₦airaland Forum

Luckianti:
Thats what you get when you give a baboon or monkey a gun. RIP to the dead

These "baboons" and "monkeys" as you call them will continue to murder innocent people until we decide to do something about it. Personally, I can't live in 9ja without owning a gun

Josphine4good:
this is a result of getting married to a lunatic husband

Majority of men don't assault or beat women. So hating all men is somewhat sexist and short-sighted.

Is it me or Mutah does sound very similar to prostitution?

akocce:
Rude Attitude Of Airtel Customer Service Staff In Makurdi, Benue State

I don't know if anybody in makurdi has gone through the harrowing experience that Airtel Nigeria has put me through in the past week... I bought an airtel sim from their retail people who go about with these "Droids" (as they call them), I paid for the sim and he registered it. I then did the blackberry complete monthly subscription on the said sim, only for the sim to stop working the next day...

I called 111 and the customer care guy said the sim wasn't registered. The next day, I went to their office in Makurdi where I was told that there wasn't anything that could be done other than to do a "welcome back" for the sim. After the welcome back, the subscription did not come up...

I went back to complain, and the customer care lady I met told me that there was nothing she could do. When I persisted, she said that she doesn't "eat MB" and that I was disturbing her. Some people who came to buy their lines left when they overheard me complaining. Then she was like I had made people who wanted to patronize them leave... I left the office empty-handed, And up till now, I have not heard from airtel despite calling them like three times!

I believe that customers should b treated with more respect than this

Write a nice letter to their legal department. Alternatively, ask for your money back and go somewhere else. If they refuse to pay you - start litigation about the incident.

abduljabbar4:
The first post after urs insulted Islam. Can u now see what I mean? You christians have no respect for other religions but u want people to respect urs that's impossible

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and the million and one faiths and religions in the world are all ideas. Ideas are either good or bad, can build or can destroy, are stupid or are wise.

The important thing is to be able to talk about these ideas. Sometimes, talking about these ideas can offend people. Sometimes, the line of reasoning become very thin when topics about our beliefs are ridiculed and laughed at. Notwithstanding, these are all ideas.

We should be able to discuss ideas and criticize them no matter the topic or person(s) at hand. Jesus can be ridiculed and criticized for all I care; Mohammed can be ridiculed and criticized as well. At the end of the day, does their teachings make us better people or not. The ideas from Islam or Christianity, does it make us better people. That is the silver lining.

What is shocking is what the poster stated about what happens to a muslim or non-muslim if he or she "defames" the prophet - EXECUTION!. The poster forgets that Sharia law applies to only Muslims. The idea that someone should be murdered because of their views is exactly what we are talking about

If every muslim in the world "understood" jihad to mean what you explained it to be, I believe the Middle East and Muslims will leave in a very peaceful world. Unfortunately, that is not the reality.

When we interpret the Quran and Hadith, we should try to understand what the author mean. Basically, what was the author trying to convey when he said what he said. That involves a lot of theology and scholastic exercise.

When we turn to Islam’s theological sources and historical writings (Qur’an, Hadith, Sira, and Tafsir), we find that there are three stages in the call to Jihad, depending on the status of Muslims in a society.

STAGE ONE—When Muslims are completely outnumbered and can’t possibly win a physical confrontation with unbelievers, they are to live in peace with non-Muslims and preach a message of tolerance. We see an example of this stage when Muhammad and his followers were a persecuted minority in Mecca. Since the Muslims were entirely outnumbered, the revelations Muhammad received during this stage (e.g. “You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion”) called for religious tolerance and proclaimed a future punishment (rather than a worldly punishment) for unbelievers.

STAGE TWO—When there are enough Muslims and resources to defend the Islamic community, Muslims are called to engage in defensive Jihad. Thus, when Muhammad had formed alliances with various groups outside Mecca and the Muslim community had become large enough to begin fighting, Muhammad received Qur’an 22:39-40:

Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them; Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: our Lord is Allah. . . .

Although Muslims in the West often pretend that Islam only allows defensive fighting, later revelations show otherwise.

STAGE THREE—When Muslims establish a majority and achieve political power in an area, they are commanded to engage in offensive Jihad. Hence, once Mecca and Arabia were under Muhammad’s control, he received the call the fight all unbelievers. In Surah 9:29, we read:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Notice that this verse doesn’t order Muslims to fight oppressors, but to fight those who don’t believe in Islam (including the “People of the Book”—Jews and Christians).

Not surprisingly, we find similar commands in Islam’s most trusted collections of ahadith (traditions containing Muhammad’s teachings).

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.”

Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

Here again, the criterion for fighting people is that the people believe something other than Islam.

It’s clear, then, that when Muslims rose to power, peaceful verses of the Qur’an were abrogated by verses commanding Muslims to fight people based on their beliefs. Islam’s greatest scholars acknowledge this. For instance, Ibn Kathir (Islam’s greatest commentator on the Qur’an) sums up Stage Three as follows: “Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the Jizyah, they should be fought till they are killed.”

WHEN MUSLIMS REACH STAGE THREE

Abrogation also accounts for shifting attitudes regarding Jews and Christians in the Qur’an. While Muslims are to be friendly to Jews and Christians when the former are outnumbered, the Islamic position changes when Muslims reach Stage Three, at which point Christians and Jews are to recognize their inferior status and pay the Jizyah (a payment made to Muslims in exchange for not being killed by them). Consider some of Muhammad’s later teachings about Christians and Jews:

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103—Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”

Needless to say, these teachings can hardly be considered peaceful or tolerant.

So again, you need to understand and research Islam to know what it's teachings are and what the prophet meant and what he did. I hope that helps

dolphinheart:
This is part of your post where soul is mentioned.



The statement brought about the question : what is the soul? Or what do you think the soul is.
Note : the question is not directly related to the post where you mentioned the word "soul", therefore your response need not be based on the post I quoted above but rather it should be based on the question I asked. So there is no need for context.

The point I was making was that the verse referred to the body and not something else i.e. soul/spirit. To your question - are you asking for he definition of what a soul is as compared to that of a physical body?

dolphinheart:
You can see that I initially said I'm not intruding into ur discussion , I was only interested when you mentioned soul. That's y I asked your own view on what the soul is. Someone is already discussing the issue of spirit with you.

Can you quote where I used it so that I can explain better in context

JMAN05:
Let's take it one after the other. There are some scriptural proves to this stand, and I wish u will see how the points play out. I didn't follow the discussion from the beginning, but am interested in this ur question.

Why did Jesus say he was not a spirit? Because he was not. A spirit do not possess flesh and bones as he does. They are invisible creatures while Jesus was visible. So he was not lying, he told them the form they saw, not a spirit.

However, Jesus appearances, which was different from what he did previously, shows that he was no longer the same as before, he rather wish to bring introduce this bit by bit. Luke 24:31

You and I are on the same page. JW claimed He was/is a Spirit creature. And the same question you just answered, none of them has answered it. As to the fact why He was not the same as before, I addressed that in my earlier post.

dolphinheart:
At the moment, I do not want to intrude in ur discussion, but ill like to ask: using scripture as backup, pls what is the soul.?

What has that got to do with the discussion? I asked a simple question. If Jesus was a spirit or a spirit creature as JW claim He was; why did e explicitly say He wasn't a Spirit. I have used scripture in context stating a historical fact that Jesus is not and was not a Spirit. I am asking JW here to explain why Jesus would claim He is not a Spirit. Was Jesus lying?

Ganoderma

First of all, when you say "incarnated" what do you mean?

Angels don't come to us as the savior of the world or represent God as His incarnate; that is what I mean

Secondly, I dont remember saying Jesus was an angel. Angels are Spirits and so is Jesus.

I asked you, do you believe Jesus is an angel of some sort. Jehovah Witnesses confirm that Jesus is an Arch Angel = http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/. This will throw light unto this discussion because Christians don't believe that Jesus is an angel or arch angel. There is no where in the Bible, Jesus is called an angel

Thirdly, I related other passages of the bible to support the fact that when the need arises angels and spirits can materialize and carry out some activities normal humans do.

I don't disagree with this and I agreed. Angels can manifest as humans when required and perform actions that humans do but Angels where never born with a human body. Angels don't resurrected, angels don't come back from the dead. These things happen only in human bodies which don't apply to Angels.

Fourthly, you accused me of not using the context of the bible. Please can you enlighten me or what the context of the passage in question is and how I have misapplied that context?

Luke 24:39 = Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Here is Jesus saying that he is not a spirit. From this passage, where did you gather that He is a Spirit. That is what I mean when you read a passage in context. Read the entire chapter and tell me where it suggest that Jesus rose as a Spirit creature and compare that to verse 39 where Jesus himself said He is not a Spirit or Angel or Spirit creature

Fifth, if the temple Jesus was talking was indeed his physical body then how do you explain what Jesus said in that same book of John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” If Jesus was raised in the same physical body that he was killed in would that not mean that he had taken back the same flesh he said he would give for the life of the world. So what then would have been the basis for the Faith in Christ?

The expression "flesh and blood" occurs only five times in the New Testament. We need to define our definition of its meaning from the overall teachings. If we examine the following references we see the writers are often speaking of "flesh and blood" as being synonymous with "fallen man", just as it is of the physical body. If you substitute the words "fallen man" (unregenerate) in the place of "flesh and blood" we can understand better what the writer is saying:

Sometimes the word for flesh (sarx) is used literally (as in Heb.10:20) Sometimes it is used in a figurative manner as in Rom.8:9 (you are not in the flesh but the Spirit). Meaning the new nature rules over the old.

Matthew 16:13-17: "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father who is in heaven." Is this speaking of the physical flesh, or the corrupt nature of man not revealing Christ's identity to Peter? It came from God who is Spirit.

Galatians 1:16: Straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood.... “ Obviously Paul was not referring to the physical flesh but rather to corrupt and sinful man.

Ephesians 6:12: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood. "A case can be made either way in the interpretation of this text. For instance, because Christians do not physically wrestle with their opposition. Paul is not be referring to the physical body, we don't wrestle against sinful corrupt nature of other men but the spiritual forces of evil influencing him.

Hebrews 2:14:, "For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. . . "Here the text does refer to the physical flesh but Jesus did not take on Himself a sinful nature. It means he became a human having the same physical flesh and blood minus the sin nature. As Rom.8:3 says Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh", in other words he was fully man, he looked like any other but without the sin. The word for flesh used here refers to mankind in their fallen state (the body of flesh).

When speaking of sinful man who consists of flesh and blood he cannot enter the kingdom of God without a new birth. [b]John.3:3-5 Jesus explains that a fallen man cannot enter God's kingdom without being spiritually regenerated, he will not even see the kingdom of God.

I Corinthians 15:50 Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. "The Apostle Paul turns to the subject of transformation of the body not the soul. The body that we now possess is not suitable for the heavenly kingdom. It is corrupted, subject to disease, and decays. Only that which is pure, incorruptible and immortal can enter heaven, this is why there must be a change. Paul is answering the question of what kind of "body" believers will receive in the resurrection (vs. 35). It will be a "spiritual body" (vs. 44). A "spiritual body" must be defined by the ONLY example we have of one, the first fruits from the dead, the body of Jesus. He described his body as one of flesh and bone, (possibly bloodless) (Lk.24:39). The resurrection body has no need of blood as its life because its nature will not be the same. Presently the blood nourishes the cells that are in need of constant repair but food and water to supply nourishment will no longer be needed. No cells will be in need of repair in our glorified bodies so we will no longer need blood. As it states in Revelation we will neither hunger or thirst. We can eat but not from necessity. We will still have our body and its functions but obviously some things will change.

In verses 51-52, Paul then proceeds to tell us a mystery which involves the change that all believers will go through, The corruptible will put on in-corruption, and mortality will become immortality. We need to have a complete change to make us suitable for our new environment. This implies a conversion of our same physical bodies to a body with heavenly qualities. Nature does not know extinction but transformation, as science says energy cannot be destroyed but transformed.

Paul states that their dead body is sown and will be resurrected to new life. God has it become a new body (1Cor.15:38). The old body puts on (is swallowed up) by the new body it is transformed into something permanent.

The Jehovah's Witnesses make the same mistake the disciples did even with the Bible in their hands to correct them. Jesus' grave was empty with only the linens left. There are no Scriptures used to validate a spirit resurrection rather than a bodily one. Nowhere does Jesus say I'm spirit instead he makes it clear he is flesh and bone. Some of the discrepancies that people often use to support this position are found in the Emmaus road encounter where the disciples did not recognize Jesus. We need to realize that they were in a state of distress, shock, fear, and unbelief of His resurrection. This became apparent after he revealed himself to them. Luke 24:16 in the beginning of his encounter tells us that “their eyes were restrained so they did not know Him.” This possibly could refer to the fact that Jesus was not revealing himself to them because of their unbelief even after they were testified to His resurrection by the women. So he was trying to draw them into faith, as he states in v. 25. “O foolish ones and slow of heart to believe in all the prophets have spoken.” In verses 30-31 He blessed and broke bread with them, and then “their eyes were opened and they knew Him.” This event opened their eyes. Jesus broke bread many times with them, at the feeding of the 5,000 he broke bread in prayer. The last night they spent with Jesus he broke bread and gave the true meaning of the Passover. V.35 when they arrived with the disciples they told the story of his resurrection and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. Whether this is a natural or supernatural explanation for their inability to recognize Him, one thing is for sure, it was not because He was a spirit or raised in a completely different body.

The Jehovah's Witnesses make the same mistake that Jesus corrected the disciples on. In Luke 24:39 The Disciples are terrified thinking they saw a Ghost. Jesus calms them down and said, “I am not a spirit but I have flesh and bone (not blood, so here is the answer to flesh and blood not able to enter heaven). One thing that is clear is that it was not because he did not have a body. He had the same scars in His hands and feet proving His fulfillment of the prophecy that He would raise up His body from the grave (John 2:19-22). A spirit does not scar. He shows them the scars saying it is I, myself. He then eats with them to prove it. Once again He repeats what was said on the Emaus road Luke 24:44. Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Vs.45-46 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day” Just as Paul states in 1 Cor.15:1-4 as the scripture says.

Also resurrection accounts show that people were raised in their physical bodies. Two examples are Lazarus (Luke 11), and Jairus' daughter. Jesus also rose from the dead in the flesh (Luke 24:39; Acts 2:31; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Numerous times they were told to eat proving it was a physical resurrection and that the body needed immediate nourishment.

Sixth, that the body of Jesus was not present in the tomb does not prove anything. If Jesus was raised in the flesh as you claim, what then happened to that flesh when he finally ascended into heaven?

Actually it does - The Bible say when some of the disciples went to the tomb, His body wasn't there. If indeed Jesus was raised as a Spirit, wouldn't His body be there?

Seventh, Flesh and Blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom. This one really cracks me up. I am sure even you must agree that this point is completely useless.

Dude, read my response above

I am seriously beginning to ask whether I am actually arguing with someone who has a sound knowledge of the Bible or just somebody who is looking up scriptures just so he could win an argument with a JW. Some of your arguments lacks sound reasoning and logic.

Sound reasoning and logic! Are you kidding me? - Here is a person who claims Jesus is a Spirit even after Jesus Himself confirming He is not a Spirit. If you use reason and logic, you will realize that we interpret scripture based on what is revealed as compared to what is inferred.

Let me ask you a very important question. Why was it that it had to be Jesus who would give his life? Why couldn't somebody else have done it? Can you even try to answer the question?

I can only answer that question if you tell me who Jesus is . Please respond to the points I raised.

Also, you still keep ignoring my question - what did Jesus tell his disciples that He is not a Spirit if infact He was as you claim?

Also, I forgot to ask. Is Jesus an Angel? Does JW believe Jesus is an angel?

Ganoderma:
First of all Jesus was not resurrected as Flesh and Blood. He was resurrected in the Spirit. I know you once attacked that by saying "In the Spirit" and not "As a Spirit". But the bible did mention that he was put to death "In the Flesh" and not "As a Flesh". So what does that mean?

Secondly Jesus never said he was flesh and blood. What he did say in Luke 24:39 was "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

They saw him that he had flesh and bones (not blood). Pretty much the same way Lot saw the angels before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. And let us not forget Jacob. He wrestled with an angel. Could he have done that if the angel did not materialize. Did the fact that the angel materialized stop him from being an angel? They manifested in the flesh. Jesus manifested in the Flesh to his disciples so that his disciples could believe that it was indeed him and that had risen. It particularly proved helpful for Thomas when he manifested himself complete with his death wounds.

First of all angels are not incarnated and Jesus is not an angel. He was born of a woman in human form, with flesh and bones and blood, angels are not born of women.

So, why did Jesus say He wasn't a Spirit if indeed He was as you claim and as JW claim? Jesus was lying? Think about it - you claim He is a Spirit and changed temporarily to human to convince His disciples. Why didn't He tell them that He was a Spirit - why would Jesus confuse His disciples and confuse us?

The fact is that you guys don't use the context of the passage to interpret scripture is the source of confusion. You are ignoring Jesus own words from the bible itself stating FIRMLY that he wasn't a spirit when He was with His disciples. You leave the passage and use examples in Genesis to Internet an event that happened in Luke when the passage in Luke made it clear what the context was. This is what indoctrination does - you ignore the facts and go along with what you want.

For scriptural proof, consider this passage:

In John 2:19-22 before the crucifixion Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up . . . He was speaking of the temple of His physical body." Since Jesus said He would raise the same body He died in, He didn't say He will raise as a spirit body or a spirit. He made it clear that it will be His existing physical body.

As to your question why Jesus said "Flesh and Bones" and not "Flesh and Blood"; let us use scripture to answer:

Jesus said that He had "flesh and bones" not "flesh and blood." This is important because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). The blood of Jesus was the sacrifice for sin (Rom. 5:9). It is the blood that cleanses us of our sin (Heb. 9:22).

Another question - if Jesus was raised as a Spirit and not in His physical body. What happened to His body. When His disciples go to the tomb, why wasn't it there?

Ganoderma:
I have nothing more to say to you.

Since you know more about the Bible than I do, please tell us why Jesus would tell His disciples that he is not a spirit but He is flesh and blood. I asked you that question and you haven't answered

Ganoderma

Your questions reveals how very little you know about the bible.

Really? I guess it's only JW who have special revelation to understand the Bible. I will indulge you

You asked "Does a spirit eat food?" I will answer that question with the Bible. The same bible you claim that we turn upside down. Let me see how you will defend that fact in this case. I will even quote from KJV since you say NWT is JW Bible.

It was a simple question I asked - Does a spirit eat food? You would have answered yes or no but instead, you went off on a rant about how little I know about the Bible. No problem, I will indulge you.

Genesis 18:1-8 says:

I am happy you raised this question because I hoped you would raise it . Since you know the Bible and I know little about it; can you please tell me who the Bible is referring to in Verse 1: And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

In verse 2, it says: And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground

In verse 1 it speaks of "the Lord", in verse 2, it speaks of "3 men". Can you reconcile who is the Bible referring to in verse 1 and who is the Bible referring to in verse 2. Also, in verse 8 toward the end, it says - "and they did eat". Can you tell me who ate here? The Lord, the 3 men - who actually was eating?

In verse 9 (even though you didn't bring it up) - They asked Abraham where was his wife? So, was it "the Lord" that was asking or was it the "3 men" that was asking? Or who did the asking - can you please let me know.

Genesis 19:1-3:

These verses are quite clear and confirm that two angels visited Lot. Please read verse 5 - And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them

One would assume from the passage and the context that these angels appeared as men because they were addressed as men. Angels are ministering spirits i.e. Hebrews 1:14 who can take angelic forms as in Luke 2:13 & Matthew 28:2-4 or take on human forms as in Genesis 19 Hebrews 13:2 and when they are in human form; they will do some of the things that humans can do such as eat.

The bible even goes further to suggest that angels can have children with women from Genesis 6:1-4. Since angels are spirits, how can they mate with humans to have children? From scripture, it is clear - they can take on forms of humans with flesh and blood.

What do you have to say to that or am I quoting out of context. Now think for a moment Can humans see spirits?

I never said you are quoting out of context. My question to you was: - why would Jesus tell His disciples that He is not a Spirit when indeed He was a Spirit as you claim? He explicitly told them that it was Him in flesh and blood and not a Spirit or spirit creature. Did Jesus lie?

A spirit materialized in a human form is only temporary isn't it?

And there is evidence to point to the fact that Jesus did not always take up the same physical appearance every-time he appeared to his disciples. (Luke 24:30, 31, 35; John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7.) In those cited cases his disciples only recognized him by what he said and did.

In the case where He said He wasn't a Spirit. He explicitly said He wasn't a Spirit. Why would you claim He was a spirit. Have we known Jesus to be a liar? And you didn't answer this question I asked. Jesus said He wasn't a Spirit - how can you reconcile that?

Ganoderma:
So what historical account have I or We deliberately misrepresented?

Did you not say Jesus was raised "As a Spirit". It is on JW official website that Jesus was raised as a spirit creature: http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/jesus-body/

My question is - why would Jesus tell His disciples that He is not a Spirit when indeed He was a Spirit as you claim? He explicitly told them that it was Him and not a Spirit or spirit creature. Did Jesus lie? Also, does a spirit eat food?

Ganoderma:
Its really is awesome that people take the time to do deep and careful study of JW teachings just so they could conjour baseless reversal arguments. I wish they would do such deep and careful research on the whole Bible.
If they did they would actually see that the whole Bible itself has a bigger picture and that everything in the bible is in one way or the other connected to that big picture. This obsession with JWs is a futile endeavor that would not only distract you but make you miss the whole point of the message we preach.

For God's sake JW's are not the only set of people in this world that believe in a doctrine.

Doctrines are ideas and we all know ideas are either true or false; either good or bad. Ideas can be secular or religious. There is nothing wrong with discussing these ideas and this medium is a good one to do such.

Dude, I don't care what you preach but I do care if you attempt to deliberately misrepresent historical accounts.

Ganoderma

1 Peter 3:18 is pretty clear. Jesus was put to death in the Flesh and made alive in the spirit.

Please read carefully, the scripture said he was made alive "In the Spirit" and not made alive "As a Spirit" or made alive "A Spirit". The term "in the Spirit" does not mean "a spirit". The apostle John was "in the spirit" in Rev. 1:10. Romans 8:9 tells us that the whole congregation was "in the Spirit." Does this mean John and the early church had become spirits and lost their fleshly bodies? No! Read Romans 8:11, it makes it clear.

This is one of the heresy of Jehovah Witnesses supplied from your elders in the US and you can't ask God Almighty to show you the truth.

If your claim is that Jesus was resurrected in flesh, then I am very curious to know how you would explain what happened in Luke 24:15-30.

What happened in the passage you are referring to? I fail to see the connection, care to explain

The only reason people think JW's turn the bible upside down is because they cannot comprehend how we could possibly have such depth of knowledge about the things written in the bible. And because we use various bible verses with so much dexterity, it leaves them flustered.

The people you leave flustered are people that don't read their Bible, I mean really research the Bible and read it. Deep and careful study of JW teachings on Jesus will show you that JW is not different from most of the 1001 heresies that have been trying to populate God's word for centuries. It's old wine in a new bottle tactic. You guys can get away with such claims only with uninformed people.

A lot of our teachings are based on the bible and because they are mostly in direct opposite of what most are groomed to beleive, the only logical reaction is to reject our teachings.

Alot of what you believe is true and a lot is still not true. We judge you by what is not true. Most importantly, it is the claim of your founders that have disturbed me. Your founders have claimed so many things that never came to pass. The Bible said when a prophet who claim he is from God makes a prophecy and that prophecy doesn't come true - that is how you know that prophet is a liar and not from God.

The rejection comes not necessarily because people think what we are saying is wrong. It comes because they infact see the truth about what we teach but cannot bring themselves to accept it as the truth.

This statement will fly with the ignorant, not with the informed.

You would never ever find a JW that would argue bible truths with you without quoting from it. Yet, the same people who claim that JW's turn the bible upside down never ever quote a single scripture to back up their reasons for inferring.

Really, all that I have been quoting is from the Quran?

vosquare:


Cc:lalasticlala

No one is asking her to cook and clean or wash. She should just pay someone else to do it and we will be happy

makavele:
show me where it is said in the Bible. . that "you must not smoke, or you must not do drugs" >?

You need to learn how to debate. One can't argue from silence which is what you are doing. The Bible never mentioned Nigeria but we know Nigeria exist. The Bible never mentioned America but we know America exist. The Bible never mentioned the Internet but we know the Internet exist. The Bible never mentioned iPhone but we know Apple makes iPhone. So, stop arguing from silence because it's a very weak position you are taking.

The Bible never mentioned sniffing cocaine or heroine but we know those things are bad for you. However, the Bible clearly states that Jesus resurrected in a bodily form and he wasn't a ghost or spirit - THAT THE BIBLE CONFIRMED. So, twisting it to satisfy your Jehocah Witness theology doesn't work. The Bible is the Bible

makavele:
From the same link you quoted:

After his resurrection, Jesus also assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done.

There is no where in the Bible it said Jesus assumed human form temporarily. Why do you guys keep twisting the Bible to suit your teachings. The fact is that Jesus was never a spirit after his resurrection but you guys claimed he was.

Luke 24:39 = Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

That is Jesus telling Thomas he wasn't a spirit. He ate and talked with his disciples and multiple witnesses and yet you guys claimed he was a spirit. It's some of the heresy that only God can forgive.

Febuhari:
@Alexis you are one hell of a guy! Never seen a brilliant arguments like these my whole life.

Thanks mate - I hate dishonesty and exaggeration. When people don't use their brains to think for themselves and accept dogma; it vexes me.

Jessicha:
You are very WRONG @ No. 3 , Jehovah Almighty God can not die [habakuk 1:12]. But the person spoken of in Rev 1:17 said he was dead . And Yes , there is a big difference in how Jehovah used first and the last nd how Jesus used it . Example : will it be wise to say an only child is Almighty God simply because he introduce himself saying " I am the first and the last " child ? A wise person will consider the context of discusion

How JEHOVAH GOD used " first nd the last" ' I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me' Isa 44:6 . His Been Almighty


How Jesus His Son used " first nd last" ' I am the first and the last , and the living one , and I became dead , but Look! I am living forever and ever, ' Rev 1:17 . He used it to describe his unique resurection , he is the first to be raised from dead and live forever , and the last to be raised from dead by his God And Father .(galatians 1:1) Yes , jesus will be the one to resurect others from grave - john 5:28,29 , no wonder he said " I have the keys of death and the grave " rev 1:18

You are confusing yourself. You agreed that the First and the Last or the Apha and Omega is Jehovah Almighty God right. I agree with you, I am not denying that. The question then is - how come the First and last said He was dead? You agreed that only Jehovah can have these titles, why would Jesus even share these titles with Jehovah the Almighty?

dolphinheart

Have you tried to see if there are other translations that use "a god"? .
Even if you have not, dnt worry, me and you will discuss john 1:1 shortly.(maybe during The day)

There are no other translations apart from Jehovah witness translation

On john 5:7, Bro if you had researched on the manuscripts , you would have known why most translation removed or did not put the words you quoted in that verse .

Please refer me to the manuscript you are referring to. Again, I have studied most of them and we have access to most of them

And I did tell you that the authority and power to forgive sins, which is inherent in the authority to judge, was giving to jesus by God, his father. And if something was giving to. Someone, it means that at a time he did not have such authority. This authority was later extented to the disciples and it also did not make them God. If you say only God can forgive, are the disciples God too?
On the issue of worshipped, (even though I do not subscribe to that word, ill use it here). Bro, you read the scriptures, you read why jesus is worshipped, your read why he was exalted above his compannions, he was worshipped cus the angels where told to do so by someone superior to jesus. As long as jesus is not that superior God, jesus is not the almighty God.

You keep missing my point. If you are a CEO of a company and your brother is a CEO both of you will be given the respect and privileges of a CEO. My point is that Jesus was God in the flesh. It's clear from scripture Colossians 2:9 = For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Is that what I said ? Absolutely no, I never said jesus said " my lord and my god, read my post again before you accuse me of dishonesty, and after you have done so, ill like you to retract ur accusation.

My bad - what did you say? What did Thomas mean when he said "My Lord and My God". Thomas called Jesus God with a capital G - why did thomas do this?

Pls show me which verse(s) you are reffering to . And while doing that pls always not, that jesus is always subjected to his God, the father, the almighty God.

Here are the verses I am referring to:

1. Revelation 21:5-7: 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Here we see the identification that Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God right?

2. Revelation 22:13 = I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Here we see Jehovah as being called the first and the last - is that correct?

3. Revelation 1:17 = When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last.

Here we see Jehovah called the first and the last again. So far, do you agree that it is Jehovah that is being referenced?

makavele:
literally, if he was resurrected as a spirit, then how come Mary was able to recognize him . .
or even the apostles and even Thomas . . afterall, he spent a little time on earth after resurrection before ascending to heaven ?
have u been reading Mills n Boons ?

Here is Jehovah witness stance since you said Jesus wasn't a spirit. Jehovah witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit:

http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/jesus-body/

Later, una go claim otherwise

makavele:
Jehovah's witness have never changed their stance on blood transfusion . . As a matter of fact, I have a close relation who refused and went ahead to take blood and she is suffering the consequence today, medically.
Yes only 144,000 will ascend to heaven to reign as priests . . and yes, the Bible even said it ..
12,000 from the 12 tribes . . . and it even mentioned al the tribes, 12,000 x 12 = 144000
i will get the verses for you when I am home . . thank you

They have Bros. Please read for yourself: http://www.watchman.org/articles/jehovahs-witnesses/new-watchtower-blood-transfusion-policy/

jorez:
.please my brother could you read colossian 1:13-20 please.look out verse 15.Jesus had a begining he is the first to be created but the almighty does not that set the records straight

I have read it and responded to you. First born doesn't mean first created. It is only in JW translation that you guys have changed it. You guys translators have been anonymous and you have refused to give up their names for avoidance of asking questions. Can you show me any translation or the original Hebrew and Greek translation prior to your translation where first-born is translated to mean first created?

Your beliefs contradict scripture so you guys have made a translation that suits what you believe . For example: The New World Translation renders the Greek term word staurós ("cross" as "torture stake" because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. The New World Translation does not translate the words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as "hell” because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in hell. The NWT gives the translation "presence" instead of “coming” for the Greek word parousia because Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s

Na only God will forgive such deceit

jorez:
please read colossians 1:13-20. Especially verse 15.it show that Jesus was craeted he had a begining,but no where in the bible is GOD described like that

Of course you will claim Jesus is created, here you have it in your publications:

The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ was the first created being of Jehovah God. Jehovah God created Jesus as a divine-like spirit at some point in ancient, pre-creation time. "This means that he was created before all the other spirit sons of God, and that he is the only one who was directly created by God" (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth [Live] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1982], p. 58).

You have a reading problem - firstborn doesn't mean first-created. The Watchtower Society also errs in its interpretation of Colossians 1:15-20. They interpret the word "firstborn" in verse 15 to mean "first-created." However, the firstborn (prototokos) principle in Hebrew culture refers to privilege and superiority, not to priority in time. Also, the Watchtower Society has presumptuously added to its translation of verses 16-20 by parenthetically inserting "other" in several places where no word appears in the Greek text. This unwarranted addition is made so the text will conform to the Watchtower Society's theological position on Christ. Una no tire, una go they change and change Bible just to make it suit what you want

You guys can change it all you want, it goes to show the judgement that God will deliver to those who change his Word

Jessicha:
its a bitter truth , just swallow it . Jesus have a God he is subjected to

" but when all things have been subjected to him, then the son himself will also subject himself to the one who subject all things to him " 1 cor 15:28

I.e " he hands over the kingdom to HIS GOD ND FATHER" 1 Cor 15: 24 .

.....

Rev 1:8 is Jehovah God .

Verse 4,5 differentiate Jehovah Almighty GOD from Jesus the faithful and true witness .

Thanks for indulging me, So you confirmed that Revelation 1:8 is referring to Jehovah and you are right, no doubt about that. Please indulge me.

1. Revelation 21:5-7: 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Here we see the identification that Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God right?

2. Revelation 22:13 = I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Here we see Jehovah as being called the first and the last - is that correct?

3. Revelation 1:17 = When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last.

Here we see Jehovah called the first and the last again. So far, do you agree that it is Jehovah that is being referenced?

dolphinheart

There are a lot of translations and scholars that have a contrary view, they view and translated part of that verse to "the word was a god". These translations goes along with the fact that jesus is not the father and the father is God Almighty.

You are not being honest here, which other translation apart from NWT? If he doubt, go to the earliest sources or even the earliest manuscripts to confirm for yourself. The problem then becomes, why don't JW translate other parts of the Bible to be the same word. The New World Translation of the JW says: "And the Word was a god" contrary to all other translations I have ever seen. Can you list the other translations apart from New World Translation please. Your officials say that this translation is justified because in the original Greek the word "God" is without the article. It is without the article but it is clear that this is not their real reason because verses 6, 12 and 13 of the same first chapter of John contain similar usages of the word 'God", all without the article. You guys translated all of these correctly with a capital "G" and without inserting "a". The only instances I have found in which you guys translate "God" with a small "g" are when "God" refers to Christ. It is certainly not done consistently whenever the Greek word for "God" lacks the article. (See the examples in John 3:21, 8:54, 9:16, 9:33). In the case of John 1:1-3, to avoid a translation that correctly identifies Christ as God, the New World Translation ends up attributing the creation of all things to "a god"

There are many manuscripts , listing them here will derail the thread. Pls( and I believe you are sincere in ur questions) put 1 john 5:7 on a search engine and see the various commentary, translations and views on that verse. Once you have done that, pls quote me and let's discuss.

List the ones that changed or inserted the additional comments like you claimed. I have researched most of these manuscripts as I used to be a Muslim and very interested in what you are saying.

Good Bro, the only God that holds that position is not jesus.
Even the "worship" that you say jesus commands was given to him by God.
Even the authority given to jesus to judge and forgives sin was given to him by God.
God, his father is superior to him!

You are missing what I am saying. Only God can forgive sins and only God can be worshiped. Both of these characteristics belong to Jesus as well. Jesus can forgive sins, that is why we can give him such a title as God. Only Jesus demanded worship just as God.

Thomas, realising that it was really jesus made that exclamation.(that exclamation has been explained on these thread) But jesus had ealier told mary to tell them that he has not ascended to his God, which is also thomas' God.

So, it was Jesus that said - "My Lord and My God". Why are you being dishonest? Jesus called himself my Lord and my God. Is that what the verse said? Cha

And he is always talking to himself abi, taking things from himself to do things right?

In the Bible, who is addressed as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end? Is that Jehovah or Jesus?