₦airaland Forum

badttrader:
I don't mean to blame the dead oo. But i believe every man's dignity should be respected. I will not tolerate any non-christian that comes along to tell me trash about my God or my mode of worship. And i will not say bad things about theirs. Shikena!

What exactly did the woman say that was trash to your God and mode of worship so much so that she deserved to be murdered?

Damalex4luv:
You can judge Buhari from now till next year but to me he couldn't have address the issue much better this.The death of the woman is very unfortunate and I pray that she rest in the peace of the most high. this issue is a wake up call to all and sundry concerning how we manage issues, because left to me the woman could have let the sleeping dog lie by allowing those Hausa guys to do there prayer that won't even last up to 5mins and leave in peace. Hausa people are the most dangerous people in this country especially the uneducated ones because they don't value there own lifes talkless of other peoples life, you can call the Yoruba race a coward race but it's not cowardice because a Yoruba woman/man knows how to tolerate other people and in that instance would have allowed the Hausa guys to do there prayers in peace even if he/she happens to be a Bishop or Pastor God does not even ask us to judge for him. we can never fight for God and that's the more reason why I don't judge people or argue about religion. I can argue on politics but when it comes to religion you will never find me there.

So now, asking someone respectfully not to use the entrance of your shop as a prayer ground in the future is invitation to be hacked and murdered in cold blood. And we as human-beings can't debate about religious ideas because the perpetrators are unreasonable and uncivilized and they don't need a reason to murder you, so don't give them one? I pity the world your unborn kids will live in with such views

Omotayor123:
I didn't expect less from the wailers... They are quick to show their Ignorance And Stvpidity

Abeg, if we don't tolerate each other, how can we live in peace
We should learn to respect one another.

Tell that to the victim's family and husband who missed death by a hair's breath

omoyemirally:
Some ppu major problem is buhari. Dey use every opportunity dey get to insult him. What else do u expect him to say? Bad belle ppu full dis Nigeria ooo and dats y we are not progressing. You av spoken well jare my president.

Wailers are free to cry.

When idiots murder others in the name of their prophet, the president alludes it to respect. You weren't there, I wasn't there and none of us knows what happened. What we do know is that muslim mobs murdered a christian woman on the notion that she blasphemed against their prophet. Such will continue to happen until non muslims realize that they are not considered as equals and Islamic law deals with non-muslim differently than it deals with muslims. That is why such will continue to happen

Sweetlemon:
People just like twisting this man's words. When he said people should respect others faith he was also referring to the killers who couldn't respect the victim's faith. It's a two way thing and the respect should be mutual.

Perhaps you didn't get the full details of the story. The faith in question here wasn't the victim's faith as she wasn't murdered because she told them not to blasphame against her beliefs or faith. The faith that was "offended" here was the murderer's faith; hence the mention of faith by the president. We know that faith to be Islam

CAPTIVATOR:
okay, did Jesus knew the day and hour that the world will end ?

Yes. I base my answer on Matthew 28:18

And Jesus came and said to them, “All AUTHORITY in HEAVEN and on EARTH has been given to me. He said this after his resurrection

CAPTIVATOR:
dont be scared okay, calm down .... you only said Jesus knew his death and ressurection e.tc , you said nothin regarding this.

so I await ur response: did Jesus knew the day and time of the end ?

Scared of who? You! . I answered this question. When Jesus made the statement, he didn't know the day and time. I went ahead and addressed it here for you https://www.nairaland.com/2720878/jehovahs-witnesses-17-facts-people/81#46284881

CAPTIVATOR:
eeyah, next time when you do a google search and verses like this are presented to you.. dig deeper to avoid been trashed.

before Jesus died sef , u can tell me omniscience was attributed to him , afterall the disciples said as did peter from which u draw ur conclusion:

" Now we know that you know all things, and don't need for anyone to question you. By this we believe that you came forth from God." John 16:30 ( confirm! this was before Jesus died )

now if u take the apostles statement as doctrine, then are you now telling me Jesus lied when he said he didnt Know whereas apostles said he knows all ?

I wasn't drawing a conclusion - I was presenting text that stated Jesus knew all things. You presented text that stated He didn't know all things. I did get my response from online; it's called research so go easy on the arrogance. However, I made it clear that:

It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience was attributed to Jesus. I was answering the person who asked, if Jesus knew everything and I presented one evidence as stated in the Bible.

The difference between our doctrines or statements is what I have stated and answered earlier. In Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 = It is stated clearly that only the Father in heaven knows. These words were spoken when Jesus was a man, as a man, He restricted himself of some of His define attributes as mentioned in Philippians 2:6–8.

After his resurrection, He took on His full deity including divine knowledge. You can confirm that when he said Matthew 28:18 = And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. He even went further in Acts 1:7. He repeats the truth that the disciples would not be told the time of His appearing, but He did not exclude His own knowledge.

That is my doctrine which is biblical

CAPTIVATOR:
lol, I checked and he was right ... the same expression brought forth with labor pains was used for earth at psalm 90:2 which we all agree means the earth was create, so I dont know why we cant admit same at proverb 8:23,24

I have addressed this already. The manuscript never used the word CREATE Bros. You simpletons are brained washed with JW doctribe

CAPTIVATOR:
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God "Rev 3:14

Revelation 3:14 declares: "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.’" Using these words, Jehovah’s Witnesses claim Jesus to be the first creation of Almighty God and therefore, not God. The only problem here is the actual text. The word translated "beginning" (Gk. arche) here actually means "source." In other words, it means "beginning" as in the first cause, not in the sense of being the "first effect." Arche is used as such elsewhere in the book of Revelation. In chapter 21, verse 6, Almighty God says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end . . ." Do we want to say God was created because arche is used to describe him? By no means! Understood properly, Revelation 3:14 reveals Jesus to be the source of God’s creation—God himself. This fits perfectly with John’s christological declaration in John 1:1-3: the Word created "all things . . . and without him was made nothing that was made." If the Word was created, he would have had to create himself, which is absurd.

goodnews201668:
Why would i continue this discussion when you have deny what the bible said? Maybe you will soon tell us that Jesus created the father instead.
Revelations 3:14 is not talking about source of creation, its talking about the beginning of creation. We will continue when you are honest

Revelation 3:14 declares: "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.’" Using these words, Jehovah’s Witnesses claim Jesus to be the first creation of Almighty God and therefore, not God. The only problem here is the actual text. The word translated "beginning" (Gk. arche) here actually means "source." In other words, it means "beginning" as in the first cause, not in the sense of being the "first effect." Arche is used as such elsewhere in the book of Revelation. In chapter 21, verse 6, Almighty God says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end . . ." Do we want to say God was created because arche is used to describe him? By no means! Understood properly, Revelation 3:14 reveals Jesus to be the source of God’s creation—God himself. This fits perfectly with John’s christological declaration in John 1:1-3: the Word created "all things . . . and without him was made nothing that was made." If the Word was created, he would have had to create himself, which is absurd.

Me Deny the Bible? The Bible has made it clear who Jesus is. Let us not use doctrine to challenge Doctrine. Let us use scripture that is clear to interpret scripture that is not clear. Revelation is a very deep book and one can't grasp it's meaning easily. So, let's put revelation on hold for the sake of debate. I will like you to explain these to me:

1. John 20:28 = And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Here you have Thomas who is a jew, who knows that the Lord God is one. Why would Thomas address Jesus as God? Mind you, this is not a sign of respect; this is a sign of worship to the reference to someone mighty.
2. John 5:18 = Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.. Here is another time the jews tried to kill Jesus; why - the reason is stated clearly, Jesus told them that He and God the Father was equal. This is a direct statement coming from Jesus own mouth. How can you explain this?
3. Philippians 2:6-10 = Verse 6 nails it right on the head. It said - Jesus who being in the nature/form of God - the verse claims direct equality of Jesus as God. Paul of course was a jew and knew what that meant. If you read the rest of the verses, it explained when Jesus was a man, he succumbed himself as a man. That is what you heretics JW don't get.

So, do me a favor and explain these clear passages I have mentioned and tell me what Jesus, the jews and Paul was claiming?

Jozzy4:
Greek Wisdom in Prov 8:22 LXX (italics added - Brenton LXX in English): “The Lord made (ekitse) me the beginning of his ways for his works.

check strongs for that greek word ekitse, it means create. thats Septuagint for you.

You are dishonest - the Septuagint Translation there was MADE, not CREATE. The verse is interpreted as The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.. It is talking about the eternity of wisdom and not the origination or bringing into existence of wisdom. This is some of the dishonesty you guys throw around that is really shallow and most times you catch the un-informed with it.

CAPTIVATOR:
okay, did Jesus knew the day and hour that the world will end ?

I have addressed this question already

goodnews201668:
And what can you say about revelations 3:14?

Very simple: Revelation 3:14 is saying that Jesus was the source of all created things. Jesus Christ was not the beginning of God's creation, but rather He was the One in whom all creation had its beginning

What can you say about:

1. Revelation 1:11 and Isaiah 44:6
2. Revelation 22:13

I am interested in your answers

Jozzy4:
when it said all things, it doesn't include the Father who created him - Rev 3:14, 1 Cor 15:27

Revelation 3:14 is saying that Jesus was the source of all created things. Jesus Christ was not the beginning of God's creation, but rather He was the One in whom all creation had its beginning. The Bible has made it CLEAR that He created EVERYTHING - every single thing.

You on the other hand want to dispute what EVERYTHING means.

Jozzy4:
Proverb 8:22 said create. check the meaning of that hebrew word, infact the RSV quoted in that article admits same. even the greek septuagint says CREATE. . u cant fight the truth

Can you please show us where the septuagint said CREATE? I am not arguing that RSV said create or not. The point was simple, the verse was talking about Wisdom and not Jesus. But most importantly, God existed eternally and He used Wisdom and that is what Proverbs 8:22 was referring to.

Jozzy4:
lol, you are not different from the guy that wrote that article in that link. he quotes the RSV where it states at Prov 8:22 that Wisdom is created. didnt he ?

the next thing he did was start somersaulting trying to explain how the expression brought forth with labour pains doesnt mean Create. whereas this same expression was used for the Earth at psalm 90:2 , am sure u will agree that means Create EXACT Same expression ... at that point u should recognize you re just an hypocrite blinded by Trinity.

Again, I can't argue with you. Your stupidity is alarming but even more dis-honest and very shallow .

Jozzy4:
trash, who has comprehension problem if not you .

" The text is obviously speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom, i.e. Yahweh got it by begetting or birthing it in order to use it to create everything. We know that it is figurative since Yahweh doesn't literally give birth in labor pains. "

open your eyes, he claims figurative not for wisdom but for the expression brought forth with labor pains .

Dude - I can't argue with you when it comes to grammar and comprehension. You have successfully made yourself look stupid.

Jozzy4:
Did Jesus know the time of the end of the world ?

Nope - in His human form, He didn't know the time. Also, there are Biblical references that states Jesus knew ALL things. We have it in John 21:17:

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep

Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.

Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said that the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience was attributed to Jesus

Jozzy4:
" Solomon is taking an impersonal attribute of God and personifying it " ... link.

Then you not only having a reading but also a comprehension problem. The author categorically stated that Wisdom is used in a figurative manner. Did you or did you not read that?

Jozzy4:
the link maintains that the verse is speaking of literal wisdom, so that means Yahweh was a time dull and without wisdom ?

Stop being shallow minded. The link is claiming God's eternal attribute of Wisdom

Jozzy4:
stop displaying ignorance here

even phony johnw74 knows proverb 8: 22-30 is talking about Jesus

Then you don't know what textual interpretation is. I honestly think JW and muslims are more closely related in theology than even Christians. Read Proverbs 8 starting with verse 1 - the speaker is identified; it says:

Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?

If that is not clear, read verse 12:

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.

You can continue reading Proverbs 8 and you will see that Solomon is taking an impersonal attribute of God and personifying it, a common literary feature of Wisdom literature. The reason why Solomon personified Wisdom as a woman is because the Hebrew word for it, hokmah, is feminine in gender.

The text is obviously speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom, i.e. Yahweh got it by begetting or birthing it in order to use it to create everything. We know that it is figurative since Yahweh doesn't literally give birth in labor pains.

Another typical example in Proverbs is here:

Proverbs 3:13-20 = "Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gets understanding, for the gain from it is better than gain from silver and its profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy. The LORD BY WISDOM founded the earth; BY UNDERSTANDING he established the heavens; BY HIS KNOWLEDGE the deeps broke forth, and the clouds drop down the dew"

David, in the Psalms, wrote that God created everything that has been made in Wisdom:

Psalm 104:1-24 = "He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills; they give drink to every beast of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst. Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; they sing among the branches. From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. The trees of the LORD are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted. In them the birds build their nests; the stork has her home in the fir trees. The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers. He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about. The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. When the sun rises, they steal away and lie down in their dens. Man goes out to his work and to his labor until the evening. O LORD, how manifold are your works! IN WISDOM HAVE YOU MADE THEM ALL; the earth is full of your creatures."

The fact that Wisdom was used by God to create every created thing shows that Wisdom itself is not created since it existed before creation. That is what Proverbs 8:22 was talking about. Please read the Bible for yourself without depending on Watch tower magazines to interpret it.

God bless you

Jozzy4:
Lol, he never ask u dis Sir.

He said , did Jesus knew the end of the conclusion of things ?

Of what things? - you have to be specific. Please be definite and specific so that your question can be addressed

Barristter07:
alexis

The context associate his been Firstborn with CREATION, not just firstborn. And Rev 3:14 supports this truth , so also proverb 8:22. Where Jesus is said to be formed by God

why is the Father NEVER addressed as firstborn of all creation ?

Let us try and educate you a bit. Indoctrination can be a hard thing to shake off. The phrase, "firstborn of all creation," is not dealing with time but status and position. It does not mean that Jesus is the first created thing. It means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important. Read Hebrews 1:15-17 closely especially verse 16.

Jesus cannot be the first created thing because the Bible says in verse 16 that He created all things. Of course, God is not created, so when it is referring to all things being created by Jesus, we must conclude that He is divine, God manifested in the flesh when He was on earth. Naturally, this would mean that He is the preeminent one. This is the teaching that JW has issue with even though it is stated in the Bible, both yours and ours.

JW also claim that it was Jehovah that gave Jesus the power to create all things. Such doctrine can easily be refuted. In (Isaiah 44:24), it says: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the[b] maker of all things[/b], stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.

Here we see Jehovah stating clearly that He is the maker of all things. Basically, everything was created by Him. In Hebrews 1:16 = it says that it was Jesus that created all things; basically saying Jesus Christ is the maker of all things. As if that wasn't enough - In John 1:3 = It says it was Jesus that made/created everything and there was nothing that was made without Him.

The question then is: How can Jesus be created if He created all things. Please remember that ALL encompasses EVERYTHING and there is no exclusion. If the Bible wanted to be clear that Jesus created only certain things and not ALL things, it would have stated it. We use scripture that speaks authoritatively to interpret scripture that is not very clear. Can you please explain why Jesus is the creator and maker of ALL things that exist yet at the same time He was created. Also, the Bible never mentions Jesus as the master builder - it clearly said that through them NOTHING existed without him.

Regarding Proverbs 8:22, can you please show us where it stated that it was Jesus. Thanks

ummtaqiya:
I have just been reading the posts of brother Suhaib and his replier. I am a female muslim convert and I just wanted to re-assure brother Suhaib that what he is trying to remind the replier of is one of the reasons I converted to Islam alhamdullilah. I also wanted to urge the replier to stop looking at this discussion as a contest and realize that brother Suhaib has not spoken once of his own lips but Jesus and the bible's lips only therefore the replier is really having an argument with Jesus and the bible and hence brother Suhaib's eminent composure which is one of the most apparent features and differences between a muslim and non muslim man.

Thanks for your sentiments but you or the poster haven't provided any historical proof of how Jesus became a muslim. A good example is yourself, you are a muslim convert - how did you become a muslim. I am certain you weren't born a muslim but at one point DECIDED to become one.

That is the premise here: To become a Muslim, you must recite the Shahada! The Bible, which predated the Quran and Hadith by over 600 years never recorded Jesus or any prophet as reciting the Shahada. Can you enlighten us with historical references and proof beyond reasonable doubt that Jesus was a muslim?

hmazuji:
[size=14pt]

why is everyone here missing the point ?

there are some excellent points in these arguments. on both sides.

fact is, jesus christ was a muslim; he obeyed the will of God. that's all that means. can a jew be a christian? can a jew be a muslim? can a christian be a jew? they're all the same religion. why would God create three different religions if (He) wants us to worship (Him), and that's all that (He) wants ?

another fact is that jesus was relentless concerning the misuse of dogma. he told the pharisees they were hypocrites. and who were the pharisees exactly ? they are the leaders of the church; the ones responsible for creating and enforcing the dogma.

isn't anyone familiar with the parable of the good samaritan ?
the point of that parable is that the samaritan wasn't a jew, nor a christian, nor a muslim, but he obeyed the will of God / Allah.

are we going to love one another, or are we going to use dogma for a reason to hate one another? that's the question you have to ask yourself.

love one another, and everything that God has entrusted to us - this earth. that's our responsibility, and to do otherwise is to be a servant of the devil / satan.

i want to be a servant of God / Allah. i pray every day for God / Allah to teach me how to think, show me what to do, and tell me what to say.

peace,
hamid mazuji

[/size]

What makes one a muslim? To be a muslim, you recite the Shahada! There was no Shahada when Jesus was born. Mohammad was born 600 years later. The logic that everyone is somehow born a muslim without even realizing it doesn't make historical sense and is an insult to Islam and muslims that support such views.

abdullahi4allah:
“And I will pray
the Father, and
He will give you
another Helper,
that He may abide
with you forever
(John 14:16).”

Let me guess, the comforter is Mohammed?

queenhalimah:
are u kidding open ur eyes u so called christian its true dat truth is always bitter

AND I MUST WARN YOU . . . DO NOT GO AHEAD AND ASK THE THREAD TO BE DELETED SHOULD YOU RUN INTO TROUBLE.

Wetin this one dey talk about?

goodnews201668:
Your statement has said it all, the father is higher in position which means they aren't one person or three in one as you guys always want us to believe. But Jesus was created check your bible well. Besides like i said earlier its not about Christ's nature, bible clearly shows that Jesus exists in Gods form.

JW teaches Jesus was created. You refer to Colossians 1:15 because of the word "first-born". Paul use of the word "first-born" was to show pre-eminence. First born doesn't mean first created. You guys do this because it is consistent with your theological presupposition that Jesus is a created thing.

A simple example is used in Psalm 89:20, 27 - it says "20 . I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him. 27. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth". The question then is - was David the first-born king. As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

Scripture best interprets Scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created as the Jehovah's Witnesses say it means here. "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things. The Jehovah's Witnesses should consider this when they examine Col. 1:15. They should also abandon the Watchtower which guides them in their thinking and believing.

Read the Bible and stop depending on theology from some old men in New York that you don't even know by name

CAPTIVATOR:
this was why I quote philipians 2:6 again. the word is FORM not nature.

form /fɔːm/
noun
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.
2. a particular way in which a thing exists or appears.

1) so pls, what is the Form of God ?


------

about nature
nature /ˈneɪtʃə/
noun
1. the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
2. the basic or inherent features, character, or qualities of something.

going with the bold, one basic feature of God is that he knows the end of the conclusion of things, did Jesus know this ?

Jesus knew he was going to die and He knew that he would resurrect on the 3rd day. So, he knew the conclusion of his crucifixion, his death and resurrection.

Sarang:
Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term “archangel” in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.

While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel.
In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God’s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with “an archangel’s voice.” Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.

After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a “superior position” in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for “those who are dead in union with Christ” to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued “a commanding call,” this time “with an archangel’s voice.” It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”

Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.


I hope that this answers you.

That still doesn't answer the question. And it is not reasonable to conclude Jesus is Michael because there is no where in scripture it says so. What you have done so far is allude that Jesus is Michael. So, I will ask again, CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW US IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT STATES THAT JESUS IS MICHAEL OR MICHAEL IS JESUS AND/OR THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON.

However, scripture has made it abundantly clear that:

1. Revelation 17:14 = These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. This verse in Revelation clearly shows that Jesus Christ is the "Lord of lords and King of Kings" and is far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come (Ephesians 1:21)

2. And unlike Michael who did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words but said, "The Lord rebuke you" in Jude verse 9. It shows Michael didn't have authority over the devil. Now read Matthew 4:10 and compare that with Jude 9. Jesus rebuked and commanded satan with authority. Please explain why that is.

3. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, you misread the verse to mean that Jesus is an archangel - na wa oh. The verse is very simple and it is describing Jesus coming with the sound of an arch-angel. It means like God;s trumpet will herald the coming of the Lord and not that the Lord is an arch-angel.

None of the verses you attempted to use as proof-texts even comes close to stating that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. In fact, scripture clearly teaches the opposite: namely, that the Son of God is SUPERIOR to the angels. The entire first chapter of Hebrews us devoted to this theme. I will add emphasis for your attention:

[b]Hebrews 1:1-9:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.[/b]

Verses 4 and 5 clearly states the difference in name, position and authority between Jesus the Christ and any other angel including Michael. Verse 8 even goes forward to decree Jesus as God, but that is another topic for another time

Another point is that angels throughout the Bible has consistently refused worship, that goes for all angels including archangel Michael. Please refer to Revelation 22:8,9. However, Hebrews 1:6 clearly states without any guessing or alluding that Jesus is to be worshipped by all Angels. It didn't say Michael should be worship because it makes no sense for angels to worship angels. Only God is to be worshipped and Christians view Jesus as God which coherently interprets the verse.

However, the JW Bible has changed Hebrews 1:6 in 1970 from "worship him" to "do obeisance to him". This is part of JW consistent campaign to eliminate from their Bible all references to the deity of Christ. It is God that will judge your leaders for manipulating, adding and subtracting from His Holy word.

I will ask again - CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT CLEARLY STATES THAT JESUS IS ARCHANGEL MICHAEL. I have used scripture to show you where it clearly states that Jesus is not Michael and Michael is not Jesus. All you have done is copied and pasted what is on jw.org about this subject. I eagerly await your response

I have a question and I will appreciate if any JW in the house can verify or confirm. Is it correct to state that JW doctrine teaches Jesus is the same as arch angel Michael?