@ diluminati

I missed much of the hullabaloo's.  But i'll just say the op enriched his pastor sha, nothing else.

how can you enrich your pastor? except who you have is not sent by God, you cannot enrich him cos the God that sent him feeds him.

@ plaetton

Omo pastor, Joeagbaje and others have repeatedly tried to impress upon this forum that there exist big difference between giving to the poor or needy and giving to god,
I beg any of them to kindly elaborate on this.

giving to the poor is a natural law that whenever evoked by anybody will reap the harvest, anyone can give to the poor anytime:
Mar 14:7  For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

but giving to God not god, is out of relationship with Him, not everyone can do it cos its a revelation even though some see it as a law. until you understand the power of sacrifice, you may not appreciate the power of seeds. some pastors may take this too far but even at that you cannot outgive God. giving is not a burden but something born out of your deepest love for the Master.

What if there is no reward for giving, will you still give?

1 Corinthians 13:3,
English Revised Version:
And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

James 1:27 ESV

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

New International Version: Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

New Living Translation: Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

@ staggerman
yea cos giving is beyond receiving, it does something to your spirit that makes you master over circumstances in life, it conditions to your spirit and opens it up to receive revelations of God.

when you give, it is of necessity you know how to receive, positioning yourself to receive not only monies but so many other fantastic blessings. when you give, you live!

Omopastor, see, lets be frank and realistic in basic life. You just enriched your pastor. deal with it. He will use your 'first fruit' to do whatever he wants to do. Any other spiritual ,scriptural mumbojombo is all in your mind/head. See me, see you you enriched your pastor. Is that too hard to agree on?

@Omo pastor:
So giving to the poor and needy is not the same as giving to god?. So how do you give to god ?

hmmm, I wish to share my own testimony on this topic, I graduated 2006, did my NYSC 2007, and in Sept the same year I joined the job market, it wasnt funny cos I stayed at home for 8months before I got my first job which I was then being paid 37,500 (atfer,pension and my tithe am lift with 30,000, note i pay 4000 as tithe:meaning i give more). I knew this wasnt what I wanted. I was there in that company for 10 months. In January 2009, I was asked to resign cos I refused the offer to be posted  to Owerri. this came up after I went on 7 days fasting and prayer, then i knew its the time I have being waiting for. I survived with 27000 for 2months and in April I got another job paying me 45000, i started the job 2weeks into the month and was paiyed N17500. I thought and cried, why me?, and immediately I finished crying I made up my mind to give all the N17500 to God as my first fruit, nobody preached to me. Immediately I made up my mind to give diiferent thought began, oh you will suffer, oh remember by next month unilag PG form would have ended, and immediately I said devil listen but you know even if i dont give this money, it wont be enough for me to meet my present needs.

Why am I writing this long story, its just to bring to you how it all started. I gave God all after deducting the money I was owing my sister (1500), after paying that I returned home happy but no food, cream (i begin to rub my anointing oil), but now I want to announce to you that God settled me in all the areas i was looking up to Him for. My relationship then that dont last a year, I began a new one that ended in marriage within one year, I got a new job in a multinational company, my husband won federal government of Nigeria scholarship to study at any university of his choice un the united kingdom and for the first time me too i travlled by air.

Its amazing to give to God because He will enlarge you. Sorry i dint remember to tell you how i survived after giving, the same week i gave, my then admirer now my husband gave me a surprise cash to buy my unilag PG form and for my upkeep too. now am an MSC holder

And on the issue of giving, you cant out give God, if He can give His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, then why cant we give back to HIm?even to the poor on the street? Let not stop giving to God, the poor, those little children that clean our windscreen in the traffic, let not over look them, give to the alimajiris because we have one God and to our pastors too we must give to them cos they feed you spiritually you must feed them in the capacity you can. God help us.

@ caropy
your testimony is very inspiring and challenging.
thank you very much for putting the Word to work by listening to the Holy Spirit.
now you have an amazing story to share but remember this is just the beginning, more is around the corner.

caropy:

hmmm, I wish to share my own testimony on this topic, I graduated 2006, did my NYSC 2007, and in Sept the same year I joined the job market, it wasnt funny cos I stayed at home for 8months before I got my first job which I was then being paid 37,500 (atfer,pension and my tithe am lift with 30,000, note i pay 4000 as tithe:meaning i give more). I knew this wasnt what I wanted. I was there in that company for 10 months. In January 2009, I was asked to resign cos I refused the offer to be posted  to Owerri. this came up after I went on 7 days fasting and prayer, then i knew its the time I have being waiting for. I survived with 27000 for 2months and in April I got another job paying me 45000, i started the job 2weeks into the month and was paiyed N17500. I thought and cried, why me?, and immediately I finished crying I made up my mind to give all the N17500 to God as my first fruit, nobody preached to me. Immediately I made up my mind to give diiferent thought began, oh you will suffer, oh remember by next month unilag PG form would have ended, and immediately I said devil listen but you know even if i dont give this money, it wont be enough for me to meet my present needs.

Why am I writing this long story, its just to bring to you how it all started. I gave God all after deducting the money I was owing my sister (1500), after paying that I returned home happy but no food, cream (i begin to rub my anointing oil), but now I want to announce to you that God settled me in all the areas i was looking up to Him for. My relationship then that dont last a year, I began a new one that ended in marriage within one year, I got a new job in a multinational company, my husband won federal government of Nigeria scholarship to study at any university of his choice un the united kingdom and for the first time me too i travlled by air.

Its amazing to give to God because He will enlarge you. Sorry i dint remember to tell you how i survived after giving, the same week i gave, my then admirer now my husband gave me a surprise cash to buy my unilag PG form and for my upkeep too. now am an MSC holder

And on the issue of giving, you cant out give God, if He can give His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, then why cant we give back to HIm?even to the poor on the street? Let not stop giving to God, the poor, those little children that clean our windscreen in the traffic, let not over look them, give to the alimajiris because we have one God and to our pastors too we must give to them cos they feed you spiritually you must feed them in the capacity you can. God help us.

What if you just stayed in one corner, waiting for mana to fall, do you think you will be were yu are today?
Even Richard Branson had challenges like you and got up to do something about it, and he's as rich as rich.

My point is, you did something about your situation, and its not because you gave 'first fruit' to enrich your pastor.

Another person might keep all that money to himself, and work out other ideas to milk money out of the world, and he will still make it. So it doesnt depend on your 'first fruit' that you gave. Lets be realistic jor. All those testimony crap is all your mind work.

@caropy:
Please answer this for us : If you had given those monies to your needy relatives, or poor and needy strangers , or to the orphanage, are you or can you categorically state that you would not have gotten whatever good fortunes that later came your way?
The honest answer to that question is what this debate is all about.

@ plaetton

So giving to the poor and needy is not the same as giving to god?. So how do you give to god ?

you first give yourself which is where many christians only give part of themselves to God

2Co 8:1  Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2Co 8:2  How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
2Co 8:3  For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
2Co 8:4  Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2Co 8:5  And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. KJV

this is very vital cos your giving must not be done with murmurings but joyfully. where many miss it is when they want to know how monies that come into church is spent but i do not advise even my enemies to try this cos as a giver, my final destination is when i drop the seed and as i turn back all i see is my progress and prosperity.

@ caropy,

Very true picture of how the word of God operates. Just like the widow of Zerephat. God told Elijah, Go to Zerephat, for I (God) have commanded her to feed you, ", It was God who commanded the widow to give and also God spoke to Elijah to go feed there. This is clear in obeying the voice of God. This is where we get blessed and not a gimmicks of pastors today. As a christian, there is an inner voice that will always speak to us to do something for God, obedience to that as being led by the Holy Spirit returns abundant blessings on us. I have experienced this also many times but it is not the same as pastors twisting scriptures.

caropy:

hmmm, I wish to share my own testimony on this topic, I graduated 2006, did my NYSC 2007, and in Sept the same year I joined the job market, it wasnt funny cos I stayed at home for 8months before I got my first job which I was then being paid 37,500 (atfer,pension and my tithe am lift with 30,000, note i pay 4000 as tithe:meaning i give more). I knew this wasnt what I wanted. I was there in that company for 10 months. In January 2009, I was asked to resign cos I refused the offer to be posted  to Owerri. this came up after I went on 7 days fasting and prayer, then i knew its the time I have being waiting for. I survived with 27000 for 2months and in April I got another job paying me 45000, i started the job 2weeks into the month and was paiyed N17500. I thought and cried, why me?, and immediately I finished crying I made up my mind to give all the N17500 to God as my first fruit, nobody preached to me. Immediately I made up my mind to give diiferent thought began, oh you will suffer, oh remember by next month unilag PG form would have ended, and immediately I said devil listen but you know even if i dont give this money, it wont be enough for me to meet my present needs.

Why am I writing this long story, its just to bring to you how it all started. I gave God all after deducting the money I was owing my sister (1500), after paying that I returned home happy but no food, cream (i begin to rub my anointing oil), but now I want to announce to you that God settled me in all the areas i was looking up to Him for. My relationship then that dont last a year, I began a new one that ended in marriage within one year, I got a new job in a multinational company, my husband won federal government of Nigeria scholarship to study at any university of his choice un the united kingdom and for the first time me too i travlled by air.

Its amazing to give to God because He will enlarge you. Sorry i dint remember to tell you how i survived after giving, the same week i gave, my then admirer now my husband gave me a surprise cash to buy my unilag PG form and for my upkeep too. now am an MSC holder

And on the issue of giving, you cant out give God, if He can give His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, then why cant we give back to HIm?even to the poor on the street? Let not stop giving to God, the poor, those little children that clean our windscreen in the traffic, let not over look them, give to the alimajiris because we have one God and to our pastors too we must give to them cos they feed you spiritually you must feed them in the capacity you can. God help us.

kia you call this testimony? stop washing yourself.

You paid 'tithes' for how long, but you still got sacked.
For 2 months you were suffering, oh i see your tithes was working.
And then you got a job that was supposed to be N45, 000 but you got N17, 500
Your tithes was still working hmm?
I thought paying of tithes was to stop the devourer but here you were clearly devoured.
You didnt even give the full story about all your efforts in either setting up a business, looking for financial help, seeking for the man to marry etc. these Factors are the essential ingredients that spring board you to where you are now but You made an effort to change your situation. Can you deny that?
And you saying nobody preached to you, that one na lie. The bible told you to pay first fruit in cattle, grains, oil but your pastor tells you 'bring the money or else you die'.

OmoPastor:

@ plaettonyou first give yourself which is where many christians only give part of themselves to God

this is very vital cos your giving must not be done with murmurings but joyfully. where many miss it is when they want to know how monies that come into church is spent but i do not advise even my enemies to try this cos as a giver, my final destination is when i drop the seed and as i turn back all i see is my progress and prosperity.

My brother, please and please stop referring to money as seed or seed as money. It is UNSCRIPTURAL. Seed was referred to as many things in the bible but never money. You can as well refer to your s.p.e.r.m as seed cos it also referred to as seed in the bible and you can also sow it as well into the church or offering box. Nowhere money was referred to as seed. Giving is giving and it can be anything.

@diluminati dont get it wrong, i said i resumed two weeks into the month, so i was paid that amount because i dint resumed the first week of the month, also try and know what the bible says, even if we pay our tithes it doesnt mean there wont be trying times even financial trying times but your faith will shapen you for greater miracles as I have received of God. I did not also tell you i was sacked nooooo, i said i resigned because i was offered to be posted to owerri (read in between the lines). dont forget God knows everything, see the fear of how fast will i get another job would have tie me down in the first job but God use them to offer me a tansfer to a place i know i wont go to and i had to resign which now pave way for me to move on in my career.
Am happy i did because what i pass through then can never reoccur again as God lives.

On this same issue of giving, some of us that come here to call pastors names are not givers even to those biggers on the streets, some their parents are in the village where there is no light and here they are in the city with standby generator and when we mention giving they frown at it. if you dont give to your pastors, the same excuse you give for not giving is the same you will give for not giving your parent and the needy.

we allow fear in our lives, we fear oh, if i give this begger now he/she will carry the money go meet one baba, or say them mama na witch, they live their old parent to die and then later organise what they call 'befitting burial'. if you dont learn how to give to God you wont be able to give to the needy around you, in your family as well.

Giving is giving but you must do it with the leading of God, if God is telling you to give to whoever, please dont ask questions, go ahead and do it. Give to your younger once too. i remeber even then when i resigned from my first job, i still gave my younger aunt money (10,000 from that 27000 i managed to save) cos i promised her before the issue of transfer came and i thought to myself since am looking on God and she is looking on me let me not fail her cos i dont want God too to fail me.
my sisters and brothers, my life changed totally and am still moving forward and hoping for more from God.

goshen360:

My brother, please and please stop referring to money as seed or seed as money. It is UNSCRIPTURAL. Seed was referred to as many things in the bible but never money.

Anything giving with expectation of a harvest is a seed. Money or material. Money was given as seed several times in the bible

2 Corinthians 9:10
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

plaetton:

@caropy:
Please answer this for us : If you had given those monies to your needy relatives, or poor and needy strangers , or to the orphanage, are you or can you categorically state that you would not have gotten whatever good fortunes that later came your way?
The honest answer to that question is what this debate is all about.

Thank you! Seriously, I envy these pastors and the extreme power they exert over their gullible devotees. I don't understand how any sensible person would feel more fulfilled giving their hard-earned money to 'God'(?) already rich pastors rather than to the actually wretched people we see everyday in the streets. It's incredible how anyone would be foolish enough to buy into these religion-based scams. Our God is a God of charity, selflessness, and simplicity. He certainly wouldn't 'bless' you because you helped a fake, greedy, and materialistic pastor add one more Jeep or private jet to his fleet.

Lawd. Stupidity should attract a death penalty!

@plaetton, let me give you this illustration, assuming you have someone who is very rich and you in need of what know know the individual can without much ado offer you, and you have made an attempt to ask for help from the person and the individual denied you, then suddenly someone who knows the rich man very well tell you, oh my brother come let me reveal to you how you can get what you want easily from him without stress, and he says all you need is to buy him some sweet oranges cos he likes oranges, will you go to any extent to make sure you get oranges that are sweet or not?

In Genesis after the flood, God said, sowing and reaping shall not cease. you must sow to reap.

@ all anti-giving
take it or leave it, this we shall do and continue doing. its our life style, nothing you say can change it.

i wonder why some of you are suddenly so concerned about my money, where or who i give it to? do you so much love me that you now want to police my account? i think many of you are simply dishonest about this whole giving thing.

if any of you think the pastors feed off your "hard earned" money then my advise to you is to clear a bush around your area and start your own ministry so when people dare give to you then you can make a living with their "hard earned" monies

when you give, you live

Joagbaje:

Anything giving with expectation of a harvest  is a seed. Money or material. Money was given as seed several times in the bible

2 Corinthians 9:10
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Here you go again, We don't give with expectation to receive back and that is the greed that is used to snare God's people to give. We give as a nature of God and that we also love God. We also give because we are blessed not to be bless. We also give as obedient to God and His word.

Also, the bible verse you quote does not in any way indicate money is referred to as seed. He that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food and multiply your SEED SOWN. Stop taking scriptures out of context my brother, I LOVE YOU STILL.

@ goshen360
do you understand what you just posted at all?

how dare you say one does not have to be expectant after sowing a seed?

which bible do you read? how can you sow without expecting results? dude you need to learn a lot

its only a mad farmer that will sow in a field and not expect harvest! as we cultivate the habit of sowing and reaping, we grow and the eventual purpose of sowing will be revealed to us. harvesting from seed sown is not God's ultimate reason for making the principle of sowing and harvesting, rather all He wants is your total union with His Spirit and your total dominance over worldly possessions which can easily distract you.

at a level of giving, the whole world becomes too small and what many people die getting becomes intangible to you meaning you are totally sold out to Him. sowing and reaping is just the beginning, as you continue God will unfold so much to you that will blow your mind up

^^^ Are you a farmer? Farmers sow and expect to reap and even the harvest depends on God. It shows you don't even understand what I said. We are talking about giving here. We don't give to God with expectation of getting back. We give to God because we love God, it is the nature of God in us. We give in obedience to God's word.

i hear!

@ goshen360
so where do you put this scripture?
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

it baffles me how people culd be cajoled by there pastors using d old testament for them to give 1st fruit, did Jesus remind any body about fruitswhich kin christians we get today ooooooo
, did d apostles & early christians give any 1st fruits?, can christians jus think for once & focus on d more important things, i'v never heard anybody say how much he/she suffered for preaching d goodnews, i'v never heard anybody give testimonies of how they under went intense persecution for preaching just like d apostles did, why is it all about sewing seed,paying tithe,giving 1st fruit,offeringswhyyyyyyyy??which kin money loving country i come from??, when Jesus opened his mouth to talk about seeds it was refering strictly to d preachin work, but here we are today seeing many linking success to givin 1st fruits or payin tithe, how many of d persons who tithe & give 1st fruits preach like Jesus didhow many,
If it aint about money christians today aint saying nothing, what has happened to christianity??, people now use d amassing of wealth or making money as a yard stick to measure Gods blessings, and many feel becos they'v done all d contributions then God wil bless them wit money abundantly,with d best jobs etc, people rili need to read there bibles, many do all these crap and 4get about d weightier issues, taking care of widows & orphans and d less priviledged, leave 1st fruit givin & preach d good news like Jesus did, d isrealites many are referin to never preached from to door to door,neither did they preach frm country to country, it was all about d nation  of isreal & its boundary, today as christians we have a very weighty assignment,to preach, how many persons hav fully accomplished that work, everytime money money money!!!!

caropy:

@plaetton, let me give you this illustration, assuming you have someone who is very rich and you in need of what know know the individual can without much ado offer you, and you have made an attempt to ask for help from the person and the individual denied you, then suddenly someone who knows the rich man very well tell you, oh my brother come let me reveal to you how you can get what you want easily from him without stress, and he says all you need is to buy him some sweet oranges cos he likes oranges, will you go to any extent to make sure you get oranges that are sweet or not?

In Genesis after the flood, God said, sowing and reaping shall not cease. you must sow to reap.

I have no idea what all this babble is about.
You did not answer my question.
@omopastor:
Since you refused to directly answer my question, let me put it another way.If i decide to regularly give a portion of my earnings to the poor and not church,am I giving to god or not and will god be pissed off cos am not giving it to church or pastor?

goshen360:

Here you go again, We don't give with expectation to receive back and that is the greed that is used to snare God's people to give. We give as a nature of God and that we also love God. We also give because we are blessed not to be bless. We also give as obedient to God and His word.

What is the purpose of a seed if not for a harvest. If there's no harvest , it's no seed.

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Also, the bible verse you quote does not in any way indicate money is referred to as seed. He that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food and multiply your SEED SOWN. Stop taking scriptures out of context my brother, I LOVE YOU STILL.

If you read it from the beginning in 1corinthian 16 you will get the sense of it.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Luke 6:38, New Living Translation: Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full--pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back."

Giving is done as an act of obedience and love for God. When we give, we know from the word of God that we will receive or that God somehow will bless us in return but we are not to give with main motive of receiving back. If we do that, that will mean we are trading something for something, therefore making religion out of Christianity. Hence, our primary purpose/motive of giving will not be love from our heart,obedience to God and His word. The sovereignty of God determines our blessing when we act in obedience of giving. PLEASE GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT GOD WHISPERS TO YOUR HEART. I'M NOT AGAINST GIVING IN ANYWAY.

plaetton:
.
@omopastor:
Since you refused to directly answer my question, let me put it another way.If i decide to regularly give a portion of my earnings to the poor and not church,am I giving to god or not and will god be pissed off cos am not giving it to church or pastor?

Let me contribute here. There are about 5 major givings in the bible . Such as , Giving to God, giving for projects, giving to the poor,giving to parents etc. We ought to do all these givings without leaving one for the other. They all have their blessings

Matthew 23:23
. . .  for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


There has to be a balance.

Mark 7:11-12
11 But you say it is perfectly all right for a man to disregard his needy parents, telling them, `Sorry, I can't help you! For I have given to God what I could have given to you.'12 And so you break the law of God in order to protect your man-made tradition. And this is only one example. There are many, many others."

Don't give to God what Is for parents,
Don't give to The poor what is for God
Don't give to parent what Is for God
Don't  give to the poor what is for the man of God.
Don't give to the man of God what is for God.

Mark 12:17
. . Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. .