₦airaland Forum

Reverend

I am still waiting,

Dear reverend,

Can you possibly create a graffitti of a woman leading the congregational prayer in Islam and she's got this big butt and all the guys are staring at that instead of keeping their minds on worship? Or maybe a woman leading the church and all the elders scrambling to have her as a bed mate? These are some of the situations that are surely recipes for disaster if women are allowed to foray into this aspect of life.

4get_me

What does historicity mean? Historical Authenticity? Now substitute this into your earlier posts, when you make corrections then you can rephrase your questions.

If horses were wishes, or is it if wishes were horses, then shawna will ride.

Abeem,

The Quran contains may more miracles, just check out the miracles of the Quran by Harun Yahya and you will fing out so many.

Well said gigitte, different roles! That's right.

I have met many great Igbo people( Rochas Okorocha, Dr. Noel Ihebuzor, Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala and so on) in my life who are so detribalised and amply qualify to rule Nigeria. However, I am more concerned with a candidate that shows and exhibits potential to turn things around in this country, a visionary-not an Igbo man, or Efik, or Yoruba, or Ibibio. So please stop being particular about ethnitcity or for that matter religion, but concern yourselves more with policy statements, a practical manifesto etc. when selecting candidates for the 2007 elections. If I see an Igbo man with the same qualifications and attributes as any other man, so long as there is no south southerner with the same qualifications, I'd probably vote for him. In effect, I will use a two layer filter- Merit first, then quota based on disadvantage second.

Mlks_baby

Islam recognizes women as equal to man in piety, good deeds, and being a person. But Islam also acknowledges the differences in physiology, psychology, and anatomy as well as role, of women and men in society. So, while it is not compulsory for a woman to cook for her husband, feed the children, take care of the house in Islam, they are encouraged to do so to seek the pleasure of God, and their husbands. The husbands are also encouraged to pay them for those services. But Islam clearly stipulates that a woman CANNOT be the political leader of a society, and warns of the severity of the consequences of this happening.

Therefore, a woman cannot be an Imam since she can't be a political leader, and the Imam is both the political and religious leader of a community. I can't speak for christianity, but as regards the Islamic position, I will encourage my wife to get to the top of her career if she is in the education line, health or business, but I will never allow her into politics.

Mrmayor

Here we go again with unsubstantiated and frivolous claims and assertions. God help you.

Yes indeed belloti

That is what I am talking about. Sajdah while reading the Quran.

Mlks_baby,

I seemed to have been in such a hurry to repudiate the inconsistencies in the examples cited by Gwaine, TayoD, Davidylan etc, that I decided to work based on their statements, without bothering to provide background proof. Thus my stance on making assumptions. But I took your advice and did some research the result of which is below.

@ Gwaine
I must confess, you and Davidylan and mlks_baby are very persuasive arguementators. If you should know, a lot of questions you raise here make me ask myself some questions which I hitherto would not have bothered to ask. But, just as I try to fix those scenarios into real life situations, and possibly view them from a human perspective or more accurately put, from your perspective, I also see other occurences which re-strengthenes my faith in Islam, which I suspect you may not know or will not even consider. So, while I try to understand the reason and rationale behind Fatima's marriage and some other sundry issues which prove the humanity and fallibility of the Prophet of Islam (SAW), I also see practical solutions to the myriad of modern day problems, like interest free banking, a strict moral code to prevent almost all the trouble between contending forces in today's world and a lot of other laudable aspects of Islam which are the primary cause for my attraction to the religion. Mention must also be made of it's practicality as regards dealing with people who are intent on persecuting you, self defence and cohabitation with people who do not share the same beliefs.

All these make me stronger as a muslim, even as your queries make me have a better understanding of some situations which existed in the time of the Prophet (SAW), his actions and reactions to those situations ( whether wrong or right), and if those same constraints apply to me, and whether I can possibly improve upon them by following the later day corrections to those situations. So, I wouldn't say for instance that the Prophet rode on a camel, and therefore it's compulsory for me to ride on a camel. etc. etc. I hope you understand that Muslims are required not to follow a dogma but the principles. This said, I went to research the validity of your proofs of Ayesha's age and found the following.

Deaths of Abu Talib and Khadija. In 619 C.E. Abu Talib and Khadija died. Among the Muslims the year 619
C.E. came to be known as 'The Year of Sorrow'. Abu Talib had been more than a father to the Holy Prophet.
In spite of the strong pressure of the Quraish he had protected the Holy Prophet. Khadija had been for the
Holy Prophet more than a wife. She had placed all her wealth ,which was considerable, at his disposal. She
had given him love. She was the first person to be converted to Islam, and had been a pillar of strength for
the Holy Prophet as well as the Muslims.

The passing away of Abu Talib and Khadija created a great vacuum in the life of the Holy Prophet, and he
felt very lonely and disconsolate. In this hour of bereavement Abu Bakr tried to console the Holy Prophet,
and he spent most of his time in his company. It was the endeavor of Abu Bakr that he should as far as
possible fill the vacuum created by the deaths of Abu Talib and Khadija.

Holy Prophet's marriage with Sauda. At the instance of Khawla bint Hakim the Holy Prophet married
Sauda bint Zama'a. Sauda was an elderly lady and was among the early converts to Islam. She was a good
housewife, and looked very well after the house and the children of the Holy Prophet.

Proposal for engagement to Ayesha. Khawla bint Hakim suggested to the Holy Prophet that he should
marry some young lady as well who could keep him company. Whom could he marry, inquired the Holy
Prophet. Khawla suggested that Ayesha the daughter of Abu Bakr would be a good choice. The Holy
Prophet left it to Khawla to pursue the matter with Abu Bakr. Khawla approached Abu Bakr, and his wife
Umm Ruman and made the proposal for the engagement of Ayesha to the Holy Prophet. Abu Bakr felt
honored at the proposal, but his difficulty was that Ayesha was already engaged to Jubayr son of Mut'im,
and it was against Abu Bakr's code of conduct to break his pledge. When this difficulty was brought to the
notice of the Holy Prophet, he said that God would Himself provide a way out of the difficulty.

Mut'im. Abu Bakr called at the house of A1Mut'im. Al-Mut'im was still a disbeliever, and Mu'tim's wife said to
Abu Bakr "O son of Abu Qahafa, suppose we married our son to your daughter, you would turn him into an
infidel, and convert him to your religion". Abu Bakr made no reply, but turning to Mut'im said, "What does
she mean? " Mut'im said indifferently, "She is saying what you have heard."

Abu Bakr said, "This means that you repudiate the engagement." "So let it be," said Al-Mut'im.

Ayesha's engagement to the Holy Prophet. At the repudiation of the engagement by Al-Mut'im, Abu Bakr
felt happy, and returned home relieved of a great burden. God had Himself provided a way out of the
difficulty. Abu Bakr hastened with the good news to Khawla, and asked her to invite the Holy Prophet to his
house. The Holy Prophet responded to the call, and formally asked for the hand of Ayesha. Abu Bakr was
overwhelmed with joy and emotion and said, "O Prophet of God, all that I have is yours".

At a simple ceremony Ayesha was engaged to the Holy Prophet. It was, however, decided that the
actual marriage ceremony would be held later.

Age of Ayesha. In most of the accounts that have come down to us, it is stated that at the time of her
engagement to the Holy Prophet, Ayesha was a girl of six or seven years only. This appears to be an
understatement. We have it on record that when Abu Bakr became a Muslim his children included Abdur
Rahman, Abdullah, Asma, and Ayesha. Abu Bakr became a Muslim in 610 A.D. and Ayesha must be at
least eleven or twelve years of age at the time of her engagement, and not six or seven years.


Now to his marriage,

Marriage of Ayesha. When the Muslims were duly settled in Madina, and the families of the Holy
Prophet and Abu Bakr had come to Madina, it was decided that the formal ceremony of the marriage of
Ayesha the daughter of Abu Bakr to the Holy Prophet should be performed. Ayesha was now of age.
The crisis of Islam was over. The Holy Prophet was no longer a persecuted person; he was now the ruler of
Madina. The Holy Prophet needed a young lady by his side whom he could love. One day early in 623 C.E.,
the Holy Prophet accompanied by his companions went to the house of Abu Bakr at Sukh to seek the hand
of Ayesha in marriage.

Ayesha's account of marriage. Ayesha has left an account of the wedding day in the following
terms: "The Prophet of Allah came to our house where many of the companions were waiting. My mother
brought me sitting in a litter on two poles. She made me descend; then she smoothened my hair, and
washed my face with water. Then she led me to the door of the house where she stopped until I regained
my composure. Then she took me to where the Prophet of God was sitting in our house, and made me sit
near him saying, 'These are your people. May God bless them through you, and you through them'. The
people then left, and the Prophet consummated the marriage while in our house."

After the marriage. After the marriage, Ayesha was assigned a separate quarter adjoining the
mosque. Ayesha was handsome, intelligent and eloquent, and the Holy Prophet loved her intensely. The
marriage brought Abu Bakr still closer to the Holy Prophet. There is a tradition that once a companion
asked the Holy Prophet whom did he love most, and he said 'Ayesha'. 'And whom do you love next'
asked the companion, and the Holy Prophet said 'Her father Abu Bakr'.

Now, it is worthy to note two points;
Firstly, The Prophet got engaged to Ayesha at above 10 years since her father became a muslim at 610 AD, and Ayesha (RA) was already born then, and the year of the engagement was 619 AD.

Secondly, She was with her family until 623 AD when He (SAW) finally married her. Meaning she was probably older than 13 yrs, assuming that she was born in the year 610 AD just before her father converted to Islam. So you can see that the reports of six or nine years are most probably wrong.


Fatima's marriage,


When the Holy Prophet migrated to Yathrib he left his family at Makkah. When the Muslims had settled in
Yathrib (renamed Madina) the Holy Prophet and the other Muslims called their families to Madina. At the
time of migration, Sauda an elderly lady was the only wife of the Holy Prophet whom he had married after
the death of Khadija. About a year after his arrival in Madina, the Holy Prophet married Ayesha, a
daughter of Abu Bakr.

By this time, Fatima, the youngest daughter of the Holy Prophet had come of marriageable age, and the
Holy Prophet had to consider the question of her marriage. Abu Bakr waited on the Holy Prophet, and
asked for the hand of Fatima. The Holy Prophet made no answer. Thereafter Umar asked for the hand of
Fatima and the Holy Prophet maintained silence. In the Arabian society of the day, the disparity in the age
of the bride and the bridegroom did not matter. The Holy Prophet married Khadija when he was twenty-five
and she was forty, fifteen years older than him. Later the Holy Prophet, when over fifty, married Ayesha
yet within her teens. When the Holy Prophet did not respond to the requests of Abu Bakr or Umar he was
not bothered about the age question; his silence was due to the fact that he had to wait for the guidance
of God which was wont to get in all matters of importance affecting his person.

After the Battle of Badr, Ali made his suit. The Holy Prophet told Ali that he would give his reply after
consulting Fatima. The Holy Prophet consulted Fatima, and she maintained silence signifying her assent. In
the meantime the Holy Prophet received the revelation that God approved of the marriage of Fatima
with Ali. When Fatima the mother of Ali called on the Holy Prophet to press the suit on behalf of Ali, the Holy
Prophet was pleased to announce his acceptance.

According to all accounts that have come down to us, the marriage of Ali and Fatima was an ideal
marriage. It was a union of two great souls. Hafsa, a daughter of Umar and later a wife of the Holy
Prophet wrote some verses highlighting the greatness of the pair. She said: Fatima is superior to
womankind in the world; she is the lady whose face shines as the full moon; she is the bride whose groom
excels all in Scholarship.

According to some authors Ali was twenty-one years old at the time of marriage, while Fatima was
sixteen years old. According to my research the date of the birth of Ali is to be placed around 599 C.E. and
on this basis he was 24/25 years old at the time of marriage. Fatima was born around 604 C.E. and on
this basis she was 19/20 years old at the time of marriage. There appears to be a tendency with the
writers of old to under estimate the ages of persons particularly women. In most of the books, for example,
it is said that at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet, Ayesha was a child barely nine years
old. Ayesha was more or less of the same age as Fatima or very nearly so, and was well within her teens
at the time of her marriage.

Undoubtedly the marriage of Ali and Fatima was an ideal marriage as the marriage was performed
by the Holy Prophet in accordance with the will of God, it could not be anything but an ideal marriage. As
an ideal marriage it should have been a happy marriage. In this context two aspects of the case need
special consideration. One is the economic factor and the other is the temperamental factor.


Now, having seen all these, you may accept or reject them ONLY if you can give proof of more authentic hadiths about these incidences. Most of this history is culled from Sahih Bukhari, and the commentary given by established Islamic teachers.


So, my friends please keep asking questions that attack the very morality that I cherish in Islam, so that I can put to test my knowledge about my beliefs.
Thanks

remy_jims

There are two that I know, but I will give you the one I use, and it can be found in the small pocket book known as Hisnul-Muslim-
Sajadah Wajihi Liladhi halqahu wa sawarahu, wa shaqqi sam'ahu wa basarahu, bi hawlihi wa quwatihi. Fatabaraka Llahu ahsana haliqeen.

Meaning

My face falls prostrate before He who has created it and brought forth its faculties of hearing and seeing by His might and power. So blessed be Allah, the best of creators.

If I had a 6yr old daughter, and some person came to marry her, I'd probably go clean up my double barrel, and load some 16 mm catridges. But that's besides the point. I am saying assuming that Muhammed (SAW) married Aisha (RA) at 9 yrs old, does that mean he slept with her at that age? And like I said earlier, all this is mere conjecture, go research and provide real proof that he indeed got married to her at that age, and slept with her too. Until then, please enjoy your cyclical concourse.

Afeni

Thanks for letting me know Nigeria is a Muslim country. I am greatly encouraged, and I will work very hard to make it a better muslim country before I die.

@ mlks_baby

I am glad you think we should have a common ground. But remember, when I asked Gwaine or one other person( I can't remember who exactly) to investigate the arabic language to verify the use of the plural to signify respect, and that person chose to ignore my entreaties, and some other muslim came to post exactly what I had said earlier, I told him not to bother since even the evidence I brought was not even investigated for validity, you came out all hard, instructing me on how nairaland was not an arabic school, and I couldn't force my beliefs on someone else, even inspite of my actually asking for a consideration of my evidence-meaning an objective critique and appraisal and not adopting a 'accept it or nothing posture'. You chose to interprete my actions as forcing down my belief on everyone else, now you see where I am coming from.

allonym

So you noticed too? If that observation came from me,, or any other muslim for that matter, they would have screamed bigotry till the heavens came down. Any time you make an observation about what holes seemed to be gaping in their arguments, what you get is an accusation of trying to force down your views on the, even when you are appealing that they investigate responses to their query, they say you are trying to make Nairaland into an Arabic school. Typical isn't it?

@ M4malik

Go ahead my trumpet blower, blow as hard as you can, it's just that I would not pay you as you are rendering an unsolicited service.

Thanks for the compliments. When you people talk of someone you cannot reason with, I have come to discover that the person's probably a thorn in your flesh, and is by all standards above your trickery, foolery and simplistic imagery that you throw up and concoct. Have a field day with that particular dismaying capability to believe in your false propaganda, soon, you will meet with a certain reality. One that cannot be bargained away.

@ DavidLan

Are you a pagan? Did you persecute the muslims in the 7th century? I have so many similar questions for you, but if your answers to the first two are yes, then I would have fought you if I lived in the 7th century.

@ Syrup

Let America define paedophilia for you, their definition is for you and your generation. I doubt if they can go dig up the corpses of the past generations that engaged in paedophilia by their definition.

And the reference to Muhammed (SAW) sleeping with a 9 yr old girl is totally false, as I took the pains to verify it. When a marriage is consummated, it means the dowry has been paid, and the couple can be deemed to be man and wife. Nothing specifies the rules of sexual intercourse, and stating anything on it will be just conjecture. The Hadiths you quoted does not exist, please check your sources again

LOL Reverend, you sure got a good sense of humour. You should take up a job with NTA or Ali Baba.

@Logical,


Quote from: Logical on Today at 12:45:36 PM
So really comparison is unwarranted, and Islamic preachings never claim there are similarities nor do they preach it, rather they necessity to acknowledge and believe in the message of both as a pre-requisite.

Logical, it seems you are dealing with Confused people, or people who have made a delibrate attempt to obfuscate matters, anyhow, I don't think you should dignify the last posst with a response. If he needs the response, let him go to other threads he'll find it.

Even George Bush's America in the publisiced definition of a terrorist by their own standards, does not say someone who believes in the Sharee'ah is a terrorist. I can see you are bringin g a new definition. It's expected, and I know that what is at stake is the way of life muslims have adopted. Soon it will get to the stage of persecuting muslims who believe in the sharee'ah. I am well prepared for that stage, and will gladly die knowing that I lived my life by the sharee'ah and died by it. So my friend, mrlawng, I am unashamed and unapologetic and unrepentant in my belief in the implementation of the law of God. What about you?

They are very many existing. What peeves me is nott his ilk, but the type of people that tolerate these attacks, and then when I STate what I believe, they are quick to claim that I am pouring invectives. A lot of people nee to define the word invective. If I stated that by not following the doctrine of pacifism which most christians confess as exemplified by their reluctance to turn the other side of the face when slapped, I perceive hypocrisy, they turn and say that is an invective. When I say I feel some condescension in their manner of addressing or responding to me, they say it's a silent way of throwing invectives. Meaning I cannot state how I FEEL, but I have to accept what they say about the alleged atrocities of Muhammed (SAW) by going as far as describing him as a nurderer and paedophile. Who is throwing invectives?

I am just learning a lot about their tricks, they wouldn't want a fair argument as they choose what to respond to and what to ignore, and then engage in self exultation in a hubristic manner about how the muslims withdraw because they can't stand up to them. What they however fail to realise is that every Muslim on this forum is not trying to prove how good he is with arguments and the techniques, but is more concerned primarily with changing the presumptious beliefs held about Islam. We are not even concerned with converting them back to Islam as making sure that they hear the message. God will do the conversion.

I however encourage my brothers for the spirited defence put up so far. May Allah reward us all.

LOGICAL

It is typical to see them do that. When you raise points, they leave those that seem genuine and pick o one thing even ignoring your explanations, and when you ask them to investigate, you'll be accused of forcing down your views on them. THE simple fact is that Muhammed (SAW) married Aisha (RA) at age 9, and had sex with her only at about between age 12 to 15. Also, girls matured pretty fast at that time, and so asking whether the Prophet (SAW) followed the injunctions of Islam is needless. Aisha indeed was mature before the Prophet(SAW) had sex with her.

Another reason why christians have a problem with such practice is that their religio is based on consensus and not the REVEALED WORD OF GOD. How can you explain forbidding homosexualism in the past, and then in one epiphanic moment, it is legal in christianity in this age? Or the belief in the death penalty and it's subsequent abolishing in this time? Mlks-Baby said Jesus confirmed the law, and that christinaity recognised the laws of the land. I digested this, and then came to the conclusion that if say in US, they decide like they have that abortion, homosexuality, fornication, is legal, then by electing representatives whose parties support some of these provisions, then christianity does infact allow them because cultures have evolved. So, christianity is not prepared to live by the laws of Moses (ASW), but instead supports a system that allows man tinker with these laws to suit his whims and caprices. On the contrary, ISLAM REAffirms the laws given to Moses(ASW), and that is why today christians consider it a violent religion, because it has refused to allow maning play with the laws of God. For as long as there are Muslims, they Sharia' ah Law shall be used to govern man because it's God's legislation. If anyone has a problem with stoning to death, cutting of the hands, etc, then he should know that he secretly supports a contravention of God's law in the Bible and the Quran.

Belloti,

Please note that it is not unusual to see christians do such, especially when they are boxed into a corner, so for this reason, pardon  Davidlan- it's a classic quintessential  case of the hypocrisy which I discerned from most of them who claim peace, but actually are agent provocateurs. He can say as he chooses and believe in whatever truth he chooses to, but a certain reality awaits him and his ilk. IT's only a matter of time.

Abdul fata

Wait a go!!! YOU SEEM TO be specialised in comparison. It's good you quoted those verses you did, but I dare warn you that instead of respond to them, you will observe an escapist tendency in the responses by those who hold on to strictly dogma, and refuse to open their minds. SO, it will be rather expected to see them relapse to how violnt Muhammed (SAW) or Islam is.

I was surprised to see that even the bible (that is whatever part of it that is still credible) sanctions the exhortations and prayer for Muhammed (SAW) and Abraham. In the past, mlks_baby would have everyone believe it is "necromancy", and the bible forbids it. Thanks for that expose.

I must also advice you to tread carefully because subtle personal attacks are also a trick employed to get you off track and allow them to avoid the contentious issue and instead look for appelations that support their stereotypes. IT WOULD NOT BE UNUSUAL to see statements such as, stop using invectives, or thank you for being peaceful, as f to reinforce their believe that Muslims are unduely aggressive. BE PREPAred for all those.

Meanwhile I wish you best of luck in trying to convince some of them that indeed Islam is from God. It is no mean task especially in Nigeria, but Allah's word which he has sent forth will definitely be fulfilled.

Ma Salam

@ Syrup

He was both. A messenger and a Prophet.

LOL Allonym. I guess you are right. It's just that I sometimes wonder how people could be so blind to see, so dumb to hear and so stupid to discern, inspite of their God given gifts.

@ Logical

When christians quote some rather unsavoury aspects of the pratice of Islam, they choose to see those actions as sanctioned by the Quran, but when christians commit the same crime, they are excused as not being good christians. This is hypocrisy of the highest order. Who carried out the slave trade? Who dropped the first Atom bomb on other humans? Who carried out the much celebrated holocaust? And the crusades? WHo is killing Palestines everyday to perpetuate the Jews' land grabbing thirst?

And as a muslim, I would NOT allow a christian to tell me what is right or wrong. I only judge by what God says is legislation. And if they would prefer to continue in their rebelliousness against God, by such actions as ordination of gay priests, marrying homosexuals, preaching a pacifism that's hardly ever practised by the preachers, claiming all the time that Jesus was peaceful, the Bible is peaceful, but we hardly ever see such peaceful disposition even amongst the christian leaders as exemplified by Pat Robertson in his caling for the assasination of another country's president, then, I cannot but conclude that the concept of their belief is hypocritical. Even christians are the ones that carry out pre-emptive strikes against their supposed enemies, not even waiting for the aggressor to show his first card. Thus they become the aggressor themselves by claiming clairvoyance or ability to read the intentions of other people. So, I say unto DavidLan, Gwaine and others, remove the log in your eyes before removing the speck in others eyes

I however would not judge them because that's something that's the exclusive prerogative and preserve of God alone. As for the supposedly violent disposition of Islam, I unequivocally state that I submit totally to Islam, so long as I follow all the rules of engagement in Islam, I am not an aggressor, and I only seek to preserve my identity, I do not care if you call me violent. So, in effect, if someone slaps me, and the person has the propensity to take forgiveness as a sign of weakness, I would rather be unpretentious and slap the person back than turn the other side.

Logical,
I miss you, where have you been?

@ Gwaine

I would kindly request that you share your notes with me too if you would rather not share it on this thread. Thanks

Thumbs up alarinjo!!