₦airaland Forum

Samantha125:
Well, since you can't give scientific evidence to support your claims, then this discussion is over.

It's like you are a novice in these things.
Do you have any science text that tells you how creation started? Yes or no?

If you can't respond, then forget it.

Do you know what they call strict scientism? That's where you are erroneously falling into. Stick to your deities and leave this unfamiliar terrain.

Samantha125:
You're not answering my question... YES OR NO!!!

You can't get a yes or no answer nah.
Science doesn't have explanations for origin of life and all creation. Science can discuss perpetuation of life or it's evolution or it's re-creation.

If science doesn't know, science cannot say "yes" or "no"..

Samantha125:
That's your delulu mind talking.

These things are discussed at the highest levels of human scholarships. If you don't know, just leave it for those people to discuss. To you it is delulu. To me God is Obijuru.

Samantha125:
Do you have scientific evidence to support your claims?

Scientific evidence? Lol! Well, scientists says WE DON'T KNOW. Why are you certain when scientists say they don't know?

And you know science doesn't even speak. It is human scientists who speak all the time. They don't scientifically know how creation started but they can analysis how nature reproduces and re-creates or evolves after the INITIAL CREATION.

By the way science doesn't discuss the creator God and the Bible God Jehovah. Those discussions are done in the Bible or in philosophy or religion. Almost everyone knows that.

Samantha125:
You guys are just traditionalists disguising as Christians like many Africans do, we see this all the time, the sooner you accept it, them better.

Perhaps my debate with you all along is clear now: What you have been struggling to identify as traditionalists perhaps are good and responsible Christians who live in their bonafide communities and portray God well.

In that case, you are also a Christian.

If I knew your challenge was the definition of Christianity and what they do, this debate would have ended since.

I am happy to announce to you that you are a Christian and I am a traditional Christian.

Is that okay for you?

Samantha125:
It's only in your brainwashed delulu head whereby the Christian god made all those things when nature was the one that made them, and where did I say you must leave your communities?

Nature didn't create nature. That's an established fact.

Chance didn't create things. Also established.

Samantha125:
I only see a confused soul living in denial...

Now that you are seeing the light, it's a bit confusing to you abi? Lol

Samantha125:
You're right, no idol made them, including Jehovah as he's also an idol...

Nature made them, hence you're free to use them to form your own Christian traditions instead of mimicking others.

God Jehovah made the universe and is supernatural.
Every other thing is made and is part of nature and therefore are creatures.

God is the creator. We all are creatures.
God is supernatural. We are not.
God's existence is necessary. Ours is contingent.

Nature didn't create nature. Nature can only reproduce nature already created by God who sits at the end of the chain if you keep moving backwards to timelessness

Samantha125:
You didn't turn anything against me... You can use those products to form your own Christian traditions instead mimicking the ways of traditionalists.

Because you can't be copying the same people that you deem as diabolical.

Lol!

Please if anyone had attacked your belief, go after that person and leave me alone. I don't come online to attack anyone's worldview. But I can comfortably discuss my beliefs and my worldview and my community traditions.

Again, Christians won't leave any grounds for you because the Christian God made all those things. You are the one to leave them for us actually.

No community member is more authentic than the other because of religious diversity. Everyone can lay claim to their community because we are born there. That's the basis.

Samantha125:
Community traditions should be practiced by traditionalists since you guys would be denigrating them for staying true to their traditional ways... If people from different tribes with different beliefs can coexist within the same communities, then it means you guys can do the same... True Christians follow Christian traditions, else you're just a traditionalist disguising as a Christian.

In my community,we do everything together aside from the sacrifices "traditionalis" do. They know our position and they respect that.
Most of the leadership of the community are Christians who are trusted to lead well.

We don't go around fighting our brothers and sisters. Everyone respect the other.

When issues come up, we settle them as a community and forge ahead.

In 2026 we are looking for money and development.
Christians are freely practicing their religion and others theirs. No one has time to go looking around what the other is doing.

Samantha125:
You're free to use those kola nuts, powders, goats, or etc for different purposes, use them to form your own Christian traditions instead of using them to mimick the ways of traditionalists as it only makes you to appear as hypocrites.

All of them were created by the Christian God Jehovah. No idol made them and so cannot claim them. This is my position.

Samantha125:
So basically you're admitting to being a traditionalist in disguise...

I am basically telling you that I am a bonafide Christian and hail from a community of traditions where I also play great roles to play my part according to human standards and expectations and biblical expectations of what it means to be a community member.

Samantha125:
Apart from civil marriage which is a legal marriage, there's no other marriage that's not spiritual.

And if you call slaughtering a cow at a wedding for food and worshipping the God that you believe in in your own personal space without hurting others fetish, then it means Christians do practice fetishism as well because they'd be slaughtering cows for consumption at their weddings and worshipping that idol they call Jesus.

This doesn't make sense at all.
Slaughtering cows become idol worship? As how now?

Who are the idols that are trying to claim ownership of kolanuts, goats, sheep, rams, powders, forests, drinks, palm oil, biter kolas, clothing items etc? Idols we know the woods they were cut out from?

If an idol is cut out from nature, it is at best part of creation and can never lay claim to the Creator status.

They never created these items and don't have any right or claim to them aside from the ones humans attributed to them.

Only 1 creator God who made the heavens and earth has claim to these things.

Adjust your argument and come back pls

Samantha125:
I never said you mustn't use them for different purposes, what I'm against is you cherry picking some traditional practices to suite your narratives while you're busy demonizing traditionalists... Desist from everything that involves tradition and embrace your Christianity wholeheartedly.

You can use all those things, but for different purposes without conflicting your values.

Then you have no point. If this is your position, you have simply been spamming us and strwamanning is worth baseless arguments.

I turned your logic against you and you saw it crumbling .

If you want to debate Christians who attack you over your choice of deity, come out plain and discuss that. Stop jumping around traditional marriages to sneak in your ulterior motive against Christianity.

Focus on the propriety and otherwise of traditional marriage by Christians. That is what you started with. If you had talked about anyone attacking you for your religious worldview, I won't comment and won't disturb you. But if you spam and strawman us, we will point that out to you.

Samantha125:
I was born and raised in a traditionalist home whereby there were also many traditionalists in our community as well, so I know what tradition is... Form your own Christian traditions and leave African traditions for African traditionalists.

And I don't hate Christians or any other religious denomination, I have some Christian family members and friends that I love, but what I hate is the hypocrisy that you guys display and your level of denigration towards traditionalists when majority of them are not even evil.

You already convinced us here you don't understand what people's traditions are. You want to squeeze us into your myopic mold of tradition and Christianity. It doesn't work that way.

Your idols didn't create eggs, kolanuts, powders, goats, rams, trees, fruits, vegetables,dresses etc used to appese them. Why would arrogate exclusive ownership and patency of these items to them?

In Igboland we tell every deity the trees they were cut from when they disturb us. We know all of these things. Please stop struggling to be more Catholic than the Pope. It won't work. It's not working

Samantha125:
Only an Igbo traditionalist has the authority to speak on behalf of the Igbo culture as they're being led by the spirit of their ancestors, not a confused Christian with double standards.

You say you don't worship idols, but go ahead and make a contradictory statement by admitting to worship Jesus as if he's not a idol.

I am deeply rooted in all Igbo traditions more than many who even claim the "traditionalist' titles. I am more qualified than you to discuss Igbo traditions. I lived through it and still active in my community.

Perhaps you have weak and ignorant christians who fed you lies about what Christianity is.

A Christian is a HUMAN BEING IN A COMMUNITY who follows Jesus Christ but is still a human living amongst their communities. Why are you crying over this? Is it too hard to understand?

Samantha125:
I am discussing reasonably, you're the confused one with double standards here... What's so hard in using the bible as Christians to welcome your visitors instead of the kola nut?

No one is asking you to erase anything or to pack out of your community, all I'm asking of you is to practice what you preach as Christians, leave African traditions for African traditionalists and live your lives in accordance to the Bible.

Category errors.
Go and learn your basics.
Christian come from communities and are integral parts of their communities. You obviously are confused about community traditions.

Samantha125:
According to him, breaking of the Kola nut during visitations is a sign of recognising the ancestors and he was wearing a red cap.

Christians change traditions just so they could be cherry picking and exposing their conflicting values... Why not use the bible to welcome your visitors instead?

Let's use your logic: they also offer different kinds of food, money, palm oil, drinks, clothing items etc, wooden work, kolanut etc to various deities. Does that mean all of these should not be used by anyone else?
Does that also imply that those deities made the items I listed and so should have exclusive right to their usage?

You can see that your logic fails woefully.

Go back and do a rework and come back with a better argument.

Christians are part of a community and will remain members of their communities even after repentance. No one is more bonafide in a community than a Christian. No one.

Samantha125:
So you wrote all this book to defend your hypocrisy? Don't tell me about that same Bible that is being used to brainwash and manipulate you guys, Jesus is an idol and traditional marriage is as spiritual as Christian marriage is... If you're not a traditionalist, you shouldn't have any business practicing anything related to tradition because you guys are the same people going around calling well-meaning traditionalists all sorts of derogatory names and endangering their lives... A pastor can spend a whole 30 minutes during a church sermon crucifying them for just existing while you guys would be cheering for him.

You maintain self-image of opposing traditionalists while your actions expose conflicting values.

If you don't know what tradition is, it leads to this kind of fatal and infantile error you display here.

I am forced to think you have developed so much hatred for Christians and Christianity that you fail to apply simple logic in your discuss.

Samantha125:
According to him, breaking of the Kola nut during visitations is a sign of recognising the ancestors and he was wearing a red cap.

Christians change traditions just so they could be cherry picking and exposing their conflicting values... Why not use the bible to welcome your visitors instead?

"According to him...." Is he an authority for all Igbo people? Are you an expert on Igbo culture and traditions? Do you have a PHD on kolanut breaking?

Igbos serve their visitors kolanut, garden egg/alfafa, groundnut, yams, nzube (white powder inside a wooden container), rub powder on hands or on necks to welcome visitors or celebrate. It is a sign of peace and a display of acceptance. You can extend it to humans and to deities. That is the tradition.

Igbos wear certain dresses for celebrations . Those dresses are also used during Christian celebrations and for deities. It is because it is their culture and tradition.

You are manipulating your points and erroneously thinking the Igbo culture was predominantly idol worship. No. Our African traditions weren't ALL idol worship. If you have this wrong notion, it will make you think that any small shift or mix is countering idol worship. All nations on earth have mixed their traditions, dropped some and picked some, including yours. And that is how life evolves.

A Christian simply believes in Jesus Christ but still the same human in their locality. Repentance does more for ones spiritual life than eating of kolanut and dressing

Samantha125:
Why are you still talking? We're done here.

All because I refused to redefine tradition and fetism for you.
Stop dabbling into something you have little knowledge about.

Samantha125:
Cherry picking as usual to expose your conflicting values.

If Kola nut is just a fruit, then the bible is just a book too since you don't even consider it prestigious enough to be using it to welcome visitors.

False equivalence. Discuss reasonably please.

You are committing category error. The bible and the kolanut are not used for same thing. You can as well tell Christians to erase their memories and pack out of their communities for you.

Samantha125:
According to him, breaking of the Kola nut during visitations is a sign of recognising the ancestors and he was wearing a red cap.

Christians change traditions just so they could be cherry picking and exposing their conflicting values... Why not use the bible to welcome your visitors instead?

That's not enough. You could have asked Christians to actually move out of their communities, erase all their history and their memories and die immediately after repentance. Will that be okay for you?

This is the problem. You don't even understand Christianity and think that after repentance a Christian changes physically, historically etc. That is a childish way of thinking.

When Jesus preached to the Jews, he met them within their culture and traditions and asked them for a change of heart that will lead them to abolish all that opposes God. That is how it works.

Christians are humans in a society and will perpetuate their cultures and traditions unless anyone is opposing God.

Samantha125:
Jesus is an idol, making you guys also idol worshippers...🤣🤣🤣... Him being white doesn't make any difference...😃😃😃... Many of our forefathers were killed and forced to worship him when the colonisers arrived in Africa.

And how is it that not every traditional practice is religious and spiritually binding but every Christianity practice is religious and spiritually binding? make that make sense to me.

"Jesus is an idol, making you guys also idol worshippers...🤣🤣🤣"

Jesus is not an idol. According to the Bible, Jesus is the express image of the invisible Godhead. Anyone who wants to know what God is like will simply look at Jesus and get a bit of God

.." Him being white doesn't make any difference...😃"

The historical Jesus of Nazareth wasn't white or European. He was Jewish from the Palestine in Asia.
The gospel moved from Jerusalem to every other parts of the world. In Bible times, places like Egypt, Ethiopia did get a touch of the gospel message before some European countries.

Lord Ragnar and all his Vikings were from Europe and raided Christian communities, worshipped idols until Christianity got to them. Christianity is not native to Europe same way it wasn't native to Africans.

"Many of our forefathers were killed and forced to worship him when the colonisers arrived in Africa."

You are right about the killing of our forefathers. That is true. But what is also true is that there were genuine missionaries who came to do good in Africa. The benefits are all there for us to see. There were also the bad eggs who came solely for trade and got the support from some of our people who traded their own.

"And how is it that not every traditional practice is religious and spiritually binding but every Christianity practice is religious and spiritually binding? make that make sense to me."

Our traditions are just part of our way of living, eating, education, cooking, religion, marriages, family systems etc. Not all our traditions have spiritual connotation. Our marriages, our education, our foods, our farming, our languages etc have no deep spiritual connotation. Just basic human acts.

Also not everything in the Bible is strictly spiritual.
The Old testament had moral codes, civil codes and ceremonial codes. The civil codes were given mostly to help keep order in the society and not strictly spiritual.

Covering ones faeces after defecation will stop epidemic and may not become sin against God.

Samantha125:
There's still some spiritual significance to it, dig deeper... I once came across a video whereby one Nigerian man said something about how they use the Kola nut to recognise their ancestors... I'm sure they didn't just wake up one day and decided to use the Kola nut because it's prestigious and shows that you're the true son of the soil... Why not use the bible instead of a Kola nut as a Christian? Is the bible not prestigious enough for you guys?

Kolanut is revered by most Igbos whether Christians or non Christians. That reverence makes them to use it for special occasions like entertainment of visitors, oblations to deities, for prayers, for peace deals, etc.

The Igbos have an adage that if a deity disturbs them too much, they will point it the tree it was carved from.

Humans formed these traditions. Humans modify the traditions. Humans change the traditions. One could choose to use theirs as a form of worship at shrines. Another chooses to use theirs to entertain visitors.

Samantha125:
If you can't answer my question, then this discussion is over... You can't even backup your beliefs with facts.

I am sorry. I won't define simple terms for you. No. I won't. It's just funny that you are really struggling to understand a simple fact that a Christian belongs to a community that has her own traditions and so can do traditional marriage without interfering with their religion beliefs.

It's also interesting that you think a traditional marriage and Christianity are parallel lines. Very weird really.

All my attempts to help you failed cos you have closed off your mind on your wrong assumptions.

Samantha125:
Answer my question first.

No Ma. I don't have to be doing basic definition of tradition, culture, fetism, church wedding and traditional marriage.

Traditional marriage is marriage according to the customs or way of life of a people, Christians and skeptics inclusive. Christians are part of the communities that have their traditions and can do traditional marriage. Perhaps you are missing the point a bit

Samantha125:
What is your definition of fetishism according to your understanding?

Tell me what you think tradition is and why you keep defining marriage as tradition.

Let's take it from there

Samantha125:
How is it that traditional marriage doesn't mean religious marriage but your white wedding is religious?

If you think traditional marriage is not spiritual, then you're either in denial or just choosing to play dumb... Traditional marriage is also spiritual as it it involves the unification of both the groom and the wife's ancestors, therefore, spiritually binding them together.

And according to your understanding, what is a fetish practice?

You are struggling so hard to equate traditions with fetism and that is surprising.
The way a group of people communicate,eat, settle dowries, dress, pass on information, plan family systems, worship, educate, execute justice and morality, respect people, elect leaders etc are all forms of traditions. They don't require fetism to happen. Overtime some of the traditions overlap and change. Some drop part of the traditions and pick others which was why I requested that you look at enculturation and acculturation to see how they affect people and their traditions.

Marriages all over the world have gone through evolutions in the last 200 years and keep evolving till date. Why are you stuck on fetism?

See below definition of tradition:

an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)

I watched the nurses do this. Most husbands will feel this pain for their wives and wish they stopped having babies.

chatinent:
Christians often point to David as a man after God's own heart and the Bible as a source of objective morality. However, passages like 1 Samuel 18:25-27 feature God's chosen king collecting the severed body parts of 200 dead enemies just to pay a dowry. Not just severed parts, David mutilated and took their joysticks to the king as dowry.

How do you reconcile a holy God favoring a leader who engages in this kind of graphic warfare and humiliation?

1. Saul forced David's hand as a king would to his soldier subject. Case is on Saul and not on David. David was obeying the last order as a soldier.

2. David was also desperate to marry the King's daughter who already was in love with him. Who wouldn't want to marry the President's daughter?

3. This was a war time narrative. All the nations then do some of these things during war.

4. That all nations did and still do terrible things during war time doesn't imply God's approval. Humans in their fallen state will always choose to do good and evil sometimes.

5. God loving David isn't hinged to this act. God loved David because of his humility, deep thrust and dependence on God, ability to recognize his mistakes immediately and ask for forgiveness, his love for God etc.

5. David wasn't a saint, had his issues once in a while and was also punished by God for some of his mistakes.

1 Samuel 18:20-23, 25-29 NIV

[20] Now Saul’s daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased.

[21] “I will give her to him,” he thought, “so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him.” So Saul said to David, “Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law.”

[22] Then Saul ordered his attendants: “Speak to David privately and say, ‘Look, the king likes you, and his attendants all love you; now become his son-in-law.’ ”

[23] They repeated these words to David. But David said, “Do you think it is a small matter to become the king’s son-in-law? I’m only a poor man and little known.”

[25] Saul replied, “Say to David, ‘The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.’ ”

Saul’s plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines.

[26] When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king’s son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed,

[27] David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

[28] When Saul realized that the Lord was with David and that his daughter Michal loved David, [29] Saul became still more afraid of him, and he remained his enemy the rest of his days.

https://bible.com/bible/111/1sa.18.20-29.NIV

Kobojunkie:
1. The first verse is the most famous, which points out that the world(a figurative metonymy) is a reference to the Israelites in the context of John 3 vs 13 - 16.

Again, the notion that the YHWH OF Israel loves mankind is all created from religion.

You are wrong in those 2 points.
Religion didn't introduce God's universal love for humanity. The Bible is clear on that. All who come to God will not be rejected by him. All people everywhere who fear and acknowledge him will be saved by him.

Do you mind sharing how religion introduced God's universal love?