₦airaland Forum

Mindfulness:
I really appreciate this piece of writing. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading it a lot. It is an informative, interesting, well organized and developed piece of writing, which combines the results of a journey into the world of research with the results of a journey called human experience. Thank you!

You are welcome bro. Thank you as well.

Mindfulness:
There is one thing I do not get though. When you decided to give up Christianity, why did it automatically include the belief in God?

Well, I don't have any evidence that god(s) exist anymore so I can't believe in something whose existence I have no clue about. But if god(s) or creator(s) exist and want me to believe, then I'm all ears... it/they just need to show me evidence. It's that straightforward. What is your position? Pantheist?

Lol thanks for quoting the abridged version. That writeup was long! Don't know what I was thinking lol.
Yeah, na me write am o. Na my story. I have a strong aversion for plagiarism.

Mindfulness:
Did YOU write this beautiful piece?

DeepSight:
While that is appreciated, this is not just a matter for intellectual honesty, it is also - and more cardinally - a matter for spiritual honesty.

Spiritual honesty? I don't even know what you mean by the word "spiritual". You'll have to define such terms before using them.

DeepSight:
Have you really examined this statement carefully?
1. What exactly do you think you are?
2. Are you hidden from yourself?
3. Is there a burden of proof on yourself to reveal yourself to you?
4. If so why?

These sound like rhetorical questions. I'm not willing to engage in a public psychoanalysis of myself (maybe on a different thread, but not this one)... I however am down to have a circumscribed conversation about theism and religion.

DeepSight:
No my friend, humans are fundamentally spiritual and intuitive beings.
Look around the world and tell me where in human society you see rationality as the be all and end all.
I test you yourself to claim that your deepest desires are rational.
Are they?

I already defined what I meant by fundamentally rational. My statement is that humans are fundamentally rational & empirical at the most basic level... i.e. distinguishing between a rope and a snake, etc. I didn't say that all humans have complex levels of rationality or intellect. Please read my writings carefully before you respond.

DeepSight:
How is it a large logical leap? What are you? What causes your thoughts, your emotions, your ambitions, your ideas, your ideals, your ethics, your values, your sensitivities, your proclivities, your wonders, your dreams, your you. . . . . . .?

Ok, glad to hear that god(s) is/are the reason for your thoughts, emotions, etc. But that you guess it is so does not mean it is true. Also, you need to define this "God" that you keep referring to.

DeepSight:
Excellent - now understand carefully - There is also a preponderance of consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that life only comes from pre-existing life. Louis Pasteur yet to be dis-proven. Care to take that up? Spontaneous generation? Primordial soup? Go on, let's go there. But think carefully first.

I'm not interested in having an infinitely long debate. Even if life only comes from pre-existing life, I am not one to quickly invoke a god(s)-in-the-gaps argument as you are currently doing. I have never said on this thread that there is/are no god(s)/creator(s) yet I won't invoke god(s)-in-the-gaps arguments when I'm stumped about the philosophical meaning and origins of life. You are welcome to keep trying to convince me about this/these eternal god(s), but I'm sorry I won't be convinced based on arbitrary guesses.

Ah I no get time to dey watch video o. If you can't explain it on this thread then I may not watch it... sorry... maybe when I have time later tonight sha. But I can't guarantee it. Thanks anyways.

buggaboo:
Please watch the video. It explains my points on the other thread.

whats up?

buggaboo:
Antiparticle

Genesis 6:19-21
"19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

Read above. God told Noah to collect two of every kind of animal, even every kind of every species. He specified this by using "every kind of bird" as an example. Your reinterpretation is wishful. He meant specie not genus.

But for the sake of debate, let me temporarily concede that God meant two of every genus (not species). I'll also for the sake of debate temporarily concede that every genus came to Noah and he didn't have to capture them himself... my question is how did land animals native to the Americas cross the Atlantic or Pacific ocean to get to the middle east? How did rattlesnakes make it there? American bisons? raccoons? armadillos? etc. Please answer.

Enormous claims require enormous proof bro. This is very fundamental. The burden of proof is on you/Christians that the Noah's ark story is true, and not on non-theists to prove that it is false. So if I told you to disprove the existence of ten-headed lizards with fifteen wings and hundred legs, would you take me seriously? I bet you wouldn't. In this same way, I don't take the Noah's ark story seriously. It is implausible, period.

Richirich713:
Noah was not told to collect pairs of "millions of species". He was told to take two or seven of every KIND of animal on the earth.
U can't just assume "Kind" means "species".
It could easy refer to animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. "Kind" meaning is more likely closely to the term "genus" than the term "species"
And if the animals were being group as a genus there could have been approximately 8000 genera(plural of genus) during Noah time or if u want to include extinct genera, there would have been approximately 16,000 individual animals which had to be aboard on the ark.
Now obviously this is just an estimate.
Also God did not tell Noah to collect microorganisms, he said land animals that have the breath of life.
Also Noah didn't gather the animals.
"Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground WILL COME TO YOU to be kept alive". Genesis(6:20)
Again the burden is not on christians, if someone can't prove something it does not mean that something must be false.
It means it's unknown not false. It's only false if u prove it false. There was a time people couldn't prove Pythagoras theorem yet people didn't say it's false cuz u can't prove it, they said it's unknown.

U atheists believe there's no God but u can't prove that at all. U people believe in Charles Darwin theories, even tho he couldn't prove them.
So all I see here is double standards. U believe in things which u cannot prove yet u ask Christians why he believes in things which they cannot prove.

Thanks for the commentary bros. I understand that the extent of my knowledge is limited and I thus try to be as intellectually honest as possible.

DeepSight:
However here is the comment of yours I wanted to speak with you on. you said:
I wholly disagree with this statement of yours for these reasons:

1. When you say that you like the post which says that [I paraphrase] "God should know that the atheist is being intellectually honest" - This infers that (a) God is to be sensed by the intellect only and (b) God is of the same dimension of the intellect so as to be sensed by it in the first place. I say to you that neither are true, and both - even from either side of the theistic or atheistic divide - are logical contradictions.

Bros, if god(s) exist, the burden of proof is on it/them to reveal itself/themselves to me. The burden of proof is not on me to assign "God" to things I can't accurately perceive. Intellect is a more organized and complex form of fundamental human rationality; humans are fundamentally rational beings therefore I don't know any other foolproof way to perceive god(s). By "fundamental human rationality", I am referring to the human ability to discern truth at the most basic level; the survival of the human species when we had newly become homo sapiens hinged on our ability to fundamentally discern between things that could kill us and things that couldn't... e.g. discerning between a rope and a snake, or between a pet cat and a tiger, etc... the ability to fundamentally discern rational truths at the most basic level is one of the traits that ensured our survival as a species. I don't know any other way to discern truth outside of using both my fundamental rationality and intellect.

Outside of the rational and empirical, I don't have any other foolproof (i.e. reproducible and repeatable) way to sense the existence of god(s). Maybe you do (if so please share), but I don't. Also, yes if god(s) exist, I agree that it/they could exist outside the intellectual realm... however it is incumbent on this/these god(s) to reveal itself/themselves to me through avenues that my fundamentally empirical & rational self can discern.

DeepSight:
2. When it is said that the method or link established for communicating with God is vague - I disagree - as it is clear and rather abundantly obvious. It rests within every soul as clear as day light.

Your claim that it rests within every soul is a large logical leap. How is it clear? Based on what is it clear?

DeepSight:
3. When it is said that it lacks evidence or justification I find this statement to be such as a man who breathes air and says that there is no evidence of air.

Another logical leap. A man breathing air is not a good analogy because there is a preponderance of consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that humans breathe air. What is the consistent and reproducible and repeatable evidence that god(s) exist? Note: this evidence must not be a god-in-the-gaps extrapolation.

DeepSight:
I say that the laws of physics as we know them, and the very existence of the universe, and most importantly the existence of living things, are manifest and incontrovertible evidence of the existence of GOD.

This is a god-in-the-gaps extrapolation.

DeepSight:
In saying these things, let me clarify that I am not religious so you do not need to revert in terms of rebutting any Abrahamic or other suppositions - although it must be said that all the old traditions contain many snippets of the eternal truth.

I understand. There are too many things I don't know as well. Yet, I am not willing to throw the baby away with the bath water and say that there's nothing good about religion... as I wrote in my one of my old posts, my issue with religion is when it stunts humanity. But regardless, I have zero evidence to suggest that any religion is a pointer to the existence of true god(s). Absolutely zero evidence whatsoever.

These are my thoughts.

I'm here What's up brother?

DeepSight:
@ Antiparticle. . .
A few words please.

Are you there?

While I can understand your frustration at non-theists' assertions that Noah's flood didn't exist, I don't follow your line of argument that it must be materially disproved before it can be considered implausible.

The story of the flood is implausible because Noah supposedly collected male and female of every species on the ark. There are millions of species of animals on earth, some microscopic and some extremely large. To be objective, do you really think Noah went around the earth to collect two of every of these millions of species?

Even with all the scientists in the world today, there are still millions of animal species that we haven't discovered. How is it possible for one man, Noah, to have collected male and female of millions of species on earth? This is such an extraordinarily enormous claim that is at best fishy (trying so hard to be objective here). This is why such a story is considered false unless proved or unless a credible rational argument is presented on its behalf.

As a result, the burden of proof is on those who claim that the flood actually happened, not on those who consider it mythical.

Richirich713:
U right fossils are not proof for the flood but then again it's not proof against the flood. If atheists can't prove there was no flood they shouldn't criticize christians who believe in something they can't prove.
Atheists criticize christians for something they can't prove yet they believe in stuff they can't prove. That's just double standards.

I think you should know enough about fossils before commenting. Fossils of dead plants and animals are not evidence for a supposed biblical flood. It is only evidence that said plants and animals were buried over (by other dead plants, or animals, or any generic floods) and thereafter fossilized. Also, the biblical flood supposedly happened less than 6500 years ago, which is too short a time frame for the fossilization process to have occurred.

In addition, most of the fossils we find today were created around 300 million years ago, a time when bacteria and fungi hadn't evolved enough to be able to digest dead plants and organic matter, and as a result these buried organic matter were intact enough to fossilize over time.

If you are curious about being more informed about science and cosmology, you should watch "Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey" by Neil deGrasse Tyson. It has several extremely informative episodes. Watch it with a curious and open mind, and you would love it and learn enough to make informed comments about fossils. You could also just go read about it online. The resources are endless.

But your post sounds gleefully ignorant sha.

Richirich713:
What I said is evidence cuz if there was a flood we would expect to find billions of fossils of dead plants and animals buried and fossilized in sand, mud, and lime that were deposited rapidly by water in rock layers all over the earth which is exactly what we find.

We would also expect to find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers around the world which is also exactly what we find.

Ps I'm not saying this proves the bible flood but can be used to support it.

Lolz. According to the Old Testament, Yahweh was homicidal, infanticidal, and genocidal.

One quick and easy example is when Elisha (in the name of Yahweh) commanded bears to devour 42 kids that were teasing him for his bald head (2 Kings 2:23-25). This is a factual undeniable statement out of the Old Testament dude.

There are lots more examples of this littered all over the Old Testament. If you can't defend Yahweh's actions, at least be honest about it instead of attacking me. I know it sounds like I'm trying to insult your God, but I'm truly just making observational statements from the Old Testament.

I am only meaning to state the facts out of the Bible bro and it is undeniable. If you disagree, please defend Elisha and Yahweh's actions on the passage I quoted. That's all.

KingEbukasBlog:
@ bold -- and you wail when God did not reveal himself to you after you "truly" searched for him? Stop the prevarication and self- deception , its repugnant

@SonOfEl
Ok. You can have your god... in the same way that all the world's people have that ever lived enjoyed their hundreds of thousands of gods.

Ok. I did not cherry pick your post.

Thanks for the judgement @ "apostacy".
You literally haven't responded to why it makes sense to believe in a homicidial/genocidal/infanticidal/psychopathic Yahweh.

You also haven't argued for why you base your faith on the invented notion of Jesus' resurrection.

Also, you clearly contradicted yourself by saying that I am only non-theist to justify my apostacy even though you earlier wrote that God can choose to not reveal himself to someone seeking him. So which is it: non-theists are just bitter hence their unbelief? Or non-theists don't believe because Yahweh abdicated his supposed responsibily to reveal himself to them?

So, there you go.

PS: I understand that you may feel hurt and angry at someone challenging your deeply-held beliefs (thus the name calling), but you should calm down and critically contemplate the likelihood that Jesus never resurrected.

SonOfEl:
obviously you didn't read my post exhaustively, you just cherry picked and projected your biase.

stop trying to justify your apostacy.

you are only being bitter, and your bitterness won't change anything. God loves you, that's why you have a purpose in life, that's why you are not here by accident or coincidence.

watch the Richard Dawkins vs. John Lennox debate and learn a few things from the discussion.

quit living in denial.

@SonOfEl I applaud the efforts you likely expended on your search for God. From your write-up these three phrases resonated with me:

SonOfEl:
...the scriptures record that " the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life". this means that even theology misleads and proves nothing if God decides not to reveal anything to the researcher.

The bolded once again implies to me that a God of justice "who rewards those who diligently seek Him" does not exist.

SonOfEl:
...My point? you need faith in a higher power to discover God. to find that faith, you must acknowledge an inspired purpose.

Indeed. I solidly agree that it takes faith (without any smattering of evidence) to believe. Based on that premise I guess you would be also ok with believing without evidence that a ten-headed monster with fifteen antlers once lived and came to die for your sins and save you. But you don't believe this obviously because you think it is not plausible. Yet, you believe the story of some dude who supposedly rose from the dead (without any evidence for said resurrection) and you consider that plausible.

Unfortunately I refuse to have faith in a genocidal/infanticidal/homicidal psychopathic Yahweh. I also refuse to have faith in a Yahweh that doesn't even hold true to his own supposed standards of being just and interventionist. I refuse to have faith in a Yahweh that expects people to fight his own wars for him. Such a god would be immoral, untrustworthy, and would not be worthy of worship. Thus, my conclusion still stands.

SonOfEl:
Jesus Christ defined true love which is SACRIFICIAL. he sacrificed himself for love of humanity and the world at large. he expects us as humans to LEARN how to truly love ourselves and the epitome of love itself- the higher power called GOD.

If Jesus existed, he was not the first person to revolutionarily teach people how to love others. Also, the notion that he resurrected is an invention. I will not base my faith on the sinking sand of an invented story. If god(s) exist and he/she/it/they want me to believe, he/she/it/they know how to reach me.

Since Yahweh is "all-powerful" and "instantly heals" swollen badly twisted ankles like @KingEbukasBlog's, then it should be so easy for "Him" to show me and all the other non-theists/atheists that "He" is alive.

Please modify your post above by deleting my long post that you quoted. It occupies too much space. Thanks.

@bstringz
For me to absorb the different Bible verses that you quote, you first have to prove to me that the Bible is credible and that the Abrahamic God is real. You can't be using the Bible to convince me since I obviously and repeatedly just explained to you how I arrived at the conclusion that its claims around divinity and deity are not credible. Your sort of approach is circular and won't get a non-theist/atheist to go along with your flow.

What you need to do is stop making presuppositional statements that presume that I consider the Bible to be credible. If you make arguments that are not presuppositional, then I can follow you. But for now, I can't follow your points at all. Additionally, odds are I have already deeply studied whatever verse you will ever quote to me.

Note: I'm not saying that everything in the Bible is a lie... I am saying that its most important claims about divinity, deity, and miracles are absolutely not credible.

@bstringz
I don't owe you an explanation about my search for God bro. But let me start here.

I can tell you that I was born into a Christian family... and for the past decade and half (up until sometime within the past year) I was a very strong and genuine Christian. I really tried hard to follow God. But certain things that happened in my life and in the life of people I loved caused me to start asking critical questions a few years ago about the role of God in the empirical world. I became deeply curious about if God was indeed interventionist, if he was an active observer, or if he was just a passive observer in the world. I was deeply and genuinely Christian during this time... I spoke to other solid believers and leaders of my fellowships/church (whom I mostly still respect) about it and we would think it through together. I also read lots of books by deep-thinking Christian theologians. Sometimes I would get satisfactory answers, sometimes I wouldn't. But I didn't make a big deal of the lack of answers. I also, as you would expect of any genuine Christian, prayed a lot for God to help me work through these things.

For at least seven of the last ten years that I was a passionate Christian, I had all these doubts. Yet, they didn't change the extent of my belief in God as I had strong "unshakeable" faith. The straw that gradually began to break the camel's back was when I started doing my own readings on world history and apologetic theology over the past three years. Through these past three years I prayed and prayed that God should reveal "Himself" to me. During these years, I also started to become sensitive to the contradictions and homicidal/genocidal/infanticidal acts by God in the Bible... yet I explained them away so I could preserve my faith. I still hadn't lost my faith.

Notwithstanding, I realized that all miracles that ever happened to me or anyone I knew or heard about could not stand the test of empirical scrutiny (as a physicist/statistician/engineer, this was so easy to recognize). The notion that God answered prayers, too, failed to be true when placed beside control experiments.

One thing I also thought of a lot: if God was interventionist and if "He" performed miracles like healing @KingEbukasBlog's twisted and badly swollen ankle, why didn't he intervene when African slaves (most of whom had become Christian when they arrived the Americas) prayed that he free them during the multiple-hundred-years-long captivity by European Americans? It makes no sense that a just interventionist God would consistently ignore bigger atrocities yet perform instant miracles when it came to things like hurting ankles. This dealt a big slap to my idea of a God of justice. The Old and New Testaments promise an interventionist God of justice, but I began to realize that "He" has been no where to be found. At this point, I still hadn't stopped being Christian though I was already heavily discouraged.

What began the radical shattering of any semblance of my Christianity and theism was my research on the authenticity and reliability of the story of Jesus's resurrection. Prior to that, I had still chosen to believe everything by faith because I had thought that my concerns were inconsequential if Jesus indeed resurrected and rose from the grave. Well, quickly into my research I realized that it is commonly accepted knowledge (amongst dead sea scroll researchers and academic theologians) that the earliest versions of the book of Mark (the oldest Gospel) had nothing about the resurrection story in it. It was in the later versions (that other people had copied and rewritten) decades after that the story had inexplicably become included.

There, also, was no external evidence, EVER, of any of the miracles that Jesus did. I mean, NONE! Jesus lived during the Roman Empire. This empire had well-read literate historians who wrote down the most remarkable things that happened even three hundred years before Christ was born. The Romans were an extremely well-organized and powerful empire. Yet, they said nothing about Jesus' miracles or resurrection story. Admittedly, one historian by the name of Josephus wrote about the existence of someone who some people today think was Jesus, but even Josephus made no notes about his supposed resurrection or miracles. This started to raise massive red flags that I couldn't ignore. I realized that the miracles stories of the Bible were written at a time of vast superstition... it was a time when several false miracle stories abounded... monarchs & certain humans were considered divine, etc. Without external evidence, this was what truly shattered the credibility of the Bible.

The revisionist history of Christianity didn't help either (I discussed this in a previous post).

My exit from Christianity was unplanned and shocking, even to me. I had realized that it was all a sham. I was in a state of panic for six weeks as almost all my friends are strong Christians. Same for my immediate family. No one in my immediate family knows yet, and I am still concerned at the outcome if any one of them finds out (though that may change in due time).

I am very surprised that it would be someone like me, with so much faith at the time, that would become non-theist. But now it makes sense... I was always the kid who asked lots of questions in class. I was always the kid who wanted to know how something worked. It was only a matter of time before something in my life caused me to start asking critical questions about Jesus/God. This is how it happened.

You think that I decided to stop being theist because it would benefit me? As an act of self-preservation I had chosen to keep believing in faith for as long as I could, until I realized that faith in the face of overwhelmingly conflicting evidence was false. Being non-theist hasn't changed my behavior whatsoever...the only thing that has changed is that I don't believe in theological/spiritual fairy tales any more... I don't engage in futile prayers anymore... I don't starve myself in the name of fasting anymore... I don't go to church anymore unless I want to go hang out with my friends there and enjoy the community of people that I like there, etc.

So, there it is.

PS: In response to the comment on your first sentence: how could you be "very sure God revealed himself to [me] if [I] honestly [sought] him without any doubt"? Are you a mind reader? Or you say this because it is somewhere in the Bible? Dude, I know Hebrews 11:6 states that God will "reward those who earnestly seek him", but I now know that this is not true.

PS: Please no one should quote this post. It is just too long! lolz

lwkmd! You are a medical doctor? I'm scared for your patients o.
Wow. Abeg please start reading good books (on science and the use of logic) and stop peddling rumors and then presenting them as fact. This has nothing with your being a theist... you just need to develop the skill of rationally sifting through evidence before arriving at conclusions.

I am very afraid for your patients.

trapQ:
...
Lastly, you should google "phil schneider", an american who worked with the US govt. He threatened to expose the USA govt about making contact with aliens and collaborating with them to do many things. He spoke out openly about it, but on the day he was going to release all the evidence, he was assinated.
Be enlightened

If you are going to claim that I just pick out points to disagree upon and "argue", then please at least don't be duplicitous.
You started off saying atheism has nothing to do with morality but in your previous post, you stylishly contradicted yourself my making claims around atheists wanting to "escape from morality". If you say you want to have a honest conversation, then making duplicitous statements poisons the honesty of such conversation.

bstringz:
What every atheist needs to do is SITDOWN and really do some soul searching. Why don't you just give God a try since most of you all ready claim to be moral and I believe u are. Unless you just wanna live a life that you know is not what God demands hence you use atheism as escapism from morality

Also, in your post below, you imply that if someone seeks God, that person will indeed find God. Well, I think I repeatedly explained in my previous posts in this forum about my search for God. Unfortunately this search led me to find that many of truth claims of Christianity are just not true. If you claim that I am just cherry picking your posts to "argue", then I would say that you are not even reading my posts at all! How can you come out and say that atheists should "SITDOWN and really do some soul searching and... give God a try" yet you dismiss what many atheists have already told you about their search for God?! Are you a good enough mind reader to know that these atheists are lying? Abeg if you are going to tell me that I am not listening, please check yourself first and look in the mirror. It is clear that you have not patiently read any of my posts on this thread.

Also, you claim that your "God can always prove himself in his on time HE IS GOD!", yet your God has failed to prove himself to many honest non-theists like me. This is a clear contradiction to your claim.

Additionally, you claim that you are not skeptic or doubtful about the Koran. This is another duplicitous and intellectually dishonest statement again. If you are not duplicitous or skeptical about the Koran, this means you believe every word of the Koran and are a Muslim as well. Are you a Muslim? The answer is no. Therefore, your statement is duplicitous.

If you want anyone to listen to you, you need to first be intellectually honest but I am afraid that you are not being so. Cheers and no offense.

bstringz:
Someone can be a good person without knowing christ. Like I said in my post if you read it at all, or all u do is just pick out points to disagree upon and "argue". I said I believe many atheists are morally upstanding. But morality is not enough because as much as we are good we are still human, imperfect.
,selfish and Christianity demands selflessness and so much more things that could only be done when u know christ, not in our morality
That's why the bible says "OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (MORALITY) IS AS FILTHY RAGS BEFORE THE LORD" when we claim to be moral, the lord still sees so much flaws that only christ can settle.

If you read my posts I encourage you to ask questions, Even God doesn't want u following him blindly like many Christians who were indoctrinated into it. God wants you to ask questions and have answers, but you probably would never find one if you keep seeking it the way many of you do, seems you already have your answer but u still claim to need answers wen u already have "found" it.

Finally anti-particle I may not argue the way u want probably ur a good historian and scientist and all, am not. You argue from the knowledge you have, I argue from the little knowledge God in his mercies has revealed to me.
What is your definition of "listen" does it mean somebody openly telling me on this forum "Am listening, you are convincing me" I don't think any of you would do that if that's what u mean
But am sure someone is listening, reading this thread and deciding to check this God out and see if what am saying is all bollocks. Someone who is at the point of falling from Knowing christ and fall to unbelief would one day come across this thread and his/her faith would come alive.
am not forcing you,i can't convince you for My God.
AGAIN logic and Christianity don't mix that's why my posts may not even sound logical, am sorry. That's just what Christianity is all about its all about FAITH. AND the bible tells me that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Not by logic, historical data, or whatever. By the word of God.

@KingEbukasBlog Ok you can have your "miracles". Good to hear that you believe that your "miracles" stand the test of empirical scrutiny.

KingEbukasBlog:
Stop being unreasonable . My body temperature dropped instantly . The hotness ceased and my body became cool instantly after the prayer was made . I suddenly gained strength and was normal again . INSTANTLY . I was amazed after the experience.

For real I'm not trying to be unreasonable. You can say you felt better instantly, which I can believe. But you can't expect me to believe your fever went away instantly unless you measured the instant temperature drop. Did you in fact have what would be clinically defined as a fever? That your illness went away doesn't mean it was a miracle. I've had headaches that disappeared in what felt like an instant; this doesn't mean it was a miracle.

Ok, even if the fever felt like it went away immediately after prayer, there are other more probable reasons why that could have happened other than prayer. Correlation does not imply causation bro. I'll need enormous proof for your enormous claim. But correlation isn't proof. I need proof for causality. You are making a God-of-the-gaps argument. Sorry.

KingEbukasBlog:
Provide biological proof that a swollen part of the face and red eye could disappear in seconds as a baby after hitting his/her against a solid metallic material e.g a gate . Are these non-theists on Nairaland ? Can you give their usernames ?

Well you can't expect me to respond to this because in your post you didn't write that it was swollen. Please stop moving the proverbial goal post. All you wrote was that your face "really red , the affected area was an obnoxious sight to behold"... this is full of so much ambiguity that it is impossible to take such a vague claim seriously.

KingEbukasBlog:
But if you are trying to insinuate that I'm lying i'l quit talking to you because it'd be taken as an insult . Its that simple . So try again and pay attention to the word "instantly"

Actually, I don't think you are lying. I truly think you believe every thing that you are stating. The fact that a traveling Bedouin sees a mirage in the middle of the Sahara (and believes it) doesn't mean there is indeed a lake there. The fact that a schizophrenic person sees objects (and believes it) does not mean that the objects are truly there. Sorry bro, you can't tell me that the swelling instantly went away and expect me to believe you when you don't even have a clear memory of the incident and thus you cannot quantify the extent to which you supposedly had swelling/redness etc.

You have once again confirmed that miracles only exist when there is ambiguity involved, or when they could be ascribed to coincidence. All your "miracle" claims fit this category. I can't even believe that you expect me to be convinced based on these excessively subjective anecdotes.

KingEbukasBlog:
1.I prayed to God to heal my badly swollen twisted ankle in my 200L and He did

lwkmd! Without prayers, most people's badly swollen twisted ankles go away; these are control experiments that challenge your claim. Your miracle claim falls flat when placed beside control experiments that didn't require prayer.

KingEbukasBlog:
2.Prayers were made to God about my nightmares when I was 10 or so . From that evening to the prayer was made till now , Ive never had those nightmares

Other people have had nightmares that have stopped without prayers or any intervention; your claim falls flat again beside these control experiments.

KingEbukasBlog:
3.For 4 yrs I did pray for God to give me the best room mates and He never failed me

So only praying Christians consistently get the best roommates? Claim falls flat again beside control experiments.

KingEbukasBlog:
4. I was once down with fever - JS3 or so - and my mum prayed for me and instantly the fever disappeared

I question your use of the term "instantly". Did you feel better psychologically or you are saying your body temperature instantly dropped by over two degrees!? If it is the latter, did you measure your body temperature to confirm? Hope you know that the definition of fever is tied to body temperature. If it is the former, then once again your claim falls flat beside control experiments of ill non-theist people who feel better because of the presence of a loved one.

KingEbukasBlog:
5. When I was a baby I smashed my head against the metal gate of our old house . According to my mum , she saw my left eye or so was really red , the affected area was an obnoxious sight to behold . She like threw away her face in grief and turned seconds later to take a look at it again and the whole thing was gone . No red eye , no injuries , my face , my head were plain smooth . I cant remember her even saying she said a word of prayer.

Lol. Of course your face/body can get red and then turn normal again seconds later; this happens to non-theists too. This happens to both Christians and non-Christians, so your claim once again falls flat beside control experiments. I can't understand how you would say this is a miracle.

All your "miracles" are specious bro, and too easy to debunk. Please tell us more plausible stories about miracles na.

ok @trapQ, I want to hear about your miracles too. Please don't send me some online link... just tell us here.

Bros, if Christianity had any correlation with morality Nigeria would today be a very prosperous country. You are also implying that not believing in the existence of Yahweh is due to a desire escape from morality? While your statements may come out of good intentions, I think you need to educate yourself on world history over the past 2,000 years in order to disabuse yourself of the notion that Christianity and morality are synonymous.

Also, you propose that atheists don't know God because they haven't made any real effort devoid of doubt and skepticism. What do you propose? Humans should follow what the Bible says without asking any questions? So, tell me, why aren't you a Muslim or Sango worshipper? You obviously aren't a Muslim or Sango worshipper because you are doubtful and skeptical about it (to put it lightly). I hope that you realize that you, also, are atheist towards all other world deities/religions outside of Christianity.

Make better arguments bro if you want anyone on here to listen to you. No offense intended.

bstringz:
You see why many of atheists don't know God is because you haven't any real effort devoid of doubt or skepticism.
...
What every atheist needs to do is SITDOWN and really do some soul searching. Why don't you just give God a try since most of you all ready claim to be moral and I believe u are. Unless you just wanna live a life that you know is not what God demands hence you use atheism as escapism from morality
...
After all what have you got to lose? Nothing.

Since you are such a great mind reader, you shouldn't need to ask me any questions as you would already know what I think. I'm glad you at least know I'll refute any specious miracles though... you are on the right track.

trapQ:
The only reason you havnt experienced GOD is because you don't want to. GOD is alive and in heaven and your perception of him won't change the reality of this fact.

Miracles happen everyday. There are many "credible" miracles I would've loved to share, with links, but you'll refute them because they don't involve regrowing of "amputated arms or legs".
I suppose you're well aware of dimensions. GOD exists in a way higher dimension than ours. HE is outside of space and time.

That aside... The reason you turned pagan was because you never saw the purpose of being a christian.

Quick question, do you want first hand proof of GOD's existence?

Wow! @dalaman... brilliant and clear arguments.

Bros, I appreciate your kind attitude.
You say we should disregard the Old Testament. Why? Didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the law?
Granted, Jesus (supposedly) came to fulfill the spirit of the law not the letter of the law as had been done in the Old Testament. In any case, the Old Testament God was a merciless genocidal and infanticidal maniac.

So let's only focus on the New Testament: I would agree with you that Jesus was nice dude who created a revolutionary template for how people should love each other. But he wasn't the only such dude to have walked the earth. Also, he was not divine. The oldest Gospel, Mark, was written decades after Jesus died, and the oldest Mark manuscript doesn't even have the resurrection story! In addition, in Mark, Jesus did not claim to be God. It was in the newer Gospels, particularly The Book of John (written several more decades later), that the unquestioned divinity of Jesus was asserted. Also a lot of Christians think that Messiah means God; in Judaism, Messiah didn't mean God... in Mark, Jesus claimed he was Messiah not God.

Also, up until the Nicene Creed in the 4th Century, the idea of Christ's divinity wasn't even a universally agreed upon belief among practitioners of Christianity at the time! It was at this conference that a bunch of people decided that Christ was divine and the trinity was real. Think about it again... it was 300-400 years after Christ died that his divinity and his part of a so-called trinity became a standard part of Christian belief.

My point is that Christianity has had a revisionist history since inception. I don't disagree that Jesus was a great man (if he existed), but he provides no evidence to prove that he is/was God. Tell me about any miracles he claimed to have performed, and I will tell you about miracles other humans/deities at that time claimed to have performed. The Bible's claims about his wondrous works are as true as Buddha's or Sango's claims.

If the Christian God exists, it befuddles me that "He" would create rational empirical beings yet expect them to worship "Him" without providing them proof of "His" existence.

If this doesn't raise more questions, I don't know what will. Just wanted to share my thoughts bruv. No offense intended.

PS: I can talk theology if you want to... when I was Christian I read as many expositional theology and apologetics books as I could get my hands on (excluding books by materialistic pastorpreneurs such as Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, and their Nigerian & American ilk). I really thought I was getting closer to God, until I found myself across the proverbial Rubicon.

bstringz:
You know why I needed to add you guys on whatsapp was so we could chat live back and forth consistently without barriers. Cos most times am not always on nairaland. I have been keenly following you guys for sometime and feel I should get in touch with you. Too the guy who said that atheism is not a religion or society, I quite agree it's not. It's a choice and a conviction.
But hey, do u know what? So is Christianity. Christianity is not a religion I think that's where I would start from. Christianity is a way of life. The bible tells us that the men at Corinth saw the LIFESTYLE of the followers of Jesus and said this men behave like christ and hence called them Christians.
Please I need you guys to disregard some of the things you read on the old testament. If that was a definition for who God is, I wouldn't have also worshipped him. Please, take some Time to read through the new testament with an open heart and follow the life of Jesus christ and his teachings, and to would see that many things he taught are the basis for good living today.
Christianity is not conformity to any set down rules or guidelines. No. Christ defined Christianity in the golden rule of loving others as much as we love ourselves and even sometimes more than we love ourselves.

I believe many of you were once Christians and you have an objective mind. Go through the life of christ objectively.

The old testament is not a basis for living. The life of christ is. He dwelled among us so we could see how possible it is for us to live a good life,devoid of sin.

I know I didn't address some issues. I just started with this. If you have any topic u want us to talk about bring it up and let's talk. No insults please. Let's use our heads cos we are young and reasonable people.

Thanks

Woww. Very well put. Saw your response to my other post as well. Cheers.

BeastOfNoNation:
You say black men were busy worshipping stones and rocks. As opposed to now where we're supposed to worship the air and a crucified dead man. Please I don't want to offend but I just wanted to point that out Why could God not find a more peaceful way to spread his religion? Before Christ, the Jews suffered for being God's people. When Christ came, he suffered on the cross. After he died, the Catholics suffered and were killed for practicing their religion in Rome. After the fall Rome, Charlemagne forcefully converted people to Christianity or threatened to beheaded them if they chose otherwise. During the medieval ages, common folk in Europe suffered under the rule of the Catholic church. During the Holy Crusades, many black people were taken from West Africa, tortured, enslaved, killed and forcefully converted to Christianity. During the Holocaust, most of the world's Jewish population was wiped out in concentration camps. Aboriginal people in Canada were almost completely wiped out by 'Christian' people and then the children were put in residential catholic schools where the nuns and priests would routinely abuse them. The world's current situation where countless Muslims are running away from their homes because terrorist groups are suicide bombing and trying to kill them. What is the benefit of the Abrahamic religions again? Please answer it for me because I don't know.

Bro, sorry o but I mostly only debate theology/theism/religion with close friends (and on Nairaland). Also, I did lots and lots of research and reading before I became a theological skeptic... funnily, I did all the research because I wanted to understand God better yet it led me to a Pandora's Box!

Edited:
If you are a theist hoping to convince me: I really doubt you would tell me something new... but I'm open so you are welcome to cogently respond to my post and provide any countering evidence on this public thread.

If you are skeptic/atheist looking to think through some things together, sure... being a new skeptic comes with its bag of issues to sort out, especially being from a highly religious (though ungodly) nation as Nigeria. Yet, we can have the conversation on this public forum as well.

bstringz:
Hey @antiparticle and the rest of the atheists here... Am glad u guys could come here and bring up sound reasoning it's good and it's not wrong

I would really love to chat with u guys so we could have a meaningful conversation. Hey @johnnydon I sent u a pm, and I asked for u to add me on whatsapp

My number is 09026526548. The atheists here Can add me on whatsapp let's have a meaningful conversation

@johnydon22... thanks mahn. I appreciate your intellect and clarity in communication. The problem with many theists (though not all) is that instead of legitimately listening to the honest arguments of theological skeptics, they quickly become hostile and launch ad-hominems. If this were four hundred years ago, I bet some of these angry theists would murder us on sight... after all, this was standard practice at the time.

I love @menesheh's post that "[God] should know we are intellectually honest with our position as atheist. He should know that we are trying so hard to distinguish between facts and fantasy, and that the method and link he established for communicating with us is so vague and lack evidence and justifications."

The problem is that many theists, particularly Christian and Muslims (though not all), think that atheists are atheist for undeclared dishonest motives. This is probably what sucks to hear from friends/family -- that they think one is skeptic/atheist/agnostic because of an ulterior motive.

When I was Christian, I used to listen patiently to my atheist/agnostic friends and we didn't get into any theological fights in spite of our debates (they made some good points that I acknowledged I didn't have the answer to, and they made some points that I also strongly but amiably disagreed with). I figured that was what Jesus would want me to do. Many of the Christians on the Nairaland religion section respond to non-theists with so much bile, in a way that the Jesus they worship would not endorse. Funnily, I think Jesus (if he existed) was a good guy though I obviously don't think he was divine. lol.

Glad to hear your insightful and mature thoughts.

KingEbukasBlog:
Honestly , these are conclusions a 5 yr old kid should come up with . WTF

What if you got it wrong? There are hundreds of thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout world history, so your probability of worshiping the right God is less than 0.001%. How do you feel certain in spite of this low probability? Not trying to fight anyone... just having an honest debate here.

An2elect2:
What if LMAO You got it all wrong, durhhh.

@OP:
I have no certainty about the existence of a creator either. But if there is one, he/she/it is definitely not the God of the Bible or Koran or any of the religions marauding themselves as truth. This is not to say I hate religion. I don't. Religion can be good for people if and only if it helps them become better people and lead better lives.

Unfortunately, almost every religion claims that it is its own truth claims that are correct, and in order to ensure followership from the masses, most religions use fear and extortionist tactics to suppress questions and critical thinking. This is what I have my biggest problem with.

Religion in Nigeria (particularly Pentecostal Christianity which I was once an avid part of), unfortunately has created a people who prefer superstition over science and elevate prayers over hard work.

Also, if God exists, he/she/it wouldn't make it so hard to find him/her/it. It makes no sense for a God to make so many threats against unbelievers yet refuse to provide clear, convincing, unfakeable, and unquestionable evidence to prove his/her/its existence.

My conclusion is thus:
1. If the Abrahamic God exists, and "He" indeed plans to punish me for not believing in "Him" (in spite of "His" refusal to provide me unfakeable evidence to pacify my earnest search for "Him" ), then "He" is a psychopathic entity that I wouldn't want to worship anyways. Think about it, does it make any sense that most Christians in the world today (including in Africa, South America, and even many European countries) are so solely because their ancestors were conquered by murderers, enslavers, colonialists, and tyrants?

2. If certain populations would go to hell because they aren't Christians (e.g. because their ancestors weren't conquered by other Christian nations), then either the Christian God (who supposedly is a God of justice) is not just or He doesn't exist. Either way, I'm not interested in worshiping an unjust entity or a nonexistent God. The preponderance of evidence points to the likelihood that a personal & interventionist God (a la the Bible or Koran) doesn't exist.

3. The Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments, speaks of an interventionist God. I used to be a passionate Christian. But as a science-oriented analytical thinker, from observation I have now realized that miracles do not happen. Jesus said those that follow him would perform similar miracles and signs and wonders as he did. There hasn't been any unquestionable miracle (e.g. growing back of amputated limb). The only "miracles" I hear of are miracles that could equally be attributed to coincidence or placebo. Prayers, too, don't get answered... it took me a while to figure this one out too... the only prayers that get answered are for the things that one didn't need prayer for in the first place. Sigh. If the Christian God exists, then "He" is not even following his own standards as laid out in the Bible therefore he is not all-powerful which implies he is either a liar, a weakling, or doesn't exist. I don't worship liars.

If a creator exists, I don't think he/she/it cares about us. Or maybe he/she/it is dead. Or maybe there is no metaphysical anthropomorphic personal interventionist God in the way that we think about it.

I could go on and on and on....

Wow, this is very well put. Totally agree.

charix:
Prayer is a strategy whereby you do nothing but can rationalize in your mind you performed an action.

E.g. Your dog's drowning; you immediately start praying instead of jumping to action. After praying for an hour the dog dies eventually. You're now free to write the dog off saying it was destined to die either way since God did nothing about your prayer.

That's what the whiteman anticipated and it still works today. They create solutions to problems and sell them to us who've tried to no avail praying them away.