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PoliticsRe: Reuters Mocks INEC's Incompetence Over Postponed National Assembly Elections by agabaI23(m): 7:41pm On Apr 02, 2011
In as much as this is a shame, I think it is better to postpone than to allow the election carry on into the night which would have allowed massive rigging.
Forum GamesRe: *.*.*.Which Celebrity Does The Nairalander Above You Represent?*.*.*. by agabaI23(m): 6:58pm On Apr 02, 2011
Chika Ike
PoliticsRe: The Curious Incident Of Mohammed Abacha: The Limits Of Mythomania. by agabaI23(m): 6:32pm On Apr 02, 2011
I am so disappointed that people will see valid arguments and will turn a n blind eye to it choosing to twist the points raised

@OP Such a nice job. Learnt new things. I never knew he jailed his campaign manager for corruption in 1985 but I have never taken his saintly stance serious.
All the BB guys were slating the PDP for associating with Bode George but saint Buhari has an ex-convict as his campaign manager. Someone he jailed for corruption. Haba Buhari!
I have been harping on  the same issue. Why did they allow Abacha to contest if they will not allow him to win?

25 billion stolen under him the same way people stole under OBJ and yet his boys cannot see anything wrong in that while they choose to slate OBJ.
If he could not stop such a monumental corruption in small position, how can he stop it in Nigeria? Approximately 14% was stolen.
I think we need to be objective in the face of passion. Lack of objectivity is not gonna help anyone.

The bottom line is that all of the aspirants are corrupt and associate with corrupt people, therefore we need someone with vision. Buhari has not got it.
Vote GEJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PoliticsRe: Help bring Digital Libraries to Africa! by agabaI23(m): 10:58am On Apr 02, 2011
Now I have just watched the Harvard video.
I am glad you are a Nigerian LOMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
PoliticsRe: Report Here On National Assembly Elections: 2nd April, 2011 by agabaI23(m): 10:19am On Apr 02, 2011
Another one
Source NEXT
8:54 Keffi, Nassarawa State: Ebiti Ndok, the only female presidential candidate, is in detention in Keffi following a court order. She is accused of presenting a dud cheque and is to remain in detention until after presidential polls.

9:06am Amuwo Odofin, Lagos: Generally, the mood in Amuwo is peaceful. Nothing unusual. Some women seen frying Akaras, a group of youth gather at a viewing centre to watch TV, two men clear the grasses in front of their house. At the polling unit in Monkey Village, Maza Maza, an elderly couple who turned up early complain about INEC's unseriousness. "My plan was to come early, get accredited, then come back later to vote. I cannot stay here till afternoon just because I want to vote," said the elderly man.

9:07am, Ikorodu: People are waiting at PU24/12/05/039, no sign of INEC officials.

9:14am Obio/Akpor LGA, Rivers: INEC officials yet to arrive at PU 32/15/17/007.

9: 15am Kastina State: As early as 8am Kastina INEC headquarters scanty. No electoral staff seen yet. A score of security officials and a few residents are outside the premises checking list of voters posted on the wall.

9:15am, Isheri/Ojodu, Ogun State: Polling material and INEC staff yet to arrive at Isheri/Ojodu Ward 5 Ifo local. Party agents and corps member who spent the night at a police station for safety are awaiting the arrival of INEC officials.

9:19am Kubwa, Abuja FCT: Still no sign of INEC official in any polling booth as officers of police, civil defence and FRSC all waiting endlessly.


9:21 am LadyLak, Bariga, Lagos: Accreditation process about to start.

9:21 am, Cameron Road, Ikoyi: No INEC offical, voters are earnestly waiting.

9:30 am Obawole ,Ifako-Ijaiye, Lagos : No INEC official at PU:24/10/06/010. Police and voters are waiting on the field.

9:38 am, Oyo State: Senatorial election fro Oyo central not holding today due to shortage of materials.9:40am: Akute, Ogun State: Accreditation yet to commence at Akute, Ajuwon, Olambe and Oke Aro in Ifo local council in Ogun State.The three weekends of voting begin today, Saturday April 2, 2011, with the election of National Assembly members, meaning all 90 senators and 360 members of the House of Representatives are to be elected on this day. Over 50 parties are fielding candidates for these posts. Millions of citizens from all across the country troop out to cast their votes. Here is the minute-by-minute news on the National Assembly elections.

9:44 amAsokoro, Abuja FCT: No INEC officials at any polling booth visited.

9:54am Oyo state: After compelling the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) to release the list of adhoc staff at past 9pm Friday evening, many corps members in Oyo State said their names were missing on the list.

10:00am, Plateau State: Electoral chaos as Resident Electoral Commissioner reveals ballot paper shortfall of over 2million. National Assembly election unlikely to hold in state today
PoliticsRe: Report Here On National Assembly Elections: 2nd April, 2011 by agabaI23(m): 10:18am On Apr 02, 2011
From other parts of the country-NEXT
7:30am: With accreditation of voters scheduled to commence by 8am,there is no sign of INEC officials at some of the polling centres in Ilupeju.

7:40am Ilupeju, Lagos: Police officers from Ilupeju police Station started moving to various polling centres in the area. No INEC staff yet.

8:05 am Ward 9, Oyibo LG, Rivers State: No accreditation process going on.

8:07 am Uyo, Akwa- Ibom State: The atmosphere in Uyo is calm and people are getting ready to be accredited.

8:15am Ilupeju, Lagos: A youth identified as Sunday on Adeshiyan Street close to a polling centre causes a scene, says name was removed from the list of ACN accredited agents.

8:17am Amuwo Odofin, Lagos: A couple of police officers at the polling unit on Iyekantan street , Kuje Amuwo. Electoral officers yet to arrive.

8:20am, Amuwo Odofin, Lagos: At the Moradeyo Polling booth, two police officers just arrived, about 5 voters, no INEC.

8:23am Alausa, Lagos: Three police officer per polling unit in Alausa, but INEC officials are yet to arrive 23 minutes after accreditation was supposed to have started.

8: 25am: INEC officials arrive in Fola - Agoro, Lagos. accreditation process is yet to start.

8:28am, Ikoyi, Lagos: No INEC official at polling unit PU24/08/09/109.

8:30am Ikorodu, Lagos: Thirty minutes behind schedule, no INEC official has arrived at any polling point in Ikorodu when voters accreditation should have commenced @8am. Roads and open space have been converted into fields as youth play football across Ikorodu.

8:40am Amuwo Odofin, Lagos: A heated debate on whether it is right/wrong to receive money from aspirants to vote them at the Polling unit Iyekantan Street. he solitary police officer there looks uninterested. No INEC staff.
PoliticsRe: Report Here On National Assembly Elections: 2nd April, 2011 by agabaI23(m): 10:08am On Apr 02, 2011
bring the update on guys
PoliticsRe: Increasing Poverty levels in Nigeria at variance with its Economic Growth by agabaI23(m): 11:13pm On Apr 01, 2011
poverty by years In spite of Nigeria’s abundant natural and human resource endowment, poverty remains pervasive,
multifaceted, and chronic. Given the most recent data available, it is estimated that approximately 69
million (or 54.4 percent) Nigerians lived in poverty in 2004, an increase of more than 24 percent since
1980. This brief deals with poverty in Nigeria and focuses on the determinants of poverty in rural
households by identifying the household/community characteristics (such as the status of women)
and region-specific risks that affect rural poverty and how they have changed over time.
Introduction
The measurement and analysis of poverty are
necessary to: (a) know what the situation is, (b)
understand the factors determining this situation,
(c) help design interventions best adapted to the
situation, and (d) assess the effectiveness of
current policies and to determine whether the
situation is changing. Various definitions and
concepts exist for this purpose, but this brief
focuses on the incidence, depth and severity of
poverty.
The incidence of poverty (headcount index) is
the share of the population whose income or
consumption is below the poverty line; that is, the
share of the population that cannot afford to buy a
basic basket of goods. The depth of poverty
(poverty gap) provides information regarding how
far households are from the poverty line. This
measure captures the mean aggregate income or
consumption shortfall relative to the poverty line
across the whole population. The poverty severity
(squared poverty gap) takes into account not only
the distance separating the poor from the poverty
line (the poverty gap), but also the inequality
among the poor; that is, a higher weight is placed
on those households further away from the poverty
line.
Dimension of Poverty in Nigeria
Nigeria’s national poverty profile (as well as those
of the urban and rural areas) is illustrated in Figure
1 for 1980-2004 (based on available data). The
incidence of poverty has generally been on the rise
since 1980, with two significant dips during 1985-
1992 and 1996-2004. Focusing on the most recent
surveys (1996 and 2004), the national poverty
incidence was 65.6 percent in 1996 and declined to
54.4 percent in 2004. Similarly, in 1996, the poverty
depth (P1) and poverty severity (P2) were 0.358
and 0.207, but these decreased respectively to
0.225 and 0.122 in 2004 (Figure 2).
Estimates of inequality also indicate that Nigeria
has more unequal distribution of income than
Ethiopia, Madagascar, India, and Niger. Further
analysis also suggests that poverty in Nigeria is
predominantly a rural phenomenon, with rural
poverty increasing from 28.3 percent in 1980 to
63.8 percent in 2004. However, the proportion of
the urban poor also rose from 17.2 percent in 1980
to 43.1 percent in 2004 (Figure 1).
Thus, within rural areas approximately 44.4 percent
of households in 2004 could not meet their food
expenditure requirements. Another 19.4 percent
could meet their food expenditure requirements, but
not the minimum expenditure to cover other basic
Quantitative Analysis of Rural Poverty in Nigeria
NIGERIA STRATEGY SUPPORT PROGRAM Brief No. 17
Bolarin Omonona
needs (NBS, 2007). In the case of urban
households, 26.7 percent were not able to meet
their required food expenditure requirements while
16.4 percent could meet their food expenditure but
not other non-food basic expenditure needs.
Figure 1. Trends in rural and urban poverty (1980- 2004)
The predominance of rural poverty over urban has
been consistent during 1996 to 2004. In 1996,
about 70 percent of rural households were poor, as
compared with 58 percent of the urban households.
In 2004, the incidence of urban poverty declined
more rapidly than rural poverty with 64 percent of
rural households being poor (a 6 percent decrease)
while urban poverty decreased by 15 percent to 43
percent. The same pattern holds true for the other
poverty indices (depth and severity). It is important
to note that the incidence, depth and severity of
poverty among rural households are higher than
the national poverty figures, while those of the
urban households are lower, as shown in figure 2.
In terms of geopolitical classification, poverty
incidence, depth, and severity are higher in all three
northern Nigeria regions than in the three southern
regions for 1996 and 2004 (Figure 3, 4, and 5)).
Figure 2. Poverty depth (P1) and Severity (P2) by location
(rural, urban and national)
Figure 3. Incidence of poverty by geopolitical
zones
Figure 4. Depth of poverty by geopolitical zones
Figure 5. Severity of poverty by geopolitical zones
The North West, North East and North Central
zones have the highest poverty incidence, depth
and severity in descending order while the South
West, South East, and South South have the
lowest poverty incidence, depth and severity in
ascending order. All zones witnessed reductions in
their poverty measures (incidence, depth and
severity) from 1996 to 2004 except the North West
where poverty incidence increased from 72.7
percent to 76.4 percent. The reductions in the
poverty incidence, depth, and severity for rural
households in the southern zones are greater than
those achieved by their northern counterparts.
Hence, it could be concluded that poverty is more
prevalent in the northern zones than in the southern
zones.
The poverty estimates also indicate that rural
households headed by males are poorer than
female-head households, with all three poverty
measures higher for male-headed households in
1996 and 2004. It is also important to note that
there was a general reduction in poverty incidence,
depth and severity from 1996 to 2004 for both
male- and female-headed rural households. But the
reductions in these poverty measures between the
two periods were far greater (even quadrupling in
some cases) for the female-headed households
than male-headed households.
Determinants of Welfare in Rural Nigeria
The major causes of Nigeria’s poverty go beyond
low incomes, savings, and growth—which are
usually associated with a poor country—to include
high level of inequality attributable to unequal
access to income opportunities and basic
infrastructure, and poor education and health
status.
Using the fixed-effect regression model, the study
identified some factors that influence poverty and
the nature of their influence on poverty in rural
households for 1996 and 2004 (Table 1).
Table 1: Determinants of welfare in Nigeria
Variables Influence on poverty
1. Size of household Generally, large family size reduces welfare
in most regions of Nigeria. The larger the
household size, the poorer the family.
2. Dwelling type Decent accommodation also influences
welfare positively. Poverty is common
among household dwelling in huts than
those dwelling in decent houses.
3. Safe toilet There is also a positive relationship between
safe toilet and welfare. Poverty is more
pervasive in household with an unsafe toilet
than those with a safe toilet.
4. Marital status and
type of family
Polygamous families generally are poorer
than monogamous family type. Also, welfare
is higher in households headed by someone
who is monogamous, polygamous or by
those in the divorced/separated/widowed
category than households headed by never–
married persons.
5. Education Households with formal education have
higher welfare than households without
formal education.
6. Gender and age The gender of the head of the household
impacts on the nature of household poverty.
Similarly, the age of the head of the
household has an overall positive effect on
the welfare of the household.
Given the fact that differences in gender and
geopolitical factors have implications for the
determinants of welfare in rural Nigeria, the
analysis was extended to account for the gender
and geopolitical dimensions of those determinants
as described below.
Gender Dimensions of Determinants of Rural
Welfare in Nigeria
The following are important determinants of welfare
for households headed by males and females in
rural Nigeria:
With respect to age, education levels, dwelling
type, and access to safe water and toilet, there are
no significant gender differences. All the above
factors have equal favorable influence on the
welfare of male- and female-headed rural
households in Nigeria. Generally, households
without access to the above factors (either male- or
female-headed) have lower welfare than those with
access.
Male-headed households engaged in farming have
lower welfare than those engaged in nonfarm
occupations while female-headed households
engaged in farming have higher welfare than those
engaged in nonfarm occupations.
Geopolitical Dimensions of Determinants of
Rural Welfare in Nigeria
The following factors are important determinants of
rural welfare in the six geopolitical zones of Nigeria:
Education and Occupation: Across the six
geopolitical zones, education improves the welfare
of rural households, while households engaged in
agricultural activities have lower welfare than those
engaged in nonagricultural activities.
Size of Household: Large household size reduces
welfare in all the geopolitical zones except in the
rural South South zone, where the size of
household does not influence welfare.
Gender: Male-headed households have higher
welfare than female-headed households in North
Central and South South zones in rural Nigeria but
lower welfare in North West. Gender does not have
any influence on welfare in the North East, South
East and South West zones.
Dwelling type: Households living in descent
accommodations have higher welfare than those
living in huts in the North East and South West
zones but lower in North Central. Dwelling type
does not have any impact on welfare in the North
West, South East and South South zones.
Access to safe water: Households with access to
safe water have higher welfare than those without
safe water in the North Central, North West and
South East zones but lower in South South.
Access to safe water does not affect welfare in
North East and South West.
Access to safe toilet: Households with access to
safe toilet facilities have higher welfare than those
without safe toilets in all the geopolitical zones of
rural Nigeria except in North Central, where it is
lower, and North East where it does not affect
welfare at all.
Age of household head: As the age of the
household heads increases, welfare improves in
households in North West and South East but
reduces for households in South South rural
Nigeria. Age of household head does not affect
welfare in the North Central, North East and South
West zones.
Policy Implications
Three major findings could be drawn from this
study:
First, education is a key factor in the reduction of
rural poverty in general, whether the households
are headed by men or women and regardless of
the zone in which the household resides. Welfare
levels increase as educational attainment
increases, so households whose heads attained
tertiary education were the least poor while those
without any formal education were the poorest. In
line with this finding, existing educational efforts by
government and nongovernmental organizations
should be geared toward every person of schoolgoing
age, so that no one is left out.
Second, larger households were found to have a
significantly decreased level of welfare among rural
households. Awareness building on reproductive
health knowledge that could empower household
heads to make quality decision regarding their
family size may be useful.
Third, geopolitical factors are important
determinants of welfare. The poverty profile
revealed that poverty was lower in the southern
zones than the northern zones. Although poverty
exists in all the geopolitical zones, the determinants
vary across zones, so poverty eradication policies
should be flexible to address specific challenges of
each zone rather than generalized for the whole
country.
This brief is excerpted from the background paper “Quantitative Analysis of Rural Poverty in Nigeria.” This brief was written with the assistance of
Babatunde Olaniyan, Valerie Rhoe, and James Sackey. It is intended to promote discussion; it has not been formally peer reviewed, but it has been
reviewed by at least one internal and/or external reviewer.
The Nigeria Strategy Support Program (NSSP) of the International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI) supports the Agricultural Policy Support
Facility (APSF), an initiative to strengthen evidence-based policymaking in Nigeria in the areas of rural and agricultural development. In collaboration
with the Federal Ministry of Agriculture and Water Resources and funded by the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA), APSF supports
the implementation of Nigeria’s national development plans by strengthening agricultural-sector policies and strategies.

Copyright © 2010, International Food Policy Research Institute. All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced for personal and not-for-profit use
without permission from but with acknowledgment to IFPRI. For other use, contact ifpri-copyright@cgiar.org.
For more information:
IFPRI-Abuja
International Food Policy Research Institute
c/o International Center for Soil Fertility and Agriculture Development
No.6/ Plot 1413 Ogbagi Street
Off Oro-Ago Crescent
Cadastral Zone 11, Garki, Abuja
Nigeria
E-mail: ifpri-nigeria@cgiar.org
www.ifpri.org
www.ifpri.org

Forum GamesRe: *.*.*.Which Celebrity Does The Nairalander Above You Represent?*.*.*. by agabaI23(m): 10:19pm On Apr 01, 2011
Genevieve
PoliticsRe: Report Your Efforts On Buhari-bakare Team Here by agabaI23(m): 10:17pm On Apr 01, 2011
[quote author=Kilode?! link=topic=611008.msg8034771#msg8034771 date=1301692244]Apologies, if you are now a Buhari/CPC supporter.

I have to choose my business partners wisely bro. Make dem no go add "sontin" join the Oil wey I dey sell. grin[/quote]send am fast before I change my mind
PoliticsRe: Report Your Efforts On Buhari-bakare Team Here by agabaI23(m): 10:06pm On Apr 01, 2011
[quote author=Kilode?! link=topic=611008.msg8034723#msg8034723 date=1301691731]You no dey support GEJ again? cheesy[/quote]Before sending it to me? you are one hell of a bad marketer
PoliticsRe: Report Your Efforts On Buhari-bakare Team Here by agabaI23(m): 9:56pm On Apr 01, 2011
send the music to my email too. bntashi@yahoo.co.uk
Forum GamesRe: *.*.*.Which Celebrity Does The Nairalander Above You Represent?*.*.*. by agabaI23(m): 8:41pm On Apr 01, 2011
Pablo picasso
PoliticsRe: Abacha's Stolen Money Is Part Of The Funding In Buhari's Cpc. True Or False. by agabaI23(m): 8:40pm On Apr 01, 2011
Did Abacha steal our money?

Did Buhari say he did not steal?
PoliticsRe: Presidential Poll: North Set To Dump Buhari by agabaI23(m): 8:04pm On Apr 01, 2011
seal777:
JEG IS GASPING FOR BREATH, SOUTH EAST GOVS LOOSING GRIP, ,WITH BB TICKET, ITS NO LONGER AT EASE FOR PDP, THINGS RE FALLING APART. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
lol you are dreamer! My goat gave birth to a human being. I am sure you will believe that
PoliticsRe: Presidential Poll: North Set To Dump Buhari by agabaI23(m): 7:54pm On Apr 01, 2011
Alj Uche:
rubbish newspaper

1 question

WHO ARE THE NORT

DO THEY MEAN IBB CIROMA AND CO

or

DO THEY MEAN US THE MASSES

i would like to know
Because it does not suit you.
PoliticsRe: BBC NEWS REPORT ON WHY BUHARI WOULD LOSE by agabaI23(m): 12:38pm On Apr 01, 2011
GenBuhari:
Some parts of article are true and positive recollection of Buhari's record as Head of State  grin
You are one BB supporter who is realistic in that you know when the truth is said. grin

BTW what happened to the other parts of the article? They are spot on too? wink
BusinessRe: Jonathan Orders FG Parastatals To Patronise Nigerian Made Vehicles by agabaI23(m): 11:45am On Apr 01, 2011
9ijaMan:
Buhari will certainly never make such a ludicrous statement without first ensuring the environment is right and conducive. Hence no need for your warped conclusion.
Yes he will not make such a statement. he will make better ones like

1. Insisting that anyone travelling into Nigeria must not have more than 1 luggage
2. No body should handle foreign currency
3. restricting foreign travel
4. fixing market prices for tomatoes and groundnuts
9ijaMan:
How come such a "good thinking" was amiss when GEJ approved the purchase of garbage bins for almost 1 billion just a few months back!

Comparing Garbage Bins and cars, which one is being fully manufactured in Nigeria? Which of the two is actually easier to manufacture in Nigeria?
At least he listens to criticisms unlike Buhari.
Forum GamesRe: *.*.*.Which Celebrity Does The Nairalander Above You Represent?*.*.*. by agabaI23(m): 10:27am On Apr 01, 2011
mama G
BusinessRe: Jonathan Orders FG Parastatals To Patronise Nigerian Made Vehicles by agabaI23(m): 10:26am On Apr 01, 2011
Assuming Buhari has won the election and ordered FG parastatals to patronise Nigerian made cars, what would have been the response of the BB supporters?
Majority would jump into nairaland singing his praises saying things like . .
1. We said it, he is the messiah
2. GEJ would never have done that
3. This man is the in thing
4. Thank God we voted him etc

Why can't you guys be honest for ones?

Condemning good policies because it came from an opposition does not make you patriotic, it makes you pathetic.
PoliticsRe: The Opinion Polls Favours Jonathan, Fashola, Again! by agabaI23(m): 11:37pm On Mar 31, 2011
Wadeoye:
Can anybody provide the website of this largest research organisation called TNS-MRS? This company seems to be operating in the moon as we can't trace anything to this name on earth - no website, no office location, etc.
http://www.tnsglobal.com/global/alm/ghana/
PoliticsRe: The Opinion Polls Favours Jonathan, Fashola, Again! by agabaI23(m): 11:27pm On Mar 31, 2011
timbuk two:
that's not possible.
Any reason why that is not possible?
PoliticsDid You Vote In 2007 Presido Election? Who Did You Vote For? by agabaI23(op): 10:59pm On Mar 31, 2011
Who did you vote for? Be honest!
BusinessRe: Jonathan Orders FG Parastatals To Patronise Nigerian Made Vehicles by agabaI23(m): 10:55pm On Mar 31, 2011
Can GEJ do anything right in the eyes of BB supporters?

Can Buhari ever go wrong in their eyes?
PoliticsRe: The Opinion Polls Favours Jonathan, Fashola, Again! by agabaI23(m): 10:36pm On Mar 31, 2011
What if he gets 60% without rigging?
PoliticsRe: The Opinion Polls Favours Jonathan, Fashola, Again! by agabaI23(m): 10:25pm On Mar 31, 2011
The survey was carried out by a PDP outfit. It is not reliable undecided grin
PoliticsRe: Bashorun Dele Momodu Sues Bon by agabaI23(m): 2:43pm On Mar 29, 2011
uplawal:
Yeah,av seen some of his posts on political section and they are quite offensive as a muslim,always being sarcastic in his writtings,infact.
Well he has the right to exercise his urge religion not withstanding. That's why he is a human being and not God
PoliticsRe: Bashorun Dele Momodu Sues Bon by agabaI23(m): 2:27pm On Mar 29, 2011
uplawal:
@Lagosboy,i dnt know why you always bash politician,but you come on Islam section and start claiming to be righteous.
Only God knows his people sha.
grin grin grin
PoliticsRe: Buhari Calls For 'TOTAL' Sharia In Nigeria by agabaI23(m): 12:39pm On Mar 29, 2011
Yea the reporter does not speak hausa like many other reporters that make use of interpreters.
So it means that the hausa person/speaker he contracted to interpret for him deliberately changed what he said. It sounds like the IG saying he was quoted out of context after banning the use of cell phones in polling boths.

That he said that before running for the presidency does not change the fact that it is a position his person actively supports.
PoliticsRe: Buhari Calls For 'TOTAL' Sharia In Nigeria by agabaI23(m): 10:31am On Mar 29, 2011
"I will continue to show openly and inside me the total commitment to the Sharia movement that is sweeping all over Nigeria," Buhari said, quoted in press reports.

"God willing, we will not stop the agitation for the total implementation of the Sharia in the country," Buhari said.
. . .from the above link. Is it from the same media house that held the 'credible' debate?

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