Wilgrea7:

You just exposed yourself mate.
So much for atheism huh?

Where there is real benefits everyone agrees it's when there's no real benefits that each goes there ways!

ChocolateWine:


No sense of logic. Thought you had one. Bye.

Some of you just come here to insult people that disagree with you. I don't know what this generation is turning to.
Because someone does not agree with you, he has no sense of logic?
The guy was actually making a lot of sense but because it did not appeal to you, you had to be rude.

MaxInDHouse:


Where there is real benefits everyone agrees it's when there's no real benefits that each goes there ways!

Oya na .. dey go

See road

Wilgrea7:


No.. those are not the same questions. A human making a car knows it can kill people, not that it will. Let me explain.

It is similar, the fact is you know a car can kill! Why not just prevent the probability from happening by NOT making a car? So it is similar

We humans do NOT know the future. When we make a car, we don't know what the buyers will use it for. If they'll drive drunk or anything. We hope they don't. But we don't know.

humans could to a certain degree give a probable prediction of the future. You don't need to know the specific individual, why not just prevent any probability of an accident by NOT making a car that may kill people?

An all-knowing God, especially the one who is supposed to know the end from the beginning knows that the car WILL be bought by an alcoholic and knows that it WILL cause the death of innocent people, because said all-knowing God knows the future.

It was his choice to be drunk, God will not stop his choice by not creating him or other means. As for people dieing from the bad choice of others, it is all a result of a fallen world.

he chooses to go ahead with creating the car, or selling it to that particular person who he KNOWS is an alcoholic that WILL kill people, then he is partially responsible for their deaths.

If everyone is giving freewill to make choices, preventing some people from excercing their choices makes God to be unjust and God is not unjust, except there is another just reason for God to do so.

If he is qualified to have a car like every other person why should he be denied is right because of some thing he didn't do? You see that you made no point at all.

God in this case, as you've said, knew the end from the beginning. He knew Adam and eve would sin, and fall from grace. He knew his creation would develop a fault along the line, and still went ahead with it.

yes everyone must be given a fair opportunity to be with God even though some would fall what matters is that God justly provided that opportunity for them.
You keep repeating the same thing, yes God knows his creation will develop fault and that fault will show how great he is in terms of his love, Justice, wisdom etc.

I'm sorry.. So humanity's condition will not be permanent how??

If God didn't drive Adam and Eve from the garden they would have eaten from the tree of life and all hope of redemption lost because humanity will now be irredeemable. Right now everyone has a chance of restoration hence human condition is yet permanent, it will only be made permanent after the final judgment.

Also, why create something with a flaw that can be solved, rather than creating something that does not have or develop any flaws eventually. That brings his all-powerfulness into question

It does not bring God's almightiness into question. God can do all things does not mean he will do all things, infact God cannot lie. God Almightiness must be interpreted in light with his other qualities, and not taken out and misinterpreted

That flaw will make the creation to understand the creator better and hence make them truly perfect.

Yes God will at the end make a creation that cannot develop fault that is perfect in his own way. Remember, the creation exist for the purpose of the creator not the order way round. Humans are not machines or robot but are entities capable of having experience.

How exactly? That's like building a car, and saying the car's ability to break down in the middle of the road is part of it's perfection. And that's also not taking into account the fact that God knew about the flaws.. So it's more like creating a car that WILL break down on the road, and calling it perfect.

No like a man creating a make and brake fuse that brakes within a certain range. How can such device that brakes and plunge the house into darkness be perfect?
Perfection depends on the purpose of a thing, if you don't know the purpose it will not be perfect buy if you know it, then you know it is perfect.

I disagree. Using the car analogy. If i made a car that breaks down, or leaks fluid, or rather WILL leak fluid after exactly 10 days, and I say the car is perfect, would you agree with me? If not, then perfection is not only determined by the creator.

you can only say it is not perfect because it is not serving the purpose it is intended to serve.

Fishes are imperfect on land yet perfect in water, the perfection of something is in its purpose.

I'm not deciding for him. I'm asking why wait so long? That's the whole point of the thread. If he had sent Jesus immediately after adam and eve sinned, the sin could have been eliminated right there and then. And that's assuming the sacrifice worked.. something I will discuss later on.

Again you like a man that wants to teach a doctor how to treat his patient.

How can you say a drug didn't work when you rejected it?

But of course your God is all knowing. He knew when they sinned. He knew about the repulsive thing that is sin, which he hated so much. He knew about the infection. So why not treat it immediately?

God is a God of process. He could have made the world in less than a second yet he took seven days.
Before Jesus came alot of things were put in place, this things were to lead men to christ.

Let me give you a quick analogy. Someone you know has a disease, that makes them cough blood every 5 minutes. They take a drug that claims to heal them, but you still see them coughing blood days, weeks, or months after. Would you say because you didn't take the medicine, that you don't know if it worked?

what if the person did not take the drug?

Now, on to the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice. Most Christians agree that Adam and eve were in a sort of exalted state, and sinning made them fall from that state. It's referred to as the fall of man. So therefore, people who take the said treatment (A.K.A Jesus) should return to that exalted state. But I don't see it.

They will return not just back to the first Adam's state but far above it. God is a God of process, the most important thing is that those that are recieved christ are free from eternal damnation.

Let me further expatiate. Christians believe that before sin, there was no sickness, no sorrow, no hardship, etc. I won't focus on the things humans do to each other. I'll focus on the things nature does to us humans.

This is because the natural world is not yet saved, God is a God of process and order. Once God's people are all transformed they will appear on this natural world and set it free.

Sickness is a good example. If someone is truly saved, then they should return back to their adamite glory. If they don't, then what use is the remedy. If they do, then why do Christians fall sick? Why do they die of diseases just like everyone else? Why do they face hardships in life?

As at now only the Spirit of those who received christ has being transformed not their bodies, hence they still face challenges as other people.

These things are the by-products of sin, as we know it. So accepting the cure, means you should be free from ALL of these. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Why?

It will, at the appointed time.

I wasn't talking about the individual. I was talking about humanity as a whole. Adam and eve were supposed to be the only 2 humans at the time. They both sinned. That means 2 people got the virus of sin.

Now, the population increased, as did the sin. If you believe in original sin, then you believe that by virtue of the fall, we're all sinners. Meaning as new humans were born, they were born in sin. Now there are about 8 billion humans, all born in sin.

Redemption is an individual choice, redemption is not inherited by physical birth. Even if christ died immediately Adam and Eve sinned it still won't prevent sin from spreading.

You yourself said that simply saying the "Jesus I accept you" prayer doesn't cut it. There must be repentance. And anyone can look around and see, that by the christian concept, there is still A LOT of sin in the world today. So obviously, the plan for redemption, failed to achieve it's purpose.

People are still being born into that sinful nature, and people are still sinning, as a result of said nature. The majority of us still appear to be in our fallen state. That, is the definition of a failed solution.

Yeah there must be repentance, however this repentance is actually turning to the Lord, acknowledging your sinfulness and then accepting his offer to you. When you accept God's gift of salvation, you start living a righteous life just as God wanted. When you recieve God's gift you become a new creature in your spirit and when Jesus appears your outward being will be transformed too.

You are right that people are still sinning, but however, God is creating a new world that will be perfect without sin, now only those who recieve God's redemption now will be in it.

Though alot of people have not accepted God's gift, that door is still opening and people are made aware through preachers all over the world. Every day alot of people are taking God's offer.

tctrills:

Some of you just come here to insult people that disagree with you. I don't know what this generation is turning to.
Because someone does not agree with you, he has no sense of logic?
The guy was actually making a lot of sense but because it did not appeal to you, you had to be rude.

Are you stupid?

How does asking if the bible was written in English connect with what we're talking?

How does being almighty (most powerful) mean all knowing?

Or all powerful has to do with sheer strength?


Don't be a moronic fool please.

Wilgrea7:

Oya na .. dey go
See road

Great!
So you won't quote me again until you're ready to tell me the benefits there is in quoting me, right?

ChocolateWine:


Are you stupid?

How does asking if the bible was written in English connect with what we're talking?

How does being almighty (most powerful) mean all knowing?

Or all powerful has to do with sheer strength?


Don't be a moronic fool please.

I knew you were like this. But then I would not insult you, I would only give you some sound advice. Your life is full of bitterness, next time you are provoked, take a deep breath and let it go. Mind your language. Ask for the present of the spirit to guide your communication.
It shall be well with you.

MaxInDHouse:


Great!
So you won't quote me again until you're ready to tell me the benefits there is in quoting me, right?

If I find flaws in your argument I'll quote you... Don't worry .. I'll go easy on you

Wilgrea7:

If you find flaws in your argument I'll quote you... Don't worry .. I'll go easy on you

There is NO FLAWS in what brings benefits you can't find elsewhere!

Steep:
It is similar, the fact is you know a car can kill! Why not just prevent the probability from happening by NOT making a car? So it is similar

humans could to a certain degree give a probable prediction of the future. You don't need to know the specific individual, why not just prevent any probability of an accident by NOT making a car that may kill people?

It was his choice to be drunk, God will not stop his choice by not creating him or other means. As for people dieing from the bad choice of others, it is all a result of a fallen world.

No it's not similar... Knowing something CAN happen.. and knowing something WILL happen are not the same thing.

Ok let me give another example. Our weather predictions are over 90% accurate.

Let's say you see the forecast.. and know there's a 90% chance of heavy rain tomorrow... But you choose not to carry an umbrella.. even though you hate getting soaked.

When the rain falls and you eventually get soaked, are you not partially to blame for not carrying an umbrella? Did the other 10% chance justify you not carrying an umbrella?

But God's case isn't 90%.. its 100%... Since he is all knowing. But it gets worse.

The case of adam and eve isn't like the case of creating a car for a large number of people, with the possibility of 1 person getting an accident. Its worse.

Adam and eve were specifically placed in the garden with the forbidden fruit, and an all knowing God, knew what would happen 100%.

It's more of a case of someone making one car and choosing to sell it specifically to the drunkard, while knowing 100% that the car WILL involve an accident and the death of people.

God knew what would happen specifically to adam and eve, just like the all knowing car creator who sold the only car to the drunkard knows that he will get in an accident and kill people.

If everyone is giving freewill to make choices, preventing some people from excercing their choices makes God to be unjust and God is not unjust, except there is another just reason for God to do so.

If he is qualified to have a car like every other person why should he be denied is right because of some thing he didn't do? You see that you made no point at all.

I believe I've addressed this above. But I'll like to add something in regards to freewill. A lot of the times.. you make reference to human freewill... But what about God's??

The right of the drunkard to get a car does not in any way supercede the right of the car owner to decide who to sell his product to. Especially when he knows that specific person will 100% commit a crime.

You seem to also miss another point which I've been trying to avoid granting you for the sake of argument.. and that is that freewill and an all-knowing God are incompatible.

If a God knows the future 100%.. then freewill cannot exist because the future already exists.. and it has to happen according to God's knowledge.. and since God's knowledge can't be wrong.. then the future is fixed.. and if the future is fixed.. then everything is fated to happen..

Just like we know tomorrow that the earth will rotate and the sun will rise. The earth has no freewill. The sun rising tomorrow is already fated to happen via the laws of physics.

Referencing an all knowing God and freewill is a dangerous game of hot potato. But I don't want us to dwell on this part too much.. since it's not the meat of our discussion

For the sake of argument.. I'll grant your freewill analogy.

Ok.... Now this is the meat of the argument I'd like to address

Steep:

yes everyone must be given a fair opportunity to be with God even though some would fall what matters is that God justly provided that opportunity for them.

I don't see how this follows. How is it a fair opportunity.. when some are destined to fall and be eternally separated from him?

Also.. Adam and eve's fall is one thing. Letting the fall thing play out this long, to this large of a population is another. What exactly do you mean by “everyone"?

I've also addressed the claim of the opportunity.. but I'll expatiate on it further.

You keep repeating the same thing, yes God knows his creation will develop fault and that fault will show how great he is in terms of his love, Justice, wisdom etc.

I don't see the greatness you're trying to portray. Justice for 2 people and justice for a billion... Is still justice. The alleged justice could have been dealt out for Adam and eve directly.. rather than waiting to do it to billions of people.

And that doesn't even bring the claim of a so called justice into account. The so called love, justice and wisdom are not attributes i see here

Why let a child have a disease that eventually consumes it.. while having the ability to have stopped the disease in the first place, and claiming to hate said disease and also simultaneously claiming to love said child?

Why punish a child infinitely for a finite crime, while still claiming to be just?

Why blame a child for a fault you are partially responsible for, while also claiming to be wise? I really do not see it.

If God didn't drive Adam and Eve from the garden they would have eaten from the tree of life and all hope of redemption lost because humanity will now be irredeemable. Right now everyone has a chance of restoration hence human condition is yet permanent, it will only be made permanent after the final judgment.

But this isn't the argument. Chasing them out of the garden is one thing. Choosing to let them multiply till this number, before administering the so called cure is another. The latter is what i have problems with.

It does not bring God's almightiness into question. God can do all things does not mean he will do all things, infact God cannot lie. God Almightiness must be interpreted in light with his other qualities, and not taken out and misinterpreted

Is there any one of God's qualities that prevents him from being able to create something without flaws?

That flaw will make the creation to understand the creator better and hence make them truly perfect.

Are you implying that sin is what makes us understand God? So adam and eve couldn't have understood God properly, that they needed to sin to do so.. Then why does God hate it?

Why hate something that makes your children understand you better? Why hate something that is integral to perfection? Why punish someone for something that is supposed to make them perfect

And that still doesn't address the question I've been asking since. Why wait this long? Does your God need 8 billion people to understand him better? What's wrong with 2? Do the angels in heaven not understand him enough?

Yes God will at the end make a creation that cannot develop fault that is perfect in his own way. Remember, the creation exist for the purpose of the creator not the order way round. Humans are not machines or robot but are entities capable of having experience.

Ok?

No like a man creating a make and brake fuse that brakes within a certain range. How can such device that brakes and plunge the house into darkness be perfect?
Perfection depends on the purpose of a thing, if you don't know the purpose it will not be perfect buy if you know it, then you know it is perfect.

you can only say it is not perfect because it is not serving the purpose it is intended to serve.

Fishes are imperfect on land yet perfect in water, the perfection of something is in its purpose.

And the purpose of creation is what exactly?? From the bible.. it seemed our job was to rule the earth. By that definition, the fall didn't affect that.. we still rule the earth... Albeit terribly

Except you mean we were meant to rule the earth in a good manner.. then by that definition.. the flaw makes us imperfect.. and your God, knowing about the flaw from the beginning of time, made an imperfect creation... Or a creation that would become imperfect.

If there's another purpose.. I'd be happy to hear

I apologize if my response is long. Feel free to take as much time as you want before you respond.

I'd just like for us to be able to iron out the problem comprehensively

Steep:

Again you like a man that wants to teach a doctor how to treat his patient.

How can you say a drug didn't work when you rejected it?

I made reference to seeing the symptoms of the disease even after the person claimed to have been healed by the drug.

God is a God of process. He could have made the world in less than a second yet he took seven days.
Before Jesus came alot of things were put in place, this things were to lead men to christ.

What things exactly? That's what I fail to see. What things were needed for Christ's coming that couldn't have been put in place during the time of Adam?

what if the person did not take the drug?

They will return not just back to the first Adam's state but far above it. God is a God of process, the most important thing is that those that are recieved christ are free from eternal damnation.

So basically... Apart from the poor damage control.. the people who have reportedly taken the drug.. are not seeing the effects .. and they'll only see the effects after they die??

This is because the natural world is not yet saved, God is a God of process and order. Once God's people are all transformed they will appear on this natural world and set it free.

The natural world did not fall. Man did. The natural world isn't the one being saved.. Man is. Christ died for man.. not for mother earth.

As at now only the Spirit of those who received christ has being transformed not their bodies, hence they still face challenges as other people.

It will, at the appointed time.

This very thing you're saying, is the efficacy I'm talking about. The sin affected man's nature when he was still alive.. so why does the treatment have to wait for him to die first and be resurrected before it works?

Also.. the reference to the spirit being changed is something I can't also see. From the biblical story.. we can see that the fall had a very physical effect.

From the Christian perspective.. that is what led to pain and suffering, something we still see even among the Christians.

What spiritual effect did the fall have? And how are saved people somehow changed because of it?

I'd like to hear what you have to say, so I don't say something based on assumption

Redemption is an individual choice, redemption is not inherited by physical birth. Even if christ died immediately Adam and Eve sinned it still won't prevent sin from spreading.

God could have made eve barren to prevent sin from spreading. He didn't.

Also.. redemption being an individual choice while the sinful nature being something we're born with makes no sense. It only undermines the efficacy of the cure.

If i am born corrupted.. by nature of my ancestor's sin.. then why can i not be born saved.. by nature of my ancestor's redemption?

If people are still born in sin, regardless of if their parents are saved, then why let more and more people be born? Of what use is the treatment then?

Why not just send Christ during Adam and eve's time and stop the world population then.. and then resurrect everyone according to your cure so they'll be pure again.. and be able to give birth to pure and saved offspring.

Why claim to want people to be saved, while also letting them multiply, and give birth to more and more corrupt people, regardless of if the parents have been saved? That's the thing I don't understand

Yeah there must be repentance, however this repentance is actually turning to the Lord, acknowledging your sinfulness and then accepting his offer to you. When you accept God's gift of salvation, you start living a righteous life just as God wanted. When you recieve God's gift you become a new creature in your spirit and when Jesus appears your outward being will be transformed too.

You are right that people are still sinning, but however, God is creating a new world that will be perfect without sin, now only those who recieve God's redemption now will be in it.

You're not getting my point. Why wait for this number of people to be faced with this kind of a decision?..

A lot of us were born into our sinful and fallen nature involuntarily... So why does the cure have to be voluntary.. especially when we were not the ones that ate the fruit directly?

That's the efficacy of the cure I'm talking about.

Though alot of people have not accepted God's gift, that door is still opening and people are made aware through preachers all over the world. Every day alot of people are taking God's offer.

1. There are also a lot of people like me.. walking away from religion.

2. You said taking the offer alone doesn't cut it. People also need to live according to the will of God.. or the way God wants .. so you need to add in that filter when examining the number people who are truly saved.. and like I said.. it doesn't seem to be a lot.