₦airaland Forum

@ Nubian, and mrlawng.


I must say I was greatly touched by the stories you  both wrote. I cannot deny that these things happened, and as the reverend put it, they are unfortunately true. There is a part you both missed, and that is the part of the Northerners killing even Muslims that are not northern in origin. All these lead me to one conclusion, in Nigeria, the Northerners use religion as a cover up to carry out their frustrations which are borne out of poverty. I served in the North, and I know that the way these people live is so bad, and we have to join hands to liberate the hapless fellows that carry out these heinous crimes against humanity. Someone that is so poor will see himself as better dead-this is the exact thinking selfish, self-serving leaders with some hidden agenda play on, to incite these fellows. I also have my own experiences of violence with them, but I must tell you all I did to conquer some of these situations was being extremely patient. Having known their psyche, I knew the only panacea would be to be patient and allow the reasonable ones prevail upon the unreasonable ones.

The other muslims elsewhere in the world that blow up themselves are in a situation which they consider hopeless, and this makes them do such. Imagine what will make a right thinking fellow blow himself up? But, these things happen because of the perceived injustice done to them, and they feel they have been so emasculated  that the only way to fight back will be to die. Then comes the promise of a good reward in the hereafter because they fight on a just course. This will make their actions more desirable. To solve those problems, we all have to make concerted effort to ensure that Justice is not only done to them, but must be seen to have been done.

A lot of people, Christians, Muslims, atheists, agnotists etc. see these injustices, but prefer to keep quiet in silent complicity rather than address  the root causes. So, they prefer to blame the actions of the Muslims which are the manifestations of the underlying causes, and refuse to address their grievances. It is especially convenient for them to do this because of the fear of irrelevance, reduced career prospects, loss of group memberships, and other things, for countering mainstream thinking even when they realise this to be deficient and evidently manipulated. But there are a few brave ones who stand up for the truth, and to these, I pay glowing tribute.

We need to stop making inflammatory statements that will further exacerbate an already precarious situation. We need to talk out of an understanding of the issues in the background, and have a will to solve these issues if we are to see the real message of Islam. And more importantly, we need to stop generalized chatisement of Muslims if we are to see real, learned and pious Muslims call the shots in the Islamic world. So long as everybody keeps their present belligerent posturing, there can be only one winner-the hardline exteremists who are way beyond line, but feed on perceived hostility of the world to Islam, employing demagoguery to sway the mood of the majority of ignorant Muslims to assume an equally and in most cases more bellicose posture, as a reaction to the provocative actions of their perceived foes.

To solve these problems, I would advocate a coooperation amongst  all stakeholders to ensure a diffusion of the tension, and give a chance to peace loving people irrespective of religious persuasion. Afterall, it was Nelson Mandela who said, while liberating ourselves from the shackles of the oppressor, we must liberate him too because he is a hostage of the hate which he has. Promoting the education of a vast majority of muslims will be a first step in liberating them from their view of the world.

Peace to all believers in the One true God.

@ Mrlawng,

Where are you going with all these? Go ahead, have your fun with the abuses. When Syrup tried to correct you, you quickly recoiled knowing fully well what the truth is.

@reverend.

So that is really how you look like? How curious. Men, you need to go and shave so you can conform with modern practices.

I guess this argument could continue for ever. I will not however totally say I am right because I was not there when all the history started. But I ask God to direct us. Amen

@ TayoD

This is simple logic. If Judaism is from God, then Christianity which also derives it's root is from God, only we believe both messages from God have been corrupted.

I found it hard to understand what you mean by the "prophets". Are these another scripture? Muslims only recognise The Torah (Book of moses (ASW)), The psalms, The Gospel, and the Quran.

Muhammed (SAW) did not come to change the Bible-He came to confirm what was in the original Bible after it had been altered many times by man, especially the enemy of the Christians at that time-The Jews. So his mission was to restore the gospel to it's original form.

All those quotes just confirmed what I said earler about the Comforter being Muhammed (SAW). I think the original meanings were altered to give the satements ambiguity so that Christians will reject the Prophet (SAW). The Sipirit of God (Ruhulah (ASW) ) sometimes called Gabriel, came to reveal to Muhammed all Jesus (ASW) said but wit modifications and corrections. It will interest you to know that we believe in the Spirit of God, but it is not another god, but part of God. Just like God breathed His Spirit into Mary (RAA), and into Adam, He sent this Spirit to Muhammed to reveal the truth, the Quran (God's word) to abide with man forever. Don't you sometimes wonder that the Bible was not written by Jesus (ASW) himself? While books like the Torah were written directly. The Psalms was also written during the Time of David (ASW). But Jesus knew his teachings will be confirmed by the Comforter, and then it will be written down. That's why he told his disciples to wait for the Comforter. But Idon't think he Said in Jerusalem ( I may be wrong).

@ Reverend

This on e has some truths, a lot of lies, and even worse an admixture of lies, bladerdash, and more balderdash.

TayoD tell am OOO. Funny that christians (Ethiopians) were the first protectors and supportesr of Muslims when the whole Arab world conspired to extirpate them. But modern day christians of the likes of Reverend hardly believe in what they profess.

I was going to sleep, but then I saw this and decided to react.

@ Reverend, now you did something worth commending. Thank you for that beautiful piece. Even I, was oblivious to some of those facts. Really? So Islam is spreading so much? God be praised. Europe like you know is pouplated by inquisitve minds, and I don't think with all their 'science' they will be led like sheep to the slaughter house by Islam. What this confirms to me is that I was right to become a muslim. It means Islam is passing the logic test everywhere it goes. Inspite of all the negative publicity, it is spreading. America is afraid of Islam and is tring to supress it, but will fail woefully. That article confirmed it. So, I say it is only a matter of time. The prophecy is coming true afterall.

Jesus(ASW) will come back, lead the Muslims and a group of Christians to fight the Jews and another group of Christians, kill the pigs, break the cross, and kill the anti-christ. And America may well be the lauching ground of this offensive. The last days are here, every breath you have reverend is a gift from God for you to change your ways and accept His truth so that you may be saved.

All willing Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, and Jews, you are welcome to join Jesus (ASW) and his party.

When you quote verses from the Quran, you must understand that they have to be understood within the context of their history as described in the Hadiths. All those verses you quote were directed against the pagan Arabs that had carried unjustifiable acts of terrorism against a nascent and small group of muslim believers. Before it even got to that level, the Muslims persevered for more than 13 years, and even emigrated from Mecca to Medina because of this persecution. Even after this, they were still chased by those pagans, and so God authorised the use of force so the Muslims could defend themselves. The verses were not intended to mean a war against Christians at that time, and even special verses were revealed concerning the Jews that helped the Pagans meaning they were not aimed at the Jews either. It may interest you to know that the Christians from Ethiopia were actually friends to, and protectors of the Muslims when they were still a small group. Besides even Christians defend themselves if they have been pushed to the wall isn't it? Especially in defiance of the message of Christ which is turning the other side of their cheeks when they have been struck. And I know for sure that the crusades against Muslims in the 10th and 11th centuries were not supported by any biblical references.

To answer the question of whether the God of christianity, and that of Islam are one, well it's simple. Before Christians deviated to start worshipping Jesus (ASW), they worshipped One God. Just like the Jews before them, and like the Muslims do now. This is why these three religions are regarded as Monotheistic. However, I think classifying christianity as that now may not be appropriate as it is now polytheistic in nature. Even Judaism has some strains of polytheism, but some Jewish sect maintain it's montheistic nature.

Ajisafe, just do as he says-ignore him till he becomes objective again.

@ Me, myself

You do not know how that message helped me change the deteriorating relationship between my mum and I. Thanks. May Allah bless you.

@ Mrlawng

You did not throw caution to the winds?

@ajisafe

It is evident you are a raving LUNATIC. You insult everyone. You should sit in your GOd-forsaken Shit-hole and leave this forum for sane people.

If calling someone a raving lunatic is not throwing caution to the winds, I don't know what is.

I am sorry I concluded you were Christian, but you did not say you are not? Even if you are agnostic or atheist, at least you subscribe to the decency in dealing with others. Now, I am not suggesting anything with this, but if I were attacked by someone, I'd not pick up a fight by throwing invectives at that person, but I'd rather focus on the object hoping that this will help diffuse the tension, and help whip everybody back into line. Do not throw caution to the wind just because you are in the midst of mad men, because before long, you'll not even realise you have become like them.
Cheers.

@ Mrmayor

You are right, I understand a little Arabic. You see Arabic is a language you can learn to read, but not understand what you read, and not be able to write or speak it. That is the category most Muslims in Naija fall into. They read the Quran-that's why it's called recitation, but they cannot understand without reading the translation to English.

I however devoted time to learn the language, and I understand it a little. In fact, the "spirit"in him was asked it's age, and he replied something like 20 000 years. Also they asked it's name, and it gave it. They also asked why it picked that boy, and it said it was because of some of his habits. All these were in Arabic. It still is a mystery to me though.

@ Mrlawng

Please do not abuse Ajisafe anymore. I have tried to restrain him from doing that to you, but like he said, there's no fire without smoke. I tell you that a lot of the topics on these threads are so confrontational, even though I would not respond to you in like manner, at least have the decency of practising what you religion preaches. I know christianity does not support being an aggressor, and Jesus (ASW) even said if you are slapped on the right side of the face, turn the left. But in this case, nobody even slapped some of the originators of the threads first. Almost all the Topics about Islam denigrate it's Icons. So please all of you, restrain yourselves

Dear Idrissa,
You get the essence of the Sunni belief very wrongly.

When God creates man, He knows exactly how he will end up, because He is all knowing.-I hope you do not dipute that. He however gives man the criterion to Judge between good and evil, and choose for himself his fate-free will. But alas, man ends up exactly where God knew he was going to end up- by his own choice of course. Remember, when God was going to create man, He told the angels, I will create a vicegerent on earth, to which they replied that He was going to create one that will spread mishief. What was God's response? I know that which you do not know.

When man was created, where was he put? In Paradise. Even though God knew he was going to end up on earth, he put him in Paradise to ensure that man had a choice-free will. So, by man's action of disobedience, he confirmed God's design for him. But God did not in anyway influence the decisions man took. He made those deisons himself. So if God had in knowledge seen where a man will end up, he did not pre ordain that for him. He gave him choice but he played true to gallery.

I hope you are clear on that Idrissa.

Afeni

I really must commend your argumentative skills, they seem quite sharp even though they will be better without bitter words. Being Agnostic means you do not know for sure if God exists. But at least, you are not in denial of his existence-just unsure right? The way you see Islam and Christianity believe me, I have tried to view them like that in the past. But, I must probably have failed to perpetuate the belief that just because they came to us through "forced means" they mat afterall have been the imagination of Europeans and Arabs. It may even interest you to know that they have common origins. And I honestly do not believe christians worship none other thatn God. But I certainly can tell you Muslims worship God- The one responsible for ordering and reodering creation, and in maintaining all things in balance.

I have a vivid memory of some part of my childhood, and I know that I had heard God talking to me in my heart. Don't ask me abbout his voice, because I heard just my own voice, but I did not know a lot of things then, and I seem to remember Him say I should make all the right choices in y life. At that time, I did not understand. But now, with the knowledge I possess, I think I have an understanding of what He meant-I should listen to my conscience. If we all could remember some of the things we thought about as babies, when it seemed to everyone we were ranting nonsense, we would find clues to some questions about the mystery of creation.

I however want to examine your suggestion objectively. We should as Nigerians and may be Africans adopt the religion of our fore-fathers. This is not a totally stupid Idea, but let's understand the merits for our going back to those religions. Firstly, you must know that not everybody was allowed to study these religions, consequently they thrived on ignorance as opposed to what obtains with these imported religions where every one can read and interprete subjectively the practice of these religions. And you must know that the African religions believed too much in instant justice, and in many cases in the superiority of one god over another. Thus reverting to these would be like reverting to anarchy and chaos as different adherents will in their quest to affirm superiority, unleash terror against each other. I dare say, this would eclipse the current fiasco between the Major religions in the world, and would consequently not serve our developmental purposes. Besides, why would I as a muslim, have direct contact and relationship with God, jettison this for a religion that will enable me get to God by pleasing numerous demi-gods?

And for those that establish a relationship between states that practice indigenous religions with development, let me point out to you that today, India is expanding scientifically and economically. And yes they have their native religion Hinduism, but this has in no way contributed to their development, otherwise why would a religion that deifies the cow( makes a cow one of their gods), see this same cow being slaughtered everyday, and still believe in that cow as a god? That speaks volumes of their intelligence if we were to judge them by their religion right? However, I know the Indians are intelligent not for the choice of their religion, but their camaraderie, and perfect implementation of a doctrine known as the spider web doctrine. This states that any revenue that comes into an Indian community, never leaves it. Thus they spend less money on buying cars from the Japanese or Europeans. The do not buy fashionable clothes from the west because they take pride in theirs. They go about in rickshaws that is their invention. And if you observe them closely, you would find that they have commmunity school for their kids-they don't attend expensive white schools for group membership. And if you buy anything from an Indian, the money will be circulated within their circles. If Nigerians, and Africans were to adopt a system similar to that, then we would start leaving poverty.

It is not a matter of the choice of religon, but more a cultural matter.

This really is getting interesting here.
@ Mrmayor in response to your question, not all Muslims speak arabic. In fact very few Muslims in Naija speak Arabic. What you hear Muslims say are some invocations they had learnt in order to perform their daily ritualistic devotions. In the case of this boy, I know for sure that he didn't speak Arabic prior to the exorcism, because, he was a Medical student, and I knew him well. I was also a student in the same school remember. That is why I was present where they were doing the exorcism. And another thing, I was perceived as too skeptic by my other Muslim brothers, because I tended not to believe in matters of the occultic or the spiritual world too much. That is why I got a front seat invitation to that episode. Remember, I said the boys tongue was sticking out of his mouth, yet he was speaking. Now how was this possible? Still remains a mystery to me. I wish scientists would attempt to investigate and throw more light so I can understand the process.

I am sorry I sounded stereotypical, goodness me, I really must try to stop falling in the trap of generalization. But baby4U, please explain to me how you are able to decipher what people are saying when they speak in tongues?
Thanks

@ owo

He has said that because his forehead touches the ground when praying and others do not practice such, therefore he is right and closer to Jesus(PBUH). I wonder why his religion must always use Layi's religion as a basis for correctness. By constantly using the Bible as its basis, this religion declares that it cannot stand on its own, it needs the support of another to survive. If the references to the Bible were removed from his religion's book, it would cease to make any meaning (at least so it seems). Yet the Bible does not waste any ink in referring to his religion. This religion must be using name-dropping as a means of gaining acceptance.

Dear Owo, I bet you must realise that you limited the scope of your arguement here, and this is not typical of you. But let me go into details to make you see your error. You are right that Islam has as it's basis some aspects of Judaism, and Christianity, particularly the references to earlier monotheistic faith. This is because Islam is not new, but a rebirth of the oldest religion in the world-monotheism. It also goes further to prove that by genealogy, the three religions are from the same source. Only that Muslims believe the message of Judaism and Christianity were altered by man. But you were wrong to assert that christianity is "something new" as even you know that Christianity came to the world because the Jews altered the Totah that was revealed to Moses (ASW) and instead started using their own versions of the revealed script to govern man and act like God. This is evidenced in their use of peripheral books written by their scholars instead of the Torah. And Jesus (ASW) came to call them back to monotheism and the right path. When Jesus was making his call, like Nferyn rightly pointed before about history, he never, not even in the Bible call to christianity. But in all Biblical references, Jesus called to the worship of one God. This to me is significant. That he prostrated in the manner that Muslim do today is not nearly as significant as this fact. It was after his demise that his followers thought to call themselves christians.

Now yet again, God had to send another person 570 solar years to redirect people to Montheism which He intended for man. Thus Mohammed(SAW) came. And he came to confirm in truth what had come before him, and also provide modifications to the previous laws that had been revealed before him. This in essence is why it seems Islam is based upon christianity and Judaism, while in actual fact, Islam is the reference from which Christianity and Judaism will be Judged. Islam is the world's oldest religion, and it connotes the worship of the One true God (monotheism). It was the religion of Adam, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus (ASW). It's just that the name became attached to it in the period after christ or so people think.

The only reason christians do not believe in Mohammed (SAW) is that like their predecessors the Jews, the expected Mohammed (SAW) to be someone like them. Unfortunately, God does not make it his point of duty to satisfy man and yield to his every whim. He works like they say in mysterious ways( oops that word mystery again). It is wrong for you to say Christians are not expected to believe in Islam, because there is a veiled reference9 by the way, methinks the veil was by man not God) to Mohammed (SAW) in the bible, where Jesus said, after Him God will send the Comforter. This is today misinterpreted to be the Holy Spirit.

So my dear brother, consider the facts and see if your previous assertions are still tight. The truth shall set you free!!

Bravo Ajisafe,Bravo, you put it succintly enough for even a daft to understand.

What is the correlation between Stoning to death and Terrorism. Please try to be objective. Also, even the current Judeo-Christian laws we have still supports taking lives, like for instance, in the case of someone who takes another person's life unjustly. And that is why in the US, people who are convicted of murder are either electrocuted or given the lethal injection, same goes for Nigeria where armed robbers are shot at the stake. In the old testament, a life for a life was ordained. Now from the foregoing, are you insinuating that the God that gave those laws is not merciful? Do the christians and Jews worship the same God? When the Jews execute this law, does that mean their God lacks mercy? And are you advocating that there shouldn't be punishment for doing wrong? What law exactly would your worship prefer mankind to follow?

Please answer these posers reverend. Also, I find it indeed curious that a reverend would use such uncomplimentary language as "merciful my a, ",  Keep it going, you are revealing yourself. By their fruits we shall know them.

Reverend you hardly know what you say

A married muslim person guilty of having sex, and who confesses personally, or against whom incontrovertible evidence has been established, is the one that is stoned to death. And for your information, the Jews still practice that law too, it was derived from them, but modifications have since been made in Islam. For instance, you would need four witnesses to catch people doing it in the act, and I dare say this in itself is hardly an achievable feat as these witnesses are required to prove that they did not spy on you. Now, in this day, is it possible for a person to go to another person's house, knock on the door, and be told to come in and still catch them having sex? If you bust into people having sex (that is without asking for permission to enter), and you dare stand up to witness against them, the Share 'ah demands that you be flogged and your evidence discountenanced. Now, if  this is almost impossible for one person, how would it be possible for four? What this means that is the requirement for obtaining evidence and subsequent prosecution is so skewed against the evidence givers, that it will be almost impossible to actually prosecute cases of extramarital or pre-marital infidelity. So in essence, Islam prefers those who commit those sins to repent to their God in private without letting people know what they had done. This is the modification of the one currently practised by the Jews. To illustrate this further, during the lifetime of the Prophet of Islam (SAW), a woman came to hi in self confession that she committed extra-marital sex offences. He (SAW) turned away from her. She came to him again and reaffirmed what she said, to which he replied that she should go and give birth to the baby she was carrying (a whole 9 months period). After this, she approached him again, then he asked her if she had breast fed the baby, she replied no, then he said go and wean the baby. In Islam, this takes two years. After weaning the baby, she comes back the fourth time, then the Prophet (SAW) said she should be stoned. After her sentence was carried out, he told his companons that the woman would enter paradise for her insistence on punishment on earth. And he also encouraged that people in unpleasant situations like that should confess privatelly, instead of making it public knowledge. Now, the essence of this story was to illustrate that the woman was given 2 yrs and nine months to repent and turn over a new leaf, but she chose the path of honour to have the punishment meted to her. And this is under the same Islamic law you wish to debase.

Thanks for that picture anyway, I didn't know that's how the punishment of stoning to death is carried out, you know few executions of the punishment  is carried out today in the world. In the lifetime of the prophet (SAW), very few recordings were made of people who were stoned to death for illicit extramarital affairs.

I just saw this as an ooportunity to throw some light on this topic, otherwise I would not have dignified your poser with a response as it is totally irrelevant to the title of this thread. Islamism- the new global threat. I suggest in the future you start a new thread.

@ Logical
I do understand that, and that's why I tried to caution him. I actually invited him to MSN so we could make it discreet, but he declined. Well, I would not continue to correct him anymore, I have done my bit of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil. I hope the rest of you will do the same for me.
Ma Salam

Thank you logical for cautioning him.

when I read his other reply, I suspected he may not really be Muslim afterall. I am not saying he is not, but it beats my wildest imagination that a Muslim will be this aggressive, and would even refuse to take advice especially from his muslim brothers. It makes me wonder, but I guess I'll just ignore him until he makes a volte-face. If by calling Kenya a wretched place he thought to hurt me, he failed miserably because I am Nigerian. But most importantly, I am Muslim and such cheap blows will not make me lose my cool.

I only just wonder how he knows somethings about Islam, because the temptation would be to imagine the hand of a non-muslim behind this character. Well, God knows.

My dear Ajisafe,
Humility is a virtue well espoused in the Islamic faith. I just hope you will stop for once and sincerely regret if you made mistakes, and if possible retrace your steps. While I agree that I should correct stereotypes held against Muslims by Non-muslims, nevertheless, I should be able to help my brother recognise when he has committed faux pas, and indeed redeem him. This is the essence of brotherhood in Islam.

It's not too late to say I am sorry for being so aggresive, I got real mad at what they said about my beliefs. If you do that, then your standing with God increases one level. Remember- Laisa Shadid Mon Garaba Nafsi, Ina Ma ál Shadid mon garab Nafsahu in dal Ghadab. He is not strong who can beat his opponent, but he is strong who can control himself when he is angry.

So I will continue to try persuading non-muslims not to do some of what they do which is by the way very offensive to my religion, but at the same time, I will remind my brothers to be mindful of their approach. May Allah help us.

I forgive easily, but it is debatable if I forget. Let me illustrate what I mean. For instance, you get close to someone, then as the saying goes, familiarity breeds contempt, this person then disrespects you. After a while, you forgive the person and you are willing to talk to the person again, and even play, only this time you will limit the level of play.
Have you forgotten that way?

@ Mrmayor

You say people who speak in tongues speak other peoples languages? This reminds me of my under Graduate days when a muslim cleric was carrying out exorcism on someone, and then the exorcees tongue stuck out of his mouth and yet was speaking Arabic. Now this boy did not understand Arabic at all, but here he was speaking fluent Arabic. Does this qualify to be speaking in tongues?

@ Ajisafe

I saw some of the things you wrote about the Christians, and other Muslims and thought we could meet on MSN so we could discuss them. But it seems you turned down the invitation. Firstly, I tried to assess you, and I have come to one conclusion. You learnt Islam and became fixated on one ideology-An eye for an eye. Let me give you examples of how the Prophet (SAW) dealt with insults. On two different occasions, he was insulted, what did he do? He replied with a better word. Do you find that hard to do? Even if the Christians started the desecration of our religious Icons, the prophet (SAW) specifically said we were not to retialate so that they do not go further and cause more damage which is what has happened so far. Please in the future be more suave, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are a coward. Besides, much of Islamic world was won by diplomacy and not conflict. Yes, there times when it's necessary to sting, but like I asserted earlier, it must be measured.

Now, because of your wild assertions, you actually called another Muslim a hypocrite. You went well out of your league to do that because the prophet (SAW) warned that when you call someone a hypocrite, and that person isn't, then you have become one yourself. Even during the time of the prophet (SAW) the hypocrites that were revealed were not attacked verbally by the believers. So I think you need to apologise to me, myself. Also, you condemned a whole country, and hurt their feelings by disparaging them in that manner. These definitely are not what a good muslim should do. I am Nigerian, but I will tell you something about Kenyan Muslims, they are more sincere than Nigerians. You need to get out of Nigeria to experience other lands. For instance 50% of the Muslim population here is Arab. And they have proper Aqidah. I know because I schooled in Oyo state, and my school was brandished an aqeedah school by the rest of the MSS. I also think the Kenyans deserve an apology. I would also like to see you apologise to the Christians you abused. Even if they riled our Prophet (SAW), they did not deserve those invectives you cast at them. I believe their teachings will also make them apologise to you evetually. But you are Muslim, and you should be an example.

Finally, I would want this platform to be used for constructive dialogue geared to make us all get a better understanding of each other, rather than a means to engage ourselves in diatribes of the manner I have seen.

Peace be unto you believers in the One true God.

Thanks Chinani,

You did not state where this Muslim Student's Association is? I really would like to know. I wish everybody could just treat the other with less suspicion, there would be a reduction of unnecessary rancour that we witness today if this were to occur.

I am glad you did not find those pryers unnerving and would at this point recommend you even try to know the meaning of some of what they said- you will be astounded.

@ Ikamefa,
I don't understand what you mean by yeah right? Please explain.

It is with keen interest, excitement and awe that I read most of what's been posted on this thread. I was really impressed by the sheer intellectual capacity od Nferyn, WesleyanA, and Layi. I mean, I could see logic and science being used as a basis for assessing what we believe, and how same failed Layi at the last moment.

I also took notice of prettyH and Kismat who both argued with passion and emotion that sometimes I wished people could actually practice what they believe in as passionately. I would however make my own submissions thus.

Nferyn and WesleyanA, I'd like you to please dedicate as much time to discrediting what Muslims believe in. It may actually help liberate about a third of the world's population. Kismat, I admire your zeal in showing that the bible contains a lot of inconsistencies and sometimes falsehood, but I think it will serve both our course better if you tempered your passion with a little more patience; remember Q16:125.

I have some interesting positons to make. Christianity actually alienated a lot of people from God, by opposing a lot of truths that were established scientifically in the middle ages. This was deemed necessary by the Powers that be at that time to preserve the authority of the church. Ironically, this is what eventually led to it's demise, denial of the truth. Now, it may interest allain, Nferyn and wesleyanA, that on the contrary, Islam supports and corroborates science. And since the Quran had been revealed 14 centuries ago, and it has not been changed even once, I challenge you to verify the veracity if my claims. In essence, my message is you do not necessarily need to be athiest because your initial experience with religion seemed to dwell more on mystery. You are invited to really examine something different. In fact, in the Quran, God urges man to seek knowledge about everything He has created and challenges him to use this knowledge to dominate the earth.

Let me start from creation.
Science puts it that the world begun as a big bang. There was a mass of gas, and in an explosion the nubala separated into many bits. This indeed is the exact manner the creation was described in the Quran. The only difference seems to be that scince did not explain why it took place or the cause, but the Quran asserts that it was caused by a Being who said be, and it was. Science only demystified the process. Now take special note of the word demystify.

The second thing is that along the course of the discussions, there was disagreement about whether there was actually a flood that destroyed the world. My answer is yes, water destroyed the people of Lot(ASW) not the world. And bringing the movement of tectonic plates does not say it did not happen. In the Quran, the movements of the plates is actually described. Now, God says, He destroyed the people of Lot (ASW) with Water, He did not say how. But He also metions in the Quran that there are mass movements of the earth or tectonic plates, and only recently in the 20th century was it discovered that the plates actually moved, and the movement of these plates can cause water to be displaced consequently covering land which hitherto had supported Human habitation. So it can be inferred, but not concluded that a movement of plates along with the rains, could have caused water to overflow i't's banks and destroyed the people of Lot(ASW) who were living on one part of the earth. The Quran never assumed that the whole world was destroyed, so other life forms existed elsewhere.

Thridly, the Quran describes the mountains as pegs that hold the earth. This view has been corroborated by science recently, that mountains have an even larger body mass below surface and act as a stabilising influence on the earth. The Quran further describes the Universe as an expanding Universe. Astrologist discovered also in the 21st century that the Universe is constantly expanding, and that as the planets drift away from each other, they become bigger and bigger.

The Quran describes in detail, the stages a child passes through in the womb of it's mother before delivery. This influenced the works of one of the most successful anatomist of the 2oth century, Prof. Keith Moore, and he actually acknowledge the Quran as his source of research.

The point I am trying to make here are two fold. The first is, religion doesn't necessarily contradict science as seen in the case of Islam, in fact science explains logically the message in religion.

The second is that, what science cannot explain, we term mystery. But time has shown that mysteries do not last lond as man's inquisiton for more and more knowledge leads him to find answers to those former mysteries. In Islam, miracles can be explained scientifically, so long as you take the time to seek knowledge about ho they could have occured.

I will continue this soon

Permit me to say I can see this is a straght fight between the conservatives and the liberals. Fortunately, on some issues, I am conservative, and this just happens to be one of them. God, in his infinite wisdom, in all major originally monotheistic religions has set the limits for mankind. But man, in his limited but rebellious wisdom thinks he can bend those limits, or break them entirely. This has always been his bane. And all the time, it leads to his destruction.

The limits are clear, you are not allowed to as much as kiss your spouse, before marriage, not to talk of actually co-habiting with same. All the excuses which justify this practice are lame, and hold no water. Those that are liberal in their views are only so because, like our ancestor Adam and eve did, they tasted the fruit. And from the moment you do that, there is no turning back! And so to them, it wouldn't matter if you had sex or not, however, I am of the opinion that you should not have premarital sex under whatever pretext, and definitely, you should avoid situations that will lead to this grievious sin. Those who have tasted the fruit, even though it may be difficult to abstain from having more and more bites of it, I advise that you first reduce the extent of the bite, and gradually, just like an alcoholic, you will start giving up the vice. Cheers.