The following is taken from the book "Toward The Mystery" by Rev. William Edelen. He is an active ordained Presbyterian and Congregational minister for 30 years. Adjunct professor of Religious Studies and Anthropology, University of Puget Sound Tacoma, Washington.

Begin Quote:

Founding Fathers Would Howl If Called Christian

In few other areas of American history is there such a distortion of facts as there is regarding the religious orientation of our Founding Fathers.

A recent Guest Opinion columnist wrote in The Idaho Statesman that: "200 years ago, having religion meant one's life had been drastically altered by the saving lordship of Jesus Christ. Our country was founded by 'born again' men of heart and mind." Those statements are absurd.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin (and even Abraham Lincoln, another of our most admired Presidents) must be turning over in their graves and weeping at such a perversion of their beliefs.

Our most distinguished Founding Fathers did not believe in a "personal" God ,  they did not believe that the Bible was anything other than literature ,  and they had an almost contempt for the Christian clergy and Christian doctrine. "God" was to them "nature's god"; an impersonal form, or "providence." Thomas Paine said it for all of them in these words: "Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie."

In the interest of truth and integrity, I will let these brilliant men speak for themselves:

George Washington refused to ever take communion (looking upon it as superstition), refused to recite liturgy and refused to kneel. Historians classify him as a deist, as did his contemporaries. He never, at any time, professed any "Christian" doctrine or dogma. Episcopalian Bishop Wilson declared Washington to be "only a Unitarian if anything." Historians say that Washington recommended and concurred with American Consul Joel Barlow's statement, written in the Treaty of Peace and Friendship that: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams wrote "This is my religion ,  joy and exaltation in my own existence ,  so go ahead and snarl ,  bite ,  howl, you Calvinistic divines and all you who say I am no Christian. I say you are not Christian." Regarding the trinity, he wrote this to Jefferson, "Tom, had you and I been 40 days with Moses, and beheld the great God, and even if God himself had tried to tell us that three was one ,  and one equals three, you and I would never have believed it. We would never fall victims to such lies."

Thomas Jefferson, [/b]the sole author of the Declaration of Independence (outside of minor word changes), called the Bible a "dunghill" and said that to remove a few of the teachings of Jesus was to "remove the few diamonds from the dunghill." Other quotes: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" and "The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

[b]Benjamin Franklin wrote: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

James Madison wrote: "During almost 15 centuries the legal establishment known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been its fruits, more or less in all places? THESE ARE THE FRUITS: Pride, indolence, ignorance and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance ,  arrogance and servility in the laity and IN BOTH CLERGY AND LAITY superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Thomas Paine, who inspired both James Madison and Abraham Lincoln, wrote: "When I see throughout this book, called the Bible, a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales and stories, I could not so dishonor my Creator by calling it by His name."

Abraham Lincoln said: "I have never united myself to any church because I could not give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine and dogma which characterize their articles of belief and confession of faith. When any church will require only the Great Commandment (the Jewish Shema) for belief, then I will join that church." Lincoln would never be baptized ,  he would never make any profession of "Christian" faith ,  he would never affiliate with any church or denomination ,  he never subscribed to any liturgy or ritual. His own wife said, "My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think."

Perhaps the point is made for those who would care to pursue it further prior to making statements that will cause the enlightened to blush with embarrassment.

A show of hands on how many would like our Founding Fathers' religious orientation to have been different is not going to change the facts. In the interest of integrity, let us not be celebrating what never was, for there is much we can celebrate that was. The wells of significant, profound and enriching "religion" ran far deeper in most of these men than in a great many orthodox Christians ,  of both yesterday and today.

Too many of us are like the priests in Galileo's day who refused to look through the telescope for fear of what they might see. And too many of us are like the lady who, when first told about evolution, responded with, "Well, let us pray to God that it is not true, but IF IT IS TRUE, then let us pray to God nobody ever hears about it."

Source

Abeg they were majority Freemasons. You deny that?

These men were not believers but Deists, Masons, cult members etc.

The conclusion of the matter is this, let us not look to a nation or a man for validation of our faith and the scriptures, look unto Jesus Christ , who is the author and finisher of our faith.

America is not a Christian , Muslim or religious country, it is a capitalist secular country , that relegates God to the background while only verbally acknowledging the Christian God for political reasons.

Contrary to popular opinion,  there is no Christian country on earth.

Our kingdom is not of this world, but it is surely going to be established soon and very soon, by the Might and Power of our Saviour and King of Kings , Lord  Jesus Christ.

Take your example from the great men of the bible , instead.

Hebrews 11:8-10 - "By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.  By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.  For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. "

Hebrews 11:13 -16 - "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.  People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.  If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

Hebrew 11:24-26 - "By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward."

Frosbel is finally getting enlightened. Don't worry. . .with time, the scales will fall off completely.

that is not totally true some of them where christians

harakiri:

Frosbel is finally getting enlightened. Don't worry. . .with time, the scales will fall off completely.

Mr. don't count me into your league of God deniers, I am very inquisitive by nature and have questioned the bible thoroughly , and it stands as the word of GOD and Truth.

My faith in GOD is unshakeable.

What I find worrying is a lot of myths masquerading as Christianity , and Bible authentic , but when assessed in the light of scripture ,they are utter lies.

These Myths have to be rebuffed.

As for Jesus , he is GOD and LORD, may the scales of darkness fall from the eyes of your spiritual understanding. Say Amen to this.

crossman9:

that is not totally true some of them where christians

Please name some, and be very aware, that God is not building a nation or nations , but a Church with Jesus Christ as the HEAD.

It is this church that will form the foundation of the new heaven and the new earth.

So let us be wary of attributing Christian attributes to many men who have been found out to be liars, heretics and deceivers.

I am waiting for these names please, thanks.

frosbel:


Abraham Lincoln said: "I have never united myself to any church because I could not give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine and dogma which characterize their articles of belief and confession of faith. When any church will require only the Great Commandment (the Jewish Shema) for belief, then I will join that church." Lincoln would never be baptized ,  he would never make any profession of "Christian" faith ,  he would never affiliate with any church or denomination ,  he never subscribed to any liturgy or ritual. His own wife said, "My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think."

Too many of us are like the priests in Galileo's day who refused to look through the telescope for fear of what they might see. And too many of us are like the lady who, when first told about evolution, responded with, "Well, let us pray to God that it is not true, but IF IT IS TRUE, then let us pray to God nobody ever hears about it."

Source

My brother, you have said the truth. These men claim to believe the bible but manifest the characteristics of cults. You need to see how American go crazy about buying some nonsense daily devotion by Abraham Lincoln and popularly sold by TBN and other Christians TV. They will never hammer on people reading the bible as daily devotion but will rather prefer to make gains out of God's people. I see a lot of falsehood here in the USA. God help us.

frosbel:

Please name some, and be very aware, that God is not building a nation or nations , but a Church with Jesus Christ as the HEAD.

It is this church that will form the foundation of the new heaven and the new earth.

So let us be wary of attributing Christian attributes to many men who have been found out to be liars, heretics and deceivers.

I am waiting for these names please, thanks.

God knows those that are His'.  I believe some if not all believed in God as the Creator of heaven and earth, many were creationists not evolutionists.  Let me start with Christopher Columbus (1451-1506) who was the first European to discover America.

In a prayer taken from a letter to the sovereigns of Spain, dated October of 1492, we read:

"O Lord, Almighty and everlasting God, by thy holy Word Thou hast created the heaven, and the earth, and the sea. . . ." And later, "(May you) . . . be well received before the eternal Creator, to whom I pray. . . ." (Las Casas' abstract of Columbus' Journal of the First Voyage.)

The question is whether he was just religious or was he a practising Christian?

frosbel:

The following is taken from the book "Toward The Mystery" by Rev. William Edelen. He is an active ordained Presbyterian and Congregational minister for 30 years. Adjunct professor of Religious Studies and Anthropology, University of Puget Sound Tacoma, Washington.

Begin Quote:

Founding Fathers Would Howl If Called Christian

In few other areas of American history is there such a distortion of facts as there is regarding the religious orientation of our Founding Fathers.

A recent Guest Opinion columnist wrote in The Idaho Statesman that: "200 years ago, having religion meant one's life had been drastically altered by the saving lordship of Jesus Christ. Our country was founded by 'born again' men of heart and mind." Those statements are absurd.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin (and even Abraham Lincoln, another of our most admired Presidents) must be turning over in their graves and weeping at such a perversion of their beliefs.

Our most distinguished Founding Fathers did not believe in a "personal" God ,  they did not believe that the Bible was anything other than literature ,  and they had an almost contempt for the Christian clergy and Christian doctrine. "God" was to them "nature's god"; an impersonal form, or "providence." Thomas Paine said it for all of them in these words: "Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie."

In the interest of truth and integrity, I will let these brilliant men speak for themselves:

George Washington refused to ever take communion (looking upon it as superstition), refused to recite liturgy and refused to kneel. Historians classify him as a deist, as did his contemporaries. He never, at any time, professed any "Christian" doctrine or dogma. Episcopalian Bishop Wilson declared Washington to be "only a Unitarian if anything." Historians say that Washington recommended and concurred with American Consul Joel Barlow's statement, written in the Treaty of Peace and Friendship that: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams wrote "This is my religion ,  joy and exaltation in my own existence ,  so go ahead and snarl ,  bite ,  howl, you Calvinistic divines and all you who say I am no Christian. I say you are not Christian." Regarding the trinity, he wrote this to Jefferson, "Tom, had you and I been 40 days with Moses, and beheld the great God, and even if God himself had tried to tell us that three was one ,  and one equals three, you and I would never have believed it. We would never fall victims to such lies."

Thomas Jefferson, [/b]the sole author of the Declaration of Independence (outside of minor word changes), called the Bible a "dunghill" and said that to remove a few of the teachings of Jesus was to "remove the few diamonds from the dunghill." Other quotes: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" and "The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

[b]Benjamin Franklin wrote: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

James Madison wrote: "During almost 15 centuries the legal establishment known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been its fruits, more or less in all places? THESE ARE THE FRUITS: Pride, indolence, ignorance and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance ,  arrogance and servility in the laity and IN BOTH CLERGY AND LAITY superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Thomas Paine, who inspired both James Madison and Abraham Lincoln, wrote: "When I see throughout this book, called the Bible, a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales and stories, I could not so dishonor my Creator by calling it by His name."

Abraham Lincoln said: "I have never united myself to any church because I could not give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine and dogma which characterize their articles of belief and confession of faith. When any church will require only the Great Commandment (the Jewish Shema) for belief, then I will join that church." Lincoln would never be baptized ,  he would never make any profession of "Christian" faith ,  he would never affiliate with any church or denomination ,  he never subscribed to any liturgy or ritual. His own wife said, "My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think."

Perhaps the point is made for those who would care to pursue it further prior to making statements that will cause the enlightened to blush with embarrassment.

A show of hands on how many would like our Founding Fathers' religious orientation to have been different is not going to change the facts. In the interest of integrity, let us not be celebrating what never was, for there is much we can celebrate that was. The wells of significant, profound and enriching "religion" ran far deeper in most of these men than in a great many orthodox Christians ,  of both yesterday and today.

Too many of us are like the priests in Galileo's day who refused to look through the telescope for fear of what they might see. And too many of us are like the lady who, when first told about evolution, responded with, "Well, let us pray to God that it is not true, but IF IT IS TRUE, then let us pray to God nobody ever hears about it."

Source

Frosbel we are waiting for you to join our unbelieve in god cos you are gradually reasoning objectively and need a little bit of more objective reasoning to see the entire truth unlike most other christians that completely try to avoid to get some form of knowledge outside what the bible tells them

2good:

Frosbel we are waiting for you to join our unbelieve in god cos you are gradually reasoning objectively and need a little bit of more objective reasoning to see the entire truth unlike most other christians that completely try to avoid to get some form of knowledge outside what the bible tells them

God forbid, I was one blind but now can see, and you are inviting me back into darkness.

My point in this article is that America is not a Christian nation, we should not look to earthly empires to fulfil our mission for Christ, we should emulate the great men of God and rely on God and his kingdom alone.

Thanks,

@Frosbel

Please listen to them and take Heed. I can testify Nairaland have made me to see things in a different light though i may still say how faithful i am.

wikipedia might help just type in america and see lots of information that might intrest u also type catholic church, yall can also check ur church like christ embassy etc

babaearly:

@Frosbel

Please listen to them and take Heed. I can testify Nairaland have made me to see things in a different light though i may still say how faithful i am.

You lost me with this one

Please read my comments, the purpose of this article is to exhort the true brethren , thanks.

OLAADEGBU:

God knows those that are His'.  I believe some if not all believed in God as the Creator of heaven and earth, many were creationists not evolutionists.  Let me start with Christopher Columbus (1451-1506) who was the first European to discover America.

In a prayer taken from a letter to the sovereigns of Spain, dated October of 1492, we read:

"O Lord, Almighty and everlasting God, by thy holy Word Thou hast created the heaven, and the earth, and the sea. . . ." And later, "(May you) . . . be well received before the eternal Creator, to whom I pray. . . ." (Las Casas' abstract of Columbus' Journal of the First Voyage.)

The question is whether he was just religious or was he a practising Christian?

There may have been 'Christians', but how can we call Christopher Columbus a Christian ( appears he was catholic ) , after the violence he unleashed on the native Indians.

Also he was not first man to discover America , America belonged to the native Indians, 

Just like our western brothers rewrite history and tell us Mungo Park discovered River Niger, even though it was always a part and parcel of our culture for centuries.

Anybody can pray to God for a show , I have seen many in my life time, Jesus saw many too.

For me , my model is JESUS CHRIST, Period !!!

In the past, I followed Man and fairy tales , and almost fell into a ditch .

goshen360:

My brother, you have said the truth. These men claim to believe the bible but manifest the characteristics of cults. You need to see how American go crazy about buying some nonsense daily devotion by Abraham Lincoln and popularly sold by TBN and other Christians TV. They will never hammer on people reading the bible as daily devotion but will rather prefer to make gains out of God's people. I see a lot of falsehood here in the USA. God help us.

TBN has hosted multitudes of false prophets and teachers, God help us, you are right.

frosbel:


There may have been 'Christians', but how can we call Christopher Columbus a Christian ( appears he was catholic ) , after the violence he unleashed on the native Indians.[color=#006600][/color]Also he was not first man to discover America , America belonged to the native Indians,

Just like our western brothers rewrite history and tell us Mungo Park discovered River Niger, even though it was always a part and parcel of our culture for centuries.

Anybody can pray to God for a show , I have seen many in my life time, Jesus saw many too.

For me , my model is JESUS CHRIST, Period !!!

In the past, I followed Man and fairy tales , and almost fell into a ditch .

Columbus actually didn't set foot on American soil, dude was looking to go to India. Amerigo Vespucci and Ferdinand Magelan came later.

frosbel:


There may have been 'Christians', but how can we call Christopher Columbus a Christian ( appears he was catholic ) , after the violence he unleashed on the native Indians.

Can you please supply the evidence that he actually unleashed violence on the natives if he did?

frosbel:

Also he was not first man to discover America , America belonged to the native Indians,

Just like our western brothers rewrite history and tell us Mungo Park discovered River Niger, even though it was always a part and parcel of our culture for centuries.

I hope you noticed that I stated that he was the first European that discovered America as it was not part of the generally known world.

frosbel:

Anybody can pray to God for a show , I have seen many in my life time, Jesus saw many too.

For me , my model is JESUS CHRIST, Period !!!

In the past, I followed Man and fairy tales , and almost fell into a ditch .

Your topic is whether America's founding fathers were Christians or not. It is not about following man and fairytales as you said you had been following before. Let's stay on the topic and investigate some of these founding fathers to see if they were really Christians.

This is what inspired Christopher Columbus in his discovery of the "New World"

"It was the Lord who put it into my mind . . . I could feel His hand upon me . . . There is no question the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures. . . No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service. The gospel must still be preached to so many lands in such a short time. This is what convinces me."

-- Christopher Columbus (from his diary, in reference to his discovery of "the New World".

OLAADEGBU:

Can you please supply the evidence that he actually unleashed violence on the natives if he did?

I hope you noticed that I stated that he was the first European that discovered America as it was not part of the generally known world.

Your topic is whether America's founding fathers were Christians or not.  It is not about following man and fairytales as you said you had been following before.  Let's stay on the topic and investigate some of these founding fathers to see if they were really Christians.

This is what inspired Christopher Columbus in his discovery of the "New World"

"It was the Lord who put it into my mind . . . I could feel His hand upon me . . . There is no question the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures. . . No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service.  The gospel must still be preached to so many lands in such a short time.  This is what convinces me." 

-- Christopher Columbus (from his diary, in reference to his discovery of "the New World".

Whatever. They're all dead now, so they can't speak for themselves. What is plain though is that America was founded firmly on principles of righteousness and the fear of God. And they have experienced national and true 'christian' revivals that has changed their course greatly. It's incomparable to simply playing religion as widely seen in nigeria and most of Africa. Religion is not righteousness, that's the difference. America was righteousness, though they're obviously falling now. They are destroying the superstructure, and if care's not taken, will tamper with the foundation.

Image123:

Whatever. They're all dead now, so they can't speak for themselves. What is plain though is that America was founded firmly on principles of righteousness and the fear of God. And they have experienced national and true 'christian' revivals that has changed their course greatly. It's incomparable to simply playing religion as widely seen in nigeria and most of Africa. Religion is not righteousness, that's the difference. America was righteousness, though they're obviously falling now. They are destroying the superstructure, and if care's not taken, will tamper with the foundation.

Founded on Christian principles, yeah right !! and the red Indians were almost wiped out, black slaves were brutalised, wars were started in the name of God when in fact they were meant to plunder and steal the resources of other nations.

The puritans and quakers, and all other such groups did indeed influence American culture, they were able to thrive because of the freedom to practise their religion, there was no persecution like they experienced in England, so Christianity thrived and spread like wild fire , the real Christianity.

However this brand of Christian has been watered down and only a few remnant are holding on to the truth.

Again, Jesus did not die to establish a Christian nation, he died to establish a pure , holy and righteous church.

Image123:

Whatever. They're all dead now, so they can't speak for themselves. What is plain though is that America was founded firmly on principles of righteousness and the fear of God. And they have experienced national and true 'christian' revivals that has changed their course greatly. It's incomparable to simply playing religion as widely seen in nigeria and most of Africa. Religion is not righteousness, that's the difference. America was righteousness, though they're obviously falling now. They are destroying the superstructure, and if care's not taken, will tamper with the foundation.

How does enslaving an entire race for about three centuries and almost extermination of the native indians amount to being righteous in christianity? For your information, slavery was officially ended by Abraham Lincoln in 1865 while discrimination against blacks and other minorities continued for almost a century till the civil right movement officially made congress to create laws to protect minorities in the 1960's.
How does all that amount to being righteous? I dont know why you throw away your common sense of reasoning, just to look for cheap points to buttress your imaginary religious believes

2good:

Frosbel we are waiting for you to join our unbelieve in god cos you are gradually reasoning objectively and need a little bit of more objective reasoning to see the entire truth unlike most other christians that completely try to avoid to get some form of knowledge outside what the bible tells them

frosbel should have seen the handwriting on the wall a long time ago. This post confirms the fact that he had started on a journey that is leading him to a point of no return. I don't need to say more.

frosbel: The following is taken from the book "Toward The Mystery" by Rev. William Edelen. He is an active ordained Presbyterian and Congregational minister for 30 years. Adjunct professor of Religious Studies and Anthropology, University of Puget Sound Tacoma, Washington.

Begin Quote:

Founding Fathers Would Howl If Called Christian

In few other areas of American history is there such a distortion of facts as there is regarding the religious orientation of our Founding Fathers.

A recent Guest Opinion columnist wrote in The Idaho Statesman that: "200 years ago, having religion meant one's life had been drastically altered by the saving lordship of Jesus Christ. Our country was founded by 'born again' men of heart and mind." Those statements are absurd.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin (and even Abraham Lincoln, another of our most admired Presidents) must be turning over in their graves and weeping at such a perversion of their beliefs.

Our most distinguished Founding Fathers did not believe in a "personal" God ,  they did not believe that the Bible was anything other than literature ,  and they had an almost contempt for the Christian clergy and Christian doctrine. "God" was to them "nature's god"; an impersonal form, or "providence." Thomas Paine said it for all of them in these words: "Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie."

In the interest of truth and integrity, I will let these brilliant men speak for themselves:

George Washington refused to ever take communion (looking upon it as superstition), refused to recite liturgy and refused to kneel. Historians classify him as a deist, as did his contemporaries. He never, at any time, professed any "Christian" doctrine or dogma. Episcopalian Bishop Wilson declared Washington to be "only a Unitarian if anything." Historians say that Washington recommended and concurred with American Consul Joel Barlow's statement, written in the Treaty of Peace and Friendship that: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams wrote "This is my religion ,  joy and exaltation in my own existence ,  so go ahead and snarl ,  bite ,  howl, you Calvinistic divines and all you who say I am no Christian. I say you are not Christian." Regarding the trinity, he wrote this to Jefferson, "Tom, had you and I been 40 days with Moses, and beheld the great God, and even if God himself had tried to tell us that three was one ,  and one equals three, you and I would never have believed it. We would never fall victims to such lies."

Thomas Jefferson, [/b]the sole author of the Declaration of Independence (outside of minor word changes), called the Bible a "dunghill" and said that to remove a few of the teachings of Jesus was to "remove the few diamonds from the dunghill." Other quotes: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" and "The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

[b]Benjamin Franklin wrote: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

James Madison wrote: "During almost 15 centuries the legal establishment known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been its fruits, more or less in all places? THESE ARE THE FRUITS: Pride, indolence, ignorance and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance ,  arrogance and servility in the laity and IN BOTH CLERGY AND LAITY superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Thomas Paine, who inspired both James Madison and Abraham Lincoln, wrote: "When I see throughout this book, called the Bible, a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales and stories, I could not so dishonor my Creator by calling it by His name."

Abraham Lincoln said: "I have never united myself to any church because I could not give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine and dogma which characterize their articles of belief and confession of faith. When any church will require only the Great Commandment (the Jewish Shema) for belief, then I will join that church." Lincoln would never be baptized ,  he would never make any profession of "Christian" faith ,  he would never affiliate with any church or denomination ,  he never subscribed to any liturgy or ritual. His own wife said, "My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think."

Perhaps the point is made for those who would care to pursue it further prior to making statements that will cause the enlightened to blush with embarrassment.

A show of hands on how many would like our Founding Fathers' religious orientation to have been different is not going to change the facts. In the interest of integrity, let us not be celebrating what never was, for there is much we can celebrate that was. The wells of significant, profound and enriching "religion" ran far deeper in most of these men than in a great many orthodox Christians ,  of both yesterday and today.

Too many of us are like the priests in Galileo's day who refused to look through the telescope for fear of what they might see. And too many of us are like the lady who, when first told about evolution, responded with, "Well, let us pray to God that it is not true, but IF IT IS TRUE, then let us pray to God nobody ever hears about it."

Source

I am glad that admit the fallacy of this age old myth that America was founded by Christians.

America was founded by great thinkers, men who loathed christianity and who sought to emasculate it.

Image123: Whatever. They're all dead now, so they can't speak for themselves. What is plain though is that America was founded firmly on principles of righteousness and the fear of God. And they have experienced national and true 'christian' revivals that has changed their course greatly. It's incomparable to simply playing religion as widely seen in nigeria and most of Africa. Religion is not righteousness, that's the difference. America was righteousness, though they're obviously falling now. They are destroying the superstructure, and if care's not taken, will tamper with the foundation.

Hhhhmmm.
So you admit that righteousness can exist with out the acceptance of Jesus and the bible?

Americas founding fathers were mostly deists or freemasons.

Only fanatics believe otherwise.


“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it......” Joseph Goebbels quotes

.

frosbel: Americas founding fathers were mostly deists or freemasons.

Only fanatics believe otherwise.


“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it......” Joseph Goebbels quotes

I'll give you another quote. " truth is so precious and delicate(and perhaps devastating), that it must protected by a battalion of lies"- The mother church.

plaetton:

Hhhhmmm.
So you admit that righteousness can exist with out the acceptance of Jesus and the bible?

the principles, yes. Like kindness, honesty, hardwork, helping the less privileged, integrity, peace making etc. But righteousness itself as a quality indispensable to the Kingdom of God is only accessible in Christ Jesus.