₦airaland Forum

nike4luv:
yea i'l be 15 in..*counts fingers*

well happy b-day to you whenever u turn 15!

[quote author=hot-angel link=topic=2509.msg161205#msg161205 date=1136760563]Aww.. happy early bday. [/quote]thanks!
[quote author=hot-angel link=topic=2509.msg161185#msg161185 date=1136759252]Haha... Whenever i read his posts.. it reminds me of how dumb i am. But then again, i shouldnt compare myself to him.. He's older than me.[/quote]isn't it so fun to write with eloquent words, or use similar (or even exact) words to the ones others use, and it makes you sound smart?

I seem to notice that either no one likes me on here (by here i mean this webiste), or no one knows that i exist yet. Which is it?

I like mine. It's a quote from the movie "Charlie and The Chocolate Factory" Johnny Depp says it. I didn't have enough characters to put in the whole quote, but if i had, it would have looked like this:

Everything in this room is edible. Even I'm Edible! But that, children, is called canabalism which is frowned upon in most contries.


LAMO! Isn't it funny?

[quote author=hot-angel link=topic=2509.msg161185#msg161185 date=1136759252]Haha... Whenever i read his posts.. it reminds me of how dumb i am. But then again, i should compare myself to him.. He's older than me.[/quote]i'm not even half his age. i'll be 15 in 20 days....

Religion, because people believe things, and those don't nessisarily have proof. So the entire time you are mainly arguing on theriories, thougths, ideas. And when you do have any sort of proof, it can be interpritated in litterly zillions of different ways. People within their own religion argue on different things, thats why we have different denominations in the religion of Christianity. Everything usually goes back to religion anyway, because your religion is your frame of referense in which you veiw the world.

Hopless Romantics, or even just Romantics would love this. However there are some people that this would not make them smile. For instance, if my friend Jenna was mad at you, and you kissed her, she'd kick your a*s. i mean, for heaven sakes, she LAUGHED at the Phantom of the Opera (last part when Raoul was chained to the gate/bar thing)... whereas i was sobbing. It was very confusing for the person who sat in front of us both in the movie theater.

You might want to add 'play a song for her most likely on the guitar' on your list..... i practically fall in love when guys play me a song...

yeah Nferyn is intelligent. his vocab is HUGE though, every time i respond to him now, i automatically open dictionary.com also... so i don't say something totally stupid JUST because i didn't know what a word meant.

OK, my biggest crush was on this guy named Thomas Vandiver. And he totally broke my heart by calling me a stalker... it sucked... for school, we had to write memoirs later that year, and i totally wrote about my experience of being crushed by a crush. The sucky part is my best friend, Ali, like him too for like 4 more years than I had, and like a week after Thomas broke my heart, He broke Ali's Heart too! HA! It's hilarious, isn't it? I was such a fool. SHAME ON ME! LMAO!

I surely don't know who the top 5 i want to meet are, there are two many. But i know if i had to choose just one i'd love to meet nferyn. Why? you may ask, well, i will answer you. Anyone who has has veiwed or replyed on any almost any topic that nferyn has, knows that he is an aitheist, right? Well, i am a 15 year old Christian girl. And talking to nferyn, has made me stronger in my belief. He has reminded me how much i depend on God, and that God DOES exist, and that God is always there for me, and will always be there for me. Ironic. no?

oh and that would be greatly appreciated if you could put your first name in your first comment (if you have more than one), because i might quote you in a power point presentation. If you object to, or are not comfortable with being quoted, tell me and i will not quote you. thanks agian

Thank you.

My first question, is about something i read in "Things Fall Apart". In it, the author mentions that they 'throw twins away', so they kill twins by leaving them out in like bushes or something. My question, is why do/did they do this? What is so bad about twins?

My second question is, (remember i have NO idea what Nigerian culture is like) do you all Still live in villages. In clans? And if you do, do you guys live in houses? Or do you live in obi's? Are men still permitted/encouraged to have more than one wife?

What is the main religions in Nigeria right now? How important are these religions to you?

Another thing that i read in "Things Fall Apart" was about the lords of the village titles. that there are four different title that you can achieve. So, how do you get these? Does someone higher up decide? Does the previous holder of the title choose in case of their death? Are women allowed to hold these titles? Is there a vote of who deserves to have it? Do people still even HAVE the titles?

How are women revered in culture? Are there some clans that allow them to have power? Are they still treated more as objects?

Do you still have Evil Forests? like Umfioma (sp?) in "Things Fall Apart" does?

Do you still have trials, held by the 'gods/spirits' of the forest?

To those of you whom have visited Nigeria. What is it like from an tourists viewpoint? What is the most rememberable thing about Nigeria?

i think that's enough questions for now... oh and if anyone knows of sites that tell statistics about Nigeria, I'd love it if you could tell me them.

OK, so because of reading a different thread, i was reminded of something that I've been thinking about recently. I notice, that we, as people, put different values on sin. Like, for instance, coveting is better than lying, which is better than hating, which is better than lusting, which is better than committing adultery (even though they are the same sin) which is better than stealing, which is better than committing murder... etc...

People get put in jail, and even are given the death penalty when they murder someone... but you don't even always get in trouble when you lie.

The bible tells us that all sins are equal, that coveting and lying are just as horrible as stealing and committing murder. or if you look at it the other way, committing murder and stealing are just as OK, as coveting and lying.

But in culture, whether it be the worlds, or your specific contries, we put values on the sins. get in more trouble when we do one thing opposed to the other.

So where does this leave us?

We can't use Gods laws as human laws because then everyone would be in jail.

but we can't have murderers and rapists on the loose.

and if you ever go into politics, you have to put your own personal value on each sin, to know where you stand, so you can make decisions.

For instance, (i live in America), in America right now, we are having this whole issue on whether homo-sexuals should be allowed to marry. God says we should treat everyone equally. God also says that marriage is for a man and woman. It is a sin to be homo-sexual, but it's also a sin to lie. We don't permit those who lie from certain privileges. So what right do we have to permit homo-sexuals from a privilege such as marriage?

So, how do we decided, what sin is best. what our values should be, where we stand on political issues?

Questions For Those Who Live In Or Have Visited Nigeria

Hi y'all.

So in my English class, i have been reading the book "Things Fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe, and now i get to research about any particular aspect of Nigerian Culture. This is actually how i came across this website. So i was wondering if anyone would be willing to answer some questions i have about it, because well I know nothing about Nigerian Culture.

The aspect i chose to research was about religion in Nigeria, but I have questions that aren't necessarily about the religions in Nigeria because as I said before, I know nothing about Nigerian Culture. If someone, or multiple people are willing to answer questions i have, just say so, and i will start asking questions. Thanks a bunch!

Karine:
God sees all the things that will happen from the choices we make He sees many paths not the percise one that will happen

Just because he see's all the possible paths, doesn't mean that he doesn't see the precise one we will take. He is omniscience, that means he knows EVERYTHING, so he would know the precise path that we will take, along with the all the others.

panthress:
God created us on da 6th day, noah took everyyyyyyyy animal, male n female species inside the ark.
Evolution is not a possibility it is not a fact, we never evolved

yeah, i know... i just didn't feel like making more conflict... guess it didn't work. LMAO!

nferyn:
Let me quote biologist Lewontin:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

in Chrisitianity, it is often debated what a 'day' to God is. God created Earth and all living creatures in 7 days. But what if each of those 'days' was millions of years long? Considering this option, it would all still make sense. No, there were no birds or mamals 150 milion years ago, because that was before the day God created them. As to why forms of the past are no longer living, there could be millons of reasons. God didn't ask Dinasours to go with Noah, when there was the flood. Maybe God distroyed them, and Didn't think it was important enough to put in the bible. Maybe they couldn't adapt to something new in their enviornment, and so they died. There are millions of possible reasons. It doesn't mean that evolution is a fact. Just a possibility.

nferyn:
No, it doesn't make sense. You are limited to human concepts because you are human. You cannot possibly get a glimpse of these divine concepts, they are beyond your understanding. The argument from analogy (divine omnipotence is like human omnipotence, only different in kind) doesn't make sense as there is no way to relate the two.

once again we have a possibility that God actually IS giving me an understanding of something divine and i cannot explain it in human terms. because your above quote makes complete sense when you look at it only from a human standpoint of veiw. And yet i seem to understand how it could be.

nferyn:
If you do not know fear, you cannot be fearful and you don't need any consolation. Why would God put forth such impossible standards to start with?

God is omnibevenolent, he is perfect, when he created us, we too were perfect. Had we not sinned Jesus wouldn't have had to die for us so we could go to heaven... we would have been able to get there on our own.

God created us perfect. That means he created us with his standard of perfection already in our grasp. so his standards are not too high. We have already met his standards before. They can't be too high if we have achieved them before!

nferyn:
Can't you turn to your family if you feel lousy? It's a bit harsh on yourself if you have to deal with these feelings all alone.

I can't turn to my family... they are the main reason i don't feel loved. the reason seems stupid, even to me, but its because all my parents care about seems to be keeping their house clean. They harp on me every single time we are alone. I hate spending time with them if that's all they do... critiize me for not 'cleaning my room'! It seems as if their love is CONDITIONAL, rather than unconditional. and who want's conditional love? I don't. and yet, i need there love so much. But my pride stops me from confronting them. And also i can't truely talk to my friends, because i don't think they will accept me for who i am. There is one who i've told everything to, but we go to different schools, and she's rarely available so I'm left alone to deal with my feelings, except of course for God. Actually talking to you on all these matters has helped me alot, because it has remineded me just how much i depend on God. I only wish he could give me a hug! = )

nferyn:
You don't know Yurup? My oh my ... you don't know that tiny continent with countries such as France, Spain, the UK and of course the lovely Belgium? You Americans truly must be living on another planet
Within Europe, Airport security has always been as tight as it is in the US nowadays, we've had terrorists long before they took up the idea of attacking the US.

Sorry, i know Europe, i didn't recognize how you spelled, it... Yurup... i thougt it was a currency or something.

nferyn:
I'm glad you understood my point. I didn't really see how you could not understand what I was saying before, but I probably made some incorrect assumptions about your prior knowledge. I'm quite surprised to see such a maturity in a 15 year old girl. My compliments.

Thank you, i actually am not usually this mature, i am usually very out there and crazy. But i take life seriously, much more than my friends do, i think. Because i think a lot... like sometimes we ask eachother silly questions like, "If you were to die tomorrow and you could do absolutely anything what would you do?" So of course this make Me think... what would i do, i would tell people who i really am, apologize for all the times i've let pride get in the way, write letters to everyone I know, encouraging them in life etc.... but they are looking for answers like, 'i'd melt all the gold in the world put it in the ocean and make the lost city of Atlantas." which makes me realize that i take life so much more seriously then they do. Or at least i think about it more, i don't think any of my friend would be any where near as invigorated as i get from reading sites like these. i love these kinds of sites.

nferyn:
Now, concerning the properties of God. If they are different from our conception, we have no real frame of reference to compare them to and they thus become meaningless. You could try to reason from analogy, but even there your understanding would utterly fail, as you still need a human concept to refer to. basically God is unknowable for us humans.

I think that because i am ignorant about many things, i can understand divine concepts better. If that makes any sence? Like, when you reasearch in human concepts, it becomes the only way you think. But because i have not enveloped myself in human concepts, i do not limit my thinking to only human concepts, so i can get vauge glimpses of divine concepts. Does this make any sense?

This would give a reason to why some people think that ignorance is a virtue. maybe this is the reason that God didn't want us to eat from the tree of knowledge, because we would be limiting out knowledge.

I don't know, all i do know is that we did eat from the tree of knowledge, so now, i want to learn as much as possible.

nferyn:
It's very well possible that it was something different, but then again, your prior conceptual framework determines how you perceive the world and what you attribute events and feelings to.
The sociologist William Thomas once wrote If men define situations as real they are real in their consequences. This is very true for experiental and emotional situations. It's a logical consequence of humans trying to attribute events to a concrete cause, even if that cause cannot possibly be known by them.

ok... This makes sence, your point of veiw on the matter. but i just have a feeling that it's another one of those by 'our concepts' things.... because although how you explain it makes sence, i feel i understand it at least a little bit, God's way. But, right this second, i can't even begin to explain it in human terms.

nferyn:
This is the main problem I have with putting children through a strong religious Christian training at a young age: an unnecessary feeling of fear is put in their minds. In many cases a feeling of guilt is added to that. People cannot possibly live up to the impossible targets religions put up for them. Then they feel guilty for not succeeding. If anyone, as an adult, wants to go through that, I have no problem with it, but for children, this verges on child abuse.
I know I use harsh words here, but young children should not have to deal with these kinds of feelings.

i do agree, but they are also taught God loves them even though they can never live up to the standards, and that God is mercyful and God is always there, whereas children who arent raised in this envoirnment, don't grow up knowing that there will always be someone who loves them no matter how many times they mess up.

nferyn:
Think about how your frame of reference works in the way you attribute feelings to these events. If you wouldn't have had the strenght, you probably would have thought you didn't pray enough. Either way, you would have attributed the outcome to God (or you failing to live up to his standards).

please understand that when i personally am not feeling good... close to God, i pull myself away from my life, and envelope myself in books, stories, fictional writing, i pour my soul into them, so i forget about my life, forget who i am in a sense. That day, that one day, i felt so so completely unloved, that i turned to the only truth i knew. The truth above all truth. Do you know what it's like to believe in something with such your whole heart? This is my frame of refrence, so when i veiw life, i veiw it from this frame of refernce. i can never pray enough, i can never live up to God's standards, i just rely so completely on God, that i can't live without God. So of course i would attribute the out come to God. He is my only frame of referense, my sole frame of referense.

nferyn:
That's perfectly normal. During your teen years, your hormones cause a serious imbalance in the normal functioning of your neurotransmitters (which regulate your feelings). You unfortunately just have to sit through it.

D*mn hormones!

nferyn:
This is another case of attribution. Don't worry, you seem to have an inquisitive mind. Keep asking questions and challenging yourself. You'll grow stronger out of the experience.

i wouldn't have it anyother way.

nferyn:
Somehow, but it doesn't really matter. Continue to learn, ask questions and try to deepen your knowledge and understanding. You can deepen your faith, you could lose it, but you will come out a better person. Learn about other religions and philosophies and ask yourself what the nature of understanding is. A shallow mind looks for shallow answers and I have felt with you that this is not the case. Expand your mental horizon.

That would suck if i lost my faith. I mean, as a teenager i don't know who i am... but if i didn't have God.... Holy crap... I'd probably kill myself.... it's a good thing that God is my only truth, so i know i wont loose my faith!

I don't know where to start looking and reaserching aobut other religions and philosophies. Do you know of a place to start? because i do need, to find myself, to learn about them. I don't know why that would help me understand who i am.... well i guess it will let me understand just how lucky i am, maybe other things too... i don't know i just know that i need to learn more.

nferyn:
This looks like a classical Protestant view on Catholics. It is true that the Catholic Church sometimes overemphasises form over substance, but don't let that limit you. The protestant interpretation of the message of Jesus is sometimes a harsh, orthodox, literalistic and shallow interpretation. If you look for a deeper meaning, you could study the early Christian churches and what they believe, especially the gnostic churches and gospels (e.g. the gospel according to Thomas).
It is also interesting to understand the way the Muslims and Jews study their religion. Expand your horizon.

Most of the time the bible is spoken in parables... Sometimes though, it is spoken as clearly as possible in a way that would be understood throughout the years of the world.

I will try to expand my horizon... but i don't know how, exactly. Where do you start.... how do you know what websites are good, what books are good.

nferyn:
Please don't thread the route of a literalistic interpretation of the Bible. They are parables and allegories to teach a deeper meaning of the divine. If you have a Jewish community nearby, go and ask them how they study the Torah (the Christian Old Testament), you will understand what I mean.
Continue studying and please, don't close your mind for competing explanations of life, they can only deepen your understanding.

k. I have a Friend who is jewish, i'll ask her.

I will continue studying. as for closing my ming.... HA! Closing your mind can never that cannot be a good thing.

nferyn:
I'm in good old Yurup and guns are not easy to obtain here. You'll never pass airport securit anyway ;

whats a Yurup? i could probably buy a gun here... but passing airport security HERE in the USA, after the terrrorist attack.... ha like i could get into the airport with out beeing arrested...

babagana:
A little bit but know that jesus died on th cross those that mean it is a ticket to be ungodly and continue to sin?
Again, let me ask you are all sinners evil?
Does being Godly only mean being sinless?

Sin IS evil.

i just looked on dictionary.com looking up godly, and it said that godly is divine, and divine is godlike. God is sinless so, being god like, would mean being sinless.

So, after reading your reply to my most previous post i realized something.

So, when i think, sometimes God talks to me in my thoughts, gives me wisdom, because i ask him to give me wisdom, and whenever he is asked for wisdom he gives it.

So, when i was thinking about this, before i entered this debate, God gave me a slight glimpse into how it is possible. And i have been trying to explain what it is that God gave me a glimpse of.

But, several times in your reply, you said that the omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenovelnce of God could be different from our concept of them.

And i realized, you are so completely right. It's not in our concept of omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenovelnce that i have an understanding of how predestination and free-will co-exist.

Infact, i agree with you that in our understanding of them, it's not possible for predestination and free-will to co-exist.

And, i cannot explain it, in our concept of them, because our concept of them is what makes us question it in the first place.

nferyn:
This is a subjective feeling you attribute to God because you interpret that feeling within a theistic framework. Nobody is capable of objectifying that feeling and make it communicable to anybody outside that framework, because the framework is different, the concepts used are different and there is no mapping between these frameworks. You call it God, I call it a mass delusion.

Unless it's possible, that we are feeling something different. How do you know  what you feel is what i feel? We can never know, maybe you haven't experienced God before. i know i have.

nferyn:
This is not true. Wind is a phenomenon that can be tested and operationalised very easily.

i did not know this. I'm sorry.

nferyn:
This is self-referential. I will feel the same thing but interpret it differently and label it differently.
As I did not grow up in a theistic environment, I find it extremely hard to understand why people believe in God. A majority of the human population does. Many are outright ignorant, but many are intelligent human beings. I want to understand where that comes from. Intellectually, it's so far of the scale that there must be another reason. I will probably not find it, but I keep looking.

I did grow up in a theistic environment. And as to why i, in particular, believe in God. Well, i do have to admit that my theistic environment made my belief in God grow more rapidly than if i hadn't grown up in one. And as a child (in 1st/2nd grade) my sunday school teacher explained that Christians would go to heaven to live with god and people who aren't Christians wouldn't. and so, i think that when i originally received Jesus in my heart, it was because i was afraid that if i died i would go to Hell. That is why i originally believed in Christ. but then, i actually started to feel God working in my life. and i learned more about him, and it made sense to believe, because God was so real. Now, i am actually turning 15 years old in 22 days, and am in my freshman year of highschool. I am right now, probably at the lowest point in my belief that i have been in a long time, if not ever. This is because i am going through changes in my life, and problems occur and yet through all this, i always seem to have faith in God. One day last year, i was depressed beyond imagination, i couldn't even try to get through the day by myself. I prayed non-stop to God, to ask for strength to get through the next breath, the next step etc... God gave strength to me. It did not come from within. it came from God, i have no doubt about this. And the next day, i didn't even go to school because i was so depressed, and i got an email from a brother who was in his freshman year in colledge. The reason i had been depressed was because i felt like no one loved me at all. even though in my head i knew they did, i didn't feel their love. My brothers email told me that during his vespers the night before  (vespers is a type of biblestudy) he felt the need to write me, and in the email, he told me that he loved me. That was God. God worked through my brother to lift me out of my depression, and i made it through at least the end of the year because of that. You ask why people believe in God. and i realize I'm probably not one of the 'intellegint' people you talked about, but rather the ignorant, because i have grown up sheltered and still am very sheltered, i try to learn about everything so i become less ignorant. but the reason i believe in God, is because without him, i am hopeless, useless. My entire life is based on him, because what he has done for me. Does this make any sense to you at all?

nferyn:
My parents did grow up as good Roman Catholics, but they have been dealt such nasty blows by that church that they left. My father is extremely anti-catholic and feels nauseous every time he's close to a man of the cloth. I do not have that negative feeling towards religious people, I just don't understand them.

No offense to any Catholics reading this, but i do not agree with most of the teaching in the catholic religion. You must remember that Catholic is not the same as Christian, yes the Roman Catholic Church is the 'Christian' Church... but, you can be catholic, and not be Christian, just as you can be Christian, and not be catholic. (there ARE people who are both, but being catholic has Nothing to do with being Christian). My mom grew up her entire life going to a Catholic Church, she became Christian when she was in her twenties. (this is just a comment, it has no real point or purpose)

nferyn:
I wouldn't know, but he's definitely against the anti-intellectual position some Christians on this board take. That's also a reason why, in general, I like it more to debate with Muslims than with Christians, they never consider ignorance a virtue.

ignorance a virtue... well i know it would have been better if Eve had not brought back the fruit to eat because it was a sin, but i don't understand why God wouldn't want us to be intellectual. That's another question for my list. (by list i mean list of questions I'm asking God when i get to heaven, if i remember them, that is..) So, personally i don't think that ignorance is a virtue, i know we all have ignorance. but.... i don't know, that could be a thread itself.

This is the only sensible theistic position I can think of, agnostic theism: you cannot possibly have knowledge about the nature of God, but you can believe in him. All attempts to understand the nature of God are futile. This would probably be my position if I grew up in a theistic environment, but I didn't.

nferyn:
OK. Your point being?

it wasn't that important... i was turning in more circles...

nferyn:
Maybe later. This debate is already taking up too much of my time.

would i be horrible if i said that i think this debate is coming to a close? Because, like i said above, thanks to you, i realize that all i have been doing is trying to explain something outside of human perceptions... and I've explained it the best i possibly can. all i can do now is turn in more circles and repeat explaining over and over, hoping that it makes sense...

nferyn:
Better ask my lovely Nigerian forumites. I haven't read the book yet (don't shoot, I will )

well, i don't own a gun so you don't have to worry..... if i did though, you might have to watch out.... LMAO! (Laugh my a*s off)

No, not at all prettyH

i mean think about it. Nferyn is on here every day, replying to us.

Can you imagine how many people are praying for him on here? I know i am.

Many, if not most, atheist would probably take on look at these conversations, bolt out, and never come back.

But Nferyn is on here every day. It's almost like he... wants to be proven wrong? i don't know if that's true or not. But I know, someday on here, God, being God, will find him. It may be days, weeks, months, years... But God wants nferyn to be apart of his family.

let's not forget that if everyone who had ever existed, except nferyn, had never sinned, God still would have had Jesus come down to die for him, whether or not nferyn received him. God loves him so much...

i mean it's GOD we are talking about.

so, no i do not think that it is too much off a task.

@ prettyH, thanks, i think i will.

babagana:
I am affraid I don't seem to agree with you. Have you heard of anything called repentance, Born again and so on?

I'm sorry, please let me clarify on what i was trying to say, because i do believe in repentance, i have been born again myself.

Once we have sinned, we are evil. If we recieve Jesus Christ into our hearts, we can be born again, or clean infront of God's eyes. However, being human, we will sin again. so, we still cannot be technically 'godly' because 'godly' means 'like god' and God is perfect. and so, because we continue to sin, although we try to be perfect. why god allows us to still go to heaven, is because when Jesus died on the cross. he didn't die for one sin from each person that had/did/will ever exist, but rather all the sins that each person that had/did/will ever exist commited.

Does that clarify what i was trying to say before?

OK. i am going to reply to your last post on this thread, with two. This one, and the next one, which will take a while.... but in this one, i simply have a..... favor.

Could you just simply stop, just stop for the moment. Stop trying to disprove God exists. Say... It's possible that you could be wrong, and Stop! After that... could you pray to God? as i said in another thread, you have not closed your heart completely as many if not most atheists would have, but i want you just for a moment, to attempt to believe. Attempt to hear God with an open heart and an open mind?

this to you may sound like a preposterous idea. but well. I admit it. there is not solid evidence that i can get my hands on, and show you that will prove God exists. but by not doing this, and i mean doing it with a truly open heart and mind. not one that says, "this is stupid i can't believe I'm actually going through with this." but rather one that takes a chance, a risk and allows itself to be wrong. if you cannot do this,  you must understand that you are refusing to be shown evidence the only way i know how, at this moment, to show you.

and if you decide to refuse this. Please tell me why.

nferyn:
He knows beforehand what you are going to do. This means that before you even do it, before you make any decision, you can only do what he knows you will do. You have no choice, you only have the illusion of having a choice.

How is THAT and illusion? I am not grasping your argument on this, and i don't know why.

Because i agree with you completely, as  you said it, you "only do what he knows you will do." But even you are not saying that you do what he chooses for you to do. 

He only knows what you will do. and that does not create an illusion of freewill. it simply says that you choose what you do, God just understands your soul, who you are, so completely that he knows what it is you will end up choosing.

nferyn:
Exactly, the creation of free will does not make sense for an omniscient, all-seeing God. It is in contradiction with his property of omniscience.

When you were born, as a child. You did not understand anything around you. As you grow older, you learn things, but still, there is so so much you don't understand, when you are an adult. you know many things, and yet there's alot you still don't understand. When you die. there are so many things you never got the chance to learn or understand. All our lives, we learn and learn and learn and learn. People discover new things every day that have never been discovered before. Knowledge seems to be unlimited so we will never be able to know it all.

and yet simply because we don't understand why someone who is omniscient does something, you say it is impossible. that it's contradictory. But he knows everything. Do you not understand that? He. Knows. Everything. and we do not. So why is that impossible? Why is that contradictory?

nferyn:
I have no intention whatsoever to change what people believe. If only they can reason thoroughly about the foundations of their belief, I would call it a success.

Why do we believe in wind? We can't prove it exists, except that we can feel it, and it moves things. Other than that, we can't prove it exists, we just have to put faith in the fact that we can feel it.

Why do i believe in God? I cannot prove God exists, except that i can feel God, inside my heart, and God i can see God changing people. i just have to put faith in the fact that i feel God everyday in my life. and i have to put faith in the fact that i can see God change people.

If someone never left their house, and didn't have a TV. but someone called them on their phone and was telling them about the wind. They might not believe it existed.  They might say, no matter how many people can testify that it exists, unless you can give me solid proof, i won't believe in it. Until they feel wind for themself, or see the proof, they will not believe in it. But we have no proof for wind, except that we can feel it, and see it move things.

Someone who has never felt or seen how God works in someone probably won't believe in God. Unless they see proof, or feel God themselves.

I actually must tell you, that it is truly obvious to me, that God wants you, right now. I mean, you are on here every single day, debating the existence of him, who he is, the affects of him etc... You have already taken the first step into discovering who he is. Although you are not convinced of who God is, who Jesus is, let alone God's existence, you are at least have not closed your heart completely to the possibility of him. There are so many people who would have seen one of these discussions, left the website and never come back. I almost think that you might.... want to be proved wrong? i don't know about that, but i can say that just by listening to and reading all this, you have allowed God in your life, it is truly now your choice on whether you listen to it.

nferyn:
What I dislike is the theism by default, where people ascribe al kinds of evil moral characteristics to atheists. This is uncalled for.

You are absolutely correct, it is uncalled for because it is nonsense. We all are evil, and evil moral characteristics come from Christians just as much, and probably as often as any one else... to say that they Started from? that their origins are from atheists? Well... that makes no sense in the least.

nferyn:
He knows beforehand what you are going to do. This means that before you even do it, before you make any decision, you can only do what he knows you will do. You have no choice, you only have the illusion of having a choice.

How is THAT and illusion? I am not grasping your argument on this, and i don't know why.

Because i agree with you completely, as  you said it, you "only do what he knows you will do." But even you are not saying that you do what he chooses for you to do. 

He only knows what you will do. and that does not create an illusion of freewill. it simply says that you choose what you do, God just understands your soul, who you are, so completely that he knows what it is you will end up choosing.

nferyn:
Exactly, the creation of free will does not make sense for an omniscient, all-seeing God. It is in contradiction with his property of omniscience.

When you were born, as a child. You did not understand anything around you. As you grow older, you learn things, but still, there is so so much you don't understand, when you are an adult. you know many things, and yet there's alot you still don't understand. When you die. there are so many things you never got the chance to learn or understand. All our lives, we learn and learn and learn and learn. People discover new things every day that have never been discovered before. Knowledge seems to be unlimited so we will never be able to know it all.

and yet simply because we don't understand why someone who is omniscient does something, you say it is impossible. that it's contradictory. But he knows everything. Do you not understand that? He. Knows. Everything. and we do not. So why is that impossible? Why is that contradictory?

nferyn:
I have no intention whatsoever to change what people believe. If only they can reason thoroughly about the foundations of their belief, I would call it a success.

Why do we believe in wind? We can't prove it exists, except that we can feel it, and it moves things. Other than that, we can't prove it exists, we just have to put faith in the fact that we can feel it.

Why do i believe in God? I cannot prove God exists, except that i can feel God, inside my heart, and God i can see God changing people. i just have to put faith in the fact that i feel God everyday in my life. and i have to put faith in the fact that i can see God change people.

If someone never left their house, and didn't have a TV. but someone called them on their phone and was telling them about the wind. They might not believe it existed.  They might say, no matter how many people can testify that it exists, unless you can give me solid proof, i won't believe in it. Until they feel wind for themself, or see the proof, they will not believe in it. But we have no proof for wind, except that we can feel it, and see it move things.

Someone who has never felt or seen how God works in someone probably won't believe in God. Unless they see proof, or feel God themselves.

I actually must tell you, that it is truly obvious to me, that God wants you, right now. I mean, you are on here every single day, debating the existence of him, who he is, the affects of him etc... You have already taken the first step into discovering who he is. Although you are not convinced of who God is, who Jesus is, let alone God's existence, you are at least have not closed your heart completely to the possibility of him. There are so many people who would have seen one of these discussions, left the website and never come back. I almost think that you might.... want to be proved wrong? i don't know about that, but i can say that just by listening to and reading all this, you have allowed God in your life, it is truly now your choice on whether you listen to it.

nferyn:
What I dislike is the theism by default, where people ascribe al kinds of evil moral characteristics to atheists. This is uncalled for.

I completely concur with you on this. It is nonsense to think that evil moral characteristics started from, or origin from atheists, because it origin from all of us, Christians included. Unless you are using the definition of assigning as a quality or characteristic when you said the word ascribe... because in that case it's true, but it's not only a quality of atheists, Evil is a quality of all humans from the first time we sin. But in either use of the word 'ascribe', i still agree with you that it is very uncalled for to ascribe all kinds of evil moral characteristics to atheists.

nferyn:
It's already difficult enough for Nigerians to deviate from the norm, they don't need to be treated as social outcasts for a perfectly reasonable position. If I can - in my small way - help accomplish that, I'm happy.

I actually must confess that i, myself, am not Nigerian, nor do i live in Nigeria. i was researching about Nigerian culture for my English Final when i found this website. (We are reading the book, "Things Fall Apart" ) So, i was not aware that it is difficult for Nigerians to deviate from the norm. And i agree that it is senseless to be treated as social outcasts for a position on any subject, because... ha! It's Senseless because we Have. Free Will!!!!!!! to choose to have any position on any subject we want!

nferyn:
I think you can have interesting discussions with your fellow Christian chrisd.

By interesting, do you mean that he and i disagree on things? Because, i am not saying that i am 100% right on this, this is just what i believe and why i believe it. infact i am probably wrong on many things, just as we all are.

Do you know of any threads that Chrisd is a prominent debater on? I love interesting discussions (exspecally on this website).... they are so exhilarating!

nferyn:
It [b]is [/b]a retreat into ignorance. You say beforehand that you cannot fully understand the nature of God.

So i didn't agree with you on this, so i looked up the word ignorance on-line... sometimes when i have the definition of words right next to me, i understand things much better. and i guess you are right. i technically do retreat into ignorance. because my conclusion is that i am not educated enough to understand the nature of God.

but this is true. I can't understand the nature of God. I haven't even come close to learning all the possible things you could learn Inside! the realm of human knowledge... let alone in the realm of God's Knowledge. and neither can anyone who is only human either.

this was originally referring to the comment you had made on when i preparing to say why God would create people who he could predict with 100% accuracy, would go to hell. and so yes, i am retreating into ignorance when i say that i can't understand the nature of God, that you can't understand it, that no one can understand it. But i only retreat into that ignorance, because I, along with everyother human being, am ignorant. I am only stating the truth.

nferyn:
If God is omnibenevolent, he would not allow any of his creatures to go through torment and pain. He would do everything he can to avoid that. If he is omnipotent, he can prevent suffering and pain. Fact is, people suffer. Either God is not omnibenevolent or he is not omnipotent.

I'm sorry, but i see absolutely no facts in that except for that people suffer. The rest is purely opinion. It is your opinion that God being omnibenevolent would not allow his creatures to go through torment and pain. That is not a fact. Nor is that if God is omnipotent, he would prevent suffering and pain. They are both very eloquently said opinions, to the point that at first glance, you do not recognize that it actually is an opinion.

Yes, it is my, 'opinion' that God can be both omnibenevolent and omnipotent, and allow people to suffer. i do not have facts.

this is because we are both ignorant. We both do not understand enough, we both do not know everything. We only know that God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and also omniscience! God says that he gives free will, being omnibenevolent, it must be true. So the fact that he is omniscience doesn't change that.

nferyn:
This is a difficult discussion that can take a thread of it's own. If you like, you can create a thread on that. I will expand the argument, but it will take quite some time to do so. Just let me know.

I actually would like to create a thread on that... however i have never created a thread before... what would i call it? Like "Does Creating humans limit God's future possibilities" ? is that a good title or is there a better phrased question that you can think of?


Also, i would like to ask you a question.... that's off topic. As i mentioned before, I'm researching Nigerian culture because my English class is reading the book "Things Fall Apart" written by Chinua Achebe. In it they mention that when twins are born they murder them. Do you know why? Also, in the book, they talk about the titles of each clan. Do you know, by any chance, how they Acquire the titles? If you by any chance know the answer to these questions, i would greatly appreciate it. =)

=)

=)

=)

babagana:
@abbeyMarie_ which brings us to the same Q, what does it take to be Godly?

We can't be godly. because we have sinned. After you have sinned... well from then on you are basically evil.

However we can always try to be the best person we can.

nferyn:
That's a nice way to avoid the issue. Free will is an illusion in this context. The future is predetermined as all future acts are known by God beforehand. There is no way to avoid your faith.

How is free will an illusion in this context? in this context God knows/understands what we will do. but he doesn't command us to do this. he allows us to do it.

When you say "There is no way to avoid your faith." what are you saying? Sorry, but i really don't understand.

nferyn:
It would get us nowhere because you would never question the properties of God. You'd retreat into ignorance by saying that we cannot fully understand the nature of God.

Yes, actually many people do question the properties of God. An acquaintance questioning exactly why God creates people who he knows will go to Hell, is what got me started thinking about how free will and predestination can co-exist. Why shouldn't we question the properties of God? That would be like not trying to fully understand your personal beliefs. and that would be ignorant, because not understanding what you believe. makes no sense. That's actually one reason why this site invigorates me so much. i love it, because it allows me to question my own beliefs, to strengthen them, and learn more about others beliefs.

I do not retreat into ignorance by saying we cannot fully understand the nature of God. I simply come to the conclusion that our knowledge  cannot compare to an all-knowing God's!

nferyn:
No it doesn't. You change the meaning of just, merciful, loving and right to make it fit your preconceived ideas about God.
If God is all seeing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent) and all good (omnibenevolent), then:
1. Free will cannot exist because omniscience implies predestination
2. Evil in the world would be impossible because an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God by definition would not allow such a thing
3. the world would not exist because an omnipotent God would limit his possibilities by creating something outside of himself

1. How does omniscience imply predestination? Doesn't it imply that he knows everything, understands everything? Which doesn't mean that he forces us to do anything. It simply means that he knows everything! If that is all it means, i can't see why he wouldn't allow people to choose what they want to do.
2. Why wouldn't he allow sin on Earth? He doesn't allow it in Heaven and that is why after we all sin, we need to receive Jesus Christ so, we can be perfect before God, so we can go to Heaven. But on earth... Earth is not Heaven, so why is there a reason he wouldn't allow sin on Earth? He allows sin in Hell.
3. How do you know that would limit his possibilities? From your knowledge and your perception, maybe it would. but, if he is all-knowing, maybe he knows that it wouldn't limit his possibilities. maybe it would create more. If it did limit his possibilities... he might not want those possibilities.

Oh, and nferyn, i would just like to say, that i am so glad you participate in the discusions, you always bring such... intensity to them! It is so fun talking with you, (and everyone here too).

I love hearing everyone's ideas and opinions. How they differentiate so much. I am so thankful, that we can express our opinions freely and openly without fear of being... harassed or even murdered like people can be.