italo:


I never said the bold.


I don't know, tell me.



I didn't say so. You did.



"Sound doctrine" that The Bible never taught.



So it was a demon that appeared to Jesus in this verse:

Matt17:3 * And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.

You still haven't shown where the Bible says saints will never appear.

Thank you. I'm glad you're admitting you don't know how to determine if an apparition is of God or its demonic.

So you don't know how to determine it, yet you conclude by personal bias that the purported apparition of Mary is of God.

That is a slippery slope to being led astray.

Now when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, they appeared as the two mediators of the old covenant that Jesus came to fulfil (the law and the prophets)

That's why I chose my words carefully, that Mary is not a messenger angel, neither is she a covenant mediator. So on what scriptural truth is the basis of her appearing to any saint on earth after dying?

Moses and Elijah represented the mediators of the old covenant; the law and the prophets.

No saint in heaven is a messenger angel or mediator of any covenant now. Not even Mary.

Be Berean with the word, be Berean!

There is no verse that categorically said saints in heaven don't appear, just as there is no verse that say they do. But scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven are not messenger angels or covenant mediators, and don't appear to saints on earth, like angels or Jesus can.

Apparitions of Mary, Enoch etc are demonic.

Shalom

dmandy:


The bold is what you have been saying since with too many words. If want to teach a person something you make it simpler.

Anyways, you say I should not believe anything that is not written on the pages of the Bible. Can you tell me where the bolded statements are written?

I don't want us to be going in circles achieving nothing.

Give me the scriptural backing and I will follow your teaching

You establish doctrine through scriptural antecedents, not through personal opinion.

And scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven don't appear to saints on earth.

Or else, you show me where saints in heaven came to earth and appeared to saints on earth.

Shalom

italo:


Where did the Bible say the bold?

And where did the bible say those were the only apparitions that would ever happen?

You establish doctrine through scriptural antecedents, not through personal opinion.

And scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven don't appear to saints on earth.

Or else, you show me where saints in heaven came to earth and appeared to saints on earth.

Shalom

italo:


The summary is that apparitions happened in the Bible.

Where did the bible tell you it cannot happen again?

And where is it in the bible that every strange appearance or apparition is of God?

And if every apparition is not God, how to you know which is of God and which is demonic?

Or any apparition that is the image of a biblical character is of God to you? Smh.

Saints in heaven (dead or glorified) don't appear to anyone on earth. They are not messenger angels or covenant mediators. That is sound doctrine.

Purported apparitions of Mary, Elijah or Enoch etc are all demonic appearances and manipulation.

Shalom!

dmandy:

The bold is what I want you to proof.

The Bible wrote in what chapter and verse that only glorified, resurrected saints can appear?

Even glorified, resurrected saints cannot appear. Those ones appeared immediately after they came out of their graves before they ascended. And after that, no one has seen them again.

Saints in heaven, whether glorified and resurrected or just dead, stay in heaven until the resurrection. They don't appear to anyone on earth like angels or Jesus.

They are not messenger angels or covenant mediators.

If you don't know this, tomorrow another apparition will appear claiming to be the prophesied Elijah. Then another one will come saying he is the returned Enoch.

You must know that saints in heaven don't appear to anyone. To see them, you must died and go to heaven yourself or be taken like Paul was to the third heaven.

Be Berean with God's word, that's the foundation of sound doctrine. Otherwise if you just follow signs you will be led astray.

Shalom

dmandy:


I do not argue your position, I only want to find out where it is based.

Did people who died wake up and appear to people in Jerusalem? What was the significance?

Their's is in the bible, that's what I'm saying. Some glorified old testament saints that rose with Jesus, appeared to people in Jerusalem before they ascended. Those saints are the firstfruits of the coming future resurrecrion of the saint. That is a scriptural truth.

But have they appeared to anyone again since they ascended to heaven? No! Because they are glorified saints, not messenger angels or mediators of the new covenant.

Is the appearance of Mary a biblical doctrine? On what scriptural truth is the basis of her appearance? Mary is not even a resurrected, glorified saint like the ones in Matthew; much less being a mediator of the new covenant.

Her appearance does not point to, validate or establish any truth in God's word or any sound doctrine in the scripture. So the puported sign of her appearance can never be of God. Because God always operates by His word.

This can only be a demonic distraction to those who give it relevance. Mary is in heaven awaiting her resurrection like every other saint, not appearing to anyone. This apparition is not scriptural or of God. It is a demonic sign you will do well to ignore.

Shalom.

dmandy:


Were there no apparitions recorded in the Holy Book?

Jesus appeared to people, angels appeared to people. So such have a scriptural foundation.

But on what scriptural foundation is the appearance of Mary? Or you want to claim any appearance of any being is of God?

Mary is not a messenger Angel, neither is she our covenant mediator -only Jesus is. So on what scriptural foundation and doctrine is the relevance of her purpoted appearance?

It can't be of God, therefore. It can only be a demonic manipulation. We don't follow signs, we follow the scriptures and signs established on scriptural truths. And the appearance of Mary is neither.

Shalom

dmandy:


I don't know which scriptural doctrine it validates o. Any idea?

Taken as demonic manipulation without proof? Are you for real?

so, it is possible that it is true. I had my doubts.

Okay then, I think you can start by letting us know what the scriptural truth in God's word said concerning apparitions or lack of it.

Thank you very much! That's exactly what I'm saying.

There is no scriptural doctrine that the appearance of Mary endorses or validates. And when a sign has no truth in God's word it can be traced to, then it is not of God.

malvisguy212:
I don't know about All this video you upload, but I tell you bro, she did appear, infacte when the little girl was narrating the incident, people were doubting, then Mary appear for All to see again.

On what scriptural doctrine is the foundation and relevance of the appearance of Mary? What scriptural truth does the appearance of Mary validate or establish?

Because we need to be Barean with every sign through the use of the scriptures for us to know and be certain that this is an act of God, and not a demonic stunt to deceive people.

What scriptural doctrine does the appearance of Mary validate or proof? Otherwise, it should be taken as any other demonic manipulation.

The argument is not whether it happened or not. The argument is whether it is of God or demonic. And the only way to know it is of God is that the act will validate a scriptural truth in God's word.

And the appearance of Mary is not a scriptural truth, neither does it validate any doctrine in God's word. And as such, it is just a demonic distraction to those who give it any relevance.

Shalom

This same video has been in circulation on youtube for a while now.

This was the SAME video published in July 15 2015 purporting the incident too place in Ruaka, Kenya:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv8AiuATINw

This was the SAME video again published on youtube on Aug 18 2011, claiming it took place in Youpougon, Ivory Coast:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvyUnmBjxm8

And now, the SAME video is now published again on youtube on Sept 6 2015, claiming it happened in Kaduna, Nigeria:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZblmPoa8Ho0

This same video has been in circulation on youtube since as far back as 2011. The claim that it happened in Kaduna or Kenya is as fraudulent as the claim that it was Mary or Martha.

Shalom

This same video has been in circulation on youtube for a while now.

This was the SAME video published in July 15 2015 purporting the incident too place in Ruaka, Kenya:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv8AiuATINw

This was the SAME video again published on youtube on Aug 18 2011, claiming it took place in Youpougon, Ivory Coast:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvyUnmBjxm8

And now, the SAME video is now published again on youtube on Sept 6 2015, claiming it happened in Kaduna, Nigeria:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZblmPoa8Ho0

This same video has been in circulation on youtube since as far back as 2011. The claim that it happened in Kaduna or Kenya is as fraudulent as the claim that it was Mary or Martha.

Shalom

Goodboiyy:


Lolz, Nice quote.. buh Christianity is not the only tru religion, if u think Christianity is the true religion wat about those innocent children born into Muslim family, were will they go to ? hell Hmmm ?

80% of us re Christian bcous we were born into a Christian family, Only God Knows which is d true religion, But its wrong to conclude tat others will go to Hell Cous they ain't Christian.. All these things re misery , ONLY GOD KnOWs

PS: am a christian

As a christian; do you hold the bible in authority as the Word of God?

Let's start with that.

toba:
When i was still a baby christian, i never fully understood what the scripture was saying in Psalm 75 >> For not from the east, nor from the west,
         Nor from the desert comes exaltation;

7 But God is the Judge;
         He puts down one and exalts another, about making it in life. As time passed by, i began to grab what it meant having read other relevant biblical verses especially Ecclesiastes 9:11.
l was able to understand that in life, there are often grave inequalities. Sometimes, the wicked prosper, while the righteous are impoverished. But not always. I also noted that becos mr A made in life as a christian doesnt Automatically guarantee that Mr B will have same experience. As Solomon observed, "the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all" which means is not the amount of giving, tithing, fasting, praying, going to church, being 'over righteous' that determines success in life. Yoruba says 'kirakita kodola, kasise bi Erin ko da nkan kan. i.e ur struggles doesnt translate into success. l must saying it isnt right to do the above things tithing, giving, praying etc after all the bible says we should, fast, pray without ceasing, give etc but im saying that most MOG make pple believe, its not automatic translation to breakthrough in life or having an impact in life.
l've being able to establish above that God the creator of Heaven and heart owns the keys to blessings and does distribute same as he pleases. David was destined by God to be a king. left to jesse his father, he had preferences. Romans 9 taking a closer look at verses 10 to 16

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
The above clearly tells that God works according to his own purpose. Men dont set the terms in God's program. No one can speed up the fulfillment of His promises. God will show mercy as He chooses.
These MOGs (most) dont tell their congregation. so that they dont run away if they waited for blessings for too long?

Word does not say when He will do this promoting, this lifting up. Abraham waited faithfully for years, dying in faith like so many others. Many will have to wait until the resurrection for God to finally exalt them, to lift them up with a real promotion, but they arent told now what happens later?
Alh gbadeyanka(A very strong muslim) who owns MITV in Lagos recently told my Pastor that 'tell ur congregation that the church is not an ATM as pple erroneously believe that going to church will give them ' quick fix' l pray may open the eyes of believers if our pastors fail to tell the truth

God does not go back on His promises in the name of sovereignty. He does not change His mind about His word arbitrarily in the guise of "I can do as I please."

God's word is His bond; He has magnified it above all His names (Psalm 138v2) and forever it is settled in heaven (Psalm 119v89). If God makes a promise in His word, He will not go back on it in the name of sovereignty.

Jesus said in

Matthew 6v33 -But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and ALL these things SHALL BE ADDED unto you.

He didn't say "SOME of these things shall be added"; or "All these things MAY be added". NO! He said "ALL these things SHALL be added".

That's His Word, and it is His bond (His oath). He will not go back on it in the name of sovereignty.

You can't go to Jesus and say, "Lord you said all these things will be added unto me", and Jesus will say, "I know I said that but I'm God and I can do as I please."

If Jesus can change His mind arbitrarily on the promise of prosperity to those who seek first His kingdom in the name of sovereignty; then He can change His mind arbitrarily on the promise of eternal life to those who believe in Him, in the name of sovereignty.

What you're saying then is that His promises are not a guarantee for us, because their fulfilment is still subject to His sovereingty. But that's wrong! His promises are ALWAYS a guarantee to us; if the willingness, faith and power conditions are met.

Jesus also said this;

Luke 18v29-30 -And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, who shall not receive manifold more in THIS PRESENT TIME, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Here; Jesus promised every man hundred fold in this present age in return for every single thing they ever turned their backs on in this world to follow Jesus and His kingdom.

Jesus will not go back on this promise in the name of sovereignty or under the pretext that "I can do as I please". His word is His oath and His promises are His pleasure.

The same reasons why believers still lack is the same reason why believers still fall sick; and its the same reason why believers still sin.
Believers are not bringing forth the glory of Christ that brings all good things; they are not demonstrating the power of God that manifests the promises.

The same way Jesus shed His blood for our sins, is the same way He bore stripes for our healing; and that is the same way He was made poor for our prosperity.

So if believers are not living right or walking in health and prosperity; it has nothing to do with the fact God does as He pleases; it is because we are not maximizing the full benefits of Christ's blood-bought redemption for us.

It is the Father's good pleasure to see every believer walking in everything His Son suffered and died to give us -Spirit-led living, health, prosperity, etc. He will not deny us what His Son paid for in the name of sovereignty.

It is up to us. We are the ones that will choose to be endued with the power of God and behold the glory of Christ that manifests the inheritance that is ours through Christ. Its not God or Jesus witholding it.

But I agree, we should preach less of prosperity, or even healing. We should teach believers how to know Christ and the power of His resurrection. We should disciple believers on how to behold and bring forth the glory of Christ. That is the key to becoming all we were redeemed to become and walk in.

Shalom.

frosbel2:
Anyone who thinks that Christianity is the only true religion and that the rest of humanity who practice other faiths are destined for destruction are simply deluded, confused and misled.

The truth is that anyone who lives by the golden rule has a chance at salvation.

In every faith we have devils and saints and this is evident from many articles and comments we read on Nairaland.

There is ONE way that GOD defined and designed for all MEN, it is not Christianity, it is the way of Christ, the way of truth, love and justice.

Do not be deceived , all the wicked irrespective of religion will be condemned and all the righteous irrespective of religion will be saved.

Unfortunately , we have many exclusive and elitist fanatical groups in Nigeria that make bogus and large claims for themselves. These groups breed bigots and intolerant people who go about causing confusion and mayhem.

Christianity is not the ONLY Way.

Jesus Christ and GOD are not Christians.

Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 8v24 -I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (the Christ), YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS.

John 14v6 -Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.

Acts 4v12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.

Romans 10v9 -That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1Tim 2v5 -For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1John 2v22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1John 4v3 - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS NOT OF GOD: and this is that spirit of antichrist,

2John 1v7 -For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. THIS IS A DECEIVER AND AN ANTICHRIST.

All these verses and more show that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation and eternal life. And ONLY those who believe in Him as the Messiah, the Son of the Living God; and that He died for their sins and rose for their justification, receive this salvation and eternal life.

Those who reject this conviction and confession are called antichrists; and they are not saved or have eternal life.

And if they die in that state of unbelief (rejection of faith in Christ); their names will not be in the book of life, and their place will be in the lake of fire.

Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation and eternal life and ONLY those with faith in who He is and what He did according to the scriptures receive that salvation and eternal life.

Shalom.

An2elect2:


Go back and read my post on election. You don't know what it means I debunked your erroneous explanation of election, am waiting for you to do same?

Have i been shy with words? buhahahahahaha You don't know what bold as a lion is too,lol common!

You debunked nothing.

You couldn't prove that those who the Holy Spirit said would depart from the faith were never believers.

You couldn't prove that those who Paul said would be cut off were unbelievers.

You couldn't answer if there are unelected believers or believers who are not elected.

You debunked nothing.

And now; all you're doing is getting defensive, evasive and agigated over an easy question that a simple yes or no will suffice.

Does God want ALL MEN saved? Yes or No!

How hard is yes or no to a question like this if there is nothing to hide?

Shalom!

An2elect2:


Don't be tricky to get away with you ignorance, all our answers must be backed by scriptures and all given precept by precept Go back to my previous posts where i talked about God's election and provide your answer to it first.

Just what I thought!

The righteous are as bold as a lion truly. When you can't even be bold about a question as simple as this, it shows even you are having a hard time connecting the dots of your heresis.

I've answered your question about election; and I've used scriptures for the answers. I've shown how that since election is of grace and grace is by faith; then the elect are those have faith in Christ.

And since Peter said we should give diligence to making our election sure; it means it is not inherently sure. We have to keep the faith to make it sure.

I have answered all your questions about election which you are free to disagree with. But you can not even answer my simple question without tiptoeing and getting ambiguous.

Does God want ALL MEN saved? Yes or no?

Shalom!

An2elect2:
Ayoku777, vooks, Jiggaz, Scholar8200

If ten murderers are convicted and all sentenced to life imprisonment and the president exercises his prerogative right to pardon a prisoner and he orders for the release of lets say five of them, is he responsible for the remaining five who will have to stay with their life term jail? No. The are completely responsible for their evil deeds.

However, the remaining who received mercy will forever be grateful to the President.

Apply this analogy to what we are saying.

You guys who believe in man's choice will not accuse the President of unfairness. Why? because He is not responsible for the crimes of all them and would have simply allowed all to rot in jail, but out of his constitutional right/power he pardoned five.

It is the same for the sinner and salvation. All of us are by nature children of wrath but God because of His love according to His sovereign will decided to have mercy on those whom he had chosen.

We speak the truth, and you attack us? May you see.

Let me ask you a simple question; so simple one word answer would suffice.

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD WANTS ALL MEN SAVED? Yes or No.

Don't tiptoe, don get ambiguous, don't be scared of shooting yourself in the leg.

I need an honest answer so I can know where we are in this debate.

Shalom

An2elect2:
What is the whole talk about faith from Ayoku 777 and others, when faith itself is given?

Faith is a gift, no man can produce the faith of Christ unto salvation.

Repentance is a gift.

Discernment is a gift.

Patience and long suffering are gifts.

All are gifts of the Spirit, so which one are you ascribing to man?

And what is the nature of God's gifts? Are they imposed? Are they forced on us?

Gifts have two stages. One, it is given (or offered) by the giver. Two it is accepted or rejected by the receiver.

I've noticed you have this wrong description of the nature of God's gifts. You believe when God gives a gifts; the option of rejecting it is impossible to the receiver. That is wrong.

The gifts of God are offered, not imposed; they are presented, not forced on us. The gifts can be accepted or rejected by the receiver; or even accepted then forsaken.

You're right, saving faith is truly a gift, the scripture says that much. It is not an emotion we work up in our power.

Eph 4v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that faith is not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Note: words in blue are mine.

It says here that even the faith with which we received grace unto salvation was not of ourselves, it was the gift of God. Meaning no one can believe the gospel on his own, without the gift of faith from God.

But the question is, is this gift of faith given to some and denied others? Is it God that makes some people believe and makes others not believe? NO!

Romans 10v17 -So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Can you see this verse? Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Anyone who can hear the gospel can believe the gospel. The hearing of the gospel of Christ and the offer of the gift of faith in Him go hand in hand; they are two sides of the same coin.

So there is no such thing as; "Ten people heard the gospel, but only the two that God gave the gift of faith could believe it." Or that; "I heard the gospel, but God did not give me the gift of faith to believe it."

God does not present us with the gospel of salvation and then leave us struggling in our weakness to believe it. The faith to believe in Christ is offered with the hearing of His gospel.

Inherent in the gospel of grace, is the gift of faith to believe it. The gospel of Christ and the gift of faith to believe it, arrive in the same mail. You can say, the gospel comes with its own "believability package".

There are no select people that God offers the gift of faith to. Everyone who is ever presented with the gospel, was also offered the gift of faith to believe it. Anyone that was ever afforded the privilege of hearing the gospel, was offered the gift of faith in Christ.

So anyone who hears the gospel and doesn't believe it chose not to believe it, because the gift of faith in Christ was offered with the hearing of the gospel. Unbelievers who have heard the gospel, rejected the gift of faith in Christ.

That is why the Holy Spirit reproves the unbelief of the world.

John 16v8-9 -And when he (the Holy Spirit) is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The Holy Spirit reproves the world of the sin of unbelief.

If God is the one that offers some the gift of faith in Christ and denies others; why will the Holy Spirit rebuke the world for not having what God did not give or offer them? Why will he rebuke the world for not having what God denied or refused them.

It's like you, paying the school fees of one of your kids, and then you didn't pay that of the other kid. And you now rebuke him for being sent home from school.

Is that how low you esteem God and His integrity and justice? That He will rebuke us for not having what He denied us or refused to offer us?

Everyone is offered the gift of faith in Christ at the hearing of the gospel. Those who are believers are the ones who chose to accept the gift; those who remained unbelievers rejected the faith. But there is no one that was not offered -it comes with the hearing.

Faith is a gift of God; but receiving the gift of faith in Christ, keeping the faith and departing from the faith are all our choices.

That something is a gift does not mean receiving it is not a choice or that rejecting it is impossible. You keep making that doctrinal error. The gift of faith is offered everyone at the hearing of the gospel. We choose to accept it or reject it. And if we accept it, we choose to keep it or depart from it.

IT IS OUR CHOICE.

Shalom!

sportsmaster:

ayoku777 was saying the same thing,you guys did not read and understand each others texts.

Thanks and God bless!

jiggaz:
Jesus was saying that once you are saved, you can never be unsaved. A Believer in CHRIST doesn't lose his Salvation because he sins.... The only way Salvation can be lost is if the person denounces CHRIST which is rare....

Spot on bro!

Nawa o! So you mean we've spent 5 pages arguing over semantics, when we've actually being saying the same thing?

That's what "departing from the faith" means. You are saved and justified by faith in Christ; and you lose it if you depart from faith in Christ.

What you are calling "denouncing Christ", I am using the scriptural term "departing from the faith". But we mean the same thing.

You don't lose your salvation to sin or carnality. Even a carnal christian is still in Christ. That's why they are called "babes IN CHRIST" (1Cor 3v1). We only lose salvation to unbelief, to "departing from the faith".

You didn't really articulate your stand well at the beginning; that's why. Because we obviously are saying the same thing.

Shalom!

sportsmaster:


that is what i am saying in essence.
Sins will be forgiven.
But to turn away from Christ,the author of salvation,you dint lose salvation,YOU THREW IT AWAY.
Lol

Spot on!

Then we are the on the same page. We were just arguing over semantics.

I thought you belonged to the group that believes that there are some people God does not want to save. That those who will go to the lake of fire were not in Christ's salvation plan. And that "those" God wants to save cannot reject God's salvation or depart from it through unbelief.

You're clearly not in that school of thought.

We are good bro!

Shalom

sportsmaster:
my final quote.

John5:24:-Verily,verily,I say unto you,He that hears my Word and believes on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION;but is passed from death to life.

John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
29My father which gave them to me is greater than all;no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

what is Jesus saying here?.
I want answers.

No man, no challenge may be able to pluck your wife out of your embrace; if you really love her that much -not even her attitude, her mood swings, or her tantrums. But what if it is the wife herself that wants to leave you? No one is plucking her, she's just tired of your embrace; and wants to depart.

Even the Almighty God that said He hates divorce; experienced one.

Malachi 2v16 -For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away (divorce) :

But He himself suffered divorce from Israel, when Israel left Him;

Jeremiah 3v1 -...but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.

v7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

v8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;

God was even willing to forgive the adultery of Israel and receive her back, but Israel would not return. And so, God let her go.

If God tells you, I will never leave you; He means it. But what if you want to leave Him? Will He hold you down because He promised He will never leave you? NO! His promise of not leaving you depends on you wanting to stay too.

So if Jesus says nothing can pluck you out of His hands and you will never perish; that is if you want to stay. The world and the devil cannot pluck you out of His hands if you want to stay.

The idea that the covenant of salvation leaves nothing to our involvment; is a lie. There is no covenant without conditions binding on either parties in the covenant. The condition for ours is faith; and keeping the faith.

We can't save ourselves, but we can choose to accept or reject the offer to be saved by faith. Or even accept the offer by faith then depart from the faith.

Nothing can pluck you out of His hands, but you can depart all on your own. And Jesus will not hold you down by force.

But unbelief is the only way you depart and lose the salvation.

Shalom!

An2elect2:


And none of the elects will turn away. If any one abandons the faith, then he/she was never a part of the fold.

This is the lie you're peddling. That if someone can depart from the faith, he was never in the fold. How convenient.

So there are unelected believers? So there are believers in Christ now, who are not elected?

So we believers in Christ are not even sure yet if we are among the elect? We just have to wait to see if we depart from the faith; then we will know if we are elected or not?

Listen and listen good. There is no believer in Christ who is not an elect. And if a believer can depart from the faith, according to the Holy Spirit; it means even the elect can fall away.

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If our election is inherently sure or unmovable by default; why would the scripture admonish us to give diligence to making it sure (or making sure it doesn't move) ?

That God is Sovereign doesn't mean He is a dictator; All-powerful doesn't mean All-imposing.

Time and time again Jesus warned the churches in revelation; "He that overcometh...".

Why that statement? Isn't every believer an overcomer? If every believer will end an overcomer by force, will you be telling believers, "He that overcometh..." ?

Some believers will depart from the faith and will not end as overcomers. And believers who don't end as overcomers, will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3v5) and will be hurt of the second death -lake of fire (Rev 2v11)

This statement that anyone who can depart from the faith was never an elect is a lie. There is no such thing as an unelected believer. Every believer is an elect of God. Those who depart from faith in Christ did not make their election sure.

The choice to keep or depart from the faith is perpetually ours. Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith is not whether we want it or not.

Shalom.

5solas:
First and foremost I have dropped all my weapons. If we agree on faith and works and their roles in the life of the believer, I think we do, then there is no need for a fight.


Alright. I discovered right early a pattern from the Bible, the epistles in particular, firstly a teaching on how we get saved, with an admonition that it is not of our works (it is not deserved!) and secondly an exhortation on how to conduct ourselves now that we are saved. Granted that some believers are carnal like the man that took his father's wife, how do you admonish such? Persuaded that he was a believer but seeing him wallow in sin? This was Paul's dilemma. He found a skillful way out.


Alright. I think he was talking to believers, I have affirmed that much before. However, what if the carnality of a few needed addressing, how would he have done it. persuaded as he was that they had all believed and were saved?
What then happens to our belief that salvation is not deserved?

Thanks for your clarification on your stand concerning works, we completely agree. However,giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils is a sin. I fail to see any unbelief that is not rooted in sin.

1 Tim. 4:1

Note also as An2elect2 just pointed out, that God Himself is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

You're right, unbelief in Christ is a sin; it is the grandfather of all sins. Every other sin is unto spiritual demotion, but unbelief is the only sin unto spiritual death (1John 5v16). It is the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; because it is the only sin that rejects the Spirit's witness that Jesus is the Messiah, and calls the Spirit a liar.

And you're also right, unbelief can be rooted in, or start from, other sins, especially the unbelief of departure from the faith. Believers who depart from the faith and revert into unbelief did not get there overnight. Most times, there is a process of spiritual degeneration.

Carnality unchecked degenerated into lukewarmness, lukewarmness into spiritual indifference; and indifference into unbelief.

So even though carnality can not cost us our salvation, it is one of the bus stops that get us there. Even so, you don't lose salvation until unbelief.

And about the doctrines of demons; these are the philosophies of men, arguments of rationalist, and other confusing and unanswered questions about life and its challenges; that seducing spirits use to contend with the faith of believers in Christ. To make them doubt God, His love, His justice or even His existence. But its ultimately to make them depart from faith in Christ and revert into unbelief.

I give it to you, that many present athiests fall into this group. They were true believers in Christ before, not pretenders as we love to assume.

But many years down the line and for various reasons, ranging from unanswered prayers, a calamity they felt they didn't deserve; or many things they couldn't explain in the bible or things they couldn't understand about their life or other's; really shook their faith.

And instead of them to go back to the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to open their understanding; they started listening to philosophies of men and arguments of rationalist, and other doctrines of demons. Which ended up eroding what was left of their already shaken faith. Till they finally departed from faith in Christ and became unbelievers.

Now, they no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God; and that He died for their sins and rose for their justification. Something they truly did believe once. They now see their days spent in the faith as days of ignorance and naivety. They departed from the faith.

So yes, departing from the faith is a clear and present danger. It has happened to many believers and the Holy Spirit says it will happen to more.

And about Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith. This is true; Jesus is many things.

Jesus is saviour of the world, but are all saved? NO! Jesus is healer, are all healed? NO! He is our healer and He bore stripes for our healing; but many believers are still sick and dying of sickness. Jesus also reconciled the whole world to God on the cross, yet billions are still estranged to God through unbelief.

Truth is, whatever Jesus is, He will not force it on us. Jesus is the saviour of the world and He wants all men saved, but He will not save us whether we want it or not; that's why many remain unsaved.

Jesus doesn't want any believer to depart from the faith and revert into unbelief, but He will not finish our faith whether we want it or not. That's why some will depart from the faith.

The idea that whatever God wants from us will happen whether we want and let it or not, is a lie. If it is so, all men will be saved and no saved person will be carnal, much less depart from the faith.

Yet all this happen, is happening, and will happen. Proving that when it comes to having faith, or keeping the faith, or departing from the faith; what God wants is not imposed, it is only offered.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, but He is the author and finisher of the faith of those who let Him. He will not author or finish our faith whether we want it or not.

At no point does grace override our right of choice to keep the faith or depart from the faith. Grace can be rejected, or received in vain (that is, received and dumped). The choice to keep the faith or depart from it, is perpetually ours.

I have already quoted many verses to show that we can reject God's offer of salvation and resist the ministry of the Spirit in our lives. I don't want to belabour it again, lest we start arguing in circles.

Shalom!

starlingslimnet:
I shall do so now at your request.

Consequently when Christ came into the world he spake of a sin which cannot be forgiven neither in the then age or the age to come (which is ours). And this, He refers to as " Sin against the Holy Spirit".

Then, under the Old covenant sin is understood as "Transgressing the Law" but when Grace came through Christ He made it known that the people knows not what Sin is and therefore he promise to send the Holy Spirit to the world for three in one ministrations; of which "Conviction of Sin is number one".

Christ in explaining the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the world, He described Sin as "Unbelief in Him" John 16:8-9. Sin, Christ said, is not transgressing the law but unbelief in him.

Now the Spirit testifies through the mouths of the prophets and David that Jesus is the Christ, the Saviour of the World and Faith in his name alone can grant forgiveness of Sin to whoever believes in him,whoever believes on his name. And that whoever that does not believe on Christ will remain and die in his Sin for there is no other way by which sins can be forgiven except through faith in Christ.

Now the Testimony of the Holy Spirit is "Jesus is the Christ and Faith in His name will grant you forgiveness of sins" but when you reject this testimony you made Him, the Holy Spirit a lier. And thus you Sin against the Holy Spirit by rejecting his Testimony about Christ.

And it is evident that whoever does not believes in the Son of God will perish.And if you don't believe your sins remains, if your sins remains you are not forgiven. This, is what Christ mean't when He speak of a Sin that cannot be forgiven, "Calling the Holy Spirit a Lier" this you do by refusing to believe in Christ I.e Rejecting the Messianic testimony The Holy Spirit bores to Jesus and as such eternal damnation awaits such a person because his sins remains equating to "Unforgivable Sin"

May God bless the church with more insights. Amen.

Beautiful!

This is the unpardonable sin -refusing to come to Christ to be pardoned. It is rejecting the witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Messiah; thereby calling Him a liar.

Unbelief in Christ is the unpardonable sin, the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is the sin unto death.

You're spot on!

Shalom!

5solas:
He was addressing believers. What you don't know and grant is what I am trying to bring to your understanding. He knew they were saved! He had laboured all through the epistle to tell them so. He knew that with their knew nature they would not work after the flesh but after the Spirit. But what if they was a person, just one, that wasn't in faith? Such a one not having the Spirit could live after the flesh and still feel he was saved. The verse is for such a one. And for your information wherever you see such admonition, that is the purpose. You may call such verses Antinomian checks. In most of the epistles you will always see Pelagian checks and Antinomian checks. The balanced believer is mindful of both. The Pelagian checks are more and tell us not to put our hopes on going to Heaven on ourselves, sadly, you don't even see them.

Oh please, come on, enough with the "what ifs" and "antinomian checks". Someone that is not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off.

If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.

Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.

The warning of being cut off can only apply to those who are really grafted into Christ -which can only refer to real believers.

Unbelievers cannot be cut off from Christ because they were never grafted into Him. Paul knows this, the scripture knows this, and the Holy Spirit that inspired both Paul and the scripture knows it. So the warning applies to only believers.

Believers are the only ones grafted into the Christ, so the warning of being cut off can apply only to them.

No need for "what ifs" or "antinomian checks" or "pelagian checks" to understand this simple truth. You can't warn those who were never grafted about being cut off. Only believers can be cut off, because only believers are ever grafted.

5solas:

I don't have to read it again! He was speaking to believers in the main! But perchance there was an unbeliever present, this was applicable to him! And for what reason would they be cut off? If they did not continue in His (God's) goodness! What did that mean? If they did not continue in those things which accompany salvation. If they did not do good works!

Do you see were we are at now?

What you and your ilks have been saying is that salvation can be lost by non-performance of good works. In short, that good works saves.

You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.

I don't believe and I've never preached that salvation can be lost by works. You can't lose your salvation to fornication or stealing or lies or to any such thing. Salvation can only be lost through unbelief; by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief.

The fornicator brother in 1Cor 5, sleeping with his stepmom; Paul said they should deliver him into the hands of satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved.

You can't deliver someone into the hands of satan if he is already in his hands. Meaning that the unrepentant fornicator brother with all his in.cest is still in the hands of Christ.

And infact it is his body that is being delivered into the hands of satan for buffeting and destruction if he doesn't repent. His soul and spirit still remains in the hands of Christ.

This proves that salvation is not lost by sin or by carnality. It is lost only by unbelief, by departing from the faith in Christ.

A carnal christian is called a "babe in Christ", meaning he is still "in Christ". So carnality does not cost believers their salvation; even though it will cost them reward and greatness. Every sin is unto spiritual demotion but only unbelief is unto spiritual death.

Only believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation and are cut off from Christ, not those who commit sins or are carnal. So no one is preaching works here.

How do we receive God's goodness? By putting our faith in Christ. And how do we continue in God's goodness? By keeping the faith by which we received His goodness; by not departing from faith in Christ and reverting into unbelief.

To continue in God's goodness is to keep the faith in Christ by which you received the goodness. It is not by doing good works. Also, to not continue in God's goodness, is not by doing evil works; it is by not keeping the faith, it is by departing from the faith. And believers who don't keep the faith but revert into unbelief will be cut off.

No one is saying salvation is gained or lost by works. Salvation is received through faith and only lost by departing from the faith. And a believer can depart from the faith according to the Holy Spirit.

5solas:
The reason I have given above is sufficient for this also, but to add to it, your ilks would not even distinguish if the muslim was in church or in faith, all you will be quick to say is that he has lost his salvation. Is they a departure from the faith that does not involve evil works? Once again I tell you that your striving is about works. You are advocating good works and continuance in good works for salvation. It is that simple.

How is it any of my business to know who is in the faith and who is not in the faith? Are my the Holy Spirit? My judgment doesn't count, because I don't know men's heart.

But the Holy Spirit who knows men's heart, says some people in the faith will depart from the faith in the last days.

That's it! I'm using what the Holy Spirit said to establish doctrine. He didn't say some believers will become fornicators and thiefs. No! He said some believers will become unbelievers.

He said some people who believe in Christ will depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

The Spirit wasn't talking about evil works here; He wasn't talking about a believer becoming a carnal christian. He was talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever. About someone in the faith reverting into unbelief in Christ.

No one is preaching that salvation is gained or lost by any good works or evil works respectively. But that salvation is received by faith in Christ, and lost by departure from faith in Christ.

And not only can that happen; the Holy Spirit said it will happen!

Shalom!

Jozzy4:
The Op asked : where are our anscestors who had died ? You started saying gospel is preached to them !

I) Where are they ? Thats the question

That's the point I was making; that since the dead can still hear the gospel after death according to 1Peter 4v6; then our ancestors and all who died before the gospel got to them are either in heaven or hell, depending on whether they reject or accept the gospel of Christ after hearing it in death.

1Peter 4v6 -For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Jozzy4:
Ii) since there is provision to preach for the dead , everyone can use their lives anyhow since preaching continue afta death , isnt it ?

No, our lives on earth determing our glorification and greatness in the ages to come (millenial reign and eternity).

So just accepting the gospel and becoming a heaven-bound christian is good but not good enough or perfect.

There is the calling of salvation; and there is the high calling of service. Salvation determines where you will spend eternity; but service determines our reward and greatness in the kingdom.

Philippians 3v14 -I press toward the mark for THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.

There is the prize of the high calling in Christ for those who press. So our lives on earth matter.

Jozzy4:
Iii ) you also said God kingdom will be established on earth ! Empty earth , How ? Aftrall the goal of many christians is to make heaven not earth . Explain pls .

No, heaven is not the eternal home of the believers. After the millenial reign of Christ with the Church on earth; we will not go back to heaven. The new Jerusalem (the eternal home of the new creation) will come down from heaven to earth with the Father. And planet earth will be the universal headquarters of the kingdom of God.

Rev 3v12 -Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, WHICH COMETH DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 2v10 -And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,

After the millenial reign on earth, it is not the church that will go back up; it is the city of God and the saints (the new Jerusalem) that will come down to earth.

Shalom!

Krystalzkris:
then why sharing it at death since its no longer important

Atleast those who hear the gospel in death will still make heaven, if they accept it; even though they were never vessels through which the kingdom is being advanced on earth (which has its reward in the age to come).

But making heaven is still very very important. It is eternally better than going to the lake of fire.

Krystalzkris:
then why not leave the gospel till when we die,shebi we can still hear it in death

The gospel is not just for getting people to heaven, it is also for establishing God's kingdom on earth as it is heaven. Those who hear it in death cannot fulfil that mandate.

Krystalzkris:
over the years,I have been wondering where all those who never knew about christianity would go when they die.. The bible and our christian leaders will tell you that you need to believe in christ Jesus to be saved and have eternal life,else you would perish,and that got me thinking what would become of our african ancestors and all other ancient people who never heard of christ...

Well, the bible did not say much, if at all, on what will happen to those who died before hearing the gospel of Christ. So no one can give an answer that is authoritative to that effect.

But I believe we can use what the bible did say to make plausible assumptions. But we should not make a doctrine out of an assumption, but just keep it as what it is -an opinion.

The bible did say or imply that the gospel can be preached even to the dead.

1Peter 4v5 -Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

v6  For for this cause was the gospel preached also TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This passage said everyone will stand and give account to Christ; alive or dead (including those who died before the time of Christ, or before the gospel got to them.)

Then it said; for this reason; was the gospel also preached to them that are dead; those who died before the time of Christ or before the gospel got to them.

This verse makes it clear that the gospel can be preached and heard even after death.

So while I am not saying authoritatively that this is how God will judge those who died before hearing the gospel; that verse did however prove that the dead can still hear the gospel. And we can very well assume it is one just way to judge such people.

We should know that God is a just God who will not condemn to the lake of fire people who didn't belief in Jesus because they didn't hear of him. They didn't reject the gospel, they just didn't hear of it.

So I believe since according to the scripture the gospel can be preached even after death; that would be a plausible opinion on what happens to those who didn't hear the gospel in their lifetime. They can hear it in death.

So that they would all hear it and be given the privilege to accept and reject like everyone who heard it in life; before they stand before Christ.

Its my personal opinion, not a doctrine.

Shalom!

5solas:
The elects are those who were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Yes, even before the fall, they are those whom God chose to save. Scriptures regarding them are endless. That is why Christ would call such, '' my sheep''.

Now to your claim that God only chose to save some.

There is no one that is not on God's "To save" list.

See this;

2Peter 2v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

It said God does not want ANYONE to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance. Does this verse remotely suggest that there are some people God does not want saved?

See this verse too;

1Tim 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

How many people does this verse say God wants saved? ALL MEN! God wants ALL MEN to be saved!

Does this verse even require any further breaking down to show you that there is no one who is not on God's "To save" list?

See this verse too;

Ezekiel 33v11 - As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:

See that? God almost swore on His life here; that as surely as He lives He doesn't desire the death of any sinner, but that they should all turn (repent) and live (be saved).

So unless you want to say God lied under oath, this scripture shows that repentance and salvation is His desire and heartbeat for ALL MEN -not a select few.

See this verse too;

Titus 2v11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN,

How many people did the grace of God unto salvation appear unto? ALL MEN! And you said God desired only the salvation of some not all. When He extended the grace that brings salvation to all men.

See this verse too;

1John 2v2 -And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

See that? Did Jesus propitiate (atone and appease God) for only the sins of a select few? NO! Jesus atoned and appeased the Father on behalf of, and for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

God is not a tease; He won't pay for your ticket, if He doesn't want you on board. Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world because everyone is on His "To save" list.

See this verse too;

2Cor 5v19 -To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

See that? When Jesus hung on that cross, how many people was God reconciling unto Himself? Only a few or the whole world? Scripture says the WORLD.

The death of Christ was for the reconciliation of the entire world to God. No one is intended of Christ to remain estranged to the Father after His death. His suffering was for the reconciliation of the whole world to God.

I can bring up more verses. But if all these verses still roll off your back with indifference to the fact that God wants ALL MEN SAVED AND RECONCILED to Him; then more scriptures won't make any difference.

Everyone who is not born again or saved after hearing the gospel is unsaved because he chose to reject God's offer of salvation -its not become God doesn't want to save such a person.

And here are scriptures that's show that God's offer of grace and invitation unto salvation can be rejected by man.

John 1v5 -He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Luke 13v34 -O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not (ye refused)!

Romans 10v21 -But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Acts 7v51 -Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 13v46 -Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

All these scriptures show that God's invitation can be rejected, His offer can be turned down; and His call unto salvation or service can be rescinded by man.

God's will is not always done; and it is not always imposed over man's freewill or right of choice to accept or reject the call.

Those who perish, perish because they chose to reject God's offer of salvation. Not because God didn't want to save them.

Shalom.

5solas:
To properly understand this verse you have to consider it with other verses of the Bible and also ask yourself some questions. Is the verse saying we do something to get us elected or keep us elected? The obvious answer is , no. The verse is an exhortation for believers to continue to live right. Right living is the mark of a believer , of one who is saved, who is elect. If after your believing you see the character traits of a believer, then you are a believer and an elect. This is what the verse is saying. So that if an unbeliever were in their midst deluding himself that he was saved, he had a way to check to see if he really was . It is for the same reason Paul said to examine oneself to see if one was truly in the faith. So we see that even a letter addressed to believers also tries to address the unbeliever that might be present with them. When we give a message in church we also have a word for the unbeliever, sometimes indirectly.

Nice try but you missed it again.

The people Paul warned about being cut off if they did not continue in God's goodness are people already standing by faith. These are not people deluding themselves to be believers. These are believers!

Read it again;

Romans 11v20 -20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

An unbelieving church-goer who is deluding himself to be saved; is he standing by faith? Has he been engrafted into Christ? And does he have the life of the vine in him? Absolutely not! He is not standing by faith, he is not engrafted into Christ; and he does not have the life of the vine.

Unbelievers and pretenders are not standing by faith. Someone not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off. The people Paul warned about being cut off, are believers in Christ, who are engrafted into Christ and are standing by faith.

See the verses in full;

Romans 11v20 -Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

v21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

v22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Who are the "thee" that God shall not spare, and the "thou" that shall also be cut off, if they don't continue in God's goodness by keeping the faith? It is clearly those "thou" that are "standing by faith". The warning was obviously addressed to believers.

And why would a believer be warned about being cut off from Christ as an unbeliever?

It is because a believer can depart from the faith and revert into unbelief. Simple!

And also this verse that you've all being tip-toeing around, trying to give a meaning other than the obvious; also proves that a believer can revert into unbelief.

1Tim 4v1 -Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

These people that the Holy Spirit told Paul would depart from the faith are not unbelievers deluding themselves. These are believers!

I can't depart from America, because I was never in America. I can only depart from where I was or had been.

Only someone in the faith can depart from the faith. Not someone pretending to be a believer or pretending to be in the faith.

There are athiests that go to church, sing, dance and maybe even take communion. If he later stops going to church, did he depart from the faith? NO!

He didn't depart from the faith because he wasn't in the faith. He departed from church not from faith in Christ.

There are many muslims that attend Reinhard Bonnke's crusade. They don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God. They just came because they heard miracles are happening.

If that muslim leaves, did he depart from the faith? NO again! He was never in the faith.

You can't depart from the faith unless you were in the faith. And you can't depart from the faith and still remain in the faith.

Only someone who once truly had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have departed from the faith.

So clearly the people Paul warned about being cut off, and the ones the Holy Spirit said would depart from the faith; are believers in Christ who will not keep the faith. These are not unbelievers who were never in the faith or standing by faith, but just deluding themselves. These are believers in Christ.

A believer can depart from the faith! And the Holy Spirit said some will depart from the faith!

Shalom!