advanceDNA:
1. u are always looking for opportunity to invalidate peoples opinions which makes u miss context... i never mentioned that those before jesus had access to the kingdom...i dont know how or why u brought this up

2. Please..without sounding condescending and obnoxious... what false did i hold on to as u claimed?? Can u point out what false about what i said.? Without adding extra like when the kingdom became open. The op is asking : if jesus is the way to the kingdom...how will those before him enter since they never had the chance to hear or believe or obey jesus ....whther the kingdom open 5000 years ago or after Jesus' death

1. The OP asked about Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell which are both of the Kingdom of God. Justification according to Jesus Christ is as stated in the Gospel, a standard that was lost to man since Adam until Jesus Christ came and offered it again much later.

advanceDNA:
Going by the bible... paul said its not the hearers or belivers of the word that is righteous but those that obey or the doers...same thing jesus said...that it is those that obey my words that truly love me and will be justified....

So it doesnt really matter weda you heard the words of righteousness from jesus or from noah or Daniel or jonah, ..whoever God sent during your time or dispensation....did you obey....??

2. the statement in bold above is from you, isn't it? I am saying it matters "weda" you heard the words of righteousness from Jesus or from Noah or Daniel or Jonah... because the message was never the same from all of them, to begin with so it is wrong to assume the standard the same.

OkCornel:
Study Revelation 20. The Great white throne judgment is for the second resurrection. It does not involve believers. Everyone will be judged according to their works in the great white throne judgment.

I did. And what you call the great white throne judgment is what Jesus Christ described in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. That is the one and only judgement to come.

The first resurrection to take place is that which is the resurrection of the Jews, the second is the resurrection of those who are of the Kingdom of God.

Kobojunkie:
I did. And what you call the great white throne judgment is what Jesus Christ described in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46.

The first resurrection to take place is that which is the resurrection of the Jews, the second is the resurrection of those who are of the Kingdom of God.

And who are the partakers of the first resurrection in Revelation 20

Hint: “Blessed and holy are those who partake of the first resurrection”

OkCornel:
And who are the partakers of the first resurrection in Revelation 20
Hint: “Blessed and holy are those who partake of the first resurrection”

The Jewish Christians, beginning with the disciples, those who were chosen by God from the stock of Israel, the same to rule with Jesus Christ over the 12 tribes of Israel?

Kobojunkie:
1. The OP asked about Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell which are both of the Kingdom of God. Justification according to Jesus Christ is as stated in the Gospel, a standard that was lost to man since Adam until Jesus Christ came and offered it again much later.
2. the statement in bold above is from you, isn't it? I am saying it matters "weda" you heard the words of righteousness from Jesus or from Noah or Daniel or Jonah... because the message was never the same from all of them, to begin with so it is wrong to assume the standard the same.

Sigh!!
U have added another extra...i said dont add extra because u will add another context to my earlier point....its clear u ddnt get the context of my comment.
...i never said the message of all prophets including jesus were the same...i dont know how u arrived here and use it to invalidate my opinion...

advanceDNA:
Sigh!!
U have added another extra...i said dont add extra because u will add another context to my earlier point....its clear u ddnt get the context of my comment.
...i never said the message of all prophets including jesus were the same...i dont know how u arrived here and use it to invalidate my opinion...

My bad then!

Kobojunkie:
The Jewish Christians, beginning with the disciples, those who were chosen by God from the stock of Israel, the same to rule with Jesus Christ over the 12 tribes of Israel?

Did Revelation 20 mention the partakers of the first resurrection are Jewish Christians only?

Kobojunkie:
My bad then!

Incredible....

Kobojunkie said "my bad"

There is hope for nigeria after all..

Valoromega:
Where will the people who lived before Christ came go to?
Hell or heaven

Or our ancestors that lived in Africa before Christianity came where will they go?

They said Christ is the only way and these people didn't know Christ. So where did they go?

Did the millions of people who lived before Christ came all go to hell?

Your question has already being answered in the book of Romans

Romans 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Jesus christ said nobody can come to him except the father brings that person to him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Nature itself has God's signature, God gave man conscience to naturally convicts and excuse them. All these things are suppose to make humans seek God.
But instead, what did they do?

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:


God put all these in place so human can seek him..
God knows we human beings are sinners, that is why he sent Jesus to die for our sins.
Jesus died for every human being sin both past, present and future but however there is a condition, that is, anyone who will receive Jesus Son would be saved.

All those who genuinely seek God, he lead them to his Son.

How do you think Abraham who existed before Jesus early birth saw Christ?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

God revealed the day of christ to Abraham, he believed and rejoiced.

God preached to Abraham,
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Right from the creation of the world God has always make himself known to people who can have faith.

Even today, nobody saw christ physically yet some belived while others do not.
It has always being like this, even the people who saw christ physically rejected and killed him, so it does matter, whether people before, during and after the coming of christ, those whom the father brings to Jesus are those that who recieve him.

OkCornel:
Did Revelation 20 mention the partakers of the first resurrection are Jewish Christians only?

The book of revelation focuses primarily on that which awaits the Christians who are of Jewish descent. From those who make up the 144,000 to those who will be sourced from all tribes, languages and nations of the earth, to those who will be there during the millennial reign... all of Jewish decent.

Kobojunkie:
The book of revelation focuses primarily on that which awaits the Christians who are of Jewish descent. From those who make up the 144,000 to those who will be sourced from all tribes, languages and nations of the earth, to those who will be there during the millennial reign... all of Jewish decent.

Revelation 20 v 4-5;
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection




Revelation 2 v 26-27 (A message to the church at Thyatira - Asia minor)

26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.


Are these Jewish Christians only?

advanceDNA:
Incredible....
Kobojunkie said "my bad"
There is hope for nigeria after all..

My mission isn't really to invalidate opinions but instead to make known the Truth of God as taught by Jesus Christ, the one who is King over both Heaven and Hell, both of them domains in the Kingdom of God.

Kobojunkie:
My mission isn't really to invalidate opinions but instead to make known the Truth of God as taught by Jesus Christ, the one who is King over both Heaven and Hell, both of them domains in the Kingdom of God.

U can do that without being condescending to peoole and assuming they were taught by some MOG....many people read the bible themselves and do not interpret well...its not their intention to do so...its level of understanding.....but u are always making it look like they deliberately doing evil and rejecting the word of God ....

Valoromega:

Where will the people who lived before Christ came go to?
Hell or heaven
Or our ancestors that lived in Africa before Christianity came where will they go?
They said Christ is the only way and these people didn't know Christ. So where did they go?
Did the millions of people who lived before Christ came all go to hell?

That's why Jesus sent his true disciples (Jehovah's Witnesses) to come and teach you in your homes or where you find convenience! Matthew 10:11-13 compare to Romans 10:13-15

First of all Heaven is not for humans earth is man's permanent abode {Psalms 115:16} and Hell simply means "Grave" so all dead goes there! Ecclesiastes 9:10

But regarding people who lived before Jesus this is what the Bible says:
From Abel till John the baptist who were servants of the true God, God declared them "RIGHTEOUS" because they knew his standard and lived accordingly even though many of them never had God's laws. But there are many people in other lands who also lived by conscience like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph. All these people never had any WRITTEN laws yet they lived by conscience so people like them in all the parts of the earth will be remembered for proving by the way they lived their lives! Romans 2:14-15

So when God remembers people who lived by conscience like Job all these people will also be remembered for resurrection {Job 14:13-15} but they will be resurrected as UNRIGHTEOUS humans because they never knew the righteousness of God.

What about people who deliberately chose to be wicked and never care about conscience?
Such ones will never be remembered at all! Psalms 9:17

You may like to know what will happen in the judgment day regarding the righteous and the unrighteous. Please contact any JW in your neighbourhood.

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

OkCornel:
Revelation 20 v 4-5;
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection

2. Revelation 2 v 26-27 (A message to the church at Thyatira - Asia minor)
26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. Are these Jewish Christians only?

Revelations 20 is obviously to those of Jewish descent.

The Revelations 2 reference is drawn from a letter meant for those who belong to the Church of Thyatira, right? As for that reference to ruling over the Nations, check what is written in Psalm 2

4 But the one who rules in heaven laughs at them. The Lord makes fun of them.
5 He speaks to them in anger, and it fills them with fear.
6 He says, “I have chosen this man to be king, and he will rule on Zion, my holy mountain.”
7 Let me tell you about the Lord’s agreement: He said to me, “Today I have become your father, and you are my son.
8 If you ask, I will give you the nations. Everyone on earth will be yours.
9 You will rule over them with great power. You will scatter your enemies like broken pieces of pottery!”
10 So, kings and rulers, be smart and learn this lesson.
11 Serve the Lord with fear and trembling.
12 Show that you are loyal to his son, or the Lord will be angry and destroy you. He is almost angry enough to do that now, but those who go to him for protection will be blessed. - Psalm 2 vs 6 - 12

Who do you think that passage is about?

Kobojunkie:
Revelations 20 is obviously to those of Jewish descent.

The Revelations 2 reference is drawn from a letter meant for those who belong to the Church of Thyatira, right? As for that reference to ruling over the Nations, check what is written in Psalm 2
Who do you think that passage is about?

Only Jewish Christians will resist the mark of the beast and be persecuted for Christ’s sake?

All the believers in the Thyatira church are only Jewish Christians?

advanceDNA:
U can do that without being condescending to peoole and assuming they were taught by some MOG....many people read the bible themselves and do not interpret well...its not their intention to do so...its level of understanding.....but u are always making it look like they deliberately doing evil and rejecting the word of God ....

You think I condescend but I don't, so....

Also, 99.9999% of what people who claim to read the bible spew is that which they have already heard from others of what is written. If not, there is no reason why anyone would read A, and insist it is B instead. Even I used to believe that Hell, for example, was for unbelievers as well, this because that is what I heard majorly trumpeted by pastors and mogs, but it wasn't until I decided to go tabular rasa on my mind and approach God was my eyes then opened to what is in fact written which is that Heaven and Hell are only available to those who are born-again.

OkCornel:
1. Only Jewish Christians will resist the mark of the beast and be persecuted for Christ’s sake?

2. All the believers in the Thyatira church are only Jewish Christians?

1. About that, well, somehow I am of the mind still that that event has already taken place.

2. I don't know about that. What I know is that like Paul whose letters were directed primarily to the Jewish Christians, so also, this letter may also be directed at the Jewish Christians as well. This is given the particular reference made to that revealed of the one to rule over the Holy mountain of Zion in Psalm 2, the one who is the Son of David's Lord.

Kobojunkie:
You think I condescend but I don't, so....

Also, 99.9999% of what people who claim to read the bible spew is that which they have already heard from others of what is written. If not, there is no reason why anyone would read A, and insist it is B instead. Even I used to believe that Hell, for example, was for unbelievers as well, this because that is what I heard majorly trumpeted by pastors and mogs, but it wasn't until I decided to go tabular rasa on my mind and approach God was my eyes then opened to what is in fact written which is that Heaven and Hell are only available to those who are born-again.

If u say so

I hope this time we can at least have a logical discussion that won't devolve into insults

Dtruthspeaker:


We know! Samuel, Jarius daughter, Lazarus all were woken up from "Sleeping."

All who are dead, sleep except special cases like those in the world in Noah's days.

You're talking about a story which cannot be verified at the moment. How different is it from the stories where Zeus fought with hades, or where Krishna lifted a mountain.

These stories of alleged resurrection, and others found in religious scripture, both in Christianity and other religions.. have no way of being substantiated or verified.. so making reference to them hardly does anything to prove that something happens after death.

Which is why till the end of the world, there would always be talk of ghosts and appearances of people who died like the one recently reported here in nairaland.

Ghost stories and NDEs have always been of interest to me. Especially NDEs... I've read tons of them, if not hundreds. Unfortunately, they don't point to anything specific.

Let me explain.

The vast majority of NDEs report something like a bright light, or overwhelming feelings of calmness and love. That's as precise as it gets.

There are some, that seem to feature religious figures.. like Jesus, Buddha, or some other central religious leader/deity.

The thing i noticed with NDEs, especially the ones of that natire, is that they're highly dependent on what the person knew before their alleged death.

So for example, people who report seeing characters like Jesus, are either Christians, or people from other religions who have heard about jesus at some point in the past.

Same goes for similar stories relating to other religious figures. It always seems to be heavily influenced either by the said person's belief, or the beliefs they've been exposed to at a point in time.

You'll never see someone who has never heard of Christ or Buddha, or Krishna, etc seeing these figures in their NDEs

Not to mention that the stories they often come back with, although attempting to describe the same place, give very conflicting reports, which further proves that these experiences are based on their current knowledge of the belief system they subscribe to.

Now let me talk about ghost stories. I've not read as much compared to NDEs... But I've read a fair share.

I've seen stories where people report seeing dead relatives, hours, days, months, and yes, even a few years after their death.. and it got me thinking

1. It goes against the Christian belief that judgement comes after death
2. It raises the question as to why these things happen only in some cases, but not in all cases. As an example, it is estimated that over 100 billion people have lived since the beginning of the human race.

So where then are their ghosts? Why do some people seem to see dead relatives for longer periods of time, and others for shorter periods.. and most, not at all

So at the end of the day, we're left with more questions than answers, and not much reasonable evidence, as to what happens after death, or where people “go"

Wilgrea7:
I hope this time we can at least have a logical discussion that won't devolve into insults

As long as you stay within normal grown up reasonable limits and you do not blaspheme The Lord, then you have no problems with me.

Wilgrea7:

You're talking about a story which cannot be verified at the moment. How different is it from the stories where Zeus fought with hades, or where Krishna lifted a mountain.

This thread already has the position that the contents of the Bible are True, hence the question of the thread. Therefore, I can use the Bible to answer.

Wilgrea7:

...So at the end of the day, we're left with more questions than answers, and not much reasonable evidence, as to what happens after death, or where people “go"

As I told you, I always stick to the main points of the thread, so I read all your presentations and I understand your concerns and so I hereby address them on the whole, and I do not intend departing from the main issue of the thread which is "after death".

First, following your interests in ghosts and stuff, I say it is a waste of time and unprofitable for the most important thing about being a human being is 'How we live using our talent called "Life"!

Which when the Giver of our Life calls for the records and fruits of our use of it, leads to the question "hope He would be pleased with the reports He finds there?"

And on that Day of Opened Records, O.Y.O is the case and all things which happened or did not happen before that day, is material only to the person it happened or 'not happened' to.

So, the next place and destination after living in this world depends on how you impress The Consular in charge of your passage to the next destination.

Good to have you back

Dtruthspeaker:


As long as you stay within normal grown up reasonable limits and you do not blaspheme The Lord, then you have no problems with me.

I don't go into any thread with the intention to blaspheme or insult any God or religion. That being said, that won't stop me from criticizing ideas I believe are worth criticizing.

This thread already has the position that the contents of the Bible are True, hence the question of the thread. Therefore, I can use the Bible to answer.

The OP asked a question relating to people from other religions based on the Christian worldview. I initially tried to challenge the analogy by sighting similar beliefs held by others. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

As I told you, I always stick to the main points of the thread, so I read all your presentations and I understand your concerns and so I hereby address them on the whole, and I do not intend departing from the main issue of the thread which is "after death".

First, following your interests in ghosts and stuff, I say it is a waste of time and unprofitable for the most important thing about being a human being is 'How we live using our talent called "Life"!

Which when the Giver of our Life calls for the records and fruits of our use of it, leads to the question "hope He would be pleased with the reports He finds there?"

And on that Day of Opened Records, O.Y.O is the case and all things which happened or did not happen before that day, is material only to the person it happened or 'not happened' to.

So, the next place and destination after living in this world depends on how you impress The Consular in charge of your passage to the next destination.

Ok. Considering this thread makes reference to what happens after death, I think my response also follows.

The claim that a certain God judges people in a certain way, or that a certain next destination exists, is one I'd like to see proven.

I asked for proof, and you were the one that brought up the example of NDEs.. which i responded to.

I cannot take your assumption that the bible is "true" just like that, because i believe it is a faulty way of looking at things, especially when the people from other religions in question here also have similar claims about both their gods and their books.

If by nature of the thread, you insist on having a one-sided argument.. then it immediately loses its validity and claim to any sort of truth

Wilgrea7:
...The OP asked a question relating to people from other religions based on the Christian worldview.

Which means that the question can be answered by the Bible and Christian views.

[quote author=Wilgrea7 post=116679392]
Ok. Considering this thread makes reference to what happens after death, I think my response also follows.

The claim that a certain God judges people in a certain way, or that a certain next destination exists, is one I'd like to see proven.

The highlight is your own fresh question (which i would have said is a deviation from the thread) but I would oblige you with an answer which I have told you before.

As long you did not create yourself, you are always at the Judgement of your Creator.

No iPhone nor Corolla nor Samsung nor toy can disappear unless their Creators comes to the judgment that he wants them destroyed permanently.

Dtruthspeaker:


The highlight is your own fresh question (which i would have said is a deviation from the thread) but I would oblige you with an answer which I have told you before.

The topic of the thread starts with “if heaven and hell is real".. so i believe a discussion about the existence of said heaven and hell is not that far off

Plus.. the OP is making an assumption.. and all corresponding answers are also based on the assumption.

If you agree that the answers from the biblical perspective are based on the assumption that heaven and hell exist, rather than a statement of fact, then we're good to go... And my job here is done.

As long you did not create yourself, you are always at the Judgement of your Creator.

No iPhone nor Corolla nor Samsung nor toy can disappear unless their Creators comes to the judgment that he wants them destroyed permanently.

I don't think this is the argument per se. You're trying to argue for the existence of a God here.. but since this thread isn't about the existence of God.. I'll have to refrain from debating such.

I do notice this existence of God thing has been a common point of disagreement between both of us. Would you like me to open a thread where we can discuss it thoroughly?

Wilgrea7:

The topic of the thread starts with “if heaven and hell is real".. so i believe a discussion about the existence of said heaven and hell is not that far off

The tone and tenor of the op's whole post shows his acceptance (even if tentative and even fearbacked) of the fact that heaven and hell is real.

Therefore, it is you who entertains the position that it is not real hence a deviation. You are pursuing your own cause using the op's grounds.

Wilgrea7:

I don't think this is the argument per se. You're trying to argue for the existence of a God here.. but since this thread isn't about the existence of God.. I'll have to refrain from debating such.

Heaven and Hell represents the Judgement of;

1. The bad furtherance of the well fare of a creation even up to permanent destruction and termination of living and existence (hell/lake of fire)

2. The good furtherance of the well fare of a creation even up to the receiving of upgrades and improvement and continuous living and existence.

Which is why I said

"As long you did not create yourself, you are always AT THE JUDGEMENT of your Creator.

No iPhone nor Corolla nor Samsung nor toy can disappear unless their Creators comes to the judgment that HE WANTS THEM DESTROYED PERMANENTLY."

Wilgrea7:

I do notice this existence of God thing has been a common point of disagreement between both of us. Would you like me to open a thread where we can discuss it thoroughly?

We already went through it and you know you could not find any reasonable or valid way around it.

But since that one was dirty, let's have a clean version and let us see.

Valoromega:
Where will the people who lived before Christ came go to?
Hell or heaven

Or our ancestors that lived in Africa before Christianity came where will they go?

They said Christ is the only way and these people didn't know Christ. So where did they go?

Did the millions of people who lived before Christ came all go to hell?

They will be judged based on their conscience. After Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit(the knowledge of good and evil), God said, Man has now be like Us and have known what is good and evil.

OkCornel:
Proverbs 20 v 27 shows intuition as a guiding light to TRUTH;

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.


Note: It says “the spirit of man” not the spirit of a Christian or Judaiser or Muslim or Agnostic.

Wake up, smell the coffee and see the bigger picture.

Truth is pure, religion is fraud…know the difference.

The truth sets you free, but religion enslaves.

Know this and know peace.

true religion doesn't enslaves my brother true religion is a even more clearer path to the truth.

Truvelisback:
They will be judged based on their conscience. After Adam and Eve sinned by ate the forbidden fruit(the knowledge of good and evil), God said, Man has now be like Us and have known what is good and evil.

Where did God Almighty tell you He will do this which you claim?

Many of you are yet to realize how all you do is put words in God's mouth by these lies you spew in His name.

OkCornel:
Romans 2 v 13-15 speaks of conscience (not religion) as a guiding light to TRUTH;

If you hadn't pulled those verses out of context to pretend they say what you want them to, you would have seen where in Romans 2 vs 12, Paul instead clearly explained that the end that awaited all sinners of the Law is judgment whereas that which awaited all sinners out of the Law is they perish in the grave aka are lost at there end.

Kobojunkie:
If you hadn't pulled those verses out of context to pretend they say what you want them to, you would have seen where in Romans 2 vs 12, Paul instead clearly explained that the end that awaited all sinners of the Law is judgment whereas that which awaited all sinners out of the Law is they perish in the grave aka are lost at there end.

Did the sinners know good and evil through the conscience? Yes or No.

That’s the summary of Romans 2 v 13-15

OkCornel:
Did the sinners know good and evil through the conscience? Yes or No.

That’s the summary of Romans 2 v 13-15

A sinner is one who rejects God's to begin, yes or no?

All you have to do is look up and find exactly where it is in scripture that God Himself tells you He will do that which you claim. If you can find such, you have found truth else what you claim is nothing but a lie.

Kobojunkie:
A sinner is one who rejects God's to begin, yes or no?

All you have to do is look up and find exactly where it is in scripture that God Himself tells you He will do that which you claim. If you can find such, you have found truth else what you claim is nothing but a lie.

So your conscience does not convict you (Kobojunkie) of the truth as Romans 2 v 13-15 states?