₦airaland Forum

Amusaopeyemi:
No traditional white wedding gown or suit or flowers or all those fancy nonsense.
Just show up at the court house dressed in a Normal Dress and Bros in shirt and Jean. One or two friends/family members. 5mins later, we are out.
That will be after 3children and like 15years of being together sha, i'll be doing it so I can have the right to do anything I want with his corpse should he die and he the same with mine, instead of our family members.

HardMirror:
First Nigerian I am meeting who is as crazy as I am

Amusaopeyemi:
Hahahaha there are quite a number of us out there you know? Some are just shy to say it out loud. I have a feeling the owner of NL is like this too.

It is very rare to meet Nigerians like you both. I became atheist about a year and half ago (from being very christian) and I rarely meet Nigerians that are true freethinkers like you both. I live in a another country tho. I'm glad I now know the truth and it has set me free.
@HardMirror, I really enjoy the way you systematically point out the fallacies in religion.

I don't know why everything has to be about the devil! These are practical issues here.

samuelson06:
It's quite sad but I never read the part involving battery. Trust me, divorce is a sad change in the life of anybody. It's a clear show of defeat from the devil. It's a shame for parties involve not just physically but spiritually also. I wouldn't advice anyone to file for divorce no matter what because I understand that life is not physical. Or how can you explain a situation between two people that were once love birds and suddenly they become enemies? Why didn't all the bad attitudes and character of the other showed up before they got married? Don't think of pretense, they may have not been any. I see what is happening to this family as an attack of the enemy: turning the heart of one against the other. But I'll still maintain that there can be a reconciliation; this family can overcome this challenge and live together in peace again. That love they enjoyed in the beginning is still there, just somewhere and they can activate it again. The problem is that nobody is ready to fight for that peace. I'm someone that always believe that in every challenge, there can always be a way to make peace. I don't believe in running away from challenges. I dig deep and find out how to make things work. Marriage is about managing the other. There's no perfect marriage. Finally, in this situation, someone needs deliverance and until that is done, peace may never be in sight. The problem definitely, is not running away because you never know if the real problem is you. Divorce can be the beginning of your destruction.

So you want her to keep consulting "God" (aka, a mythical man in the sky) while getting beaten to a pulp by the nearnderthal husband? Be practical na.

tosinjay:
Awesome response there. I read so many things about marriage and i become mute because if i talk they come and start saying am being sanctimonious. Marriage is an institution ordained by God, God must be consulted, involved in any. Too many wrong foundations causing havic today and divorce is not the way out.

Op please pray oo, no comot from frying pan to fire!! May God see you through.

Like Nathaniel Bassey said, when one marries wrongly, the word the bible have for such an one is that. "My grace is sufficient for you".

are you freaking serious? she was beaten to a bloody coma while eight-months pregnant and your only question is to ask her about her contribution to the situation?

Do you think that it is ever justifiable to hit a woman if she does something that the husband doesn't like

ottersberger:
Madam, i abhore irresponsibility in a man, definitely and totally frown on physical violence towards a female under any circumstance. but, I gotta ask you this, whats your contribution to this ugly situation?, are you also culpable in any way?.

I understand that you mean well with your advice but I vehemently disagree that she should keep enduring. You want her to stay with this jerk and keep praying Her so-called husband doesn't care about her life hence he beat her bloody while she was eight months pregnant and this is the advice you offer her? If I were OP's brother (or even the husband's brother), there is no way I wouldn't have had him beaten bloody! What a psycho of a husband!

OP, I sympathize with you. Please divorce him. He doesn't deserve you. Any man that lays hands on a woman is a sociopath and cannot be entrusted with her safety.

Run away from him. Please protect your life and your daughter's.

**To the lawyers on this thread who have offered help, kudos to you.**

samuelson06:
@Juzzybabe

Please don't go divorce. Probably, you guys started on a wrong foot. But at least you both were legally married. As humans, we all have different life journies. Don't feel your mates are having a wonderful life and family out there and you are here 'suffering.' No! What has happened has happened. I'll encourage you to see the whole thing as a challenge. Face it and win it - get your husband back. This is a trick of the devil to shatter your life. Don't give up. I tell you, there's no better life out there. You may not know the challenge your husband is facing over there. Why not make him your prayer point everyday? Why not wake at midnight to pray for him? See, prayer works. Pray for his life, pray for his return and also pray for what he'll be doing when he returns to re-unite with you. It's that simple! You have a stake in his life and your prayers would affect him directly. Pray and believe God that He is working out an answer for you. Like you always wanted, raise the child the Lord's way. Tell her good things about dad. Tell her dad would return soon to be with her. Don't make her feel dad doesn't care or hates you both even though situation may appear to be so but you don't know God's mind about the issue. If you have any grudge against him, put it away. Call him and tell him his family misses him. One important key here is that your prayers and other things you talk to him on phone must be from your heart. And your heart must be free of hate or grudges about anyone. Forgive and make peace with all. You wouldn't tell me that deep inside you, apart from all that has happened over time, you've got not a little love for him again; you wouldn't tell me that you won't like to see your family a one strong united family. Don't let anybody convince you to seek for divorce. You've got no guarantee that life outside there is going to be without challenges, and if you feel it wouldn't be a challenge of this nature, I'll tell you that a challenge is a challenge. Your approach to the situation would determine your future. I know you have a choice to respond to it the way you want, but I'll advice you to respond to it God's way. There's always a reward for those who endure. Be prayerful. You can change things for good. Learn to make God happy in your situations. I can still talk to you more if you send me a PM. There are other things I can't say here.

Get well soon @tufanja.

I don't fully understand your question.
Fossils are excavated from archaeological digs. The fossils of evolutionary ancestors from older generations are usually found in deeper layers of rock. Using radiological dating, we are also able to estimate the age of fossils. Some of these fossils are in museums around the world, and many of them are in research labs (in universities), but most fossils are still buried underneath deep layers of rock. A lot of fossil sites are discovered accidentally.

Please read the links in my previous posts and then ask your question. I assume you are truly curious, this is why I hyperlinked those well-written posts about evolution by other Nairalanders.

If you however have already concluded that evolution is not factual, then I'm sorry there's nothing that I can tell you that will cause you to become open to evaluating the evidence.

joshysmartie:
So in essense I can get bones of millions of this in museum? Thats they extinct or what?

@cloudgoddess has done a wonderful job explaining evolution here:
https://www.nairaland.com/2914888/much-needed-explanation-evolution#42648099

@menesheh also gives a good layman's explanation here:
https://www.nairaland.com/2806737/simplified-layman-explanation-basic-ideas#41078678

FYI, evolution is biological fact. I used to be a creationist like you, but I started to question this position the day I went to a museum and saw on display the half-excavated skeleton of a human evolutionary ancestor. Seeing is believing, my friend. There is too much physical evidence (archaeological, genetic, geophysical, etc) that show that evolution is unambiguously factual.

joshysmartie:
Firstly thanks for pointing out my ignorance which was already stated at bolded "clear me out"

this are things that I thought stears folks into being atheist...
#myhonestopinion
.history- names recorded in the bilble are not found in history where are those families today..?
.creation- the only thing that enlightened or should I say confused people into being atheist is science ...
I mean u can't expect a sensible man to just believe things appeared and he was made of dust. So on an so fort..
But science made a litle sense with the evolution theory...
The thing is its their own opinion...

So... If you say @bolded then how the fvck do they they explain creation...
No offence just asking..

Astute response. I couldn't have written this as well as you just did.

cloudgoddess:
Simple. Human brains are prone to delusions and hallucinations. There has been much research done on this topic within the fields of Psychology and Neuroscience.

People can hallucinate without having consumed drugs; our senses can play tricks on us in both subtle and serious ways. And believing that something is real (especially when that "something" is supernatural with a lot of emotional connection associated with it) can "make" that thing feel and seem very real in our minds. Belief in itself is enough to alter people's perceptions -- the way we interpret our various experiences or hallucinations is molded by what we already think to be true.

Atheists don't think all theists are lying when they say they've seen spirits, satan, god, etc. We just know they're victims of the fallible and easily tricked human brain.

If Christians do not follow the Old Testament, then why do the Christian doctrines of salvation, the "original sin", the "God the Father" concept, the creation story, etc all hinge on the Old Testament? Also, why is the Old Testament (OT) in the Bible then? Why did Jesus say that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfil the law (as in OT law)?

Without belief in the fairy tales of the Old Testament, Christianity would not have a complete doctrine. So yes, Christians believe in the Old Testament. Christians believe that Yahweh is Jesus and Jesus is Yahweh through the human-invented concept of the Trinity. Therefore Jesus (through his Yahweh stunt double) commanded slavery, genocide, infanticide, and all that in the Old Testament. The Christian concept of the Trinity means that Jesus is the same tyrannical entity in the Old Testament.

Those who advocate tithing follow the Old Testament, yet are quick to reject it when people point out its unsavory contents. Why would a good God be such a callous and inhumane racial supremacist as in the OT?

In any case, even the New Testament is not free of discrimination and prejudice. The Apostle Paul was sexist against women, and was pro-slavery; he commanded the runaway slave Onesimus to return back to his master Philemon. If Paul was a good man, it makes no sense that he would be more sympathetic to the slave master than the slave.

Also, Jesus did not invent the idea of "love your neighbor as yourself"; Confucious in China several centuries before Jesus came up with the golden rule of do unto others as would be done unto you. You don't need to be Christian to be a good person. Humans have had traits of both good and bad before religion and since the dawn of human origins.

miketayo:
Christians dont follow d laws of the old testament.. dats for the jews. Jesus explained those laws in the old testament clearer.. moreover Jesus gave us just 2 commandments which is love of God and love ur neighbors as urself.. which contradicts dat passage literally .

Stop using the tool of fear and eternal torment to truncate his/her skepticism. There is no hell, there is no heaven. Live your life and follow the golden rule of doing unto others as you would be done to you.

Deities are human constructs. Religion is a human invention. Christianity and Islam are the religions of the enslavers.

captainrock:
renounce the religion na odeh, nobody will escort u to hell. read your bible n stop weighing your religion on a fellow man mistake

Ok since you are such a fan of the Bible, including the Old Testament, how do you interpret this verse?
Deut 25:11-12 "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

The Bible is not a reliable book for moral decision-making.

Ytechconst:
If truly you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you read your bible and digest it in the right way then how will you interprete this bible passage:


Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Do not quote me wrong. The Lord will still bless you but my brother blessing has measures. If you look at the last sentence of the passage it says

“AND POUR YOU OUT BLESSING THAT THERE SHALL NOT BE ROOM ENOUGH TO RECEIVE IT”

So my obedience makes me have more than enough. So whenever i am obeying God through tithing and seed sowing i am certain that the money is leaving my pocket but not leaving my life because its gonna come back to me in large measures.

I hope your family's financial situation gets better.

Having said that, check out Paul's writing in First Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Hope this answers your question.

Also, if you truly believe in Yahweh/Jesus, don't you think he would understand and be merciful if you pay your brothers tuition instead?

I'm sorry OP, but you've been brainwashed by Nigerian pastorpreneurs to fork over your money to subsidize their lifestyles.

Best of luck. FYI, I am not religious but I remembered the above verse from when I used to be a super brainwashed theist.

Otth:
Okay, this is a challenge I need a solution to. My parents are saying no money no money when it is obvious that they have. My little brother is home because he has outstanding fees so I was wondering if I should give him my tithe to pay part while I pay the tithe next month when I get my next salary, I don't know what to do.

Mods please move it to fp, I need urgent solution to this.

Ruq:
...One thing is obvious y'all both bullies, but atheists on this forum appear to be heartless, you're no different from those who mentally torture depressed individuals with suicide taunts and yet you all think you're helping humanity by liberating what theists believe to be true despite not being sure if their god is real. Plus it does already appear a lot are certain that God isn't real, where are your open mindedness?.

I am 99.9999999999% certain that the Bible is not god inspired and the Christian god (as asserted in the Bible) is not real. Are you open-minded that a ten-headed elephant with sixteen legs created the universe? I'm guessing the answer is no. In the same way, I am certain that the god of the Bible is a human invention.

Ruq:
I'm not going to lie I enjoy the sarcasms you involve in exposing what you term as myths but it still doesn't mean you aren't heartless, I prolly might have said things myself that warrants my head on a guillotine. The way you all go about it shows you don't even care about the mental state of those you claim you want to free. A quick look of the posts of atheists here shows you why blasphemy was grave back then and why they wanted them silenced by all means.

Ok, you think that dissenting speech demands capital punishment. Clap for yourself.

Ruq:
True, an omnipotent god should be capable of all these, this points that majority of atheists are empathetic about their fellow human it also shows you lot hold onto an utopian view of the world despite knowing its an impossible reality but your responses show that we all expect heaven on earth, but the theists have promised you this utopian world somewhere in the metaphysical realm but yet you still go ahead to debunk them accusing them of how silly the idea is. True it is, because no matter how perfect the world is we need a negligible amount of imperfection to appreciate perfection.

The skeptic/atheist/etc argument is based on a desire to debunk myths not about a supposed utopian world. Your argument here is a strawman.

Ruq:
Like I once said, when push comes to shove and it will happen no matter how long it takes push will always come to shove these atheists will create God all over again when we go back to our beast nature that we naturally are.

Atheism is neither religion nor philosophy. It is merely the absence of belief.

Ruq:
Plus if you understand the God concept to a point you'll acknowledge those books are just too fuckin complete even the contradictions aren't lies just as they say every prayer answers. I use to think those who believe in God were wrong but they aren't it may be false reality and all but they aren't wrong for believing and they aren't totally stupid either for believing.

The false reality of the Bible has been dangerous to many humans for over one thousand years. It is morally wrong to believe in and/or practice large parts of the Bible or Koran. The Trans-Atlantic slave trade was justified by Pope Innocent because the Old and New Testaments both condoned and encouraged slavery. People (especially women) have been burned alive for millennia because European theists believed they were following the Bible's command on how "witches" or apostates should be treated. You should be thankful that you live in an age where people don't carry out all the commands of the Bible; if you lived in the 1500s, a European Christian would authoritatively claim that it is moral to enslave you because the Bible justifies it!

Your write-up wrongly infers that belief is harmless. This is far from the truth. Christian & Islamic belief have been dangerous for most of their existence!

Ruq:
I cannot even build the courage to tell my sis, mum, that there's no one answering those prayers but still I could be wrong, as a matter of fact I'd give up anything to admit that I am. And I do mindfully hope that I'm the one who is wrong about God, it's still 50/50 fairytale or not they could be right also. Even if I find myself in hell, I'm sure I will be able to stage a protest.

It is not 50/50. It IS fairytale. Pick up some books and read up on world history over the past 2500 years.

I like your calm & measured comment.

But the scenario you painted isn't a "draw" though. What if Zeus is the correct god? What if it is Olórun or Amadiora? What if it is Thor? If this were a simple game of probability, every theist is likely to be worshiping the wrong god hence will end up in another religion's hell. Using this sort of [fear-based] formulation, the theist is playing the exact same game as the atheist; they each have about almost the same probability of going to one god's hell (hundreds of thousands of gods have been worshiped throughout human history).

Unfortunately, the average Christian/Muslim is too afraid to do enough research that may lead to information that creates doubt. An intellectually honest person should not be afraid to ask honest questions and go where the research takes him/her. With intellectual courage, an empathetic mind, and a careful observation of the inequalities and randomness in our world, one starts to see patterns that question the notion of an interventionist God. Upon further readings of world history (starting from at least 2,500 years back) and the history of religion, the truth starts to gradually hit one in the face. This is how an intellectually courageous theist ends up becoming atheist.

There are good reasons for Nigerian atheists to gradually go public:
1. Religion in Nigeria is used to scam people of their money thru tithes & offering, money that can be used to instead help the poor.
2. Religion leads people to not fully think critically, with the belief that an imaginary "God" plays a large role in one's success.
3. The time invested in prayer and fasting could be directed to real efforts that lead to directly solving problems.
4. Realizing that the Abrahamic "God" is imaginary would create a sense of urgency to be proactive about our lives and society.
5. Our deeply superstitious society has not yet entered the "Age of Reason", and realizing the folly of religion would better legitimize the primacy of analytical and scientific thinking as a superior approach to solving problems. This would lead to a positive trickle effect into our schools, companies, and government.

Theism is an anachronism that has exceeded its expiry date. Theistic religion was once useful for humans when we understood little about nature around us; we filled our knowledge gaps by presupposing the existence of supernatural entities to describe the obscure in nature. Now that we have resources to know better, we should throw away the mythology in religion and stop deluding ourselves about the interventionism of a fairy tale man in the sky.

shurlar50:
I've follow'd this thread for a while now & I have learnt few things concerning religious beliefs. I'm still a bit curious (confused) about some arguments you guys engage in tho; If atheists don't believe in a god (or God's) existence, I dont see any reason why you should view a religious person as dumb or fool. They believe there is a superior being who they must obey to make heaven but atheists believe thats BS and its fake. In as much atheists dont believe there is a god, Why not just let every xtians/muslim et al., be (they are ignorant, right?). You were once a believer and eventually knew smthing better. Why not just hope they get to that point u changed for good.
Personally, i think one should try to play smart. If you believe God in your lifetime and u eventually get to heaven or hell, thats 3 points out of a 3, if u believe God but at the end, u only got rotten and benefited soil fertility, thats a draw (that way, God didnt exist nd u got nothing to lose IMO),

HardMirror:
Which one should we believe? Is God a god that answers His children? Yes or No. All I see here are excuses not to hold God accountable for his so called promises in the bible.

I will yet again bring up the issue of the baby born without anus.

Oh yes God is not emotional He does things for a purpose you claim. Hmmm. Nice.

So God created this baby without an anus, I am sure he did it to maintain the balance of the ecosystem just as you claim in your post right?

Then you also said we should not interfere with the balance God is trying to maintain.

Ok so we should leave the baby to die of accumulated toxins that would result from his inability to defecate?

Are you if doctors should operate on this baby they are interfering with God's original plan for the baby to die? Because it is obvious if we pray for the baby God won't do shiit even though you claim he created the baby and you will also claim God loves the baby, yet he will allow that baby to die a painful death?

Now it is making sense to me. Maybe God also created you with the inability to reason so the ecosystem will be balanced. Having too many smart people will be bad.

Answer me regarding that baby and other babies born crippled, born with heart defects, born with down syndrome, born with cancer, born with brain defects, born dumb, born deaf, born with 3 legs, born with 2 heads, born with 2 sex organs etc

How many of them has God restored? How many have surgeons fixed?

1.Does it mean surgeons are more capable than God?

2. Or does it mean surgeons are more compassionate than God?

3.Or does it mean Surgeons are Interfering with God?

Whoa. Fantastic response.

This is a fantastic thread, HardMirror.
For all my adult life I was a strong dedicated humanistic Christian, and ended up an agnostic-atheist like you. I guess curiosity killed the cat.

I have written down different versions of my story on NL including this long writeup about my journey into disbelief, this short post about my disillusionment with Christianity, this post about my views on prophecies and miracles, this response to a Nairalander on the revisionist history of Christianity, and this brief conclusion on the idea of god/gods. Writing out these posts was therapeutic and cathartic for me.

Thanks!

LoJ:
Welcome Sir. Your contribution is appreciated.

Loving this thread.
Let me take this opportunity to introduce myself. I am a humanist. I get along well anyone that embraces humanistic principles (including religious people that are humanistic); I used to debate theists on NL but I got tired of typing excessively.

Also, I want to agree with @JackBizzle's observations about Nigerian doctors and nurses; they always seem pissed and unwilling to be challenged. I live in another country and the differences in attitude are very stark. I'm sure that there are some kind charismatic Naija doctors/nurses that are willing to be engaged by the patient, but I have never met one in a Nigerian hospital yet.

Also, @tufanja I like your temperament.

@dalaman you try o! I have reached the conclusion that it is almost impossible to have a rational debate with theists (particularly Christians and Muslims). It feels like a lost cause. The willful and stubborn irrationality is shocking.

The few theists who are most likely to think critically and reason with your objections are the ones who would end up becoming atheist/deist even if you didn't have this conversation with them.

I can't believe that I was once a brainwashed theist. Thankfully I was logical enough to rid myself of religion once I started learning about the history of Christianity and more. Unfortunately most Christians just swallow hook line and sinker whatever they read in the Bible, without questioning its historical credibility.

Faith is self-refuting. Faith is a logical fallacy. Faith-based religion dulls critical thinking!

Unfortunately, Nigeria is largely a society where most university graduates can't think critically. As such, I am not too surprised at the folly you have experienced on this thread.

Ask yourself, why is it that those accused of witchcraft are exclusively the weak, vulnerable, or the oppressed (mostlly children or women, particularly little children or disabled old women)? Why is it that adult men or rich/powerful women are rarely accused of witchcraft? From a sociological standpoint, it is clear that it is the most scapegoatable segments of the population that are usually victim to these accusations. Why??

Have u ever asked yourself why today only an extremely low percentage of Europeans or North Americans blame their problems on witchcraft? Have u ever wondered why "witchcraft" accusations in Europe and North America consistently reduced with increased economic progress and advancements in science/technology and medicine? Why??

Well, "witches" exist because people look for someone/people to blame for their problems. In reality, witchcraft does NOT exist. So many African families have been split apart by accusations of witchcraft, as an attempt to hastily explain the reasons behind one's personal or economic failure. We need to start thinking critically.

Physical causes lead to physical effects. We need to stop this medieval practice of accusing people of witchcraft.

If God knows everything before it happens, then that invariably means that everything is pretermined and there is no true independent human will/choice (which contradicts the Bible). If everything is not predetermined (i.e. there is true independent human will) then that means God doesn't know everything, thus also contradicting the Bible.

This is one of the countless logical fallacies in the Bible.

mykel25:
I have a question lingering in my mind....its believed that God knows everything before time....is it to say when it come to when we are to choose he already know the choice we ll make? if yes then why did he give us CHOICE?

To my own opinion he only knows the end point when we make a choice....he does not interfere with that cuz he gave that power to us..I call it "THE PLACE OF MAN" I see choice as a decision we have to make so that we can take responsibilities for it.......buh there is a place where God tampered with human choice in the bible....in the case of moses and pharoah....he was the one that sent moses yet he's still the one that hardened pharoahs heart so that he can destroy him (book of exodus) so the question is does God know EVERYTHING to d extent of knowing the choice we ll make? Plus those that rob and kill is it God's plan for their life? Remember everything he created is good

Anas09:
@Johnnydon22m
You are Ibo right?
The word Superstition, is it an ibo word?
Someone said something like, anything that has an English name, is in Englishland.
The last time I checked, Once upon a time, Britain was burning their witches alive.

Are you for real? So because the English once burned witches we should too?
You are saying that we should just copy whatever the English do/did without using our brains?
Clap for yourself.
(walks off and plays "Colo-mentality" by Fela)

Anas09:
And today, if there's any place in the world that the practice of witch craft is prevailent, is in London. I mean, today with all their technological advancement.
And am certain that they are not africans.

Oh ok, so the English are currently practicing witchcraft and blaming witches for their problems the way we do in Nigeria?
The English are currently beating and burning "witches"? smh.

Here are some relevant lines for you from Colo-mentality by Fela:
E be say you be colonial man
You don be slave man before
Them don release you now
But you never release yourself

Astute analysis.
Did you closely study both the Koran and the Bible? I wish I had the curiosity to study the Koran as I did the Bible.
I used to be Christian, and read like 80% of the Bible several times over thus I concur with your commentary on it.
It is true that none of the Abrahamic religions can be classified as peaceful.

EnlightenedSoul:
I didn't know you were an atheist, Neo. I totally thought you were Catholic You'll find that the Eastern religions are infinitely superior to Abrahamic religions where the concept of peace and "live and let live" is concerned. Islam, alongside Judaism and Christianity, cannot be classified as a "peaceful" religion, since the holy texts routinely glorify and incite believers to violent acts, as well as prescribing extreme bodily punishments without so much as bothering to place conclusive restrictions as to their harsh perpetration.

These holy texts are saturated with verses of violence, hatred, and intolerance toward those outside the faith, neighboring ethnic groups, and in the case of Islam particularly, the sowing of discord within the immediate community itself through the ambiguous mention of folks simply referred to as "hypocrites" throughout the length of the text (Muslims who don't act like Muslims, or who follow Islamic mandates without much faith or fervor).

In sharp contrast to the Bible, which generally moves from incredibly violent episodes to far more peaceful mandates (Ecclesiastes being the most humane, peaceful, genuinely likable among them), the Quran notably travels in the opposite direction (violence is first forbidden, then permitted, then, in rather ambiguous fashion, mandatory).

The promising earlier verses which speak of peace and tolerance are overwhelmed by an avalanche of later verses that are a rallying cry to, well. Also, whilst a portion of the Old Testament's blood and steel verses are generally bound by a descriptive historical context within the text itself, Quranic imperatives to violence usually appear open-ended and are therefore subject to personal interpretation.

If one were to thoroughly read the holy text in its original Arabic, gain knowledge on the birth of the religion, it's prophet & Hadith, and examine the period after his death, i.e, caliphate rule/conquest, etc, they could hardly come to a "peaceful" conclusion. Put under the same light of scrutiny, no other monotheistic religion can be deemed "peaceful" in any sense, really. I sometimes wonder if the "peace" label mysteriously garnered by Islam comes from the manner in which Muslims greet each other (by uttering the words 'peace be upon you'), but then that'd be ironic since Muslims aren't allowed to greet disbelievers (anyone who isn't Muslim) with those same words.

One million likes.

neoapocalypse:
Interesting submission there , the general view , just as you said , is that Islam is a religion of peace. I don't have any beef with any religion but when a religion doesn't have value for human lives and doesn't live by the cardinal rule of "live and let live" then such a religion should be stamped out of this world. I am atheist and what I have seen about major religions and people practising these religions are that they are deceitful and live a debauched lifestyle , they go against the very thing they stand for.

Reread my previous post before the one you quoted. I never said Islam was peaceful. I contend that both Christianity and Islam are violent, period. I argue that modern Christianity, also, can be violent but in systematic & sanitized ways compared to the clearly barbaric violence out of modern Islam. Reread my previous three posts.

Also, the Old Testament Yahweh was a homicidal/genocidal/infanticidal maniac, so I don't accept your claim that that the Christian God (who supposedly is the same entity as the Old Testament Yahweh or the New Testament Jesus) teaches to love your enemies. Yes, Jesus indeed teaches to love your enemies but this is endlessly violated in the Bible. If the Christian God was loving, why did he murder Ananais and Sapphira just because they lied about a mere piece of land? This punishment of death was excessively cruel and unusual. Why did Yahweh get bears to murder forty-two children just because they were making fun of Elisha's bald head?

I am not an apologist for Islam, so I don't understand why you expect me to address the notion that atheists cannot express their beliefs in such countries. Of course it is true that atheists cannot come out publicly in most Muslim countries. Of course it is true that barbaric violence comes out of extremist factions of Islam. But you have to realize that Christianity was this same way for most of its history as well! The only difference today is that those who commit violent acts in the name of modern Christianity (or with the support of modern Christians) often do it using more sophisticated weaponry and verbiage.

That you say that those who committed violent acts aren't true Christians is the exact same thing as a Muslim saying those who commit violent acts aren't true Muslims. This is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

By the way, I am not "an atheist", as this is not my identity or creed. I am atheistic about all gods I've ever heard about and I identify closer to agnostic or deist; overall, I am humanist. If there is evidence that god(s) exist, I would change my mind in a jiffy, but there isn't any real evidence of the existence of any god(s). "God" is an invention of the human mind.

malvisguy212:
you say systematic violence in the name of modern Christianity? How many people christians used systematic violence to killed? Jesus teaches that we are to love everyone including OUR ENEMIES. Anything body acting contrary to this, he is not obeying the word of God.

Are you sure you are an atheist? Atheists cannot expressed his or her belief in muslims countries, but in the west, were christians are the dominant, atheists live freely.

lwkmd! This is how rumours get started.

FOLYKAZE:
Eweso chief.

Atheists here are simplly noisemakers who couldnt justify religion beliefs. So most form attack against unjustify religion belief.

I also heard Johnydon22 was raped by his priest. How would you want such person not attacking forefront everything that has to do with God?

Johnysky:
I have been banned for replying your post.. Please the bolded is false, the guy only used it as an analogy ..he was giving someone an e.g and he used my name to relay his analogy..

Please relaying such lies against me is offensive to me and i beg you please don't do it again. ..

I have never met a Muslim that has stated the bolded. Any person like that has the tendencies of extremism. I know that often times Muslims point to Christian violence not to justify Muslim violence but to express that their religion does not have the monopoly on violence.

Teempakguy:
well, this is possible. . . . i subscribe to this anyway.
however, what i will not stand for is muslims justifying the violence by claiming that christians have done worse. that is in bad taste.

Yes, I agree with you that Islamic extremism comes from places with little or no education. Poverty and no education seem to create a toxic mix when combined with Islam.

@Battling Islamic extremism: while I agree with you that removing the violent parts of the Koran would help, I don't think this will ever happen. I read somewhere that tampering with the words of the Koran is supposed to be a huge anathema (and you know what that would lead to). I do strongly agree though that waging war against extremism would likely lead to more extremism (it would likely just create more extremists). The best way would be through creating systems that remove inequality, creating systems that enable young people to feel like they have hope in their economic future, and removing systems of oppression that cause young people to radicalize.

Teempakguy:
bro, i'm not disagreeing.
have you noticed that these extremist muslims come from places with little or no education?
i think it has a lot to do with the way religion itself is. without education, people become savages when indoctrinated with religion. and that is a very big problem.

you can't argue however, that a very good way to stop islam violence would be to wage war against extremist islam. would you? one way would be to officially remove those xenophobic and extremist versions from the qu'ran officially. if they can do that, then what do you think will happen?

Ok . I didn't think you were Christian. But please reread the part of my post about systematic violence in the name of modern Christianity.

I also do agree with you that there are several modern factions of modern Islam that are barbaric and violent, but it is not fair to throw most or all Muslims in this bucket. These violent factions are in the minority. Throwing all Muslims into this bucket of violence would erode our level of empathy towards the mostly Muslim victims of jidahists and national governments. For example, Boko Haram's victims have been mostly Muslim. The civilian collateral damage from the Nigerian military's attacks on Boko Haram also have been mostly Muslim. Also, most of ISIS's victims have been Muslim, but the civilian collateral damage from foreign bombs have also been mostly Muslim.

Teempakguy:
okay. here is the thing. i'm also not christian. i'm atheist. however, my entire point is based on the fact that islam is violent now. however, they should do something about it. christians have been violent in the past. and the only other thing with associate with eras like that is ignorance and superstitions. so islam should stop being violent.

Bros relax. I wasn't attacking you. I just sometimes get peeved when Islam is accused of being more violent than Christianity; to me this point is historically untrue. Please reread my post. I only partially disagreed with you and didn't attack you. Also, I didn't infer that you were Christian. If I did, I apologize. Abeg relax dude.

In any case, I'm not Muslim and I've never been.

My point is that Christianity and Islam are both very violent. Modern Christianity is often violent in a sophisticated and more systematic and sanitized way -- e.g. George W. Bush said he was doing God's work when he decided to invade Iraq of which hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians are now dead thanks to American bombs. America's unconditional support of Israel's uncontrolled murder and oppression of Palestinians is heavily fueled by the unparalleled support of its evangelical Christians (amongst other reasons). This sort of violence has the exact same lethal impact (though sometimes more) as the sort of violence that the Islamic jihadists inflict; the only difference is that the former is more sanitized while the latter is barbaric. By the way my point is that the worst of both religions, even in this modern age, are equivalent. Also, I assert that most Muslims and most Christians do not typify the worst of their respective religions.

Even though I am not theistic anymore (you can read my Nairaland posts like this or this), the humanist and ethical side of me sees the depredation that the worst of both Christianity and Islam are responsible for. That I point out this equality of violence doesn't make me religious. You are welcome to disagree with me, but rushing to label me a Muslim is unnecessary.

To your point about the Old Testament not being part of Christianity, I disagree. Yahweh claims to be the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore according to the Bible, the Yahweh of the Old Testament is the same as the Yahweh of the New Testament. In the New Testament, Jesus said he came not to abolish the law (i.e. Old Testament Mosaic laws) but to fulfill the law (i.e. encourage people to adhere to the same Old Testament laws in a more spiritual and meaningful way though not literally). The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, and Christians selectively pick and choose what part of the Old Testament they will follow. Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus or any of the apostles disavow the spirit of the Old Testament. I am willing to have the Old Testament/New Testament conversation if you'd like, as I once was very invested in the truth claims of the Bible. Plus, I think Jesus was an awesome dude though I don't think he was divine.

Once again, disagreeing with you is not attacking you.

Teempakguy:
you know, the problem i have with you muslims is that, anytime your religion is challenged, when you're not calling for deaths, you instantly proceed to generalize that the person condemning your religion is christian. you then conclude that what you guys are doing is OK because christians are doing it. why? it's like you're forever doomed to copy christians.
that's just one point. the second is, you just said yourself that what muslims are doing today is what christians have did in the past. doesn't that imply backwardness? i mean, the spanish inquisition was over 300 years ago. the crusades over 1500 years ago. those ages are characterized by general foolishness, stupidity and ignorance on the part of all christians. are you now implying that modern muslims are equally mentally challenged?

concerning your last line, well . . . the old testament is not christianity at all. it's judaism. and it's also the backbone of islam as well. everything that happened in the old testament is confirmed to be true and to be the will of allah. the prophets.{i.e musa, yusuf, this jonah guy.} are all confirmed to be the prophets of allah. so, that point does not hold any water. or liquid . . .

Chill out bro. Christianity was equally as dumb and irrationally violent as Islam for most of its two-thousand-year history. Actually, one could argue that Christianity was much more violent (slavery, The Spanish Inquisition, asinine murders of heretics, etc) though I can't quantitatively prove this. Christians as a collective were as brainlessly violent as today's jihadist islamists, but for a much longer period. IMO, Christianity evolved because of reformers such as Martin Luther and others. Islam for the most part has successfully resisted humanistic theological reformers of this nature.

I don't think it is fair for you to lump all modern Muslims into the same "dumb" category. Let's call a spade a spade but let's not exaggerate. Until the last two centuries or so, most Christians were "irrevocably dumb" and equally as irrational in their faith.

However, while I'm not theist anymore I agree with you that I would be more scared to debate a Muslim on theism than I would a Christian, on average. I remember that as a Christian in secondary school, a number of Muslim students would visibly go berserk whenever any Christian made an inflammatory statement about Mohammed. I used to think that a subset of them had a shorter fuse than the craziest of the Christians.

All in all, I agree with you that today's Muslims (on average) have a less rationalized faith than Christians. But this is not a compliment to Christians -- they were as irrational (on average) in the past as some modern Muslims.

Islam (in comparison with New Testament Christianity) puts ideology over people. But then Old Testament Christianity is exactly equivalent to the worst of Islam.

Teempakguy:
that is just ONE problem.
unlike christians, muslims DEFY logic instead of rationalizing it. you tell a christian that God doesn't answer prayers because he doesn't exist, they start THINKING for a moment, before they then come up with an excuse. you tell a muslim that, and the next thing you know, they will start shouting allah is great, and calling for your execution WITHOUT EVEN THINKING. like, wtf?! they refuse to reason, refuse to consider AnyThing besides that religion and anyone who challenges their opinions is seen instantly as an enemy.

that is just shocking.

Teempakguy:
just a bunch of people making stuff up. their stupidity amazes me.

most people think atheists avoid muslims sometimes because they are afraid. well, no. it's just that muslims are so irrevocably dumb and close minded, it's easier for a camel(hahahaha) to pass through a needle's eye, than for logic to pass through their mush brains.


i mean, a religion whose starter is evil incarnate, having followers convinced that they will make heaven to Bleep virgins by BEING evil incarnates, how can one remedy such eternal stupidity?