₦airaland Forum

BB all the way.

If we want change in our country then its time to stand up and be counted. For those voting on ethnic or religious lines, its sad, am from the Niger Delta and sincerely want a niger Deltan but GEJ does not have what it takes.

BB partnership will shake the nation out of this slumber we are in. They will have their challenges but they are credible and honest men.

chukwudi44:
If a man voluntarily decides to contribute 10% of his income to anybody ,who are my to question that?


But If that decision is based on misinformation or threats of curse then I have every right to educate him on that.


It is simply 419 to tell people that God asked them to pay money to you when there is no such directive in the bible.

Ok so your fight is to redeem the misinformed, alleluia, misinformed take heed to the gospel of chukwudi44

I dont get this one also, might be a bit biased here since I am a tither but somethin to note is that when it gets to this issue, I am told over and over again that it is of the OLD TESTAMENT.

But again, the same crusaders that say this, quote the OLD TESTAMENT to justify other issues,

I understand the two divides and the issues clearly, but hey how can it be that Christ died to deliver us and it was actualy for freedom that he died so hence the concpt of the free will giving, but in the context of the free will if I choose with all my heart that it should be 10% or better still I choose to tithe, cos I believe I should, since I am not fully persuaded not to,   does it not boil down to be fully persuaded in your spirit", I dare say (might be wrong and not afraid to) that God wants some of to be tithers and some as not , is it really relevant to him in the grand scheme,

Keep on the debates if you choose, but note it wont end. 

Shallom

You folks dont give up, its laughable the time spent in here while souls are perishing, 

I just dont get it, everyoone feels they are so right, then who is wrong??

I totally disagree with most things Oyaks does and the whole CEC structure. Recently, I heard their members are/will be ordered to leave face book to join the church's own social network. Such a joke, the hold the church has on its members is a bit scary.

That said there are a few positives about CEC have met some very decent christains from CEC whom I respect so I cant reconcile it, how can it be, , does that mean this or that and I leave it at that, , I realise I cant understand everything.

The so called modern day crusaders should take heed, its easy to point the spec in another's eyes. CEC, Redeem are out there doing something (right or wrong I dont know so dont ask me), hard for me to admit but they do actually change lives, so as a result of been out there there are facing scrutiny.

I challenge the modern day crusaders to identify their worship centres and lets see if its blameless. Let them face the level of scrutiny and lets see if they are 100%

Summary this life is a personal thing, its between you and your God. Forget the churches, the structures and concentrate on the brethren, if you believe you brother has erred tell him clearly and firmly, if he refuses leave him or better pray for him.

I have asked all day and no member of CEC can confirm if this was official or not.

@ osaxx appears u are an embassy member so can you please confirm there was an official charge.

Iysayah:
of course i dont know, like you, if there was actually a charge or not. Neither should you or i be willing to criticize without having full proof of accusation.

@ Iysayah do you attend CEC. I was asking Embassy members. Is there an Embassy member here can they be confirm if this was an official charge or not.

Zikkyy:
Yes, i know you have some crowd. But the money was useless as a form of control, even mon1881 got in for free. You have the security agents, crowd control marshals, ushers to thank for being able to achieve some form of control.

Was the charge official or not. Pls can an embassy brethren answer. Yes some might be it, but was it an official charge or not.

Iysayah:
thats what we talking about.he didnt pay and he got in, so imagine how many devoted christians beat this measure. nigerians! sharp people!. it was simply wrong and the pastor is not necessarily to be blamed for this like we all like to do, should he be at the gate and as well at the podium?

So can we understand this clearly. Was there a charge or not?

Pat Utomi is definately intelligent but as a leader I have my reservations. He has stated his piece on VW and somone raised questions on bank PhB.

The issue with Nigerian executives lies around the pegs of the office. Its too good to let go off, so you hang on even when you are being disgrased. Why remain the MD of a company where your opinions are not valued. The option is to resign, we see it every day in the west.

Anyway, he might make a good adviser, but a leader for a country with complications and diversity as Nigeria, Utomi wont cut. He can be part of the "coalition of the willing", but we need stronger progressives to dismantle the "baddos".

Author it should be High on abuses and NO economics.

Frankly, this is pathetic. I dislike Atiku (with a passion) and believe he is part of the problem but geez the man has raised very valid issues, and this is what the presidency can come up with.

More shocking is the fact that the so called finance minister from Goldman Sachs has nothing to say.

Where are all the journalist they should be at the gate of the Ministry of Finance seeking for an official position.

What a joke of a country.

Kudos to Atiku (hate saying this) but he has directed the debate to issues and not personality or tribe. Thumbs up to who ever advised him.

You know its so easy for the "unconverted" to wind up Christian folks. All they have to do is come up with stuff like this or others like"tithe or no tithe" or such mundane things and thats it, the camps start coming out,

To all camps, are you not guilty of what you are accusing the other of ??

In my opinion pls lets stop this, have you guys ever considered that "we know in parts"

You guys can go on and on and on and on, the question is does it edify? For those that feel this is the only way to expose what they think is heresy, i ask you to think again?

I read these threads at times especially the tithe ones and I only just wonder, there is so much bitterness and pride at the end of the day gains nothing, God please help your kids, really we should be examining ourselves,

Shalom

JeSoul:
my brother, I think now we're getting too technical. Jesus said "go out and make disciples". We are witnessing every second to the people we're with at work, at school, at the grocery store, even here online by our words and actions. "Reaching the lost" does not have to take on the modern connotation of an organized group of people, heading out to the street to hand out tracts - and just because they are a group of christians - together - does not mean they are having "church" at that very moment. I hope this makes sense?
of God's creation. I know your deeds, that[b] you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth[/b][/color]

Sis, thanks again as a final input, i think we need to be careful on how we perceive this concept of "modern connotation", this model of going out in 2's or 3's was introduced by Jesus, see Luke 10 below. It is a very scriptural practise through out the NT.

In summary my take is that issues like "mega church" where the unconverted should be reached are really non-issues a distraction, a close look on most practises of the so-called modern church suggest they have scriptural leanings.

God bless you richly.

Luke 10: 1. After this the Lord appointed seventy-twoa others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves

KunleOshob:
Well i don't have any link i can refer you to at the moment but it is a known fact that Bakare has been an open critic of RCCG and Pastor Adeboye for several years now, he was a senior pastor in RCCG so he should know first hand the hypocrisy going on there which some of us are only getting to know in the last couple of years.

@ Kunle, Thanks but I am not privy to those facts, you might be right on the reasons he left RCCG but again you might be wrong unless we can verify the "facts". Some of us have been away a bit from Nigeria so we really cant tell of these well known facts, there are a lot of stories which often upon close scrutiny can not be verified, really just stories of what people heard or think.

It does however suggest the topic of the thread an offshoot of the title of the story is extremely misleading because it does not answer "why i quit Redeemed church". It has more to do with politics to me.

KunleOshob:
On the contrary Pastor Bakare left RCCG becos of the deceit and the hypocrisy in the church that many did not know then, nowpeople are getting wiser and seeing that RCCG is just a business conglomerate.

@kunle Please i read the first post and the links and all, but I couldn't really see where Tunde Bakare stated why he left RCCG, there were a lot of issues raised there mainly political and then Oyedapo but on RCCG I couldnt see anything.

Please can you provide the details i.e. link or maybe just copy out the whole story and bolden the part of where Tunde Bakare gave his reasons. Cheers

nuella2:
@ Enigma

Even if two or three christians that gather for fellowship, they are to grow. Is not a village meeting, if they know what they are doin, they will certainly go out and preach the gospel to people. So lets say they bring in two converts every month, before the end of the year they will have atleast 24 members added to them. Members were added to the the early church daily, so the gathering should not just be a bible discussion class and eat meat pie without preaching the gospel. Such a gathering is unfruitful. My point is even if they start small in ten years time they will not be small, unless the gathering is for critics who do no work but only talk about whats wrong in other gatherings. Personally i cant be part of a group that do not atleast go out to preach the gospel once a month. Then what is the gathering for?

Hmm, rightly said sis.

JeSoul:
Spoken like a wise man .
Oh but we can Away.

If we've established that the church is primarily and mostly for believers, and it will be rare that unbelievers will be in their midst - then InesQor is not wrong in saying "the unsaved are meant to be reached outside the church". Meant - being the operative word.

Now if InesQor had said "the unsaved cannot or should not be reached inside of a church" then that will be wrong.

Sis, okay point taken, but I still have this question then "how and where do we reach the unsaved?". Lets note that if for example me, you and Kunle meet to go evangelising (then we the "church", ie people not building) are going to be in some way "fellowshiping" or let me use a less contentious word "talking" with the unbeliever, in my opinion thats the church meeting.

My point being then that the presence of the unconverted has nothing really to do with the church or our fellowships, their presence does nothing to hinder or dilute our gathering, for point of emphasis their presence does not turn my fellowship with you and Kunle to a social gathering, it does not. So why then are we somehow concerned that there are many of the unconverted in the big church gatherings, It does not make those gatherings in any way a club or social gathering.

away4real:
Quote from: KunleOshob on April 12, 2010, 04:44 PM
The large size of churches we have today actually don't have any scriptural basis, however i would not condem it as wrong but true fellowship is lacking in churches of such large size. In the early churches they used to share meals, there was always feasting which formed an essential part of the fellowship but today it is completely missing except for the occassional holy communion were tiny rations of bread and "wine"[as opposed to full meals] are given out in observation of Jesus commandment. The mordern church as tried to re-enact the close knit fellowship which the early church had through house fellowships and house cells but the sharing of meals is mostly missing in these fellowships and some of them still collect "offerings" which they re-mit to the church for what ever purpose. But large congregations [not churches] are not entirely unscriptural as Jesus used to have several open air sermons in which thousands were recorded to attend. A very obvious example was when Jesus fed 5,000 men after one of his sermons. In summary i won't condenm large church congregations as long as they provide a platform for true fellowship, but then again large congregations are unnecessary as i don't see any benefit in it for the congregation themselves apart from the intituitional church that stands to make more money from a larger congregation.


@ Kunle in the light of the scripture provided by Analytical below, please could you explain your comments in bold. It does appears the "modern" church approach is definately scriptural. I think the offering issue is very secondary most house groups are not in the habit of collecting money, and you rightly used "some" in your analysis, so lets leave the offetory issue out.

1 Cor 11
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

@ Kunle pls can you help throw more light on the question above.

davidylan:
Your post is as usual spot on! But it is imperative to say this . . . no everyone here i'm sure believes in fellowship together whether in a large or small congregation . . .

however you shld also note one important thing in the verses you quoted, even though they met in large synagogues . . . one thing was not forgotten . . . fellowship from house to house! This is something that has virtually disappeared from our large empires today.

I dont know about empires, so I will assume you mean the "churches" today. I thought it was stated severally that the house to hose fellowship is what the house groups/cells/house fellowship/bible study groups (whatever name it is called) is meant to achieve.

Virtually all big church groups have smaller units, perhaps if you are in a place that has none, you can start one.

JeSoul:
Brotherly , there is no one verse that says "the church is for christians only", see

  1 Cor 14: So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

So here we readily see the[b] church [/b] was the gathering of believers. However, this is not to say an unbeliever is banned completely from going in as indeed we see the above. But it is worthy to note that this is a sharp contrast from today where most "churches" are an all-purpose social gathering spot for pretty much everyone. Cheers!

Sisterly, thanks, i do totally agree with you and am sure many christains desire a church that is worthy of our lord. But I have long ago learnt the church will not be a perfect place until our lord comes, with that in mind I am always slow to speak when it comes to some matters.

@ @ InesQor please if you still have any input please help, though Jesoul has explained clearly the rationale, so we really[b] cant [/b] say that the unsaved are meant to be reached outside the church.

It would help if when issues like these are being discussed add ons like its all because of 10% or its because of money are ommitted, it irritates me as a christain. I am in no way saying that opinions should not be stated but then create a thread on the relationship between tithe and church numbers and bash there. Its wrong to always chip such comments in, for those that do not understand or not met the Lord it can be a put off and that is not what we want, is it?

Sisterly, please you can help me with the definition of the church?

My question is really a simple one, scriptural reference to that notion.

I am trying to highlight something here and I hope we all can see it. Its the practicality or the rigidity of saying unbelievers are not wellcome in our church (gathering of the called out ones).ie, we should somehow have a clearly defined outside place where we can some how preach the good news to only the unconverted then afterwards allow them into our "gatherings of the called out ones". Is this really scriptural?

I do understand the point you are making by asking for the definition but again is there a scriptural reference or is it just based on exposition.

I really want to know if there was such a scriptural reference or if its really just an exposition of what ineqour thought church should be. So please help if there is one.

Quote from: KunleOshob on April 12, 2010, 04:44 PM
The large size of churches we have today actually don't have any scriptural basis, however i would not condem it as wrong but true fellowship is lacking in churches of such large size. In the early churches they used to share meals, there was always feasting which formed an essential part of the fellowship but today it is completely missing except for the occassional holy communion were tiny rations of bread and "wine"[as opposed to full meals] are given out in observation of Jesus commandment. The mordern church as tried to re-enact the close knit fellowship which the early church had through house fellowships and house cells but the sharing of meals is mostly missing in these fellowships and some of them still collect "offerings" which they re-mit to the church for what ever purpose. But large congregations [not churches] are not entirely unscriptural as Jesus used to have several open air sermons in which thousands were recorded to attend. A very obvious example was when Jesus fed 5,000 men after one of his sermons. In summary i won't condenm large church congregations as long as they provide a platform for true fellowship, but then again large congregations are unnecessary as i don't see any benefit in it for the congregation themselves apart from the intituitional church that stands to make more money from a larger congregation.


@ Kunle in the light of the scripture provided by Analytical below, please could you explain your comments in bold. It does appears the "modern" church approach is definately scriptural. I think the offering issue is very secondary most house groups are not in the habit of collecting money, and you rightly used "some" in your analysis, so lets leave the offetory issue out.

1 Cor 11
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

@ InesQor, please you made the below comments in one of the pages on this threads. Can you provide scriptures to back the statements in bold. Thanks.

The unsaved are meant to be reached OUTSIDE the church, not brought into church to increase attendance, and then cajoled with an altar call and threatened with hell fire into making a decision, and then told to keep paying 10% of their income to guarantee their continuity in God.

It's putting the cart before the horse. I pity the horse, I guess.

nuclearboy:
Now I know why you won Poster of the year!

@Jesoul,

My revered sister, this re-defining is actually a small part of it. Don't forget their "daddy" said Stephen was killed because he didn't know God enough. When the Bible says "call no man on earth your father", I take that to mean God is "daddy" Once another person then is given that tag, you've named your "god" and his "word" must be numero uno! And in this "god's" word (the HOLY ROR) remission is diffferent from forgiveness.

@ nuclearboy, i also find it funny and amazing all the "daddy" and "papa" talk so really I find it patronizing and just meant for people to feel good with themselves.

But then can you please explain what Paul meant in this 2 scriptures: Titus 1:4, 1 Timothy 1: 2

aletheia:
1. My material blessings are not different from what WoF preach. In no way different from what a Muslim or Buddhist enjoys. In fact the richest men in the world in materialistic terms are not believers in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. And do you know why they all have these material blessings as well? Here is the reason:
2. You are presenting a rather simplistic argument and putting words into my mouth. Who on this thread has said that someone saying that God blesses is a false prophet. At issue here is the nature of the gospel that these WoF preachers preach.

So now its my turn to ask you a few questions.
1. What is the gospel of Jesus Christ? Can you give me a succinct, scriptural answer? I await your response.

Thanks for your response. I will get back to your responses but let me provide you the answers.
First, in terms of my walk with God i take a very simplistic view, i.e. i keep it very simple.

What is the gospel of Jesus Christ? I will take a simple view: Foundation:Romans 10: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. You can also cross reference with Acts 16:31. Subsequently Romans 12: 1-2 which i know u can quote off hand.
In the process of renewing your mind you begin to learn the precepts of Jesus, his life, his death and his ressurection. His command to us to love and live in love, worship, fellowship and the many "doctrinal issues". Put simply to me the gospel of Jesus is that GOOD NEWS that i can be saved because he died for me.

sonya4all:
Please may i knw the name of the church ,so as to join u.Tnks

"Well i must report myself again to this forum, i was in "church" again yesterday i attended the church petres_007 invited me to last week and i must report again it was really a breath of fresh air. Infact for the first time in a very long time i was actually looking forward to going to church and in attending it i was truely blessed. I was able to learn a lot unlike before when i found a lot of loop holes in the shallow dogmatic sermons which now pervade most of our churches. One of the reasons i wanted to stop going to church was becos i wasn't learning or gaining any thing but with crown bible church it is really different, here the truth is not only being spoken it is being practised. With that i might just rescind on the decision i made at the beginning of this thread and become a regular member of this church. Once again thanx to petres_007 for extending me the invitation". Quote from Kunle

@ kunle, please is there a link to the Crown Bible Church?

@aletheia Thanks again for your response.

In terms of clarity. I am trying to distinguish how your own material blessing is different from the material blessings that perhaps the WOF teachers preach. Please recall you did not provide scriptures to back your own material blessings.

How is it then okay that you are blessed materially but if anyone else says he is blessed materially or says to others that God does bless materially he faces the risk of being called a false prophet.

aisha2:
I really wish you will spend time and really study the word of God. I used to be like you, Then my Mom and Sister both died from Cancer in 6 months, then i turned completely away from God because i believed that it was not our portion, why should they die when God had promised us divine health. However, after six months of turning away from God like the crowd who on monday hailed him and King and on wednesday screamed crucify Him, but i started reading the bible myself and read all the scriptures myself and saw that most times its quoted out of context and never read through.
I pray for you that it wont take my kind of expereince to bring you to really worshiping God

My heart felt condolence to you on the loss of your mom and Sister. I have not loss any loved one but believe me i know what you are talking about.

But for the basis of this debate lets come back to my questions?

@ aletheia. Thanks for your answers though the quotations were on totally different issues.

You have agreed that God blesses you materially so how do we know you are not serving him because of the blessings i.e. one in the crowd that said Hossana and then crucify him.

Please tell if God has blessed you materially, how are you different ?

Please lets not mix all the issues, this has nothing to do with signs and wonders accredited to any so called messenger of God, signs and wonders as you have rightly noted is not a sufficeint condition for anything. Leave those that are preaching heresy and those you consider false teachers out of this now, there are a lot of them out there.

@ nuclearboy would have been nice if you shared your convictions.

First let me correct your post no where did i ask about or mention anything on "obeying" thats quite mischevious.

Please refer to my statement on what binds us all together "salvation" and I will not to be hypcritical so i will answer you. Using your words "Is it only blessing, healing and ??, !!!!! us that God does today? Simple answer NO

@ aisha2, agreed that "some" might get the bible a little bit twisted and have wrong motives, but still something binds every born again christain together ie. the cross and our salvation.

I do have a question to you, Kunle, aletheia and ,  Given all the suffering and tribulations of this earthly world which you have rightly highlighted but

1. Does God still bless today i.e. in terms of material blessings?

2. Does God heal the sick today?

3. Now on a personal note Does God interfere in your life affairs and if he does why?

Please provide answers with scripturesand if you dont mind please also provide personal life experiences. Thanks

@ Deepsight, I have one question for you and please do be honest.

At what age would you want your daughter to engage sexually? and would it be in several relationships with a woman, a man or with both.