spencerwilliams:
If you naturally have long heir like the white women,you need not to cover your head,because it was given to you by God. But if you have the black woman's heir you have to cover it,because you do not naturally have long heir,it is wrong to use relaxers and attachments and say "Long heir is given for a covering" that attachment is not your heir and thus it was not GIVEN by God. So lets understand that fact. God bless you.

Is the veil you cover your hair with also given by God? Is the veil not added to the hair also? So why is long weave or long attachment or long braids not a covering enough for an african woman but a long veil is?

That's just turning semantics into doctrine. As long as a woman does not have a short hair, she is covered. Whether its natural, or brazillian, it is a covering. Trying to say weave is not a covering but veil is a covering, is turning semantics into doctrine.

Natural long hair, weave, wig, or veil are all coverings for the head.

Shalom!

chuna1985:
Pls stop quoting bible for me, As u rejected Koran quotations, So do I reject bible quotations.

You don't want bible quoted for you, yet you're on a thread with a topic that is about a bible quotation.

How ironic!

Shalom

chuna1985:
if ever many prophesies mirrored Jesus Christ, then it's guess work.

The entire law and the prophets is full of prophecies, symbols and shadows that mirror the Christ and testify of Him.

Luke 24v27 And beginning at Moses and ALL the prophets, He (Jesus) expounded unto them in IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES the things concerning himself.

You see that? All the scriptures (the law, the prophets, the gospels, the epistles) testify of Christ, and mirror His life and His ministry.

Shalom!

chuna1985:
"""v23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us"""

A virgin also gave birth in India and his name is Krishna... I guess this is triple prophesy. Ode.

Where is Krishna in the bible?

Show me where any Krishna virgin birth appeared in the scriptures, then you would be making sense.

Because something has to be in the Word of God for it to be sound doctrine or spiritually sesnsible.

1Cor 4v6 -...that ye might learn in us not to think of men ABOVE THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN,

You see this? To esteem anyone or any opinion above what is written and can be found in God's word is false doctrine and heresis. Only what is written in the scriptures is the standard of measuring truth.

And according to the scriptures, only the Isaiah 7 child and Jesus fulfilled the (dual) prophecy of the virgin birth. Not any Krishna or Krashni?

Shalom!

OLAADEGBU:


Do you believe there are other aliens out there?

As a matter of fact I do. I believe there are other civilizations out there, or that there will be in the course of eternity. Old creations of God that are waiting for the new creation government of Christ.

Below is an article I wrote about this issue some few days back. Its my personal opinion based on my interpretation of some scriptural verses.

Please feel free to be opinionated about the points or have a different interpretation. Agreeing or disagreeing with these points does not add to or subtract from salvation through faith in Christ.

<<< There are some scriptures in the bible that "hint" or suggests to me the idea that there just might be other civilizations out there somewhere in the universe; or that there will be in the course of eternity.

The first scripture that suggest there might be other civilizations out there is this:

1. The increase of His government, there shall be no end.

Isaiah 9v7 - Of the INCREASE of His government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Notice it didn't say "His government shall never end"; it said, "the INCREASE of His government shall never end."

If planet earth is the only civilization in the entire universe, then it means once the New Jerusalem comes down to earth and the government of Christ is fully established on earth; that would be all. There would be nowhere else for the kingdom of God to be established or for the government of Christ to increase and extend to.

But this scripture states that the government of Christ will continue to increase and extend for eternity, which suggests that there are civilizations out there (or there will be in the course of eternity) where the government of Christ will increase and extend to after it has been established on earth.

That is the only rational interpretation for "the INCREASE of His government there shall be no end." You can't have the increase of His government for eternity; if planet earth is and will be the only civilization in the universe. Can you?

Governments increase by adding other territories to their kingdom or to their rule. And governments are established over civilizations and intelligent life forms, not over non-living things.

The second scripture that suggest there just might be other civilizations out there is this:

2. His name shall be in our foreheads; and we shall reign forever.

Revelation 22v4-5 -And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither the light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign forever and ever.

His name being on our foreheads doesn't just show we belong to Him; but also that we are sent from Him. It is the mark of ambassadorial representation, when we mediate for Him. That is how bondservants who go on errands for their master are marked or branded.

This vaguely suggest that we will be sent of God as Kingdom ambassadors in the course of eternity. Question is; sent to where? And to who? Are there other lands? Other civilizations out there? Creations of God, awaiting His new creation government?

We are called priests and kings for a reason. Priests are mediators; and they represent God before others. And Kings are royalty; they reign over others. If we are going to be priests and kings that mediate and reign for eternity; then it means that there are, or there will be others.

We will not reign as kings over each other as new creation; only Christ will reign over us. We will reign as kings over others. And I don't believe those "others" are angels. Angels are ministering spirits for heirs of salvation; more like Personal assistants to royalties.

Those we will mediate for and reign over can only therefore be people who are neither angels nor part of the new creation.

Then the third scripture that suggest there just might be other civilizations out there is this:

3. The healing of the nations.

Rev 22v2 -In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Its needful to know, that at this point in the scheme of things, God has already created a new heaven and a new earth. A perfect earth without death, sorrow, sickness, infirmity or pain any longer. The former things have passed away in this earth.

Rev 21v1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

v4 -And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No imperfection or anything of the old order will exist on this new earth when the New Jerusalem comes down. Suggesting therefore that whatever nations will still need healing at this point cannot be of this new earth. Meaning that, there are, or there will be, civilizations or worlds with nations -that are not of the new earth.

These are probably such nations outside the new earth that are still waiting for the establishment of the kingdom of God, and for the government of Christ to be extended to them. Other creations of God waiting for His new creation government.

Infact I believe what we call the millenial reign is a 1000-year training for what we will do as believers for all eternity. I believe planet earth is only the first civilization that will be colonized with the new creation gospel of the kingdom; and also the training ground for those through whom God will extend that government to the rest of the universe.

Christians and people who think we will just sing praises and float around in white garments for all eternity need to think again. The kingdom of God is a full-fledged kingdom; with a government and rule that will continue to increase for all eternity.

I don't believe God created billions of galaxies and trillions of planets just to fill up space or just to beautify our night sky. No! Our God is very deliberate and "on-purpose". This thing called "the gospel of the kingdom" is an everlasting gospel (Rev 14v6). >>>

Shalom.

OLAADEGBU:
Why will the nations need healing in the New Jerusalem? If the New Earth is perfect, without sin and death, what will be the purpose of the tree of life?

Maybe those nations are not of this earth. They could be nations of other civilizations out there, nations of other worlds in the universe still waiting for the government of Christ.

tartar9:
good! another deception,the correct translation is "young woman" not virgin

The word used in that verse is the hebrew word "almah", and it translates into maiden or damsel, specifically a virgin damsel (unmarried or newly married).

In scriptural usage, "almah" is always used for a woman who has never known a man.

There is no where "almah" was used in scripture for a woman who is not a virgin.

"Almah" is different from "Na'arah".

Na'arah also means damsel or maiden but it is not specific to a virgin damsel.

Na'arah was used to describe Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, even after she had had sex with a man.

Gen 34v1 -And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.

v2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.

v3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel (Na'arah), and spake kindly unto the damsel (Na'arah).

Dinah was still called damsel here, even after she had known a man, but the word used is "Na'arah" not "Almah". Na'arah means damsel, but not specific to a virgin damsel, it means damsel, whether virgin or not.

Another hebrew word translated damsel is the word "Yaldah". It simply means young girl, virgin or not.

Gen 34v4 And Shechem spake unto his father Hamor, saying, Get me this damsel (Yaldah) to wife.

This word (yaldah) was used to describe Dinah again, even after she had known a man. So its also not specific to virgins.

Na'arah = damsel (virgin or not)

Yaldah = young girl (virgin or not)

Almah = maiden or damsel (virgin)

Almah was never used in scripture for a non-virgin damsel. The word is specific to virgins, a woman who has not known a man.

So the prophecy of Isaiah 7 is talking about a virgin damsel. If it was just a damsel or young girl (virgin or not), the scripture would use Na'arah or Yaldah.

Shalom

tartar9:
nonsense! the prophecy clearly refers to Ahaz.if it can be used for more than one person, then it could be used for thousands of persons after Ahaz, what now makes it a prophecy?

How many virgin births were recorded in the bible for this prophecy to be applicable for thousands of persons?

gbaskiphylle:

This is one of the reasons I don't like all this theological explanations giving excuses for falsehood...which one is dual prophesy again?...the scripture cited and explained by the op is straightforward...of what benefit was the prophesy of Jesus birth to Ahaz?...When errors are pointed out,we either attack the op or give flimsy explanations instead of looking at the issue objectively...Thanks Op...I totally agree with you!

What is flimsy about the explanations of dual prophecy? You can say you don't agree with the explanation but not that it is flimsy.

I showed clearly from scriptures prophecies that were referring to two people at the same time, or that were fulfilled by two people in scripture. Those are what is called dual prophecies. Prophecies that were both direct to individuals and also messianic.

If you've not heard of it before then do more study of the bible, with an open, objective mind; not with a mind on a fault-finding mission.

The dual prophesy of Christ birth in the prophesy of Isaiah to Ahaz doesn't have to be of any relevance to Ahaz, because that part was not for him, but for those who will be reading it many years later in the scripture when it is unveiled.

Did Cyrus the persian have any idea also that what he was doing to Babylon was a prophecy from God about him; and also a type and shadow of the ministry of the Christ that was to come?

Did Zerubbabel have any idea too? Did Aaron the high priest too?

All these men are types and shadow of the life and ministry of Christ. And they didn't have any idea for the most part that they were. It is under the new testament that we see all these mysteries that were sealed and veiled under the old testament now unsealed and unveiled.

Even the bible characters that were given those prophecies couldn't see its connection to the coming Messiah, even though the prophecies given to them were also partly messianic prophecies about the coming Christ.

A prophecy can be fulfilled by two people in scripture. Many prophecies of what happened literally to some bible characters were also a prophetic foreshadow of what happened to Christ much later. E.g Jacob and Jesus; Solomon and Jesus etc

Such are called dual prophecies.

Just as the birth of that child was a sign to Ahaz that God would save and deliver Judah from the hands of the kings of Syria and Israel; it also secondly foreshadows how that the virgin birth of Christ was also a sign of God's salvation plan for the world.

Ofcourse Ahaz couldn't have known how that sign or prophecy was equally partly connected to the Messiah (a messianic prophecy); because the revelation of Christ was sealed under the old. But it was also a prophecy of the coming birth of Christ and it was unsealed in the new testament.

Matthew 1v22 -Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

v23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

God's prophecy to Isaac was fulfilled physically in Jacob and fulfilled spiritually by Jesus. And both of them were Isaac's seed. The prophecy was both a literal prophecy about Jacob and a messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Also God's prophecy to David was also fulfilled physically by Solomon and fulfilled spiritually by Jesus; and both of them are David's seed.

Its you that need to be objective to see that a prophecy can be talking about two people at the same time. And a prophecy can be fulfilled in two people. Such is a dual prophecy.

The scripture about the birth of this child was both a literal prophecy about the child and also a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Shalom

Lanre747:


Let me shed light:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

THE LORD shall call him Immanuel... Did He?

Isaiah 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

He did not say "You shall name him Immanuel".
And even if this did not refer to this particular child, your thoughts should lead you to consider that whoever this child was, he would have to be born in the time of Isaiah, NOT hundreds of years later. The NT writers basically retrofitted prophecies, lol.

Thanks

There are some prophecies in scripture that can be called "Dual Prophecy". Either because they were fulfilled in two persons in scripture or because they were fulfilled two times in history.

And there are a few prophecies like that in scripture.

This is one;

Gen 26v4 -And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in THY SEED shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Here God is talking about two persons at the same time. About Jacob (Israel) and about Jesus Christ. This prophecy was fulfilled literally or physically in Jacob (Israel), and was fulfilled spiritually or symbolically in Jesus (It also will eventually be fulfilled physically and eternally in Jesus in the age to come).

Both Jacob and Jesus were both the seed of Abraham. Jacob is the seed of Abraham after the flesh; and Jesus is the seed of Abraham both after the flesh and after the Spirit.

Gal 3v16 -Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here is another dual prophecy

1Chronicles 22v9 -Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

v10 -He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

This is also a dual prophecy. This prophecy was talking literally about Solomon; but also symbolically or spiritually about Jesus. The prophecy was fulfilled in both Solomon and Jesus. Solomon and Jesus were both the seed of David, and they both built God a house.

Romans 1v3 -Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Matthew 16v18 -And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hebrews 3v3 -For this man (Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath BUILDED THE HOUSE hath more honour than the house.

There are many others verses in the old testament that are dual prophecies like these. Prophecies that were literally fulfilled in a biblical character but also fulfilled spiritually or symbolically, and even sometimes also physcially in Jesus.

Its good and needful to know and note that much of the old testaments is the veiled and sealed revelation of Christ Himself, unveiled and unsealed in the new testament.

A lot of the prophecies of the old testament mirror Christ, and what He came to do; is doing, or will do. So even though some prophecies were literally fulfilled in another biblical character, they were also fulfilled or are being fulfilled spiritually and symybolically in Christ Himself.

Many bible characters; Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, Immanuel, Cyrus, Zerubbabel, to mention a few; all had prophecies about them that also mirror the Christ. Their lives and/or ministries are old testament types and shadows of the life and ministry of Jesus.

So most times, literal prophecies about these men are also symbolic or spiritual or also physical prophecies about Jesus Himself. Making them dual prophecies.

Shalom

otr1:

Actually, the woman being referred to is the body of Christ, the CHURCH.
Just as this woman represents the true church, the woman in Revelation 17 riding a beast represents an apostate church.

I've also considered the possibility that the woman could represent the church. Because the two major characters in the bible that are usually represented as bride or woman are Israel or the church.

But one reason I believe the Rev 12 woman is Israel or Jerusalem and not the church is because the woman brought forth the man child (Jesus, the last Adam), not the other way around.

The church did not bring forth the Christ, Christ brought forth the church. Just as Adam brought forth Eve, not the other way around. If that woman is the church, it would imply that the church brought forth the Christ -which is doctrinally incorrect. Unless you don't think the man child is Jesus.

I believe the woman represents Israel or Jerusalem because it was Jerusalem that brought forth the man child (last Adam); not the church.

And this verses agrees with it:

Isaiah 66v7,8,10 -Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a MAN CHILD.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as ZION travailed, she brought forth her children.

10  Rejoice ye with JERUSALEM, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

According to this verses, Jerusalem brought forth the man child.

And also the other woman in Rev 17, according to the bible is Babylon (Rev 17v5). And Babylon represents the satan-controlled kingdom of this world and her antichrist religious, political and economic systems. Those are the three parts Babylon was eventually divided into (Rev 16v19). Its not just the apostate church.

otr1:
The book of Revelation and few others are not to be taken literarily. They're symbolic. Only a fool will be expecting to see a woman clothed with the sun or a woman riding a beast.

Some parts of the book of revelation are to be understood literally, like the millenial reign, the white throne judgment, the description of the lake of fire and new Jerusalem. Those are literal descriptions that would be seen. They are not symbolic.

But I agree 100% with the statement in bold red.

But please feel free to show me the points that makes you think the Rev 12 woman represents the church. We all know in part.

Shalom

dionflex:


And You Clearly Stated Before that The Woman Isn't Mary. How come Israel Is Now The Mother Of Jesus Christ? Can You Explain That From The Bible?

I already explained that the woman in Rev 12, that gave birth to the man child (Jesus the last Adam) is not Mary. The woman represents Israel; or Jerusalem specifically -the place Jesus rose from the dead as the last Adam.

Isaiah 66v7,8,10 -Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a MAN CHILD.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as ZION travailed, she brought forth her children.

10  Rejoice ye with JERUSALEM, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Can you see now? The woman that brought forth the man child is Zion or Jerusalem. Zion travailed when Jesus hung on the cross; and she brought forth her man child when Jesus rose from the dead as the last Adam.

The woman in that Rev 12 is not Mary, it is Jerusalem. And that interpretation further proves true because just as the woman was persecuted by the dragon after the man child ascended, and she ran into the wilderness, and the dragon now turned its wrath on the remnant of her seed.

Rev 12v13-14 -And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So also, after Jesus the last Adam ascended, Jerusalem was persecuted and destroyed by the roman army, and the jews were scattered abroad and the land was desolate. Then the devil turned its wrath on the remnant of her seed (Jesus), that is the church, believers in Christ Jesus.

None of the interpretation of that vision applied to Mary. Was she specifically persecuted after Christ's ascension, or given wings to fly into the wilderness? That interpretation only applies to the experience of Israel and Jerusalem under satan-controlled roman empire after Jesus ascended.

The woman of Rev 12 is Zion (the nation of Israel, or Jerusalem specifically).

Shalom.

esherizdan:

thank u my broda some gullible Christians will turn DAT place to a worship center.its close to my area u mid to see d numb a of pple trooping DAT place

Its really sad.

OLAADEGBU:
Is the Adam and Eve story to be understood literally? Why is it so important for the account of Adam and Eve to be interpreted literally?

The story of Adam and Eve is a literal story. They were literal living beings with souls.

Gen 2v7 -And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And remember also that Jesus is the second Adam. If the second Adam is a literal being, who came to redeem us from the consequences of the sin of the first Adam. Then the first Adam must have been a literal being who sinned.

Secondly, if Adam and Eve were an allegory, then from where do we trace the genealogy of mankind?

There is no account of God ever going back to the ground to create a new set of mankind from which we can trace the literal lineage of man, if indeed Adam and Eve were myths or an allegory.

All the genealogy in scripture traced the genealogy of man all the way to Adam or from Adam.

Luke 3v38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

If Adam and Eve were myths or allegory, the genealogy would not be possible, because it would mean that literal beings were born of allegorical beings, Adam and Eve.

The only other option would therefore be to conclude that every other bible character and story were allegories. Noah and the flood, the catching up of Enoch, Abraham, Lot, etc. Because they were born of Adam and Eve.

But Enoch was called the seventh from Adam, meaning Enoch, a literal being, was seventh generation of the lineage of Adam.

Jude 1v14 -And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Adam must have been a literal being for him to be the seventh generation parent of another literal being.

The scripture did make sure claims that all these bible characters were literal beings. And that the serpent did really beguile Eve (2Cor 11v3)

Literal men were condemned to death by the sins of a literal man, Adam. Not the sin of an allegory. That is why they needed to be saved by the obedience of another literal man, the last Adam.

Adam and Eve and their lives are literal stories, not allegories.

Shalom.

Jozzy4:


You finally confirmed my words , you are so good at selective interpretation . @underlined So a part of the seals is symbolic while other parts are literal ? uh

That's the truth of the book of revelation. Some are literal, some are symbolic, some are spiritual, and some are physical (eg millenial reign, white throne judgment).

That's why to understand revelation, there is no room for lazy generalization. You must prayerfully meditate on it and compare its texts with other verses of the bible.

Those who say, all of revelation is symbolic, or all of revelation is literal, etc are the ones that come up with bogus and phoney interpretation.

Trying to streamline the book of revelation into a single style of interpretation (say only symbolic or only literal) will lead one to false doctrines and heresis.

Above all though, no matter how studious or meditative we get with the word, we still need to prayerfully ask the Holy Spirit to open our understanding. It is His book, He inspired its writers; so only Him knows it all.

Shalom

Jozzy4:

Off point !
by physical, i mean literal

Are The four horsemen literal or symbolic representations ?

They could be either of the two (literal or symbolic). Because one of the horsemen is called death; and hell followed behind him. That sounds symbolic.

But the other horsemen had no such names, just descriptions. So they could be literal.

But they are all definitely spiritual (spiritual beings or spiritual events). None was physical, or could be seen physically. They are all either literal spiritual beings or symbolic spiritual events in the realm of the spirit.

Shalom

Jozzy4:


This guy and selective interpretation , this 1-4 seals ar SYMBOLIC but the fifth seal of souls under the altar is physical right ?

None of the seals were physical. I said they were all seen spiritually. A spiritual vision can be a literal occurence, but it happened in the realm of the spirit; not seen physically.

The seven angels blowing the trumpet is a literal spiritual occurence, but no physical eye will see them. So also, the souls under the alter are literal, but spiritual. Can you physically see a soul?

Not everything in Revelation was symbolic, some were literal. But John saw everything in the spirit, spiritually. Spiritual and symbolic don't mean the same thing. A spiritual event can be literal, but not physical.

You get?

Shalom

italo:
God help you.

Amen. And you too. Thanks!

italo:
. How do you know?
You seem to have a personal relationship with the demons.

God bless you

italo:


Sent as the mother of God, the Ark that bore Jesus the New Covenant in her womb maybe.

Some of those who saw her claim to be in the Spirit like Elizabeth when she saw Mary.

All those spirits you mentioned...are they the ones that are teaching you these devilish doctrines?

Funny! You must be a comedian.

Actually those demons are the ones appearing and pretending to be Mary.

Honestly, this discussion is no more intelligent to me. God bless!

Shalom.

italo:


Those who have claimed to see Marian apparitions have also claimed to be in the spirit.

Is it okay then?

"In the spirit" like those in Kaduna were abi? They must have been "in the same spirit" like Simon the socerer, or the girl with the spirit of divination, or like Bar Jesus the magician.

There are plenty spirits. So you may be right. Such people were in the "spirit". Even those who saw their dead grandfather were in the "spirit".

Appearance of Mary! Sent as what? By whom? For what? What relevance is she to the new covenant, other than she was saved by it like everyone else? Hmmm, smh

Shalom

italo:


Where did the bible say it wasn't physical?

Which chapter and verse?

Rev 4v1-2 -After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

See that? John saw it in the Spirit. The vision was a spiritual vision, with symbolic representation for what was to come.

The four horsemen, the angels of the seven trumpets, and the woman of Rev 12, were all seen spiritually by John. They were not physical appearance.

Ofcourse, they all represent physical realities or that their actions will cause physical events. But the angels and the woman were not seen physically.

It was a spiritual vision.

Shalom

italo:


Keep going round in circles.

Gentile now means Gentile+Jewish.

After we busted your error.

Well done.

Meanwhile, is Israel the only country that can appear in the sky...or can Nigeria also appear?

What part of "symbolic" vision don't you understand? The appearance was not physical it was a spiritual vision and John saw them as symbolic representation.

Do you think the four horsemen were physically seen on earth the way it appeared to John?

Do you think the angels blowing the seven trumpets were physically seen in the sky the way it appeared to John in the vision?

Do you think the angels pouring the wrath of God were physically seen on earth the way it appeared to John in the vision?

The vision of Rev 12 appeared as a vision to John with symbolic representation about Israel and the church under the roman empire etc.

Its not Mary, or any dead saint. Its not a physical appearing either.

Shalom

italo:
scriptural antecedence show that saints appear on earth. E.g Elijah, Moses, Matt 26 saints, Mary in Rev 12.

Elijah and Moses - appeared as covenant mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophets). Of which they are no more mediators. They can't appear to anyone as that anymore.

Matthew 26 saints - didn't appear from heaven, they were yet to ascend and were seen of many when they came out of their graves and appeared in the city. They are in heaven now; and won't be seen again until resurrection.

Rev 12 -that was not Mary. It was not mary that was persecuted after the ascension of Christ. Mary was not given wings to fly into the wilderness. That woman was symbolic of the nation of Israel and her experience under the satan-controlled roman empire after Christ's ascension.

Shalom

italo:


So the offspring of the woman is no more the Gentile Church. It is now both Jew and Gentile Church.

Just like you made Elijah a demon and also a covenant mediator.

Well done with your demonic doctrines which are not written in the bible.

Obviously you've run out of intelligent scriptural replies, you're now trying to argue semantics and terminologies.

Anyone with a brain, knows church is church; whether gentile or jewish. I used gentile church for specification, and to differentiate it from the jewish nation.

But if you were not being sinister, you would have known that even the "gentile" church includes jews who believe in Christ; because church of God is church of God.

And I repeat, the appearance of Elijah at transfiguration is not demonic because it has a valid scriptural justification.

But any such appearance now of a dead saint from heaven appearing to saints on earth, has no scriptural justification and can only be a demonic stunt to deceive the gullible.

Shalom

italo:


Elijah and Moses appeared from heaven.

It is up to you to show where the Bible said that they could only appear once as covenant mediators.

And that any other apparition of saints is demonic?

Which chapter, which verse?

What is the scriptural justification for church weddings and funerals?

They are demonic too abi?

There is also no verse in the bible that categorically says abortion is a sin. But scriptural antecedents show that a baby in the womb already has an identity and destiny with God (as with Jeremiah). So abortion is murder and termination of destiny.

So also, there are no verses that categorically says, dead saints in heaven cannot appear to saints on earth. But scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven are not messenger angels or mediators of the new covenant.

So any appearance claiming to be any dead saint is contrary to scriptural truths; and are therefore not of God. They are demonic.

Shalom

dmandy:


So in your own 'best and only acceptable' opinion, the Gentile Church was the offspring of Isreal.

Waoh.

A symbolic vision indeed which only you can interpret. hmmmmmmm

Rev 12v17 -And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In this passage, who is the seed of the woman? It is Jesus, the man child (Rev 12v5)

And who are the remnant of her seed (Jesus)? It is the believing jews and gentiles. That's why it said "those which have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

The remnant of the seed of the woman is the Church; believers in Christ; the seed of Abraham after the Spirit. While the woman herself is Israel; the seed of Abraham after the flesh.

Its not so hard.

Shalom

italo:
Which verse says that saints cannot appear on earth...

And that Elijah's apparition was demonic?

You're preaching demonic doctrines.

And which verse says saints in heaven can be sent to saints on earth? And don't give me Elijah, because he was clearly a mediator of the old covenant at that time; which he no longer is. And don't give me the Mattew 26 saints, they were clearly not from heaven.

You would really need to twist the scriptures or draw generalized conclusion to make the claim that saints in heaven can appear as messengers or mediators to saints on earth.

And I never said the appearance of Elijah at the transfiguration was demonic. Ofcourse theirs had a scriptural justification; because as at that time Elijah appeared together with Moses as mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophet).

But no apparition or appearance of Elijah now, or of Mary, or of Moses has any biblical scriptural basis anymore. Because they're not messengers or mediators anymore. Only Jesus is.

Saints in heaven will only be seen again at the resurrection or by saints who also die and go to heaven. Before then, any other appearance claiming to be them is demonic.

Shalom

italo:

The bold are demonic doctrines since they aren't found in the bible.

Its clearly in the bible. But people hate to see or admit or agree with anything that challenges their long held doctrinal bias.

Dead saints are not sent to earth as messengers or mediators from heaven. They are not angels or Jesus.

Any such appearances is demonic.

And I never said the appearance of Elijah at the transfiguration was demonic. Ofcourse theirs had a scriptural justification; because as at that time Elijah appeared together with Moses as mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophet).

But no apparition or appearance of Elijah now, or of Mary, or of Moses has any biblical scriptural basis anymore. Because they're not messengers or mediators anymore. Only Jesus is.

Saints in heaven will only be seen again at the resurrection; or by saints who also die and go to heaven. Before then, any other appearance claiming to be them is demonic.

Shalom

italo:


The one who appeared in Rev 12:1, who was she and what covenant was she mediating?

That woman represents Israel (the seed of Abraham after the flesh); the nation that brought forth the Messiah (the man child).

Notice that after the man child (Jesus) was taken up to heaven, the woman was persecuted by the dragon; after which she went into the wilderness for a while. And the dragon now turned its wrath to the remnant of her ofsprings (the gentile church or the seed of Abraham after the Spirit)

That's exactly what happened to the nation of Israel. Shortly after Jesus ascended, the nation of Israel was destroyed and laid fallow for many years. During which the devil focused his wrath on the gentile church.

The woman represents Israel, not Mary or any dead saint. It is a symbolic vision.

Shalom.

dmandy:


The dead who appeared in Jerusalem were they a kind of co-mediator of the new testament? Just asking.

They were not mediating anything. They just rose from the dead and came out of their graves; and appeared to saints in the city. They were not yet ascended to heaven then. But were seen before their bodily ascension.

They are in heaven now; and like every other saint in heaven, they don't appear to any saint on earth anymore.

Trust me, any apparition of a dead biblical saint that appears to you now, I ask you to rebuke it with faith in the name of Jesus, and see what happens. That's if you're a true believer yourself.

You will see that you were about to be led astray by an evil spirit. No heavenly saint is a messenger angel or covenant mediator. They have no business with earth anymore until the resurrection.

Shalom

dmandy:


If feels somehow that at some point it scriptural for saints to appear but at other times it is not. Anyways, When you said Scriptural antecedents I believe, you mean these?

1. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus

2. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

3. Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

4. They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


Now, you ask me 'if I any saints in heaven has appeared to saints on earth? Do you actually believe God cannot allow that? Is it impossible for God (all powerful to do) if He chose to.

If you don't believe in something, you can walk away. Calling it ungodly might mean doubting the power of God.

What do you think of the Jews, 'to them its impossible for a virgin to bear a son'.... and you say 'these people are foolish, how can they doubt the power of God?'

I believe in miracles, signs and wonders. I've seen blind eyes opened and deaf ears unstopped in the name of Jesus. I wasn't told, I was there.

But I only believe in signs that are scriptural and are based on truths in God's word. Because I know fully well that the enemy can also perform lying signs.

I believe angels can appear to people from heaven. And I believe Jesus too can appear to people from heaven. But that is because they are messenger angels and mediators of the new covenant.

But saints in heaven are not messenger angels, neither are they mediators of the new covenant. They don't appear to saints on earth from heaven.

Moses and Elijah appeared because up until then, they were the mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophets) that Jesus came to fulfill. And they appeared for that purpose.

What covenant is Mary mediating? What messaging is she delivering? Is she a messenger angel? Is she a covenant mediator?

All appartions of Mary, Enoch etc have no scriptural basis. They are demonic manipulations. God always operates by the standard of His word.

Shalom