jedisco:


My issue is why the government still retains such high bond rates even when it's obvious they'd still be oversubscribed at much lower rates. It doesn't just add up. Imagine lending money from your bank and also asking them to increase the lending rate because you're feeling generous.

Even if the overall value that comes from such projects well exceeds the payout, we know that would not accure to the government directly to facilitate payouts. Every country prints money- this has become more obvious with COVID. How they use such money is what differentiates sensible nations from others.

I have reattached a snapshot of 10yr bond rates of different nations. Some are in the negative (i.e folks pay to hold bonds), some well in the positive. Irrespective of whether it's a chicken or egg scenario, one thing is clear- the performance of the national currencies with the highest paying bonds tend to be abysmal... The profits may look good on the surface, but the maths will always add up.

I was shocked to see smaller African countries with bond return rate of less than 5%.
I think the bond rate in Nigeria is kept high to prevent capital flight. If the rates are low, investors may move to other countries to seek for better rates which will affect exchange rates.
It’s interesting though that since the pension funds are the largest investors, then this may not be valid as there are rules guiding where they can invest in.

Phyde:

StanbicIBTC-DebtCapitalMarkets@stanbicibtc.com

Provided he paid to the Stanbic IBTC Bank account, there are up to 5 account numbers in the form

Olaide1295:

I was shocked to see smaller African countries with bond return rate of less than 5%.
I think the bond rate in Nigeria is kept high to prevent capital flight. If the rates are low, investors may move to other countries to seek for better rates which will affect exchange rates.
It’s interesting though that since the pension funds are the largest investors, then this may not be valid as there are rules guiding where they can invest in.

Pension Funds must also meet up with inflation and currency devaluation

jedisco:


My issue is why the government still retains such high bond rates even when it's obvious they'd still be oversubscribed at much lower rates. It doesn't just add up. Imagine lending money from your bank and also asking them to increase the lending rate because you're feeling generous.

Even if the overall value that comes from such projects well exceeds the payout, we know that would not accure to the government directly to facilitate payouts. Every country prints money- this has become more obvious with COVID. How they use such money is what differentiates sensible nations from others.

I have reattached a snapshot of 10yr bond rates of different nations. Some are in the negative (i.e folks pay to hold bonds), some well in the positive. Irrespective of whether it's a chicken or egg scenario, one thing is clear- the performance of the national currencies with the highest paying bonds tend to be abysmal... The profits may look good on the surface, but the maths will always add up.

First, given the current realities on ground - the weakening exchange rate, 2 digit inflation etc - will you put your money down for the next 10 years or more at 3% or less per annum in Naira? Please, answer me, will you?

You know, the people who organize or set these rates are not illiterates, sometimes we should cut these people in authority some slack, some of them are well educated professionals in their field.

Plus, I don't like to simply compare numbers without thoroughly analysing "the other factors".

Did u compare things like;
1. Inflation rates
2. Currency exchange risks
3. Stability issues
4. Risk of default
5. Interest rates

All of the above and more for d next 10 years or more.

emmanuelewumi:



Did you pay to the Stanbic IBTC Bank account number in the form

Yes l did and sent an email but it was sent back that it can't be delivered

You are absoultely correct, fix income investments is mostly meant for salary earners who does not have business ideas, business people who have spare cash and have not decided what to use it for, people who are not frugal.

It's alway best to put your money in business.

ositadima1:


First, given the current realities on ground - the weakening exchange rate, 2 digit inflation etc - will you put your money down for the next 10 years or more at 3% or less per annum in Naira? Please, answer me, will you?

You know, the people who organize or set these rates are not illiterates, sometimes we should cut these people in authority some slack, some of them are well educated professionals in their field.

Plus, I don't like to simply compare numbers without thoroughly analysing "the other factors".

Did u compare things like;
1. Inflation rates
2. Currency exchange risks
3. Stability issues
4. Risk of default
5. Interest rates

All of the above and more for d next 10 years or more.

Yes l paid into stanbic bank.btw,am a she o.thank you for your help.quote author=emmanuelewumi post=108719268]


Provided he paid to the Stanbic IBTC Bank account, there are up to 5 account numbers in the form[/quote]

DMO and CBN usually consider inflation and currency devaluation before they decide on the coupons on bond.

8 years ago, Investors got over 16% on bond.

N10 million invested 8 years ago on FG bond at 15% and the annual coupons are invested and compounded in a conservative Fixed income Fund at 13% would have grown to almost N30 million in 8 years to catch up with inflation and devaluation

Yes,l used the same email address,all in lower cases but it was returned back

Phyde:

StanbicIBTC-DebtCapitalMarkets@stanbicibtc.com

XiaoLi:
You are absoultely correct, fix income investments is mostly meant for salary earners who does not have business ideas, business people who have spare cash and have not decided what to use it for, people who are not frugal.

It's alway best to put your money in business.

And people interested in passive income or saving for a targeted purchases

XiaoLi:
You are absoultely correct, fix income investments is mostly meant for salary earners who does not have business ideas, business people who have spare cash and have not decided what to use it for, people who are not frugal.

It's alway best to put your money in business.

It depends on what you intend to achieve with the fund.like I did it for one of my kid educational purpose. From my invested amount,50 percent of yearly payment will pay his present 3 term yearly secondary payment and the remaining 50 percent will be reinvested against uni.I didn't want to put it in business because of high risk associated with business,like this year was not stable for business because of consistent increase in cost of goods.It only favoured those who really had goods stocked in thr way houses before it really started increasing in price.

Thehilah4jesus:


Yes l did and sent an email but it was sent back that it can't be delivered

You can use other banks or agent or issuing Houses.

The joint issuing houses are Greenwich,Stanbic and Vetiva. You can subscribe through any of them.


To invest in the FGN Sukuk Issuance through Greenwich, Kindly complete the subscription form and make payment into

GSL/FGN Series IV Sukuk
Access Bank Account Number
1517480518.

Then send the completed forms and evidence of payment to:

fgnseries1vsukuk@greenwichbankgroup.com.

Include your CHN and Stockbroker in the mail if you have one.

Olaide1295:

I was shocked to see smaller African countries with bond return rate of less than 5%.
I think the bond rate in Nigeria is kept high to prevent capital flight. If the rates are low, investors may move to other countries to seek for better rates which will affect exchange rates.
It’s interesting though that since the pension funds are the largest investors, then this may not be valid as there are rules guiding where they can invest in.

Do your research on why those countries have low interest rates before misleading people with confidence abeg.

Those countries are mainly francophone countries that have their currency (CFA) pegged to the Euro. Kenya, Ghana and other anglophone countries that their currencies are not pegged do not have low rates.

ositadima1:


First, given the current realities on ground - the weakening exchange rate, 2 digit inflation etc - will you put your money down for the next 10 years or more at 3% or less per annum in Naira? Please, answer me, will you?

You know, the people who organize or set these rates are not illiterates, sometimes we should cut these people in authority some slack, some of them are well educated professionals in their field.

Plus, I don't like to simply compare numbers without thoroughly analysing "the other factors".

Did u compare things like;
1. Inflation rates
2. Currency exchange risks
3. Stability issues
4. Risk of default
5. Interest rates

All of the above and more for d next 10 years or more.

Bolded is 100 per cent on point. Nigerian arm chair analysts always think they know better than the renowned economists trying their best to fix this mess called Nigerian economy..

Nigeria’s economy is so complex that even the best American economists will give up trying to study and understand it. That’s if they don’t run mad sef

Olaide1295:

I was shocked to see smaller African countries with bond return rate of less than 5%.
I think the bond rate in Nigeria is kept high to prevent capital flight. If the rates are low, investors may move to other countries to seek for better rates which will affect exchange rates.
It’s interesting though that since the pension funds are the largest investors, then this may not be valid as there are rules guiding where they can invest in.

The issue of capital flight was one of the reasons we thought TB rates were kept high but this has been shown to be false as even with current TB rates, they're still oversubscribed to a tune of 16x.

One thing is quite clear- the government can fulfill their need for local funds at much lower rates. What no one has answered is why then is a government that spends majority of its revenue servicing loans still offering such rates on bonds when they can afford to push rates lower? It defies logic

emmanuelewumi:


You must be the defender of the helpless and the universe.

If you can't beat them, join them provided it is legal or position yourself to harness opportunities as they emerge. That is the essence of Investment forum.

We can talk about the socio-political implications on the political threads of Nairaland

This is an investment thread and I look at all aspects when I do. Like I said previously, I'm not critiquing any person taking up the offer as it is a good one.

My analogy is simple- if my means of building wealth and sending my kids abroad is thru a means whose end result ensures a good number of kids in my community are left uneducated, then it's only a matter of time before I start asking myself if I want to remain in a community that'd have that number of uneducated adults. As we reap the benefits of a suspect government policy, the profits shouldn't blind us from asking those in power the right questions.

ositadima1:


First, given the current realities on ground - the weakening exchange rate, 2 digit inflation etc - will you put your money down for the next 10 years or more at 3% or less per annum in Naira? Please, answer me, will you?

You know, the people who organize or set these rates are not illiterates, sometimes we should cut these people in authority some slack, some of them are well educated professionals in their field.

Plus, I don't like to simply compare numbers without thoroughly analysing "the other factors".

Did u compare things like;
1. Inflation rates
2. Currency exchange risks
3. Stability issues
4. Risk of default
5. Interest rates

All of the above and more for d next 10 years or more.

First, you get me wrong on one thing. I'm not critiquing the sukkuk bond as a good investment choice for an individual or not. As a matter of fact, for someone who has slush funds and putting all things together, I'd see it as one of the best investment opportunities currently in the country.
What I don't understand is why a government that spends majority of it's revenue servicing debts is taking on more local debt at such rates when it could easily push rates lower and still get the funds it needs. What the government is doing is rewarding portfolio investors at the expense of the masses.

Besides, 'our leaders know better' has never been the answer to such questions.
Let me give obvious scenarios
Nigeria has comparatively about the lowest minimum wage but still has about the highest earning political class, same nation still has areas where over 80% of kids are not in education, same nation is still struggling to have a functional refinery, same political class are still making an argument for normadic cattle rearing in 2021.
Everything I mentioned are commonsensical issues where the nation has failed at

Where I very well disagree with you is that our 'professionals' in power as I believe they are given too much slack. That slack is part of the reason why our nation is where it is. Imagine hundreds of citizens being killed on the daily by bandits and the answer is our president knows better.

'Our leaders know better' isn't the answer

I've taken so much hit over the last page simply cos I asked a question- why a government that spends majority of it's revenue servicing debts is taking on more local debt at such high rates when it could easily push rates lower and still get the funds it needs.

I have not been against anyone taking part in the sukkuk offering. I'd say it's one of the best investment opportunities in the country- to me much better than the NSE and perhaps even real estate.

The CBN gov the other day was talking about creating an investment vehicle to enable institutional cash which is sitting on bank balances to be invested in the real sector. I wonder how he aims to achieve that when bonds are at bonanza rates.

Someone said that in Nigeria, folks only complain of corruption when they don't benefit. To be clear, bonds are very much legal and this is one I could very much benefit from. But does it mean that no one is willing to ask questions about the attendant long-term effects of such high rates once they are beneficiaries?

jedisco:


First, you get me wrong on one thing. I'm not critiquing the sukkuk bond as a good investment choice for an individual or not. As a matter of fact, for someone who has slush funds and putting all things together, I'd see it as one of the best investment opportunities currently in the country.
What I don't understand is why a government that spends majority of it's revenue servicing debts is taking on more local debt at such rates when it could easily push rates lower and still get the funds it needs. What the government is doing is rewarding portfolio investors at the expense of the masses.

Besides, 'our leaders know better' has never been the answer to such questions.
Let me give obvious scenarios
Nigeria has comparatively about the lowest minimum wage but still has about the highest earning political class, same nation still has areas where over 80% of kids are not in education, same nation is still struggling to have a functional refinery, same political class are still making an argument for normadic cattle rearing in 2021.
Everything I mentioned are commonsensical issues where the nation has failed at

Where I very well disagree with you is that our 'professionals' in power as I believe they are given too much slack. That slack is part of the reason why our nation is where it is. Imagine hundreds of citizens being killed on the daily by bandits and the answer is our president knows better.

'Our leaders know better' isn't the answer

Will you buy a 10 years FGN bond at 3%? Will you give a loan at 3% for the next 10 years

Investors are not fools, the people at CBN and DMO are not fools.

Nobody will buy a FGN bond at 3%, rather it will lead to a bullish run in the secondary market for bonds as we have few months ago when bonds enjoyed 60% and more capital appreciation from their bond Investments

The pricing of a bond must consider inflation and currency devaluation.

jedisco:


The issue of capital flight was one of the reasons we thought TB rates were kept high but this has been shown to be false as even with current TB rates, they're still oversubscribed to a tune of 16x.

One thing is quite clear- the government can fulfill their need for local funds at much lower rates. What no one has answered is why then is a government that spends majority of its revenue servicing loans still offering such rates on bonds when they can afford to push rates lower? It defies logic

It is a two way thing, when bond returns are low funds move to the stock market, when the stock market is bullish prices of bonds will fall and yield can be as high as 20%.

Successful Investors will always move funds to the asset classes that will give good returns be it real estate, metals, commodities, money market, forex, bonds, equities etc.

If a 10 year FGN bond at 12% should go down to 6% in the primary market.
Automatically the prices of such bonds in the secondary market will increase from N100 to N200.

Current bondholders will be the winners, such Investors sold their Investments few months at profit margins of 60% and above and moved their funds into equities to Target stocks that have double digits dividend yields

Lazyyouth4u:


Do your research on why those countries have low interest rates before misleading people with confidence abeg.

Those countries are mainly francophone countries that have their currency (CFA) pegged to the Euro. Kenya, Ghana and other anglophone countries that their currencies are not pegged do not have low rates.

I speak of Rwanda.
Developing country, low interest rate, organic growth. No peg to Euro. They do managed float like Nigeria.

.

Any so called Nigerian businessman that can't deliver a minimum profit margin of 13% in a year, should close shop and put his money in money market fund instead of lamenting about interest of payment of 18% per annum on loans

Good evening Oga Emma nd other gurus in the house, Pls what are the likely charges on a 2 million naira worth of FGN BOND with stanbic stockbroking firm. Because the last time I bought fgn bond I was charged #13,000 and this is not the case in sukuk and treasury bill purchase.
Thanks in anticipation of your earliest possible response

I am not a naira investment expert but to the guy asking why can't the government lower the interest rate.

If naira interest rate drops to 7%. Please why will I invest in naira when I can invest in KES at 10%, USD at 7%? Note that historically and even the futures of these currencies are way stronger than the naira.

What I think the government should do is to fix electricity, fix security and make sure the environment is more conducive for business. All these portfolio investments won't move the needle in terms of the productivity of the citizens.

Akerewe:
Good evening Oga Emma nd other gurus in the house, Pls what are the likely charges on a 2 million naira worth of FGN BOND with stanbic stockbroking firm. Because the last time I bought fgn bond I was charged #13,000 and this is not the case in sukuk and treasury bill purchase.
Thanks in anticipation of your earliest possible response

That is less than 1% na.

Which of the bonds did you buy?

How many units did you buy?

What was the clean price?

What was the dirty price?

When is the coupon payment date?

Tobex4realTobex234:
I am not a naira investment expert but to the guy asking why can't the government lower the interest rate.

If naira interest rate drops to 7%. Please why will I invest in naira when I can invest in KES at 10%, USD at 7%? Note that historically and even the futures of these currencies are way stronger than the naira.

What I think the government should do is to fix electricity, fix security and make sure the environment is more conducive for business. All these portfolio investments won't move the needle in terms of the productivity of the citizens.

We need money to fix electricity, security and infrastructure.


Chapel Hill Denham has a N50 billion Infrastructure bond Fund, United Capital is planning a N100 billion Infrastructure bond Fund for early 2020, Stanbic IBTC Asset Management has a N100 billion Infrastructure bond Fund, all these funds have a yield of about 14%.

SEC, PENCOM, CBN and the Investment community are looking at a multi billion dollar Infrastructure and real estate bond fund.


Waiting for government to fix our infrastructures won't deliver results

emmanuelewumi:



That is less than 1% na.

Which of the bonds did you buy?

How many units did you buy?

What was the clean price?

What was the dirty price?

When is the coupon payment date?

12.40% FGN MAR 2036 (FG132036S2) at a clean price of 101 and Dirty price of N104.23

I just want to know if the charges are normal! Yes it's les than 1%. I actually got 1.5m worth of bond then

Akerewe:


12.40% FGN MAR 2036 (FG132036S2) at a clean price of 101 and Dirty price of N104.23

I just want to know if the charges are normal! Yes it's les than 1%. I actually got 1.5m worth of bond then

They would have made money from the spread of the bid and offer prices

Yes the charges are normal though sometimes you may be given a discount which is usually volume dependent.

Akerewe:


12.40% FGN MAR 2036 (FG132036S2) at a clean price of 101 and Dirty price of N104.23

I just want to know if the charges are normal! Yes it's les than 1%. I actually got 1.5m worth of bond then

Tobex4realTobex234:
I am not a naira investment expert but to the guy asking why can't the government lower the interest rate.

If naira interest rate drops to 7%. Please why will I invest in naira when I can invest in KES at 10%, USD at 7%? Note that historically and even the futures of these currencies are way stronger than the naira.

What I think the government should do is to fix electricity, fix security and make sure the environment is more conducive for business. All these portfolio investments won't move the needle in terms of the productivity of the citizens.

I really don't think the TB and Bonds market will feel the effects if individuals don't invest.
The market is usually oversubscribed 160%. It will get filled with or without.
There is so much Naira liquidity that the CBN sequesters over 12 trillion in bank customer deposits right now. You shouldn't manage liquidity by giving out more liquid cash (in interest). That just seems like kicking the can down the road and it's the masses that will suffer.

The issue becomes chicken and egg. Institutions want higher interest rates to beat inflation/devaluation. In return, CBN hikes rate, thereby leading to even worse devaluation and inflation.