MizJanet:
Of course, nobody said they were buried in the same grave.

1king 24:6 , was laid to rest with his fathers simply mean he was buried alongside his fathers, so where are his fathers starting from David laid to sleep ? Judah or Babylon

I thought your book said the dead are not alive - isaiah 26:14

Hey , So it was an ordinary case that the isreaites bury as samuel , while the real Samuel lives on , the real Samuel is alive, never died. That simply means the real Jesus didnt die , only his cover dies. Uv been scammed

JESUS DIDNT DIE , ONLY HIS FLESH DIES

Lols , his death cant stop sin , death and sickness ? hope you know he himself didnt die , only his flesh died.

This thread is way past its bedtime. Let's tuck it in please. We are back to where we left off in page three.

MizJanet:
I think the guy is speaking with reference to War

Whether it is used in reference to war or not; to be "delivered into someone's hand" does not necessarily mean to "kill".

Reference or context is immaterial here.

MizJanet:
I Know You Wont agree with Josephus , Until I Show you how ridiculous your claims are.

, No part of your religious book say so.

So we should say or assume Nebuchadnezzar killed Jehoiakim, even though the scripture never said so?

And what do you mean that the bible didn't say Nebuchadnezzar didn't kill him?

Scripture said he bound him in fetters. Do you kill people and then bind them in fetters?

MizJanet:
Really? Whats wrong with you and your edited religious book, he was captive to babylon and died there , yet jehoakim died in Judah

"then Jehoakim was laid to Rest with his forefathers' 1king 24:2, 6

Mayb his forefathers were laid in babylon

Drink this hot tea , Jehoakim was buried in Judah (2kings 24:6 .

Show me where this exact phrase was used in scripture? That Jehoiakim was "laid to rest with his forefathers."

What my own bible said was that, Jehoiakim "slept with his fathers"

And that expression doesn't always mean they were buried in the same place.

MizJanet:
Dont digress: what lead to this is whether Saul was killed by philistines or not, which may mean the other guy is using that phrase with reference to war not general usage.

Reference to war or general usage does not change the definition of "being in someone's hands" to mean "to kill".

You may or may not kill someone that is "delivered into your hands". Yet if you overpower or subdue a person in any sense, he or she has still been "delivered into your hands."

It doesn't always mean to kill, even in the context of war. It can mean to take captive, like in the case Jehoiakim.

The fact that the Philistines didn't literally kill Saul doesn't mean he still wasn't delivered into their hands as Samuel predicted. They subdued him, didn't they?

MizJanet:
Back to you : i said the story of saul at endor prove that other religions that practice speaking with the dead is good, you said "no, devil dont hav power to bring death anymore",

Necromancy (conjuring spirits) is wrong. It was wrong in the old testament days and it is still wrong now. But it was indeed truly possible then when the devil had the power of death.

Now I believe it's a lie if any medium still claims they can conjur real spirits of the dead. The devil no longer commands such authority.

MizJanet:
So who is presently responsible for the death brought on humans everyday, since devil cant cause death anymore?

Having the power of death does not mean having the power to cause death or to kill. God, men, angels, the devil could kill.

The wages of sin is still death; that hasn't changed.

I believe having the power of death means having the keys of death and of hades. It means to be in possession or control of the souls of the dead.

MizJanet:
Why do people still die , if truly ur jesus have bring the power of death to nothing ?

The same reason people still sin even though Jesus has shed his blood for the sin of the world.

And the same reason people still fall sick even though Jesus has borne stripes for our healing.

Figure that out and you will answer your own question.

Shalom

MizJanet:
you push his own bible aside and present yours, hilarious xtians

I don't push his own bible aside, I correct his interpretation. There's a difference.

MizJanet:
Dont just google and paste , the above context is not of WAR.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

That the expression "delivered into someone's hands" does not necessarily always mean "to kill". It is a general term meaning "to subdue or be subject to".

It can be used in the normal context it was used by Abraham. Trying to make it always mean "to kill" is a very wrong interpretation.

And that's the correction I made there.

MizJanet:
@bold , according to Jewish Historian named Josephus Nebuchadnezzar killed Jehoiakim and throw his corpse over the walls of Jerusalem. And that goes parallel with Jeremiah 22: 18,19 that Jehoiakim will be buried like an he - ass and his corpse will be thrown out of Jerusalem walls.

Josephus is a wonderful historian, but he is not an authority in doctrine.

According to scripture; Nebuchadnezzar did not kill Jehoiakim.

2Chronicles 36v6 -And against him (Jehoiakim) came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and bound him in fetters, to carry him to Babylon.

Nebuchadnezzar carried Jehoiakim captive to Babylon as a prisoner of war. And he died there. But Nebuchadnezzar did not kill him.

Jeremiah 22v18-19 -Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning Jehoiakim.... He shall be buried with the burial of an ass, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.

This verse talked about how and where he shall be buried. Meaning he was buried like an animal, beyond the gates of Jerusalem. He was not buried like a king or in the burying place of the kings like his fathers.

But Nebuchadnezzer didn't kill him. And this verse didn't say so either.

Let's not digress though.

The point being addressed is, Does being "delivered into someone's hands" always mean to be killed by someone?

And the scripture shows clearly that that is not so; infact it can be used in a context that has no bloodshed at all.

That's what I'm showing here.

CAPTIVATOR:


Wow ! See twisting , fall into the hands doesnt mean philistines will kill Saul .

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE GIVEN INTO THE HANDS OF ANOTHER:

" Siserah will fall into the hand of a woman" 1sam 4:9 simply means a woman will KILL HIM DEAD ( 1SAM 4:21)

Please please.

To be delivered into someone's hands does not mean to kill the person. It means to subdue, to overpower, or to overcome. It doesn't mean to kill

Genesis 16v6 -But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee.

Was Abram telling Sarai to kill Hagar? Or he meant Hagar is under subjection to Sarai.

Another verse;

Daniel 1v2 -And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his (Nebuchadnezzar's) hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into Shinar to the house of his god.

Nebuchadnezzar did not kill Jehoiakim.

To "be delivered into someone's hands" is to be overpowered, overcome or subdued under someone.

The Philistines overpowered and subdued Saul and Israel. And that was what Samuel prophesied.

Can you see? Who is twisting the word now?

Shalom

CAPTIVATOR:


Miss ... There is no contradiction, the truth is that 3 persons are connected with saul's death

- Saul himself , ( he deliberately killed himself to avoid fallin into the hands of the philistines as foretold . Destroying the spiritmedium prophecy (1sam 31:4)

- the philistines slain saul , pls this is not a contradiction, they actuall slain him BUT THAT WAS AFTER HE HAD DIED . Here is the report

" the next day, when the philistines came to strip the slain, they found SAUL and his three sons fallen on mount Giboa, so they cut off his head ." 1sam 31: 8,9 thats it . They did but that was after he had slain himself .

- an Amalekite man also claimed to kill saul , though this was claerly a lie ( 2sam 1:3-16)

You know, on a second reading of that verse; I saw that Samuel didn't even say the Philistines would kill Saul. Samuel said Saul would be delivered into the hands of the Philistines.

You lied that Samuel said the Philistines would kill Saul; which he didn't say. Then you said the Philistines didn't kill Saul, meaning what Samuel said didn't happen, when he didn't even say that.

Everything Samuel said came to pass.

These are what Samuel said:

1. He said God will deliver Israel into the hands of the Philistines.

1Samuel 28v19 -Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the philistines:

Was Israel delivered into the hands of the Philistines? YES

1Samuel 31v7 -And when the men of Israel that were on the other side of the valley, and they that were on the other side Jordan, saw that the men of Israel fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook the cities, and fled; and the Philistines came and dwelt in them.

God delivered Israel into the hands of the Philistines as Samuel said.

2. He said God will deliver Saul into the hands of the Philistines.

1Samuel 28v19 -Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the philistines:

Was Saul delivered into the hands of the Philistines? YES.

1Samuel 31v9-10 - And they cut off his (Saul's) head, and stripped off his armour, and sent (them) into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.

And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Beth-shan.

Was Saul delivered into the hands of the Philistines? This verses admits so.

You lied that Samuel said Saul would be killed by the Philistines. He didn't say so; he said Saul would be delivered into the hands of the Philistines. And he was.

Saul was delivered into the hands of the Philistines as Samuel said.

3. He said that Saul and his sons would all die together the next day and be with him in sheol.

1Samuel 28v19 -...and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me:

Did Saul and his sons all die that next day? YES.

1Samuel 31v6 - So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.

Saul and his sons died that same day together, as Samuel said.

4. He said God will deliver the host (armies) of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.

1Samuel 28v19 -...the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Was the armies of Israel delivered as well into the hands of the philistines? YES.

1Samuel 31v1 -Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa.

1Samuel 31v6 -So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day.

The armies of Israel were delivered into the hands of the Philistines as Samuel said.

Everything Samuel predicted came to pass.

Saul was delivered into the hands of the philistines as Samuel predicted. Whether Saul killed himself or not; he was delivered into the hands of the philistines. Which was exactly what Samuel predicted.


Shalom.

CAPTIVATOR:
’
1pet 4:6— Who were “the dead” to whom “the good news was
Declared”? These were ones who were ‘dead in their
trespasses and sins,’ or who were spiritually dead,
before they heard the good news. (
Eph. 2:1) After putting
faith in the good news, though, they began to “live”
spiritually.

Even here , the meaning of death is clear , after hearin the good news they cease the former way of life listed in verse 2 and 3 of 1peter chapter 4

Lol.

You know why I'm laughing. The person beside me as I was writing my previous post actually said "just wait and see, he will tell you that it is symbolic death, not literal death".

And he was right.

I guess the death of Samuel must have been symbolic too, for him to still be able to speak after death. Since the bible kept saying, "And Samuel said".

Anyway, its ok.

Shalom

CAPTIVATOR:
WAS IT SAMUEL? .


In 1sam 25:1 we are told that samuel is DEAD and had been buried .

But before narating saul's ordeal with a spirit medium, we are told for the second time.

1sam 28:3 " NOW samuel had died, and all isreal had mourned him and had buried him (samuel) in ramah" .

This clears all doubt , and re inforce the fact that the real Samuel , the mouth pieice of God had died . " and as for the dead , they know nothing at all" ecc 9:5

" for there is no knowledge nor wisodom in sheo'l" ecc 9:10.

Clearly, what appears to saul with high knowledge about saul is clearly not samuel but a demon with a spirit of prediction (act 16:16) , interestingly saul himself didnt see, rather he only presume what appear to be samuel from description.

Is it Samuel? What do you think? Who did the bible say it was?

The young girl with the spirit of divination that was following after the apostles. Did the bible say about her, "And "Moses or James" said, These men are the servants of the most high God"?

The bible will not call a spirit of divination by another name or call a familiar spirit Samuel. If it was not Samuel, the bible won't say it was.

Scriptures can be ambiguous with the truth. But the scriptures will never be specific with what is not true. Coz that would be a lie.

Scripture specifically called that person Samuel. Because that was Samuel.

That was the spirit of Samuel. Samuel was dead and buried in flesh, but his soul was alive and conscious in sheol

This stubborn refusal to agree that "death is not the cessation of existence" is really getting ridiculous.

1Peter 4v6 -For this cause was the gospel preached also to them THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

If there is no consciousness of the human spirit after death, how can Jesus preach to them that are dead?

If their souls and spirit didn't stay alive, animate and conscious after death; how could they listen to, understand and respond to the gospel?

How was the gospel preached to those that are dead by Jesus if the spirit of the dead ceases to exist after death?

This attitude of adamant refusal is really ridiculous. Souls and spirits stay alive in sheol or heaven after death.

Hmmm

This is what gets me tired of contributing to a thread. When I see adamant refusal to agree with the scriptures; just because it will crumble your doctrinal opinion.

CAPTIVATOR:
Scriptural perversion at its peak.

There are two options: gain eternal life or be destroyed (john 3:16)

The greek word "aionios" translated eternal means" not ending, for a long time " check strongs concordance.

The greek word "apollumi" translated perish/destroy in john 3:16 means " to bring to ruin, to destroy utterly "

In john 17:3 , Jesus was stating the criteria for getting eternal life and thus avoid utterly destruction which is cutting off from life.

"Eternal life is a HOPE" Titus 1:2

I'm giving you the definition Jesus gave eternal life; you're trying to over-ride it with the definition from concordance.

Yet you claim I'm the one perverting the scriptures.

Jesus said "This is life eternal" not "This is the way to life eternal"

Yet you claim Jesus was only stating the criteria for getting eternal life not defining eternal life.

How far will all this gainsaying and scriptural twisting go?

Jesus said;

John 17v3 -And THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus said eternal life is the knowledge of the Father and the Son. And it comes with receiving Christ through faith.

And secondly, if eternal life is only a future hope, as you said; something we don't have yet. Why will the scriptures say this?

1John 5v13 -These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

See that? Ye have eternal life, not ye shall have eternal life. We have it already (present continuous).

Please, I choose to go with Christ's definition of eternal life. Concordance are good and helpul, I use them too, but they are not infallible. Only the scriptures cannot be broken.

CAPTIVATOR:
That was simply because he died in a conflict with the philistines . BUT we know Saul actually fell upon his Own Sword 1sam 31:1-7.

The bible declared clearly that it was the Philistines that killed Saul

2Samuel 21v12 -...when the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slained Saul in Gilboa:

You say "That was simply because he died in a conflict with the philistines."

I'm sorry, but I can't take your word over the word of scriptures. The scriptures says the Philistines killed him -I go with that.

CAPTIVATOR:
What Saul consult is a familar spirit. demon

King James Bible
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek
me a woman that hath a familiar spirit , That I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar Spirit at Endor.

1Chronicles 10:13-14 (NKJV)
So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD, and also
because he consulted a medium for guidance.

But he did not inquire of the LORD ; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Saul consulted a woman that had a familiar spirit. That's what scripture said.

It was the woman that was possessed with a familiar spirit. It was not the spirit she conjured up that was a familiar spirit.

The bible declared clearly again and again that that was Samuel.

1Samuel 28v12 -And when the woman saw SAMUEL, she cried with a loud voice:

1Samuel 28v15 - And SAMUEL said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

1Samuel 28v16 - Then said SAMUEL, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me,

1Samuel 28v20 -Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of SAMUEL:

Up to five times the scripture kept calling him "Samuel". Not a forgery of Samuel, Not a hologram of him, not a spirit pretending to be him; but him -SAMUEL.

If it wasn't Samuel, the bible will not say that it was Samuel.

I'm sorry, I can't take take your words over the scriptures. The bible said that was Samuel; and I believe the scriptures.

Honestly, I'm seriously tired of debating doctrine with gainsayers. People who will argue and adamantly disagree with what is clearly stated in scripture.

Such people are not after truth, they are after having their opinion planted at all cost. They so babdly want to hold to their doctrinal bias, that they will lock-horns with scripture if need be.

Jesus said this is eternal life, you said that is not eternal life.

Scripture says the philistine killed Saul, you said no, he committed suicide. You think the bible doesn't know that?

If Saul fell on his own sword and the bible still said the philistine killed him, then it means in the eye of the scriptures, it was still the philistines that killed him.

Scripture stated clearly that was Samuel, you say no that was a familiar spirit.

So now you know more than the scriptures? So the bible didn't know it was not Samuel? Or it knew but wanted to keep us thinking it was Samuel?

Wow, just Wow.

There is nothing as bad as adding arrogance to ignorance. Its the worst form of self-delusion.

Bye for now.

johnydon22:


Uuhm so God has hands, nose, eyes, mouth, legs, stomach?

Yes, He has them. Scripture says He does.

1. He has eyes

2Chronicles 16v9 -For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him.

2. He has ears

Numbers 14v28 -Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

3. He has hands

Ezekiel 3v22 -And the hand of the Lord was there upon me; and He said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will talk with thee.

4. He has fingers

Luke 11v20 -But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

5. He has a heart

Genesis 8v21 -And the Lord smelled a sweet savour, and the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;

6. He has a mouth

Isaiah 40v5 -And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, an all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

7. He has feet

Ezekiel 43v7 -And He said unto me, Son of man, Behold the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the modst of the children of Israel for ever,

8. He has a head and has hair

Daniel 7v9 -...and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame,

9. He can smell. So I guess that means He has a nose.

Genesis 8v21 -And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;

These are just some of the parts scriptures assigned to God in describing His form. I'm sure there are more.

Others include, He has a sense of humour and can laugh;

Psalm 37v13 - The Lord shall laugh at him: for He seeth that his day is coming.

Psalm 2v4 -He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

He can also get angry; can be hurt and can be compassionate.

He is all that and more. These are just the few I searched out.

Shalom

MizJanet:


, you now use God as example , despite disallowin it before . hypocrisy

Anyway , the spirit in man and animals IS NOT GOD , AND NEVER LOOK LIKE GOD

" man and the beast have same spirit" ecclesiates 3:19 , so whats that spirit in man and ANimals ?

HAHAHAHA OMG!!!

Please don't let me embarass myself with laughter where I am in public.

So animals too are made in the image of God just like man?

And animals and man look alike in spirit, the way we "look alike" in body?

Wait! Seriously now; jokes apart *straight face*

Before I waste my time any further.

Are you a believer in Christ's death and resurrection? And do you hold the bible in authority as the word of God?

Because, I'm on NL to edify with the word and be edified by the word. Not to waste my time with gainsayers.

The only reason I've indulged your twist and turnings and gainsaying of the scriptures this far; is because I thought you are a born again christian who believes the bible is the word of God, but just doesn't agree with the mainstream christian doctrine of eternal lake of fire and immortality of the human soul.

Is that the issue here? Or you don't even believe at all that the bible is the word of God?

Because I've learnt from experience that you can't use the bible to establish doctrine and validate truth to someone who doesn't even believe it is the word of God.

One will just continue adding comment upon comment, and pages upon pages to a thread without arriving at any conclusion.

So, are you a believer in Christ's death and resurrection; and in the bible as the word of God?

Because that's what will let me know if this discussion is actually going somewhere, or I'm just wasting my time helping you get your thread to page four or to 200 comments.

Shalom

CAPTIVATOR:
If death is not the cessation of existence , it means humans will continue to exist , an automatic everlasting life, WHY WOULD JESUS CLAIM TO GIVE MAKIND EVERLASTING LIFE THRU HIS DEATH IF ITS SOMETHING ALREADY A PART OF US ? Joh 3:16

Go to John 17v3 to see the definition of eternal life.

John 17v3 -And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Eternal life is not merely living forever; demons will live forever in the lake of fire.

According to Jesus, eternal life is the knowledge of the Father and the Son. The knowledge that makes us one in them. Like when Adam "knew" his wife, Eve.

This life was never automatically a part of us, we receive it only after receiving Christ through faith.

1John 5v10 -And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

This life is only in Jesus, and only those in Jesus have it. It is the life of the true knowledge of the Father and the Son, that makes us one in them. Eternal is not just living forever.

CAPTIVATOR:
I wonder where you and your witch controlled samuel got his messages from , scripture says the TRUE GOD IS NOT SPEAKIN TO SAUL ANYMORE.

It wasn't God speaking to Saul, it was Samuel speaking to Saul. A medium conjured up the spirit of Samuel with the power of the devil.

Read the answer I explained to MzJanet on how so.

CAPTIVATOR:
FALSE PREDICTION:

If he is sent from God, Why would he say philistines will kill saul , whereas saul commits suicide ?

There was no false prediction. According to the scriptures; it was the philistines that killed Saul.

2Samuel 21v12 -And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabesh-gilead, which had stolen them from the street of Beth-shan, where the Philistines hand hanged them, when the Philistines had slained Saul in Gilboa:

So whether Saul fell on his own sword or not, according to the bible it was the philistines that killed Saul.

So according to the bible, what Samuel told Saul happened. There was no false prediction.

CAPTIVATOR:
Nobody exist before his birth, and death is a CURSE that return all the living to non existence .
" to dust you shall RETURN" Gen 3:19

Did the Spirit of Jesus also cease to exist, during the three days He was dead and buried? Or it was alive and active?

That would answer your question on whether the soul and spirits of the dead cease to exist once the body is dead and buried.

Shalom

MizJanet:
let me destroy your cries on this parable once and for all time .

1) did Jesus say its the richman and lazarus soul that went there or you infer it yourself

THE BOMB:

You said body dont go to hades , how come the richman has eyes and tongue ? Do soul has tongue , or you want to tell me that if i dig his grave , his tongue wont be there.

Religious cluelessness

Please show me a scripture that says only bodies have those parts; or that souls and spirits don't have hands and eyes and tongues like our bodies.

Is God not a spirit? Does God not have eyes and hands, and mouth? Are angels not spirits? Do angels not have eyes, hands, mouth etc?

Please show me a scripture that portends that only our bodies have those parts and not our spirits and souls. Then you would have made sense. For now I've not seen any bomb.

It is the souls of the rich man and Lazarus that was in sheol.

MizJanet:
Everyone knows it forgery, even people do it nowadays . Or your god operate thru witches too ? So all this herbalists are godsent ?

Listen or read; before Jesus Christ came and took the keys of death and hell; the devil had the power of death and power over sheol.

Rev 1v18 -I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold am alive for evermore, Amen: and have they keys of hades and of death.

Hebrews 2v14 -...that through death He (Jesus) might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The devil had the powers of death and over sheol; and even though he could not raise the dead; he could conjur up the spirits of the dead.

Obviously now he does not have the power of death anymore; that's why the verse said "had the power of death". Jesus now has the keys of death and hell.

So clearly, any medium saying now that he can conjur up the spirit of dead loved ones is actually conjuring evil or familiar spirits pretending to be those dead loved ones.

But it was truly possible before, when the devil still had the power of death and power over sheol.

So that was indeed the spirit of Samuel the prophet. And the scriptures equally confirmed it was Samuel when it said;

And Samuel said to Saul, (1Samuel 28v15)

It didn't say, "and the spirit said to Saul". If the scripture had said "and the spirit said"; then we can have an argument over whether it meant the spirit of Samuel or a familiar spirit pretending to be Samuel.

But the scripture was graciously specific enough to say "and SAMUEL said".

This removes all ambiguities and arguments to the fact that that was the spirit of Samuel the prophet.

Proving that souls stay alive, conscious and animate after death. It is the body that decays and returns to dusts and knows nothing anymore after death NOT THE SOUL.

MizJanet:
Lie , so the first statement "living know that they will die" living is just human body?

The living is alive in body, soul and spirit. When they die, the body decays and turns to dust while the soul and spirit descends to hades or ascends to heaven.

MizJanet:

" you are dust and to dust you shall return" , who is the YOU ?

Jesus Christ also died and was buried. Yet when He was "dead and buried" He was busy preaching to the spirits in prison in sheol.

1Peter 3v18-19 -... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit:

By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

So while Jesus was dead He was busy preaching. How can a dead man be preaching? Which part was dead? Which part was alive preaching?

This further establishes that the spirit stays alive, animate and conscious even after the body is dead and buried. Like the spirit of Samuel and like the soul of the rich man and Lazarus in hades.

Shalom

MizJanet:

, so you knew this yet you hold on to rev 6:9 in a book already said to be presented in symbols and close your eyes to Ezekiel 18:4 And 20 that said


" the soul that sins , SHALL DIE "


And close your eyes again to another verse that said :

" the living dog is better than a dead lion, the livin know that they will die but as for the dead, they KNOW NOTHING at all " Ecclesistes 9:4,5

And close your eyes at isaiah 26:14, contrastin the dead with the living

" they are DEAD, they shall NOT LIVE , impotent in death , They will not rise up" .


...............................o..........................
Contradiction galore

No one is saying there are no symbols in scriptures. The scripture is full of symbolic texts, just as it is full of literal texts.

Scriptures are interpreted in 4 basic styles.

1. Literal texts
2. Symbolic texts
3. Contextual texts
4. Prophetic texts

These are the four hermeneutics of scriptures (styles of interpreting scriptural texts)

So while there are indeed symbolic texts in scripture; what I'm saying is that not all texts are symbolic. And one of such texts is the story of "The rich man and Lazarus".

The story is not symbolic. It is either a true life story or a true-to-life story. A historical fact of life or practical fact of life -but a fact of life nonetheless.

Meaning that, parable or not; the story clearly proves that souls depart to hades or heaven after death, and they remain animate and conscious there.

You desperately wanted to play the "symbolic" card with this story, so you can claim that souls talking and being conscious after death as in the story is symbolic not literal. But it is not symbolic, it is a factual description by Christ of what happens in hades after death.

Death is not the cessation of existence. If souls cease to exist after death, how was the witch of Endor able to conjur up the spirit of Samuel the prophet after he had died? (1Samuel 28v15)

And if souls know nothing after death, how was Samuel able to know that Saul and his son would die the next day? (1Samuel 28v19)

It means the verses you quoted of the dead knowing nothing should be interpreted contextually; in the context of the human body. It is the human body that decays and returns to dust; and knows nothing anymore after death. The human souls stays active, animate and conscious in hades or heaven after death.

Stop giving every text symbolic interpretation.

Shalom

MizJanet:


Call them carnal christian, call them babe in christ , those hypocrites are everywhere . The bible God didnt accept them as his belivers .


" they publicly declare to know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and not even approved for good work of any sort > Titus 1:16

You don't establish doctrine with individual scriptures. It is the combination of scriptures that reveal the whole counsel of God.

If you read the bible as a whole, you will see that God doesn't give up on His people when they sin or stumble. Like Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon etc.

Everyone of us is born again as a babe in Christ. No one is perfect at salvation. We stumble and fall like every baby until we learn how to walk with God.

It is as we fellowship with the Holy Spirit in the place of the word that we grow in grace and in the knowledge of Christ.

The renewing of the mind and the reformation of the soul is not an instant work. It is a gradual process.

A christian who sins is not necessary a hypocrite. He is a baby christian who is still learning to know Christ and appreciate being like him. Stumbling is a normal part of learning to walk.

If an earthly parent does not give up on their children when they stumble, even many times; how much more will Jesus not give up on His own people.

We don't love and have patience with our children more than God. The church will get there.

Christ is coming for a glorious church; and He will meet a glorious church. The Holy Spirit will not fail.

MizJanet:
So no wonder religion continue to cause problem in the society : the code is once you belive , you can sin as you like , aftrall you are still a babe in christ ehn .

True; the gospel of grace and righteousness through faith, albeit sound; has been abused by many believers.

But there is no where in scripture that carnality or remaining a babe in Christ is encouraged. Carnality grieves the Holy Spirit and no believer should enjoy grieving the Holy Spirit.

But one major reason for this problem is the lack of leaders with the heart of a disciple. We have lots of pastors and speakers in the church, but there is a scarcity of leaders who are true disciples.

But that is set to change I believe. But that is not a topic for this thread.

MizJanet:
If carnal christians are belivers ,why would dey be thrown out of the church ? 1cor 5:11-13

Why whould others be WARNED not to associate with them ? 1cor 5:11-13

Yeah those kind of actions from the brethren is passive rebuke. It doesn't mean the person is no more a believer. It is actually another form of rebuke for the obstinate brethren to help him reconsider his carnality.

When counsel, exhortation, and rebuke by word of mouth doesn't work; the church can try passive rebuke. We give him space, while we continue to interceed for him.

But we should also not over-do it, lest the enemy takes advantage of the distance and situation. Paul himself later advised the same.

2Cor 2v6,8,11 -Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Wisdom is needed, with intercession; when dealing with a rebellious carnal brethren.

Even so, passive rebuke doesn't mean he has become an unbeliever. Passive rebuke is equally for the purpose of repentance and restoration.

Shalom.

MizJanet:

You are just setting traps for yourself

Who is an unbelive ? A muslim, a jew or millions of hypocrites shoutin christinaity, who carry bible up and down but secretely visits sexuality sites , fornicate and masturbate like a natural man ?

An unbeliever is anyone who has not put his faith and hope of salvation in Christ's death and resurrection.

And anyone who believes and confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; and that He died for our sins and rose for our justification is a believer.

Romans 10v9 -That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now, a believer in Christ who still visits porn sites, fornicates and masturbates is not an unbeliever; he is a carnal believer, or a baby in Christ.

1Cor 3v1-3 -And I brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

A believer in Christ that still sins is not an unbeliever. He is a carnal christian. A babe in Christ. He is still in Christ.

You don't become an unbeliever until you denounce or depart from your faith in Christ. A christian should bring forth good works, but good works is not what makes you a christian.

Shalom

MizJanet:


" For we are really not writing you about anything except WHAT YOU CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND " 2 Corinthians 1:13

Paul was writing to believers. People who already have the Holy Spirit and can receive inspiration from Him when they seek Him.

But about unbelievers; Paul said this:

1Cor 2v14 -But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

An unbeliever cannot receive spiritual inspiration; he can only be studious with the letter.

Shalom

Naital:


I wish I could help you explain the inexplicable. .... but you see, this is what happens when you try to make sense of what does not make sense.

So any thing that can't be articulated must be because it doesn't make sense?

The things of God have a greater depth of reality than the human language can fully articulated or even have a word for in the dictionary.

That's why when Paul took a trip to paradise the third heaven; he said he heard "unspeakable words".

2Cor 12v4 -How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The mind of God is heavier than what any human tongue can fully articulate. The human language or even dictionaries don't have enough words yet to fully make sense of all the thoughts conveyed in the scriptures.

That's why the scriptures are understood not just by being studious with it, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Job 32v8 -But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Shalom

Naital:


Lol. Religious pple will never cease to amuse me. "Spiritual body"....hmmm spiritual physical body.

That's the best expression I could come up with to explain the point I wanted to make.

But you can help me. How would you define the resurrection body of Christ? An immortal body of flesh and bones quickened with the life of the Spirit, not with blood.

Physical body? Or spiritual body? Or spiritual physical body?

MizJanet:

All your rants and super imaginations are not needed. Revelation is said to be full of symbols.(revelation 1:1) So Let BIBLE EXPLAIN ITSELF.
soul under the altar
" for the soul of every sort of flesh is in its BLOOD" - LEV 17:14 . And this blood poured under the altar represent the SOUL OF THE SACRIFICIAL ANIMALS (lev 4:7)

That clearly indicate that God view the death of his servants as a sacrifice.

You know; this your symbolism versus literal argument thing is getting old.

Whatever you can't explain you call it symbolic not literal. That is how you try to wiggle your way out of every doctrinal dead end you put yourself.

Did the bible say our blood is our soul? Is it our blood that goes to sheol after death?

Psalm 16v10 -For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol) : neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Our blood does not go to sheol; our soul does. Our soul is a living, animate, conscious part of our existence; just like our spirit. And it doesn't sleep after death. It departs with our spirit to either heaven or hades after death.

Those are literal souls under a literal heavenly alter. It doesn't symbolize blood.

MizJanet:
Body of flesh
Really? What about this " it is sown a physical body, it is raised SPIRITUAL Body, if there is a physical body there is also a spirital one" 1cor 15:44

Spiritual body Is a gift at ressurection NOT somtin already possessed.

" David is asleep in death" Act 13:36 , who is david in that verse? Ordinary flesh

A spiritual body is still a BODY with flesh and bones, quickened with the life of the Spirit. The type Jesus had when He rose from the dead. It is an immortal body, but it still has flesh and bones.

Jesus did not resurrect as a spirit, He resurrected with a spiritual body; an immortal physical body with flesh and bones. Infact that His "spiritual" body still had the pierced holes of the nails and the spear.

Luke 24v39 -Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

At resurrection, we resurrect like Christ, with a spiritual body -an immortal body with flesh and bones. A spiritual body is still a physical body with flesh and bones.

And yes it is our bodies that sleep. While our souls and spirits goes to hades or heaven and it stays alive after death.

Matthew 27v52 -And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

The bodies of the saints sleep, while their souls and spirits departs and stays alive as with the rich man and Lazarus. Their souls were not asleep in hades, was it? It was their bodies asleep in the grave.

MizJanet:
@ bold , That verse in revelation is highly symbolic includin the white, red, pale, crook horsemens, and the event in sixth seal where stars fall on planet earth.

Is that not a parable , take it literal, if soul of abraham go to heaven , then christ is not the only way to heaven. The jews are right .

Here we go again with "it is symbolic" rant. That something happened spiritually doesn't mean it is not literal. The horsemen are literal spiritual horsemen.

Not everything in Revelation is symbolic, just spiritual but no less literal. Are the angels, the 24 elders and the lamb in Revelation symbolic too? Or literal spiritual beings?

Then this story is clearly not a parable and it is not symbolic. It is a story about people who truly lived once and died and what happened in sheol after they died.

Abraham and Lazarus were not in heaven. They were still in sheol here but not in the torment side.

No one was righteous enough for heaven until Jesus came. Everyone went to sheol after death, but those who pleased God did not go to the torment side of sheol. It was after Christ came that believers now go to be with the Lord after they die according to Paul.

But this story is not a parable, it is a true case scenario of what takes place in sheol. And it shows and proves very clearly that souls don't sleep after death. They stay alive and conscious and animate in sheol or heaven.

And even if I were to give your claim a benefit of the doubt, as farfetched as it is; and say the rich man and lazarus was a parable.

What then is a parable? A parable is the use of physical realities or practical facts of life to explain kingdom spiritual truths. A parable is more than symbolism; it is using practical life realities to explain kingdom truths.

I love this definition of a parable:

A parable is using practical truths to explain kingdom truth. A parable may not always be a historical fact, but it is always a practical fact. A parable may not always be a true-life story but it is always a true-to-life story. Parables are never unrealistic, they always contain facts of life.

That means, souls going to hades and staying alive and conscious after death, like Lazarus and the rich man and Abraham is a practical reality of life. Just like sowing and reaping is a practical reality in the parable of the sower. Or you want to say because the parable of the sower is not a true life story, therefore sowing and reaping is not a fact of life?

Even if parables are not true life stories, the scenario they depict are facts of life and practical realities. Meaning souls going to hades is a fact.

No matter how you want to swing the argument (parable or not). The story of the rich man and Lazarus shows and proves that human souls and spirits stay alive, animate and conscious after death, in hades or heaven.

Shalom!

MizJanet:


Should i call this your attitude cluelessness ?
|. The event in that book called revelation is FUTURE (Revelation 1:1)

||. The event of the 7 seals is also future ( Revelation 4:1)

So whats ur prob ? Meanwhile if you are takin it literal it means souls are crammed under a literal alter. Be intelligent for once , the 4th seal says death rides a horse and hades was following him. Lol this is literal too

You still have a long way to go.



Bodily ? Vomit that shit . Nothing like bodily is found there , you purposely infer it to spread your lies

1the 4:15 says the dead are ASLEEP

1the 4:16 says they were resurected

Very clear and direct.

What has the event being in the future got to do with the fact that those are literal souls under a literal heavenly alter? The question is do souls of the dead go to heaven? And that scripture shows clearly that they do. Period!

And you also think souls need to be crammed under God's alter? Obviously you're imagining that God's alter and temple is the size of the alter of Solomon's temple.

The bible says Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool. With a God like that, the alter of His temple can take the world. Expand your imagination. Souls don't need to be crammed under the alter of God, it is big enough to take all of them, with room for many more. You're the one lacking imagination here.

And "bodily" doesn't need to be mentioned in that verse for you to know that the resurrection is a bodily resurrection. Every resurrection is a resurrection in body.

And it is bodies that sleep. When scripture talks about sleeping in death, it is the body. Souls depart to be with Christ in heaven as that verse in Revelation makes clear.

Souls don't sleep after death. The souls of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were not asleep. They were alive, conscious and animate even after death. Just like the souls of these believers under the alter of God.

Shalom.

MizJanet:

And you think na ghost mode paul wan use reach heaven ?

Let him explain :

" that i may attain the earlier RESSURECTION From the dead" - philipians 3:11.

, he wish to go to heaven through ressurection NOT ghost mode filmtrick

And has the ressurection occur ? Answer me , keep in mind the popular 1the 4:16 or else u will blow urself up like football

And who told you that it is only after bodily resurrection that a believer can go to heaven?

The souls of believers go to heaven after death even before the resurrection of the righteous. They will resurrection bodily at the beginning of the millenial reign of Christ. But even now, they are in heaven with Christ as souls.

Rev 6v9 -And when He (the lamb) had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

See that? These are the souls of dead believers under the alter of the temple of God in heaven. In the Holy place; at the entrance of the MostHoly place where God's throne is.

The souls of the saints go to heaven to be with Christ the HighPriest, even before their bodily resurrection at the millenial.

1Thess 4v16 talks about the bodily resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the millenial reign.

Shalom.

MizJanet:


Failed logic to propagate lies , your grandmother is dead , she simply go down into the silence of death .

" the dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into the silence of death" psalm 115:17

Wong again!

According to the scriptures, when the saints die, they go to be with the Lord.

2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

See? To be absent from the body in death, is to be present with the Lord in spirit.

Another scripture.

Philippians 1v23 -For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

See again? To depart from the body and from the earth is to go be with Christ. And last I checked Jesus is in heaven.

So to be "no more" means to be no more on earth or to be no more in a specific place. It doesn't mean to cease to exist.

Shalom!

MizJanet:
Dont use religiously indoctrinated and unsound logic here , when somehing is no more it doesnt exist anymore . true

An example is this: if i say God is no more, what does it mean ? Oh ok am sayin God is not on earth but his actually still existin in heaven. WHAT AN UNSOUND AND CRAZY LOGIC THAT IS . Thats exacly what you are doing ,

When i say God is no more , am sayin he is not in existence anywhere. Thats d true meaning.

God is omnipresent, so you can't use "God is no more" for such an explanation.

Try "My grandmother is no more". When I say my grandma is no more, I am talking about the earth. She is no more on earth; but she is definitely somewhere; because I know she has gone to heaven to be with the Lord.

So her being "no more" is relative to earth not that she has ceased to exist. In heaven, she is not "no more".

So when God said "there shall be no more death or pain" it is relative to the new heaven and the new earth. For those in the lake of fire; death (the second death) and pain (eternal torment) is not "no more".

Nice try using an omnipresent God to explain "no more". Next time use something that can't be everywhere, everytime.

MizJanet:


......................................o.................................
Back to ur satan tormented day and night forever in a vision with a wild beast dats also just symbolic, such a beast is not real ! Na visio tinz. ITS STILL THE SAmE picture of everlastng fire that destroyed Sodom to ashes, and the desruction is forever coz those cites are never rebuilt. Satan and his co-hort wont have an everlasting (neva-ending) life , which is a Gift from God, will they ? Start getting understandin .

Matthew 25v46 -And these shall go away into EVERLASTING (never-ending) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What is your own interpretation of everlasting punishment? Can everlasting punishment be meted out to people with non-everlasting existence.

You can't punish someone that doesn't exist or is dead. You can only punish someone that is living, animate and conscious.

If the punishment of the Devil, his demons and every soul that will go to the lake of fire will be everlasting, it means their existence in the lake of fire will equally be everlasting.

Shalom

MizJanet:
Mr dictionary is not biblical

So when death was cast into lake of fire it lives on ?

LET YOUR OWN BIBLE DISQUALIFY YOU
explained:

"death is no more" Rev 21:4, when something is no more , does it continue to exist dictionary vindicated ! Very clear


Who tell u the people who suffer DEATH and Destructon live on? Very illogical and infact Acordin to ur religious book Cities of Sodom and Gomorah came to an end till today ! What hapen ? " those cities suffer the purnisment of everlasting fire " jude 7.

Let me laugh a little ! Pls dose cities still dey burn , it means they came to an end.


Thread vindicated already. cleared.

Signed: mizJanet

Does the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha also mean the cessation of their existence?

I told you that destruction does not mean the cessation of existence. According to Jesus and the bible, Sodom and Gomorrah still exists spiritually.

Jesus said this;

Matthew 10v15 -Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of Judgment, than for that city.

How can judgment be tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha on judgment day if they no longer exist at all? How will God judge or reward a non-existing city on judgment day.

Look at another verse again.

Revelation 11v8 -And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called SODOM and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Can you see? That Sodom still exists as a spiritual city.

So scripturally, a thing can be destroyed and die and still continue to live on.

And secondly; the second death in the lake of fire is not the cessation of life. Let me show you a scripture that proves that:

Rev 20v10 -And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (the second death), where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER.

If going to the lake of fire means ceasing to exist, how can their torment last day and night for ever and ever. Can someone that ceases to exist be tormented forever?

The second death is a place of eternal torment. People don't cease to exist in the place of the second death; they are tormented for ever and ever.

And when scripture said "there shall be no more death" in Rev 21v4; it is talking about in the new heaven and new earth, not in the lake of fire. That's why the chapter began with; "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth" -Rev 21v1.

The verse four of that same chapter also said "there shall be no more pain". Ofcourse we know that there will be pain for those being tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

"No more death or pain" is for the saved in the new heaven and new earth. For those in the lake of fire, there is death (the second death) and there is pain (eternal torment).

Death and destruction in the lake of fire does not mean the cessation of life or of existence. It is eternal separation from God and everlasting torment. Spirits never cease to exist. They live on; even in the lake of fire (the second death).

Shalom

MizJanet:


You are really derailin this thread . TWO THINGS HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED

1. The use of hell in your bible in matt 10:28 is forgery , which u testify to as true forgery leading you to digging out the greek words . You wont have done this if the english is NOT edited

Matthew 10v28 -And fear not them which the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (God) which is able to bestroy both soul and body in GEHENNA.

If Jesus was talking about "gehenna" in terms of a physical geographical location, would He make this statement?

Can't a human being take another human being to the valley of Hinnom and burn his body there? Why would Jesus imply only God can destroy a soul and body in gehenna?

Ofcourse, it's because Jesus is not talking about "gehenna" in terms of a physical geographical location but "gehenna" in terms of the future lake of fire. That is the gehenna that only God can take a man to.

That is the term of usage in which I'm defining gehenna. The term in which Christ Himself used it in His teaching -as a future lake of fire.

MizJanet:
2. Even when you dig out the greek , you FINALLY testify that it symbolize destruction. And everyone knows when something is destroyed, it comes to an end CONTRARY to the never ending life in hell garbage shouted at the pulpit . Thanks .

Signed: mizjanet ,

Hope you also realise that the lake of fire is also called "The second death" ?

Rev 20v14 -And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I'm sure you will want to say again that "everyone knows that when something dies it comes to an end."

That is to tell you that according to scriptural usage, eternal separation from God in the lake of fire is death and destruction; even if they live on.

Matthew 26v46 -And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Everlasting punishment and eternal separation from God in the lake of fire is death and destruction even if the people live on.

Use biblical usage to explain biblical terms. That's the problem you're having. That death means cessation of life in the dictionary, does not mean that's its biblical usage. A person conscious and animate can be said to be dead in scriptural usage.

Use biblical usage to explain biblical terms.

Shalom.

MizJanet:


Very good . Hope you can see its actually a geographical location on planet earth. CONTRARY to d rubbish u said before that its a place where sinners go after resurection .

That moment when we teach churchgoers their own book .

Nawa o.

I'm talking of Christ's use of the term "gehenna" as against the other word "hades".

Go to the bible and see how Jesus used the term "gehenna". Was He talking about its physical geographical location or its symbolic description of future lake of fire?

Its looking more like you just enjoy comments on your thread, so you disagree to keep the argument open and the comments coming.

Naital:


You are apparently unaware of the original meanings of the words you defined.

Do your research properly.

How about you show me your research findings and we can begin from there.

Its very easy to tell others to go do research without you disproving what was said with scriptures and bible passages.

MizJanet:


Lols , dont mind that man , infact i cant just stop laughin when i discovered that the gehenna he is talkin about is actually the Place Called valley of hinnom in Jerusalem .

Some people are just brainwashed

Bible Lexicon "Outline of Biblical Usage"

1. Hell, also called Hell fire; is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; it became a fitting symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

As I said; Study, don't just read.

theAtheist101:


Sorry, I forgot you believe that a snake can talk, that Moses parted the Red Sea (!) with a stick, the same Moses used his stick to break a rock, and that the death of someone can cleanse you of your atrocities. Why wouldn't you believe two bears with an average speed of 30 mph can kill 42 young boys with an average speed of 14 mph each . I wouldn't want to waste my time writing mathematical proofs to someone who has no regards for empirical reasoning.

Stoning from over 42 children would kill these bears! The smallest of stones would inflict a damaging injury on these animals. But, yet again, you would claim god must have given these bears supernatural power to withstand the impacts from the stones. Then, I wonder why god/Elisha didn't just kill these kids directly without troubling his "super-bears". Note: The higher the number of boys the lesser the chance of these bears to come out of the attack alive.

You really don't understand what a curse is; that's why you think it is impossible for a curse to make just two bears kill 42 people. A curse is the opposite of a blessing.

What is a blessing? To be blessed is to be supernaturally empowered to prosper. When you're blessed, everything (physical, spiritual, natural and material) is supernaturally empowered to work for you and help you prosper.

Now, the exact opposite is the meaning of a curse. A curse is when everything is supernaturally empowered to work against you or make you fail.

Remember how an angel removed the wheels of the Chariot of the armies of Pharoah, so that they could not run out of the sea that was about closing up on them. (Exodus 14v24-25). Those are how a curse works against someone.

If the children are under an active curse, they can't escape from the bears even if they tried; and they can't fight them even if they tried.

The curse could keep them tripping over a stone that is not there. The spirit of fear could possess the kids and make them freeze. Not to talk of the bears too being possessed with strange speed to chase after the kids or strange strenght to kill with a single blow or any other thing.

Trust me; under a curse from someone like Elisha; a prophet with the double portion of the spirit of Elijah, even a lizard can maul a human being like a grown crocodile.

That's why it is a curse. It is not ordinary. Something is being supernaturally empowered to make you fail. Everything comes together to work against you with supernatural assistance.

You're trying to rationalize the supernatural effect of a curse using scientific empirical methods. That will only make you go in circles and then you will conclude that the incident is a myth and can't be true.

A curse is supernatural. To be cursed is for things to be supernaturally empowered to work against you. When you understand that; you will understand that a curse can make 2 bears kill 42 lads easily -especially a curse from someone whose authority is from God.

God bless.

Pr0ton:


Your point can be summarized like this:



There are, also, instances where God refused to answer His prophets' prayers because they were not in line with His will:

Elijah prayed that he might die. God had much more work for Elijah to do so it was not in God's will for Elijah to die at that time. In the end Elijah didn't die but was caught up into heaven by a whirlwind. 1 Kings 19:4; 2 Kings 2: 11

Jonah prayed that God would take his life as it was better to die than to live. God did not answer his prayer probably in line with Eccl 3, "for there is a time to die and we must wait for God's timing not ours." Also, Jonah had yet to accomplish the work God sent him to do. Jonah 4:3.

King Zedekiah prayed for help in defeating Nebuchadnezzar. God's answered that He would not help because of the many sins of Israel. Jeremiah 21:2

The disciples James and John with their mother requested the highest rank in the kingdom Jesus was to establish. Jesus' answer was that this position was not His to give. But, they first were to be servants of one another before greatness would be given them. Mark 10:34-45.

Jesus prayed, "May this cup be taken from me." He also prayed, "Your will be done." It was the Father's will that Jesus drink the cup of suffering for the sins of the world. Matthew 26:36-46; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 2:9; 12:2,3; 13:12,13.

Paul prayed that his "thorn in the flesh" be removed. Paul's thorn was not removed, so that Christ would be glorified, not himself, and to keep him from becoming proud. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

So there were instances where God refused to carry out the request of His prophets, and that was, imperatively, because there were negative, which shows that God has the final say over a request. The same should have been done in the case with Elisha's. But God supported him, and killed 42 lads because they called Elisha baldhead (which was even the fact)

All the examples you gave here are for when people prayed to God and God declined. This is different from when people use the authority or gift God gave them in a way contrary to God's character.

There is a difference between a scenario of you coming to me and saying, Ayo, give me a gun I want to kill my boss. And I will tell you no I won't give you.

And another scenario where I give you a gun for your protection and you use it at your liberty to kill your boss.

Elisha did not pray to God to curse the children; Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord. And it was done. One of the perks of authority is a level of autonomy.

When God makes you something or gives you something, He doesn't always impose His will on you over your choice of how you use what He made you or gave you. He gives you autonomy in the use of that gift or authority. And depending on your own spiritual maturity in the fruit of the Spirit, you can use or abuse the gift or authority.

God made David King and gave him the throne; but was it God that made David sleep with Beersheba and kill Uriah her husband?

No, that was all David, abusing his God-given authority as a king. God even rebuked David for that.

It was God that gave Solomon wisdom and made him rich above all the kings of the earth. But was it God that made him have 700 wives and 300 concubines?

No, that wasn't God; that was all Solomon, abusing the riches.

This principle is true for all forms of God-given authority. Spiritual or supernatural authority, positional or leadership authority and financial or material authority.

God does not always impose His own will on His servants on how they use the authority He gives them. That's why those servants can sometimes misuse or abuse the gifts by using it in a wrong attitude or character that doesn't reflect that of God.

To say that everything a servant of God does with his God-given authority is done by God or reflects the character of God, is a very ignorant statement and a very presumptive conclusion.

That opinion presumes that what God gives you can only be used how God wants you to use it and for what He wants you to use it. And that God-given gifts and authority cannot be misused or abused. That is so untrue scripturally.

To know the Father, look at the Son -Jesus Christ the Word of God; the communication of the character of the Father. He is the true reflection of the nature of God. That's why He said,

John 14v9 -...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;

God bless.

OLAADEGBU:
Why did God kill 42 lads merely for saying Elisha was bald?

"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!" When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number" (2 Kings 2:23-24)

Why would God allow two bears to kill 42 young lads simply for saying Elisha was bald?

God didn't kill them, Elisha did.

Don't judge the character of God by all the actions of His prophets.

1Cor 14v32 says; ...the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Meaning God gives His prophets some autonomy in the use of His authority. Meaning it is not everything a prophet does with his God-given authority that reflects the character of God in that situation.

When God gives you power and the authority to use His name with results, what you do will have results; even so that doesn't mean that what you did reflects the character of God. No it reflects the character of the prophet.

That's why there is a difference between the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit. You can have the gifts without the fruit. Gifts are given, fruits are grown. Not every prophet who had the gifts of the Spirit walked in it in proportionate measure of the fruit of the Spirit.

God told Moses to speak to the rock so water will come out. Moses in anger hit the rock with his staff (the symbol of his authority) and the water still gushed out. (Numbers 20v8-11)

Meaning a prophet can use the authority God gave Him in a wrong attitude and it will still have results. Yet that doesn't reflect the character of God. God was very displeased with Moses. (Numbers 20v12)

Elijah also called down fire at will on anyone who opposed him in the name of God. Yet when the disciples of Jesus asked Him to do the same; He rebuked them sharply and in no uncertain terms. (2Kings 1v9-12; Luke 9v54-55)

Jesus Christ is the Word of God; the communication of the character of God. He is the brigthness of God's glory and the express image of His person.

If you want to really know God; look at Him through the life and character of Christ; not just through the lens of everything His prophets did in His name.

The biblical patriachs, prophets, kings and saints did their best; within the limitations of the Adamic nature and of the old covenant. But only Christ embodies the true nature and character of God in man.

Have this context in mind when you read the scriptures.

God bless.