₦airaland Forum

Blackonjee
where do Catholic priests and nuns get their proof of celibacy from?

So you think Seun is a muslim?

Ha ha ha.

The story which you posted on this thread babyosisi may be true, but you know one thing I learnt and confirmed about it, it is that muslims sometimes are not patient enough to explain things in the ways that they should. There is nothing that is out of place in the doubts that person had. They were legitimate, but the way his dad and the Mullahs handled it was perhaps what made Islam lose him. Every query he raised, I have thought before, and certainly some have not been aswered as I have not seen a good opportunity to ask, but then, I have not been treated in the same manner as he. May be because of my having western links and having western (caucasian), Nigerian and liberal muslim parents. If you want a response to the issues you raised, ask them one at a time, and we will go through them. But, you have to be really wiling to consider all the material presented to you.

The exchange between softee and 4get_me proves one thing to me, when people look at Muslims, they see only the streotypes in their heads. I wish that could change as it may be a starting point for an understanding that could lead to peaceful coexistence in the world.

Babyosis

Please give me a solution to the outnumbering of women by men in this present day. How would you want the women who have no husbands to feel, if every man were to marry only one wife? If you know one of such women, what will be your advice to her?

Dearzi,

Islam encourages muslims to pray for the dead in the belief that maybe, just maybe, God will have mercy on them and admit them into his grace inspite of whatever their shortcomings may have been whn they were alive. Thus, if a muslim commits sins before he dies, and he is not forgiven those sins, he will have to go to Hell. After a period determined by GOd only, he will then be admitted to Paradise. However, if after he dies, virtuous people pray for his forgiveness, he may be spared the torment of the grave, and also of the hereafter. We believe that your good deeds are not sufficient to take you to Heaven, but as a muslim, you also require the Grace of God. And if He is pleased with a servant of His, and that servant supplicates for say a dead relative, God may as He chooses, forgive that dead person.

I am aware this is radically divergent from the christian belief, but it by no means makes it inferior or wrong. Thus, I would appreciate it if christians spare me the lecture of it is bad etc, as that is their own belief.

davidylan:
Indeed ajia23, you have asked questions but are they practical? Are you really asking them to "understand" or just to "prove" that the God of the Christian faith is not the "true" God? Or are these questions now springing up as a smokescreen to deflect the immoral and ungodlyy acts of your prophet?

It will serve no purpose to begin to treat your questions, you want them answered "logically" however there is no way a logical mind can decipher the things of the Holy Spirit. The function of the Holy Spirit (erroneously refered to as mohammed!) is as an indwelling of God Himself in His children to lead, guide them and teach them all truth. He it is who holds the answers to all the puzzles you raise in your post but i will try and refute them as He leads.
- The God of the Isrealites in the old testament remains the same God of the New Testament. Christ Jesus Himself sent in the form of a sinless man to save the whole world from our sins. The God of the old testament was Jehova (God above us), appearing to the Jews (His people) in the form of a King and law giver.
Why did God give the law?
Rom 5: 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Note: Without the law, there was no sin as there were no rules to follow so you could not be accused of breaking any commandment. But when God gave the law through Moses, sin began to be taken account off as the law became a standard through which God judged His children
What was the penalty under the law?
Rom 2: and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Ez 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
What was the atonement for sin under the law?
The blood of bulls and goats. Heb 10: 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Why did Christ come to change the Law?
Please read the whole of Heb chapters 9 and 10 to get a full picture, i will only highlight key points.
Heb 10: 1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Note Paul says, the law as given to Moses WAS A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME! God knew the blood of bulls and goats was not enough to completely cleanse a man from sin but he sent the law as a fore runner of His own dying on the cross to shed his blood once and for all. which is why Christians do not slaughter bulls and goats every minute for their sins!
Heb 10: 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Note: The Isrealites had to cleanse themselves with animal blood EVERY YEAR! Look at verse 3, it says with their sacrifices, there was still a remembrance of their sins because according to verse 2, ONLY THE BLOOD OF A SINLESS ONE JESUS CHRIST COULD PURGE US FROM THE CONSCIENCE OF SIN! refering to being cleansed not just from sin but the very thot of sin itself!
Verse 4 quoted above clearly states it was not possible for the blood of animals to COMPLETELY cleanse us from sin!

So what was the alternative?
Heb 10: 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
the alternative was for CHRIST Himself, the Just God without sin to take on the form of human flesh to make an offering for our sins ONCE FOR ALL! No more yearly remembrance!
verses 11 and 12; 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Note, the apostle declares that the old offerings of the new testament could never take away sins, but when Christ came, he offered up Himself that remembrance should be made of our sins no more!

NOW! Why did God "Change" the law?
Heb 10: 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Note the wonder in verse 16! He made another covenant just like the one He made with Abraham's seed through Moses except this time around the covenant is no longer on tablets of stone but written into our HEARTS! Now Christ leaves in us, teaching us to avoid worldy lusts and by His Spirit, we have no more CONSCIENCE FOR SIN!
Rom 8: 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[c]
God acknowledged that the law was powerless to free us from the nature of sin. The law convicted us of sin but was not enough to stop us from sin. God decided to abolish our sinful nature (NOT ONLY CLEANSE US FROM SIN!) by dying on the cross for our sins AND shedding His spirit in our hearts to keep us from sin!

[b]Did God change His mind about His punnishment for sin?
No! The bible remains clear, the soul that sinneth it shall surely die! First of all, there is spiritual death which means separation from God. We may be living souls but in God's eyes we are dead, cut off from Him by sin!
But under the dispensation of the new testament, we are no longer under the law but under grace. We have a chance to repent. In the old days, you died as soon as you sinned, but God mindful of our frail and fragile nature decided to show us His longsuffering and merciful nature.
Heb 10: 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
But now we have liberty through Christ to sin and yet still stand a chance of forgiveness.
For it is by grace, Ajia23, that ye are still able to mouth your obscenities against God and yet still wake up tomorrow morning. Where it for during the old testament, remember what happened to Korah and Abiram!

Davidylan
Thank you for your calmness and resolve to clear this issue. I would just like to be a good muslim, who will understand his Creator, and through the love I show for mankind, worship that Creator because, God is love, and He has instructed me as a muslim to be kind to my fellow humans. It is only through being nice to them, and loving them that I can worship God. It's not really the number of times I bow to Him that matters, but the number of people whose lives I affect positively is what counts. In fulfilment of this obligation, I have encountered many people with diverse religious persusasions, amongst which is christianity. And when I try to live my life according to the Islamic law which afte a careful observation and study actually reteirates all the Christian doctrine says about morality, I observe staunch opposition from christians who normally should not oppose it. I then become confused and ponder for instance that the bible says do not dress immorally, but when I advice someone, or a law is enacted which forbids such dressing in a place, the largest bloc of opposition comes not from the offenders, but from christians. It is this observation that made me ask if christians are hypocrites, or the bible indeed set standards that christians cannot adhere to.

Now, you stated that Jehova of the Jews is the same God that died on the Cross manifesting himself as Jesus Christ. And you stated that he changed because he discovered that laws could not make man perfect. Also, He made the law  a forerunner to his redeeming the world. But that still leaves the question of why did he put the Jews through such an ordeal in the first place? Since it is the christian perception that the Jews have gone astray, can you blame them?


Also, Jesus came to redeem the world by dying on the cross, yet he prayed to himself to let the cup passover him despite knowing that this indeed was his mission. Does that not betray imperfection? Does it not show how human he was?

How could the devil tempt god with material possesion when it was god who created him?

Why did god say to god on the cross that eli, eli, lama sabatchani? why would god ask god why he has forsaken him?

Also, in making a new convenant with man, you say it was because god knew that the law could not save man, but you have still not answered why he did that.

I trust you will be able to throw more light on these issues so that I will be able to understand christianity to an appreciable level, and thus live in harmony with christians.

4get_me

If you are true to yourself, you will observe that I did not even cast the first stone. When christians attack the sacred symbols of Islam, I do not even throw back invectives at them , but try to explain what they seemingly do not understand. But the truth is, they come with a biased mind and will not accept whatever explanations muslims give, but delight in further denigration of Islamic Icons. Now, when I pay them back in the same coin by also raising genuine questions that I have about their religion, it is seen as being offensive. That is double standards. If he takes exception to my saying the hypocritical christian doctrine, then, he should refrain from giving the Prophet of Islam (SAW) such appelations as pedophile or murderer. Respect begets respect. I will not even attempt to cast aspersion at the personality of Jesus (ASW) even if I knew his mistakes not only because he is sacred to muslims as well, but also because he is an Icon of christianity. I can however refer to the doctrine of christianity as hypocritical if I see it as such, just like any christian and indeed most christians say Islam is characterised by a doctrine of violence.  So, he who wants to get justice, must come with clean hands. You will agree with me that I have treated him and others like him better than they have treated me, as I have not attacked any Icon of christianity, but rather the belief itself, while they have not only disparaged my belief, but insulted my Prophet. Can anyone be fairer? I do not take pleasure in unnecessarily annoying people, especially christians as majority of my friends are christians with whom we grew to appreciate and respect each other. I indeed wish that we could have that kind of relationship in thw world, but is this possible with the attacks on muslims by some unscrupulous elements with the active connivance and complicity of majority of christians?No. So, please spread the word amongst your brethren that we should respect each other. Afterall, if you review my first post on this website, it was to restrain Ajisafe from abusing and attacking other people in the name of religion. If Gwaine et al, also rebuke and denounce the actions of their brothers in faith, we could achieve the dream of living in peace. I must commend Zahymaka, and syrup sometimes for doing this, but that like a drop in the ocean. You indeed could also adopt this approach in the future.


Good guy

Pacifism also means the doctrine or belief that the use of violence is never justifiable. Meaning there is no need for violence at all in the world. So, is that what christianity believes? At least from some of the responses I got on this thread, I can come to the conclusion that christianity actually supports the use of violence if it is by a secular state to enforce the laws of the land. Consequently, I can also conclude that should christians find themselves in a land whichis governed by Sharia, they will not oppose it or use the Sharia law as justification that Islam is violent, or supports violence. In the past, they had wanted me to believe that the Sharia law is babaric. Now I know better.

Well lordimpaq

I can say kudos to you too, for seeing the meanness of your brethren and acknowledging it.

Well Kag, just check the link out and you will see that in the past, they claimed to be all peaceful, logical and christ-like while denouncing every other person. But in this thread, their true nature has been revealed. It would certainly make you wonder at their supposed principled stance and godliness.

Now, Gwaine, Instead of attacking odache, I would expect you to use your learned status to address some of the posers he raised. Please do not go it the biblical way of quoting to me some biblical verses to support your explanations. Explain logically how god would ask god why he has forsaken him. How the devil will tempt god with material possesions, how god will ask god to let the cup pass over him. How he would try to avoid saving the world  inspite of being sent down to save mankind at the last moment. Does that not show his apparent imperfection by trying to run away from his destiny? I will trust that you will be charitable this time, and respond with some civility.

Emmie4J have a field day. I can only pray that your match Ajisafe will somehow come back to this conference. I am however above this name calling exercise.

Now we can see the quintessential christian doctrine of hypocrisy on display. Now, when I started this thread, I said does christianity support immorality? And I stated in response to TayoD that while in the scriptures, theoretically, christianity sets an impossible standard, causing christians to actually be immoral and hypocritical, he disagreed with me. Now anybody who views this thread will acknowledge what I stated earlier. From the most 'learned' Gwaine, to the crudest emmie4J, christians have once again shown how hypocritical they can be. Imagine lionesses position, very typical indeed.


However, the question still remains to be anwered. Every christian here except for TayoD who later apologised for his intial faux pas, only threw invectives and avioded answering the question. That would not deter me in my stating the facts as I see them. It is okay when christians post threads like Islamic terrorism:threat to global peace, or call Muhammad (SAW) a paedophile, but muslims cannot ask decent questions like Does christianity support Immorality? I see double standards a manifestation of hypocrisy which I earlier stated. Gwaine attempted to distance himself from the Old testament as if to say it is not from the God that revealed thegospels according to Jesus, but his attempt has failed the logic test once again.Consider what he said below,

Now, with regards to quoting the Old Testament and trying to force it on Christians, you have not demonstrated clear reason - if indeed you have read through the Bible, instead of trying to 'hunt' a few verses to be taken out of context. Yes, indeed, I acknowledge those verses in the Bible that record the killings; and I cannot defend it as a Christian doctrine. For anyone to ask me to do that is tantamount to asking me to lose my Christian calling and become a Jew of Moses' day. God did not order Christians to go about killing people - not even as Muhammad pursued his career. The difference between the OT and the NT is the people to whom they were given and the covenants under which they were enacted.

Only to the Jews were the OT Law given, and that was clear in Moses' repeated decalaration:

Deut. 5:2-3 - "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."

Deut. 31:11 - "When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing."

Unless you want to make all Christians to become Jews, then I don't see how you who pretends to have read the Bible would have missed those points. So there - Christians are not liars, as you charged - it's simply that in your youthful exhuberance, you just don't understand them nor their holy Scriptures. Take my advice: engage in dialogue and be very slow to accuse others of what you don't know or understand. Ask ajia23, he knows just when some of us cannot be bothered with his caprices and when we can afford to send him scurrying.


PSSST: that picture at your profile page is cool. . . but, was that a knife you have under your arms, ready to slaughter those who disagree with you?

[/b]


Now I repeat my question which I expect him and other christians to answer instead of hiding behind invectives to mask their ignorance or using arrogance to screen confusion- [b]Was it the Same god that revealed those objectionable actions to the Jews that also sent Jesus down to earth? Was he a good god by revealing those verses to moses? What made him change his mind and suddenly become peaceful?  Gwaine, I expect that you would act mature and act your age, improve your scholarship skills, calm down and respond in a civilised manner which you have always claimed. Even if you find my post offensive as I have certainly found yours and others offensive, you would at least act like half the christian that you claim you are and turn the other side. and 'exhuberance' is actually spelt exuberance. Please stop being an aggressor by accusing my younger brother of holding a knife. You should know better than throw unsubstantiated allegations at your age and 'experience'.

TayoD I saw your explanation, and I thank you for trying to clear those issues, only I must say that a god addressing a theocratic state such as Israel and asking that the breast of women be plucked, is that god good? Is he peaceful? Why did he now change his doctrine overnight? was Jesus not sent to the Jews too? Your response raises more questions. I will however make it a step by step dialogue. I however appreciate your calmness abd maturity.

Dark child

Thanks for that link. I was surprised at the findings of those researchers. The Arab countries acted true to type by raising the ages for consent to sex in line with the Islamic tradition, and placing outright bans on same-sex relationships. I was however mortified by the figure for our dear country Nigeria. It shows we still have a lot of work to do.

Oga Gwaine

Welcome sir! However, with all your readership and research skills, you have failed to reply to my question. Was it the same God that ordered the Jews to kill unbelievers, pluck the breast of women off, cut the thumbs of prisoners of war that also sent Jesus down with the new testament? If the answer is Yes, why the change in tatics? Is he a good God by those standards? Is he the same peaceful God? If you think you cannot handle the question, fine, please call on your eminent acquaintance you met at the airport to help us.

I saw this article in the guardian of yeasterday, and it raises a lot of questions still unanswered about the divinity of Jesus, and indeed the fundamentals of the gaith. May be Gwaine can expouse the issues raised.

Hi all, to further butress my position that the bible surely contradicts itself, here is an excerpt from the Guardian newspaper of Nigeria today.

Still on the Da Vinci Code
By Osaro Odache
THE recent article by Pius Isiekwene in The Guardian of June 29, 2006 condemning author Dan Brown over his depiction of Jesus in The Da Vinci Code was another spirited attempt to hoodwink the unwary amidst inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions in the present-day Bible. Over the years, reasoned literary critiques of religious dogmas have always met with accusations of blasphemy and heresy. Adherents of Christian faith deliberately avoid discussing or debating such doctrines. In the process, the uninformed is further misled and sound reasoning is suppressed. But is the modern Bible totally free of flaws, as Mr. Isiekwene would want us to believe? A cursory assessment of certain Biblical positions run counter to the writer's position of justifying that every word in the Book was spiritually inspired.

The doctrine of Trinity forms the cornerstone on which Christianity stands. Yet it is one of the most profound and difficult dogmas to explain and understand. But should it be so? Of course, truth should not be so difficult to espouse and justify. If we agree that there is a Supreme Being called God then Trinity is clearly against the concept of one father in heaven who creates and sustains.

With the Old Testament saying "in the beginning there was God and the word was with God and the word was God", then the Bible is implying that God had a beginning. That would be contrary to the concept of eternity of God. Shouldn't the "Word" with God mean the command by which the Supreme Father causes all things to be and also bring them to an end as He wills. It is by "Word" that Adam was created (with neither father nor mother), Eve was created (without a mother but with a father) and Jesus created (with a mother but not a father). The lesson is that God is almighty and is capable of doing all things. If it would take the immaculateness of a being to cleanse the world of sins, the angels are better placed for that purpose. Otherwise, it would run counter to Jesus' statement that no man born of a woman is without sins: Jesus was born of a woman. The Bible also informs us that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist, (presumably, a sinner).

If Jesus is God, then the concept of God was incomplete for three days when Jesus was killed. The God in Heaven was also incomplete while Jesus was sojourning on earth and, of course, before his birth. This would be contrary to the notion of God being the same always. Also, of the three Godheads, whom do we supplicate to? Which of the three Godheads will sit in judgment on the last day?

That Jesus is the same as God predisposes that he was addressing himself on the cross for being forsaken in his hours of need. And how do we justify Mark 16:19 where Jesus sat on the right hand of God (sitting besides a different person or besides himself?). In the same verse, the Holy Spirit is missing. If Christ voluntarily surrendered himself to redeem mankind, how come that he tried frantically to prevent his own trial and crucifixion? And should Judas Iscariot be considered an enemy if he facilitated redemption of mankind through crucifixion? Judas ought to be glorified and commended rather than condemned and vilified. Were the people who wrote about the incident on the Calvary present at the site? Didn't they all flee when Jesus was captured?

The concept of God begetting a biological son was strange to Jesus' teaching. It is unity of essence/purpose and not of person. The Jews and Romans brought the doctrine into Christianity. Jews equally believe that Ezra is beloved son of God. Several people are referred to as sons of God in the Bible. In any case, what sort of father would ransom his beloved and righteous son to redeem the wayward and irresponsible children? Seems quite strange. Is it not against natural law for a carrier of burdens to carry other people's burdens?

Equating Jesus with God is not a position shared by all Christian denominations. Are they worse Christians? Why are there so many divergent interpretations and modes of worship in Christendom even though it is the same God, the same Jesus and the same Scripture? Why would a Christian refuse to attend any other church apart from his own denomination even with similarity of God and Scripture? Why are there so many versions of the Bible? Does the same Holy Spirit inspire these different versions with diverse teachings?

The controversy often generated by Trinity and other biblical dogmas and plain contradictions in several places in the Bible call to question Apostle Paul's statement (shared by Mr. Isiekwene) that everything in the Bible was inspired by God. Surely, God could not have inspired confusion. The original scripts of the Bible were in Hebrew, then Greek before being translated into numerous languages whereas Jesus did not speak any other language except Aramaic, a subset of Hebrew, now extinct. So, in what language was the Bible inspired and after how many years after the death of Christ? Of course, God could not have inspired the numerous contradictions in both the Old and the New Testaments. He could also not have inspired the disparaging statements made against other holy men such as Noah, Abraham and David.

The Bible calls on us to reason together. Therefore, does Trinity recognise the mightiness of God? If so, then what sort of (almighty) God would be defeated by a man (Israel defeated God in the Bible)? What sort of (almighty) God would be tempted by the devil (Jesus was)? What sort of (visionless) God would regret his action (God regretted creating man in the Bible)? What sort of (almighty) God would be powerless in the midst of miscreants who wanted his blood? How mighty is a God that got tired and slumbered (Biblical God was after the creation)? Is the statement credited to Jesus asking his mother what had he got to do with her a fair report?

Apostle Paul's coming into Christianity and outshining disciples like John and James after enormous persecution of the early converts is quite intriguing. His role in writing those books in the New Testament and in formulating new rules and declarations (unknown to or sanctioned by Christ) are so significant that his coming ought to have been predicted by Jesus. Disappointedly, Jesus never knew him nor did Christ anoint him in anyway. Was Paul's vision and conversion to Christianity corroborated by any of the known disciples?

There are several issues in the Bible that call for strong reservation and for which writers like Dan Brown are entitled to take positions. Trinity is just one of them. Religion is a matter of the soul and eternal salvation. It should be based on strong conviction not conjectures. Man should use education and intellect to ascertain the truth in order to earn salvation. This informs the need to study other Scriptures to ascertain the truth. It is the only way we can be free as people perish for lack of (true) knowledge. Dan Brown's literary work should be appreciated and not condemned. Mr. Isiekwene and other ecclesiastics should allow literary critiques of nebulous dogmas.


Odache lives in Benin City, Edo State.


© 2003 - 2006 @ Guardian Newspapers Limited (All Rights Reserved).

It sure raises a lot of interesting questions doesn't it? please gwaine, TayoD, mlks_baby, 4get_me, answer some of these questions in the most scientific way possible. I have looked for the answers to these for a long time.
Here is the link to the article http://www.guardiannewsngr.com/editorial_opinion/article04

Ajisafe incarnate, Are we missing on the topic here? Lest you've forgotten, it is: Does Christianity Support Immorality And Pacifism? and not WHO you prefer between a throat cutter and a cock sucker

Darkchild

Thank you, please tell these people to stop abusing muslims. They later turn around and claim we are the violent ones. the truth is there for the world to see. I would want to see what the reverend, mlks_baby, gwaine and m4malik will say to this.

Isaho, go to this thread and see what this so called peaceloving christians have in their bible. You will be shocked at what you see. I mean I was flabbergasted. I can understand now why reverend chose not to practice christianity.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-17418.32.html#msg484688

Kag, Nferyn, Simmy, Rhodalyn etc,
Please check out this thread to see how logical and scientific our christian brethren are.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-17418.32.html#msg484688

Atheists and Agnotists, I invite you to also come and contribute to this thread, may be, just maybe you will be able to justify what the christians have not been able to defend logically. Logical, I bet this is your field, please come and see the most logical explanations that can come out from the christians about their faith- You have to be in the spirit to understand it.

emmie4j:
ajia23

u f**king islamic retard,,,,we will beat u in your game and make no mistake about it,,,,, u and your brethren will fail,,,,by the time the U.S military turns the middle east into a parking lot, then u will quiver when next u hear the name "jesus". U think u guys are babaric right,,,,u think u guys know how to cut throat and blow people up right,,,,,wait in not a long time this giant will wake up and u will join your pediophilic Mohamed in history,,,,just wait and see. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS FIGHTING FORCES

Oh my God, this is reminiscent of someone I have now come to miss on this site-Ajisafe. Could this be him in reincarnation? Emmie4j, now you have confirmaed to me that christians are indeed hypocritical about their claims to being peaceful. I always thought so, but never was so sure. Now, America is your war weapon, yet a lot of your brethren claim America is a secular state, now the truth is revealed . Keep it up.


They plan, but God plans and God is best of planners.

Now to all christians, when I statrted this thread, I only needed a clarification of the issue I raised, but unfortunately, I got verbose invectives from quintessential christians, while the fundamental questions have not been answered.

OlaAjia painstakingly researched the old testament, and came out with some quotes which even by Islamic standards are so barbaric, and we asked, is it the same peaceful god of the christians that actually revealed those exceedingly violent commandments? If he is , what made him have the volte-face? Please respond to this as much as you can in a calm, collected and calculated manner. Try avoiding invectives as you are wont to do. Otherwise, you are certainly allowed to take the escapist way out of these things by pretending not to see the underlying issues.
I am still waiting.

Well, thank God you are not idiots. Ola Ajia is my brother. You still have avoided the question. Why did God allow the Israelites to kill, and then suddenly forbid it in the time of Jesus? Did God change? Did He realize He was bad before? Please answer those questions then proceed to answer the rest. I will now hand over the baton to OlaAjia as I have to go pray.

Check this.

Christianity:
Love peace. Do not retialate. Turn the other side.

Christians
I love peace. I cannot not retialate. I will not turn the other side because I am weak.


Now are these two premises congruent? No. They are not coterminous and are infact opposite. Why set standards your followers cannot meet? Is that not paying lip service? I will not steal, but I steal, what does that indicate to you? Do I support stealing? Definitely. If you want further simplification, please ask for it.

You sure are wrong. I don't hate christians, but I hate any form of vice in anyone be he Muslim or christian. Afghanistan was not my ideal muslm state because they were some issues like poor treatment of women which they carried out in contravention of the Sharia. But it cerainly came close. While I support Sharia, I do not support extremist standards as the criterion for judgement. As for the Northern Nigeria Sharia, I am afraid it's all politics, little religion. So, if people were killed innocently, it was a travesty of the norm. I am yet to see a truly complete Sharia state, but Saudi Arabia comes close even though they put in aspects of their culture into it. Still, their crime rate was the lowest in the world last year as it has been for years running. Reference, UN office for drug and crime.

Christianity should share part of the blame for substituting a strict code with one that preaches total freedom. This is the bane of the society today, and it is indeed haunting christianity itself. As evidenced by gay marriages, and sundry offences. The moment the Chursh realizes it cannot allow people toy with the law, the better the church will be from that moment.

No hard feelings

Allow God to determine for himself those that obey the law out of reverence, and those that obey it out of compulsion. He is omniscientand all-knowledgeable and will be able to know. Even if you do good out of compulsion in Islam, you still get reward from God, as you could still break the laws secretly. But as you said, God prefers those that obey His laws out of reverence. However, we believe that the society should also place strict constraints to ensure order. If you are half the christian you claim you are, then I am sure you would not support women to dress immorally. Now, why would you oppose a law that for instance, bans them from dressing immorally in public? If they wish, they could walk nude in their houses, but why should we allow them corrupt other weak minded individuals in public? So you see the position of Islam on the strict moral code. I slam does not erode free will, but seeks to ensure that personal free will does not compromise communal goals.

Hey rottweiller

Well done. Give it to them, show them what christianity is really about . I dey enjoy you.

Kellorah- Nice decision. However, please go and research into Islam, and you will find a world full of treasures.

TayoD
Nice personal attack. However, that will not distract me as I am not Ajisafe. I have some questions for you.

The God of Israel that allows them to carry out those killings, is he wicked? Also, Is he the same God as the God of christianity? If he is, did he change? When you talk about governements and organised societies, you speak as if those are the monopolies held by non-muslims. In Islam, personal attacks are strictly forbidden, and only a government can carry out Islamic judgements.

You talk of Jesus not allowing the woman to be stoned, but you will agree with me that he did not come to set aside the law, but rather to point out the hypocrisy of those Jews who wanted to stone her. At least you stated in another post that Jesus did not come to set aside the law right? So your argument on that score is implausible.

Ofcourse Love is greater than revenge, and in Islam, we are encouraged to forgive, but we are not barred from demanding retialation. So, you need to try harder to show that truly, pacifism as enshrined in your holy doctrines is better than a society held together by punishment as a deterrent to crime. Until you do this, please take my advice and hit back if someone hits you.

Now your latest post is very funny. My sister sends her regards

TayoD
It is convenient for you to see 'my hatred'of christianity when I raise posers about some things I don't sem to understand about the religion, but when the same allegation is raised about you or other christians, you are quick to deny and claim, I do not hate muslims. Please spare me all those sentiments and concentrate on the issues at hand. Now, when God stated in the Quran, if they fight you, fight them, He was talking to an organised group of people, so your thesis of societal disorder is totally unapplicable in the case of Islam, on the contrary, it is this societal order that Islam seeks to instill, and that is why places where we have sharia law are the most orderly and peaceful in the world. They have the lowest crime rates.

Softee

That precisely is my point. Most christians always fall for this same sin of retialation. Now what does that say about the practicability of such a law? If most of the adherents of the faith cannot practice just a simple provision as do not retialate, then, it speaks volumes of the teachings of that faith.

Hi TayoD

Now, you totally misunderstand me. When I say retialation, it's only one backed by those in authority. Now you made some satements that require clarification.
1. If someone kills another, and is still with the gun and shoots at the people in autjority, how would christianity say you deal with the situation.
2. What law does christianity come to confirm or uphold? Our traditional religions? or a law that states that gays can marry, people can fornicate, etc?
3. Since christianity supports the law as you assert, why do christians openly criticise the Sharia law even when all it seeks to do is enforce a strict moral code?

Please as much as possible avoid sentiments when answering, and give proper, well thought answers. Also, you may want to check out some intersting stuff on the threads Does the bible contradict itself? and Does christianity support immorality?