind whatever actions your God takes. No matter what purpose or reason he bases his actions on, that automatically becomes the highest purpose.. and that's why I said it's arbitrary.
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 1:11pm On Aug 24, 2022
Dtruthspeaker:


We can see that he does not truly believe in his intelligent designer nor ever lays on it.

No where does he act on his belief thereby confirming the truth of this quote

"He does not believe that does not live according to his belief." Thomas Fuller

His living and words and actions rather shows that his belief is anti-God aka atheism.


How does he need to act on his belief? What act besides writing on NL have you presented to us here about your faith?
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Image123(m): 1:15pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


As I said ask your fellow believer.

Does he/she need God in the lab?
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Wilgrea7(m): 1:27pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:


Wilgrea7 has repeatedly said he is not an atheist.

They've forced the title on me so many times I've gotten tired of telling them I'm not grin

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by MaxInDHouse(m): 1:29pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:

LoLz. So if you are not a mind reader you are an atheist? I laugh in Swahili. Bwahahahahaha!
If you can't trust anyone then there's no need trying to reason with them on what they have in mind, that's the stupidity in atheism as you guys always try to reason with others regarding what they BELIEVE (TRUST) whereas you can't trust anyone. So why chatting with people who believe (trust) when you have no reason to trust? smiley
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Dtruthspeaker: 1:30pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:

How does he need to act on his belief?

He has already finished displaying (acting) his belief already and we have seen them.

LordReed:

What act besides writing on NL have you presented to us here about your faith?

Even you once told image123 of my stand (faith) when you told him that "I believe in God yet I don't go to church". You and others here definitely know where my belief lies.

So, no road!
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by MaxInDHouse(m): 1:32pm On Aug 24, 2022
Wilgrea7:

They've forced the title on me so many times I've gotten tired of telling them I'm not grin
Of course you're an atheist but the description is what's confusing you!
You don't know anyone who is Holy (Pure) neither do you believe that anyone could be Holy (Pure) so that means you only trust in yourself: ATHEISTM! smiley
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Dtruthspeaker: 1:37pm On Aug 24, 2022
Wilgrea7:


They've forced the title on me so many times I've gotten tired of telling them I'm not grin

You obviously have not learned that "action speaks louder and better and Truer than words". grin

And everyone knows that atheists say one thing and do another.

And when all else fails, atheists will resort to lying and twisting all of these things you have done grin so you see, you are a bona fide member of atheism. grin
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Wilgrea7(m): 1:37pm On Aug 24, 2022
Dtruthspeaker:


We can see that he does not truly believe in his intelligent designer nor ever lays on it.

No where does he act on his belief thereby confirming the truth of this quote

"He does not believe that does not live according to his belief." Thomas Fuller

His living and words and actions rather shows that his belief is anti-God aka atheism.


Mr Man. When did i ever tell you that my belief involves an intelligent designer

In my thread on questions about a supreme creator God, i said that from observation, whatever the cause of the universe was, seemed to me to be at least conscious, and intelligent, and after some discussions with TenQ, i agreed that it would have to be infinitely powerful.. at least from our perspective.

Other attributes.. like saying it's a single creator, or a personal one.. or even a “being" were things i said i haven't seen evidence for.

Your concept of God isn't the only one that exists. For you, and especially MaxinDhouse to repeatedly claim that I'm anti-god, simply because my views oppose yours, shows how myopic your concept of a what a God is.

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Wilgrea7(m): 1:38pm On Aug 24, 2022
Dtruthspeaker:

so you see, you are a bona fide member of atheism. grin

Congratulations

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by Maynman: 1:42pm On Aug 24, 2022
Theists thinking calling someone else an atheist is a flex, bwahahahah.
That’s what indoctrination and brainwashing does grin
Not to forget those that their salvation relies on humans in watchtower grin
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 1:47pm On Aug 24, 2022
Dtruthspeaker:


He has already finished displaying (acting) his belief already and we have seen them.



Even you once told image123 of my stand (faith) when you told him that "I believe in God yet I don't go to church". You and others here definitely know where my belief lies.

So, no road!

Only because you wrote it, I don't know if what you wrote is actual. If we are accepting your faith based on what you wrote why denying someone else's faith based on what they wrote? Can you not see how hypocritical that is?

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 1:48pm On Aug 24, 2022
MaxInDHouse:

If you can't trust anyone then there's no need trying to reason with them on what they have in mind, that's the stupidity in atheism as you guys always try to reason with others regarding what they BELIEVE (TRUST) whereas you can't trust anyone. So why chatting with people who believe (trust) when you have no reason to trust? smiley

LoLz! So you only trust those who you can read their minds? Bwahahahahaha!

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 1:49pm On Aug 24, 2022
Wilgrea7:


They've forced the title on me so many times I've gotten tired of telling them I'm not grin

I salute your patience and grace in interacting with these guys, they are so ungracious in return it irks me.

2 Likes

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 1:50pm On Aug 24, 2022
Image123:


Does he/she need God in the lab?

LordReed:


As I said ask your fellow believer.

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by MaxInDHouse(m): 2:02pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:

LoLz! So you only trust those who you can read their minds? Bwahahahahaha!

YES! smiley
Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by LordReed(m): 2:14pm On Aug 24, 2022
MaxInDHouse:


YES! smiley

Well good for you.

1 Like

Re: Theists, What Exactly Makes Your God "Holy"? by MaxInDHouse(m): 2:16pm On Aug 24, 2022
LordReed:

Well good for you.
That's why we can relate as brothers and sisters {Mark 10:29-30} despite the fact that imperfection do affect us we still have a reason to believe (trust) in our fellow believers! John 17:22 wink

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