₦airaland Forum

laribari:
Sorry my response was late and I believe we all have a life outside NL and can't always here to quickly respond to mentions. That said!

Please why do you think a believer can loose his or her salvation? I will be glad if we can run through these warnings together and also learn from each other.

This is the most important of what Jesus came to do and Also proved Himself as king or kings.

I'm glad we will stay within scriptures because I usually do not accept teachings or philosophy outside the word of God.

Welcome on board and I'm sure I'm people are waiting to learn from us..

I will just go to the point.

I don't think, I know a believer can lose his salvation because many scriptures make that claim clear.

Here are some of the scriptures that show that salvation can be lost and that "Once saved always saved" doctrine is unscriptural.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

This wasn't just Paul talking; this was Paul saying what the Holy Spirit told him expressly; that some will depart from the faith in the last days.

An unbeliever cannot depart from the faith because he was never in the faith. Only someone who once believed in Christ and no longer does, can be said to have departed from the faith.

And to depart from the faith is to lose the salvation. We are justified by faith (Romans 5v1) and saved by grace through faith (Eph 2v8). To depart from the faith through which we are justified and saved by grace is to lose the salvation. We can't depart from the faith and keep the salvation.

So if faith can be departed from, according to the Spirit; then salvation can be lost. Proving that, Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse.

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whote raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

This was Jesus talking; and He wasn't talking to unbelievers. He was talking to christians.

He said that believers who overcome, He will not blot out their names from the book of life. Meaning that christians who don't overcome (or keep the faith) will have their names blotted out.

This proves two things.

One; that being a christian and a member of the body of Christ does not automatically mean one will end an overcomer. If every christian will end an overcomer, no matter what; Jesus would not be telling them; "He that overcometh.."

And two; that christians who don't overcome will have their names blotted out of the book of life, which is the same thing as losing eternal life.

Rev 20v15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So if names written in the book of life can be blotted out; it means that eternal life and salvation can be lost by someone who once had it. Proving that; Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse;

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

This was Paul writing to the gentile believers, warning them not to be highminded and carefree about their salvation. That if they do not continue in God's goodness by staying in the faith ...they also shall be cut off.

Meaning that the scenario of being cut off from Christ is not an impossibility. A christian can let carnality and carefree-ness degenerate into unbelief and departure from the faith. And when that happens, that christian shall be cut off from Christ.

If it was impossible for a believer to be cut off from Christ, the scriptures will not warn us not to let it happen. And when one is cut off from Christ, he is no more saved. Proving again that salvation can be lost; and Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse;

2Thess 2v3 -Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Listen; this was Paul writing to believers about what will happen before the coming of Christ. And he said it will be preceeded by a falling away.

Note: the falling away is not referring to unbelievers. Unbelievers cannot fall away, because they were never standing. We stand by faith;

Romans 11v20 -...thou standest by faith.

2Cor 1v24 -...for by faith ye stand.

So only someone that once had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have "fallen away".

So the falling away is the great de-conversion from christianity that will happen in the end-times; of which we are already seeing a bit of it.

If a believer cannot later become an unbeliever, and if a christian can never be de-converted from faith in Christ; will the scripture talk about "falling away" as part of the signs of the end-times?

These proofs again that; "once saved always saved" is a false doctrine.

These are some of the scriptures that disprove "Once saved always saved" doctrine and show that:

1. A christian can depart from the faith

2. Names written in the book of life can be blotted out.

3. Someone once grafted into Christ can be cut off from Him.

4. A christian once standing by faith can fall away into unbelief.

If all these scenarios were impossible or can never happen; scriptures will not warn us of them.

You don't warn a fish about drowning because it can't drown. You don't warn people about things that can never happen to them. If believers are warned about departing from the faith, having their names blotted out of the book of life, being cut off from Christ and falling away, it is because it can happen to them. And the Spirit says some will depart from the faith.

This shows in no ambiguous terms and clarity that salvation can be lost. That "Once saved always saved" doctrine is false.

Shalom.

laribari:
This is the greatest secret of God hid in Christ. The world can never ever understand the mystery behind salvation and a man that is saved can loose it again. Except the person was never truly saved. How does born again work?

This is not true. A believer can lose his salvation. And there are many warnings addressed to believers in the epistles that make that fact clear.

Shalom!

joey150:
the church teachings and interpretation remains superior

no wonder saint Paul rebuked all those guarded by private. interpretation in 2peter 1:20-21" understanding this first that no prophecy or scripture is made by private interpretation"

saint paul strongly confirmed the superiority of the church in teachings of faith and belief in

Ephesians: 3. 10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Also in 1 Timothy: 3. 15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. remember he did not say the church is the pillar and foundation of truth as long as the bible determines her teaching.

Also in Matthew: 18. 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Jesus here confirms the superiority of the church.

The reason the church is the pillar of truth is because no man is an island of knowledge or a fountain of wisdom all by himself. As believers, we all see and know in part.

1Cor 13v9 - For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

We all know in part and see in part, and it is when we bring together the parts that we see and know as a church that we can fully see and understand the big picture of the counsel of God in His word.

That is why scripture said;

Psalm 19v9 -The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous ALTOGETHER

It is together that the truth and righteousness of God's judgment and counsel can be seen and understood. That is why and how the church come in as the pillar of truth.

But a church cannot just come up with a doctrine or tradition that can't be found in the written word of God, and when challenged, they claim the church is the pillar of truth not the bible. Say what?

Even when the first church council sat in Acts 15 to make deliberations and decisions about the gentile church in antioch, it was still the scriptures that they kept quoting to justify and establish their decision.

Acts 15v13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15  And to this agree the words of the prophets; AS IT IS WRITTEN, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Can you see that? The church council in Jerusalem used the written word to come up with the traditions and doctrines they postulated and passed down. They just did not pull doctrines out of their hat independently of the written word and claim the church is the pillar of truth not the scriptures.

I know what you're trying to do. You're try to say and argue that the catholic church is superior to the bible, because that is the only way you can justify the unscriptural doctrines you peddle. You want to say that the catholic church is the pillar of truth not the bible. And thereby claim that traditions the catholic church preach and hold to are true and sound whether they are found in the scriptures or not.

Brother, you can only sell that argument to ignorant christians. All the traditions and doctrines that the early church postulated and passed down always passed the test of agreement with the written word.

Acts 15v13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:... 15  And to this agree the words of the prophets; AS IT IS WRITTEN,

Can you see that? The church that is the pillar of truth is the church that its traditions and doctrines agree with the written word of God, not a church that preaches and practises things that can't be found anywhere in the written word of God.

Mary praying for believers is not found in the written word. Asking dead saints to pray for us is not found in the written word. Purgatory, rosary prayers etc and many other catholic traditions, are not found in the written word. So she can't be a pillar of truth, when she preaches and practises things that can't be found in the written word.

Shalom!

joey150:
revelations 21v14 sadly has nothing to do with what you are trying to explain. not one bit. even if it did, if the apostles also taught them some traditions by word of mouth isnt it still a valid teaching then, seeing that they themselves adviced the faithfuls to cling onto the traditions passed to them either by word or epistle. Acts2:3-6 the holy spirit gave the apostles the gift of SPEAKING in different languages and not WRITING in different languages. this shows empasis is not strictly on the written words of God.

matthew 28v20, alot of things Jesus told the apostles where also not extensively included in the bible. my point is words written down have never only been the source of wisdom.
so if you say to me that every tradition was included in the bible that will be very false.

These statements in bold right there are the very quicksand and slippery slope of heresis in the church and body of Christ;

"That just because something is not written in the bible doesn't mean it is not a sound doctrine or a tradition of the early church"

Brother, once you believe that line, you have opened the door to the pandora's box of every false doctrine in your life. Because it is on the premise of that line that many heresis are justified -claiming that a doctrine is not in the bible because it was passed down by word of mouth and not by epistle. Seriously?!

The written word of God is called a "MORE SURE word of prophecy" (2Peter 1v19) for a reason. It is because it is the foundation on which every opinion, tradition, prophecy and doctrine must be tested to be proved as true or false.

That was why when Jesus was being tempted, He kept saying, "It is written, It is written".

If Jesus Christ the Word of God used the written word as the foundation of truth and premise for rejecting what the devil told Him to do; how much more should we reject what is not written too?

No wonder scripture said;

Isaiah 8v20 - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Can you see that? Anyone who says anything that is not according to the revealed word of God in the scriptures, has no light in him.

So don't tell me a doctrine is not in the bible because it was passed down by word of mouth. It is not in the bible because it is not the word of God but the opinion of man.

Or wait! If it tell you that polygamy is sound doctrine, that it is not in the epistles because it was passed down by word of mouth, you will believe me? Or if I tell you that mercy-killing or honour-killing is a sound doctrine, and it was passed down by word of mouth, that's why its not in the epistles, you will believe me? Or you will believe if the pope says it?

Listen, the written word, the scriptures is the premise of truth, and the foundation on which every doctrine, prophecy, and tradition must be judged to be proved as true or false.

Jesus used "it is written" to judge and reject what the devil told Him to do. And we too should use what is written to judge what we are told, and reject it if it is not according to what is written.

Hmmm! Passed down by word of mouth! Its a tradition that wasn't written down! Seriously?!

Shalom!

joey150:
saint paul was clearly speaking to the faithfuls in 2Thessalonians 2:15 saint paul was clearly speaking to the faithfuls and in philipians 4:9 saint paul also did the same.but accordinh to you they cannot be considered as SCRIPTURES but they are in your HOLY bible. and yet you claim its catholic invented. and yet you claim that every thing must be stated in the same bible for you to believe. do you even listen to yourself?

I have read 2Tim 3v16;

2Tim 3v16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And it is true. But trying to include your catholic books in what is considered scripture is wrong. When apostle Paul said "All Scripture" here, the catholic books are not among them.

And these other verses you've been hammering on;

2Thess 2v15 -Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How is the doctrine of purgatory part of the traditions that was handed down by the word or epistle of the apostles? Because according to you, purgatory is one of the traditions handed down by the writers of the scriptures. Yet you can't show me where, except from your catholic books that are not scriptures.

Then this too;

Phillipians 4v9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Again, how and where is the doctrine of purgatory part of what was received and heard from Paul the apostle? How and where? Paul didn't preach it, Jesus didn't, none of the apostles did. Only catholics do, from books that are not scripture.

joey150:
in revelation 22:18-19,this shows how wrong people go about interpreting the bible from the comfort of their homes.
i want you to clearly Note 2 things.
1. it referred to the words of prophecy and NOT to the entire scriptures.
2. it CLEARLY referred to a SINGULAR BOOK. and not the entire books of the holy bible. it never referrred to books in plural.
it is also important to note that when saint John wrote down revelations 22:18-19, we did not have the holy bible as we have it today. so how could he have even referred to the holy bible, talk less of the apostolic traditions and teachings of the Holy catholic church. i had to put that in bold to correct that popular misconception most protestants sing about in regards to that verse. problem solved.

It is not just Revelation 22v18-19 that shows that only the doctrines preached by the apostles can be considered scripture. It is also proved in the description of the City of the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21v14 -And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Can you see that? The names of the twelve apostles of the lamb are the foundations of the walls (boundaries) of the New Jerusalem.

It implies that the teachings of the apostles are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. No new doctrine or books of doctrines can be called scripture outside and after what was taught by word or by epistle of the apostles of the lamb -the last of which was John the beloved in 100AD.

That was why the early church was founded on the doctrines of the apostles.

Acts 2v42 - And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Just as Jesus also commanded;

Matthew 28v20 - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you (the apostles): and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So new doctrines and "church traditions" that came after the demise of the last apostle in 100AD, or that came before 100AD but were not taught in word or epistle by the apostles should not be considered scripture by any true believer.

And purgatory is one of such heresis.

The names of the apostles of the lamb are the foundations of the walls of the new Jersualem. The teachings of the apostles are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. Teaching doctrines and traditions they didn't teach is tantamount to setting new boundaries and walls for the church instead of building on what they taught.

When Jesus told His diciples that He has many more things to teach them but that after the Holy Spirit comes He will guide them into all truth. Those many things were later revealed to the apostles and they wrote them down in their epistles. It doesn't include new books and new doctrines that came into the church after th apostles had died and gone.

Purgatory is not a doctrine or tradition that was handed down by the apostles of the lamb, either by word or epistle. It is a false doctrine. Stick to what can be defended with books considered scripture, not post-apostolic age catholic books.

Shalom!

joey150:
so you just skipped the maccabees?

I didn't skip it, I ignored it.

Did Jesus, or any of the old testament prophets, or any of the new testament apostles mention any verse in the maccabees or even quote from it in defence of any doctrine?

So on what basis am I to accept the book as a pillar of truth or an inspired book by the Spirit of God, if it was not referenced by any prophet or apostle in any book or epistle? NONE!

joey150:
plus so what you are saying is at the judgement seat of christ our works will be tested with fire? so literally christ seat in heaven? or did you have any other meaning in mind?

It is not what I am saying, it is what the bible said.

1Cor 3v13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And to the other question. Bodily, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, but like the Father, He too is omnipresent, so He can be at His judgment seat and at the right hand of the Father at the same time.

But wherever His judgment seat is located, scripture made no mention of purgatory in that regard. And to do so would be to go above what is written -the very foundation of many heresis in the church today.

joey150:
my point about lazarus and the likes was trying to show you that the dead could still be prayed for.

Commanding the dead to come back to life is not praying for the dead. And even if you do pray for the dead, how is that prove they are therefore in purgatory and not sheol or heaven?

You're really grasping at straws here, using every scripture that talks about the afterlife as proof of purgatory.

joey150:
plus, even the apostles acknowledged that all christ teachings and works could never have all been recorded in the bible.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

even Jesus made it clear to the disciples that there were so many other things he would like to say to them which he did not.
John: 16. 12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

another one Philippians: 4. 9. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

and yet.
2 John: 1. 12. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

this suffices to say that the bible cannot contain every detail.so dont get me started on the it must be in the scripture talk. so bible alone christians..thrill me.

the catholic church contains the apostolic lineage starting from saint peter who was the first custodian of the written and UNWRITTEN truths. it is common to seek truth and faith from men who received it from Jesus himself.
that is still not to say because purgatory is not in the defined in the bible verbatim that it does not exist.

finally.. I'll end with 2 Thessalonians: 2. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.. take note of TRADITIONS, WORD OR EPISTLE.

PLEASE LET NOBODY MENTION IT MUST BE IN THE SCRIPTURE. PURE IGNORANCE.

Brother, the apostolic age ended in 100AD after the demise of the last apostle -John the beloved. And after that Jesus Himself said;

Rev 22v18 -For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The last book of the last apostle is what canonized the written word of God and ended what can be considered scripture.

Any other book that was written after 100AD or that was written before 100AD but was not referenced by Jesus, the prophets or the apostles cannot be considered as scriptures.

So all those your catholic books that teach things the apostles didn't teach, things you can't clearly back up with biblical verses are heresis. They are "prophecies" of private interpretation. And you would do well to discard them.

The doctrines of the apostles, received directly from Jesus and through the Spirit, are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. And christians are to stick to ONLY that.

Shalom!

joey150:
Anyway where was Lazarus for 3days? if after death is judgement as you said?

Until Jesus Christ died and rose, no one was righteous enough for paradise or eternal life.

John 3v13 - And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So before Christ death and resurrection, everyone who died went to sheol. Even Samuel;

1Samuel 28v14 -And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that IT WAS SAMUEL, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And David;

Acts 2v34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

That was also where Abraham and Lazarus were in the story of Jesus, the comfort side of sheol (also called Abraham's bosom) while the rich man was in the torment side.

So since the Lazarus of John 11 died before Christ death, he obviously was in Abraham's bosom, the comfort side of sheol during the three days before he was raised back by Jesus.

joey150:
judgement seat of Christ... well thats a new one.

Well, its a new one to you; not to the scriptures. The doctrine of the judment seat of Christ is a biblically sound doctrine.

2Cor 5v10 - For we must all appear before THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

joey150:
if nothing unclean shall enter heaven, which i suppose you believe.. and if there is actually just heaven and hell...hmmm what are the odds of finding perfectly unblemished at the time of their death??

You were so quick to reply you didn't see that I explained this question with the scripture.

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

At the judgment seat of Christ, our works shall be tested by fire. And believers with wood, hay and stubble (works of the flesh) will suffer loss, but they themselves would be saved; yet so as by fire.

What this implies is that believers whose spirits have been saved and regenerated through faith in Christ but who did not have their souls reformed by the word of God through fellowship with the Spirit of God, but continued walking in the lust of the flesh, would have their souls reformed as by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.

joey150:
anyway read 2maccabees 12:45-46.
or read 1corinthians 15:29 where saint Paul tells us people baptize for the dead.

oh even Jesus prayed for a dead man in John11:42
ohh what about 1john 5:16.

How does the practise of the Corinthian church of being baptized for the dead become proof of purgatory to you?

Believers were baptized immediately after conversion in the early church. So loved ones that were baptised for were loved ones who died before Jesus came.

The early church believed that Jesus went to preach to spirits in sheol during the three days of his death, that is, those who died before the gospel came.

This can only be the dead loved ones that the Corinthian church formed a doctrine of being baptized for, since they only got to hear the gospel after death. And there was no where it was said that any other church practised it or that believers should emulate the practise, even though Paul didn't exactly rebuke the Corinthians for it.

And how does the raising of Lazarus from the death also proof purgatory? Can the dead not be raised from sheol? All the souls in torment in sheol now will still be raised to life at the end of the millenial reign.

So raising the dead does not prove the existence of purgatory.

joey150:
fact that there is no outright bible scripture that actually says yes there is purgatory.. evidences in the same bible point to a place where sin can be attoned for even after death.

Show me a place where the bible said there is another place where sins can be attoned for even after death?

What Jesus said is that those who reject the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. "Aion" translated "world" in that verse means age. That's why the devil is called the god of this "aion" (age not world).

The devil is not the god of this world. The earth is the Lord and the fulness thereof. What the devil is the god of is this age. "Aion" means age. Jesus said those who reject the Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. Not purgatory.

joey150:
and overtime,after the age of the bible. saints and religious overtime have confirmed the existence. but if i bring that to the fold it would sound like a fairytale. . which is the opposite of my objective..do read those and tell me what you think of them.
cheers!

You're right, it would sound like fairytale to me. Because we christians establish doctrine with scripture, not with the supposed visions and dreams of people, no matter who they are.

Whatever cannot be clearly backed up with the scriptures is of private interpretation not Holy spirit revelation.

2Peter 1v20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Shalom!

joey150:
Jesus himself was well aware when he said in Matthew 12:31-32 "niether in this world nor the NEXT" meaning there is actually somewhere else apart from this world where sins can be attoned for.

Your interpretation of this verse is not correct.

Matthew 12v32 -And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME.

The word "world" there is the greek "aion" which means "age". What the verse means is "in this age or in the age to come". It doesn't mean another place other than this world. It is still this world, but the age to come -the millenial reign. The "NEXT" there is not purgatory but the millenial.

What Jesus meant is that those who reject the Spirit of God in this age and refuse to believe in Jesus (which is the sin against the Holy Spirit), would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come -the millenial (some unbelievers would still be alive in the millenial reign).

Now, that being said, scripture also says;

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

At the judgment seat of Christ, our works shall be tested by fire. And believers with wood, hay and stubble (works of the flesh) will suffer loss, but they themselves would be saved; yet so as by fire.

What this implies (I stand to be corrected) is that believers whose spirits have been saved and regenerated through faith in Christ but who did not have their souls reformed by the word of God through fellowship with the Spirit of God, but continued walking in the lust of the flesh, would have their souls reformed as by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.

Carnality will not be allowed in heaven, even though it will not cost us our salvation or eternal life.

Even so, the judgment seat of Christ is not purgatory. Jesus didn't preach purgatory and the apostles didn't either. And if we christians are going to keep ourselves within the revealed truth of God's word and refuse to go above what is written, we will not preach purgatory either.

Believers go to be with the Lord when they die.

2Cor 5v8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

Philippians 1v23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better:

The only thing between the death of a believer and heaven is the judgment seat of Christ -not purgatory.

Hebrews 9v27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2Cor 5v8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You see? After the death of a believer, it is the judgment (seat of Christ), then heaven -not purgatory. Let's not go above what is written.

Shalom

5solas:
How you can believe this, especially the last paragraph and still hold that salvation is not of works, beats my imagination.

If what I wrote beats your imagination, then ask the Holy Spirit to enlarge your imagination. Because I said nothing that I didn't back up with clear, self-explanatory scriptures.

We are not saved by works, but we are saved unto good works.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And this;

Titus 3v8 -This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.

We are not saved by works but we are saved unto good works. If a christian does not move on to do good works consistent with Christlikeness after salvation, he will not lose his salvation, but he will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

1Cor 3v15 If any man's work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Every sin is not unto spiritual death (except unbelief); but every sin is unto demotion. Carnality in the life a christian will affect his glorification in the age to come and his greatness in the kingdom of God.

Unchristlikeness is not without cost in this age and in the age to come. Carnal works not repented of will make us suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ, even though it won't cost us eternal life. The scriptures are clear on that.

Rev 3v11 -Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

What you do or don't do can demote you in the kingdom of God and make you lose your crown. Works of the flesh in the life of a believer have consequences in the age to come.

Stop debunking things with word of mouth. Proof things with the scripture. Show me where it is stated either directly or indirectly in the bible that sins have automatic forgiveness whether they are repented of or not. Or that carnality and unchristlikeness will not cost us at the judgment seat of Christ just because we are born again.

Shalom.

promise101:
Okay, let's look into what you just said.

You have agreed that, though the person's work was burnt, HE CAN NEVER MISS HEAVEN(eternal life- a gift), rather he will suffer loss of his REWARD(crown of life).
If so, you are right!

And remember, eternal life is not a reward but a GIFT of God
Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus christ our lord"

. A gift is of grace and not of works, which you can NEVER merit, but reward is of works, and they are things you can merit, by labouring towards it.

For you to understand the forgiveness of a believer, you have to understand the REALITY that happened at the cross.

Do not judge the cross with what you think, rather judge it with the scriptures. Take it the way the bible talked about it.

Exactly the point! Is it not the scriptures I have been using since? Infact, it is those who say sins we don't repent of are automatically forgive that have no scriptures to clearly defend that ascertion, just implied assumptions.

I have been showing you clearly in the scriptures many verses where Jesus Christ was warning believers of what will happen, if they do not repent of their sins.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

Rev 2v16 - REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.

Doesn't all these verses prove to you that there is no automatic forgiveness for sins if we do not repent of them? And that there are consequences for them?

Or show me where scriptures said or even implied that sin in the life of a christian has no consequence in this life or in the age to come, or that they are automatically forgiven, whether they repent of them or not because of the cross.

The bible says some believers will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

1Cor 3v15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What does loss mean? Loss means something you had or that was yours will be taken away. Meaning that what we do or don't do can cause us to lose things and be demoted in the kingdom of God at the judgment.

That's why Jesus warned;

Rev 3v11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

You can lose your crown by reason of what you do or don't do.

And what are the works that will burn and make a christian suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ?

Scripture calls them "Wood, hay and stubble"

1Cor 3v12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh.

2Timothy 2v19 -Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 -But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21  If a man therefore purge himself from these (iniquities), he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So wood represents a person or works done by a person that does not purge himself of iniquities. Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh.

These things will cause a christian to suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ and will result in demotion in the kingdom of God.

There is no automatic forgiveness for sins believers don't repent of. And there are consequences for them in this age and the next.

I am not lifting this points off the back of my head. I have been showing them to you with clear and self-explained scriptures. You will need to ignore a lot of scriptures and blindside a lot of verses to imply otherwise that unrepented sins have automatic forgiveness.

We can't suffer loss for a sin that has been automatically forgiven because of the cross. If we suffer loss because of what we did or didn't do, then it means that thing was not automatically forgiven

Shalom

promise101:
While you are too blinded to believe this truth of grace, let me point this out.

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall BE BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

Think about this verse and tell me what you think, before I can relate with you the relevance of the gospel of grace.

You mean that part you put in Capital letters?

It means he won't go to hell or the lake of fire but he will suffer loss of reward at the judgment seat of Christ.

The only sin unto spiritual death is unbelief and departure from the faith. Even so, every sin is unto demotion even if not unto death.

So this idea that sins are automatically forgiven and have no consequence is heresis. Every unrepented sin in the life of a believer has consequence in this age and will cause loss at the judgment seat of Christ -but only the sin of unbelief is unto death.

Shalom

DivineSpp:
@ayoku77, Few points to note, the judgement of sinners is different from that of believers.

Sinners shall be judged unto eternal condemnation (damnation and destruction).

...because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead. - Acts 17:31 (MKJV)
But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. - 2 Peter 3:7 (MKJV)

The believer, through his good works (not his sins), shall be judged unto eternal reward.

Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me. - Matthew 25:34-40 (MKJV)

[b]So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
...each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.

If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. - 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-14 (MKJV)

...knowing that from the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance. For you serve the Lord Christ. - Colossians 3:24 (MKJV)
Now there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that Day; and not to me only, but also to all those who love His appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8 (MKJV)

And the nations were full of wrath, and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.
- Revelation 11:18 (MKJV)[/b]

Thank you.
You're blessed

Christians will be rewarding for their Christlikeness (works done in the Spirit); and they will suffer loss for their unChristlikeness (works of the flesh or works done in the flesh)

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Can you see that? Its not just good works that would be rewarded for christians, carnal works will also result in loss for them.

Then look at more scriptures that show the consequences of unrepented sins in the life of a christian.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

Rev 2v16 - REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.

Jesus Himself was the one talking in all these verses by the way, and He was talking to christians -believers. And He makes clear that there is judgment and no automatic forgiveness for sins not repented of.

All these scriptures and the one in 1Cor 3 show that sin and works of the flesh in the life of believers have consequences in this age and will result in loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

The idea that only the good works of christians will be rewarded, while their carnal works are automatically forgiven and have no consequence in this age and in the next is biblically unfounded and many scriptures disprove it.

Shalom

naijamakossa:
my fellow nairaland Christain peace be with you.
I have this feelings when ever I read this part of the bible Mathew chapter 6 vs 7 I usually feel guilty not doing the Wright thing

Mathew 6 vs 7 and I quote;
and when you pray,do not use vain repetition as the heathen do,for they think that the will be heard for there many words. and vs 8 continue;therefore do not be like them,for your father know the things you have needs of before you ask him.

my question is this,,,must we make same repetition of our problems whiles praying to God everyday or we should just commit it in prayer just once.

what about the part of the bible that say pray without ceasing.

Matthew 6v7 -But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

What Jesus was talking about here is that we christians should not chant our prayers like the heathens do.

Some religions like budhism can chant the same word or phrase many times during their prayers and meditations. And I've listened to muslim prayers where they chant "laila illa la" continuously for long. And there are other religions like that.

Jesus said we should not do that when we pray. That the Father does not hear us because we chant a word or repeat a phrase many times when we pray but because we ask in faith.

Ofcourse, He doesn't mean that we cannot ask the same prayer request again and again whenever we come into God's presence. Persistence and importunity is allowed in prayers, but not repetitive chanting like the heathen.

Jesus Himself prayed the same request a few times when He went into the Father's presence.

Matthew 26v39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt

44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME WORD.

Paul also besought for the same request a few times;

2Cor 12v8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Also, in the parable that Jesus gave to teach us to keep asking until we receive, the widow kept coming to the judge and asking the same thing.

Luke 18v3 -And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.

So persistence is allowed in prayers but not repetitive chant like pagans.

Hope this helps.

Shalom

stephenmorris:
another rubbish ,don't you read before commenting,didn't your saviour also go to hell as claimed by your pastors

Yes, He did. And what about that? Do you have a question?

Matthew 25v41 -Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:

Can you see? Hell was never made for man; hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. But those who follow him will end up where he is headed.

If you tell your friend or loved one, don't road-trip with that guy, he is going to drive his car down a cliff, if you follow him that will be your fate; are you threatening your friend or telling him the truth? Is that threat or truth?

The devil is the first sinner, he is the first person to use his freewill to turn his back on God and rebel against Him. To turn your back on God is to road-trip with the devil.

If God tells you that if you turn your back on His love and His salvation, then you're road-tripping with the devil and will end up where he is headed -which is hell. How is that emotional blackmail? It is only truth!

Hell was not made for man, it was made for Lucifer and his angels. But those who follow him will end up where he is headed. And making that clear to people is not emotional blackmail or threat, but truth.

Telling people where the bus they're boarding is headed is not blackmail and telling people the destination of the person they're road-tripping with is not threat. It is truth in love. I would want to know.

Shalom

Demmzy15:
No one would ever admit to watching porn, so you lamenting doesn't change anything. For you to use a terminology they use speaks a lot about you. You being an adult doesn't strengthen your position, the final note is you watch pornography.... Shikena, I'm happy you've opened yourself for the world to see!

Tranny (slang) :

Tranny is a slang term used chiefly to describe people who are transgender, transsexual, wearing drag, transvestites, or cross-dressers. The term is considered a slur by some transgender activists, such as Roz Kaveney. [1] The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) state that the term is "usually considered offensive and/or defamatory" by members of the transgender community.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranny_(slang)

Tranny is a slang used to describe transgender, albeit offensive. Just as "nigger" is to a black american.

Your attempt to make it a word peculiar to pornography is lame.

And besides if someone picks a word, slang or gesture from a forum as public as facebook or nairaland, and uses it. How does that define the person or prove the person belongs to a group.

If I gesture my hand with a peace sign in a photo because I saw it in a pic on fb, you now say it is because I belong to illuminati. Wouldn't that be ridiculous of you.

Argue intelligently. Tranny is to transgenders what nigger is to black americans. And people use it when they want to be offensive. It doesn't mean you belong to klu klux klan or you watch porn.

Don't argue or draw conclusions like a 15 year old. You want to play the ridicule factor card, but the joke of ignorance is on you.

Shalom

analice107:
Yes brother.

Your last point is where most Christians miss it. Am guilty here. We beg too much. How do u beg your father for what you know he has said you can take?

This dispensation is the dispensation of power. Like Peter we ought to call for what has already be given. Look at Jesus, he never prayed beggerly prayer. He gave thanks and called forth. Releasing the power is what Christians need to know how to do now.

True!

asalimpo:
That said, christians (NT believers) have a better covenant. They can bind and loose.
They can decree.
They can speak to their mountain. etc
Also they have the person of the Holy Spirit , indwelling them, so not all answers need to come from heaven. infact, they dont need to pray about everything.
When peter was ministering to the leper at the beautiful gate, he didnt pray- He just released the power he had inside and the man was healed.

Valid point!

Jozzy4:
This is what you ought to have asked instead of making an assumption of nowhere sugested or answering what you dont understand

New American Standard Bible
He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, " An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe. " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. : 1samuel 28:14

The phrase "OLD man " suggested what ? I hope you won't tell me spirits are old men .



Secondly :

"
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up HIS EYES and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." Luke 16:23

Note: his Eyes, the rich man eye

Furthermore

"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’" luke 16:24

Note: he begs for water , tell me why a spirit needs water in d first place ? Or to cool his tongue ? Is a tongue not full flesh ?

Address this pls

What made you draw the assumption that only fleshy human bodies have eyes, hands, beards and can thirst? Or that spiritual bodies cannot have them?

God is a spirit;

John 4v24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yet God who is a spirit has eyes:

2Chr 16v9 - For THE EYES OF THE LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

God has hands:

Psalm 118v15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD doeth valiantly. 16 THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD is exalted: THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD doeth valiantly.

God even has fingers:

Exodus 8v19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is THE FINGER OF GOD: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened,

Luke 11v20 - But if I with THE FINGER OF GOD cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

God has ears:

Isaiah 59v1 -Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither HIS EAR heavy, that it cannot hear:

God wears a garment and has hair on his head:

Daniel 7v9 -I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose GARMENT was white as snow, and THE HAIR OF HIS HEAD like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

God has foot:

Psalm 99v5 Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship at his FOOTSTOOL; for he is holy.

Isaiah 66v1 -Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my FOOTSTOOL: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

God has a mouth:

Isaiah 40v5 -And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

I can go on and one and show other scriptures that shows that God can smell, and he has emotions.

So if God who is a spirit has eyes, ears, mouth, hands, feet, white hair and wears a garment, what gives you the assumption that because Samuel was wrapped in a robe or looked old with white hair, or that the rich man in hell thirsted and had tongue and eyes, they therefore cannot be spirits?

You drew your own unscriptural conclusion that only flesh has body parts, and that is not true. There are spiritual bodies, and they have body parts too.

1Cor 15v44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.

Even angels that are spirits have spiritual bodies parts too. They are described with hands and legs.

Rev10v2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set HIS RIGHT FOOT upon the sea, and HIS LEFT FOOT on the earth,

5 -And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up HIS HAND to heaven,

And also, souls can hunger and thirst.

Psalm 42v1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Psalm 143v6 I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah.

Lamentation 1v11 All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile.

19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

Lamentation 2v19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the soul of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

Souls can hunger and thirst. And Jesus proved souls still thirst in hell.

So yes, those were the spirits of Samuel and the rich man. The body parts they were described as having are not peculiar to fleshy body parts, spiritual body parts have them too. God and angels, who are spirits, are described as having those parts too.

Shalom

dolphinheart:
good. we will come back to look deeper into this later.
But pls can you explain these two verse and link them to your views that spirits go to hell.

psalms 146:4
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

eccl 12 :7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

You can also add this or we will add it into the discussion later: do animals also have souls and spirits? and where do they go to when they die.
sorry for digressing o.

You didn't really digress. These are inclusive points in what we've been discussing.

Psalm 146v4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

This verse is straight forward. It said when the spirit of a man leaves, he returns to the earth.

It is clear from the context of this verse that the "he" that "returneth to his earth" is the body of the man that was from the dust, not the man's soul or spirit.

These verses establish that claim;

Eccl 12v7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And these;

Genesis 3v19 -In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So the part of man that returns to dust or to the earth is the part of man that was taken from dust -his human body.

So the verse actually interpretes;

Psalm 146v4 - His breath (or spirit) goeth forth (leaves), he (the body) returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. - (words in bracket mine)

Now, as to the explanation of the other verse;

Eccl 12v7 -Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That is very true. After death, every spirit returns to God who gave it -for judgment. Now, whether they will be sent to heaven or be cast intto hell after judgment is another issue.

Scriptures says;

Hebrews 9v27 -And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death, the next thing is judgment. When someone dies, his spirit returns to God for judgment; they will be judged relative to their right-standing with God.

It is obviously clear that some are sent to hell after judgment, just as the story of the rich man and Lazarus made very clear.

The rich man's soul ended up in hell.

Luke 16v22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; AND IN HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

So, that every spirit returns to God after death for judgment is true (according to Eccl 12v7 and Hebrews 9v27); and that some souls are sent into hell after judgment is also true (according to Luke 16v23).

The word of God is one, they don't contradict eachother. When two scriptures seem contradictory, it is because we are yet to find the adjoining scripture that reconciles the two verse.

(Note: Some people always argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, so it should not be understood literally but symbolically.

That's wrong, it is not a parable. Jesus is never precise about the information in His parables as to specifically give the name of the individual..

Luke 16v20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,

Jesus gave the name because there was truly such a person. It was a true story.

And even if we are to give the argument the benefit of the doubt and say the story is a parable; what then is a parable?

A parable is the use of practical facts of life to explains spiritual and kingdom truths. This means then that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a fact of like. That souls stay alive, conscious and animate after death is a fact of life; and that some souls go to hell after death is a fact of life.

So however we approach the story, whether as a true story or as a parable, it means the story must be understood literally.)

Shalom

dolphinheart:
there are two issues I have with your answer, the scriptures you mentioned never said the soul will do this or that, the word "soul" is not even mentioned there, so you view that those verses is talking about the soul is based on assumptions right! If not, then you need to still provide scriptures that support where the soul goes to.

2. you left out the other thing that you say will depart, which is the spirit. you did not say anything about the spirit.
The verses you quoted can be applied to the spirit, since you say it will depart too. but that will leave the soul departure unanswered . hope you can now see the problem.

I await your response.

Haba, the scriptures are self-explanatory na.

2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be present with the Lord.

When he says "to be absent from the body", which part of him gets absent from the body at death to be present with the Lord? His ears and nose? Ofcourse it is his soul and spirit.

We all know man is spirit, soul and body.

1Thess 5v23 -...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also said it that it is only the body that dies or can be killed by man, and that the soul stays alive and can only be sent to the lake of fire.

Matthew 10v28 -And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Its clear the soul stays alive even after the body is killed, so when Paul talks about departing from the body after death, it can only be the soul -the part of man that stays alive after the body is killed.

And this verse confirms it fully that it is the soul that indeed departs from the body after death.

1Kings 17v21 -And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this CHILD'S SOUL come into him again.

22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and THE SOUL OF THE CHILD came into him again, and he revived.

Can you see? The boy's soul departed from his body after death. Is this proof enough now?

And for your other question. Soul and Spirit, most times are used interchangeably in the new testament, because they never get separated even after the death of the body. They are inseparable even though the two are distinct.

The spirit controls the life of the person and the soul controls the consciousness of the person. And where one is the other is, even after death.

It was both the soul and spirit of Jesus that went to sheol after He died on the cross.

Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1Peter 3v18 -18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT: 19 BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Both His soul and spirit departed into sheol after He died on the cross until His resurrection.

The spirit and the soul are distinct, but they depart the body together after death to heaven or hell.

All these verses are very self-explanatory. If they look confusing, its because you want them to mean something else other than the obvious.

Shalom!

dolphinheart:
my own question is, where do they depart to when man dies.(pls include scripture)

If they are born again they go to be with the Lord.

According to this scripture;

Philippians 1v23 -For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

And this;

2Cor 5v6 -Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So souls of believers go to be with the Lord in heaven when they depart the body in death. And that of sinners go to hell.

Shalom

Jozzy4:
I need an answer

I recently have a discussion with a man who claim to have bible knowledge but I discovered he can't think properly .

It happened that we discuss the subject of Resurrection in which I question the purpose of a ressurection if people go to heaven or hell when they die . but instead of answering my question , he called me an atheist .

The dead end came when he told me resurrection is the bringing back to live of the individuals dead human Flesh . not the person himself

Thus I questioned this :

- how could Samuel appear to Saul as an old man , from where did he get the flesh of an old man since the resurrection hasn't occur ? (He cited this for me earlier as a prove of afterlife ) but at that point he couldn't answer ... I Need an answer if u can help him


- from where did the rich man in Luke 16 get his Flesh since the Resurrection is yet to occur ? (He told me this is a true life story , thus i need an answer to this !!!! cos the man kept labelling me atheist rather than addressing my questions

Can u answer me ?

Your question is what is wrong. You made an unscriptural assumption and you're asking questions based on your wrong aaumption.

You said where did Samuel and the Rich man get their flesh from if resurrection had not occured.

Where is it in those passages that claims or suggests that Samuel and the rich man still had flesh after they died? Nowhere in those passages suggested so.

When people die, their bodies decay and becomes soil again, while their souls and spirits depart.

After Samuel and the rich man died they became only spirits with spirit bodies. Spirits don't have flesh or blood or bones. Spirit bodies are like that of angels.

1Cor 15v44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Luke 24v39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Shalom

dazzlingd:
Welcome to Africa, the land of religion where university graduates still hold the belief that the earth is 6000 years old.
If we tell them to study science, they won't listen....
if the whites did not explore science and space, I wonder how you would ve had Internet to post this...
"while we look up to pray, the whites were doing space explorations"
6000 years ko, 6000 hours ni...go and study, read about your solar system, galaxy and universe
let there be light and there was light, that sun is over billions of years old

The study of galaxies, solar systems and planets is a personal hubby of mine. I read extensively and watch online documentaries about the universe, black holes, dark matter, dark energy etc.

I'm a science research lover and I'm also a believer in Christ. I don't know why people have this delusion that christianity is antiscience.

God is the ultimate scientist, and science is the study of God's physical creation and the laws He ordained to order His physical creation. That's why I love science.

But when it comes to the age of things, the true age of things is relative to when they were created by God, not by how they look or by how long you think it should take them to have looked this way.

When God created Adam, He created him as a full grown man, not as a baby. So if you were to look at Adam then, you would say you're looking at a 30year old man, not knowing you're looking at only a day old man.

So when Adam looked 31years old, he was only one year and a day old by creation.

Today, some scientists that don't believe in creation account look at stars and planetary bodies and claim they are billions of years old, because according to them that's how long it should take for a sun to become a white dwarf, or pulser etc.

God can make what He created look any age at the point of creation, like He made Adam look 30years at just a day old.

God created time and it is subject to Him. So when you look up at the universe and everything in it, you must learn to say, "Let God be true". Because the true age of a thing is based on when they were created by God, not by how they look or by how long you think it should have taken it to look this way.

Shalom

oyeludef:
You will av to b patient with me o. Make u never tire according to strongs dictionary, shamayim means both heaven, heavens, and heaven d abpde of God

That's because hebrew is an ambiguous language. The same word can mean different things.

The word "malak" can also mean angel or messenger. So when you see malak in scripture, you will have to see the context to determine if the malak is angel, or messenger. Haggai was called, the Lord's malak (Haggai 1v13); that "malak" cannot mean angel.

So if shamayin in Genesis 1v1 can mean universe or heavenly realms or paradise. Then you have to look at the verse to check which one it is referring to in that context.

That was why I gave you the verse that shows that angels were with God singing and shouting for joy when He laid the foundations of the earth and fastened it to corner-stones (Job 38v4-7).

If angels were with God at the creation of the earth, that should therefore tell you that by Genesis 1v1; paradise, the spiritual heavenly realms and angels were already in existence then. Proving that their own beginning was well before the beginning of Genesis 1v1.

So the shamayin created in Genesis 1v1 can only be the universe and the earth. The universe and the earth was the shamayin created in six days (Exodus 20v11). Because angels, paradise, and the heavenly realms where already there when God was laying the foundations of the earth.

That's how you use scripture to explain scripture.

Do you get it now?

Shalom

oyeludef:
You talked about the 1st.2nf and 3rd heavens righ?
If it was only d third Heaven dat was created in gen1:1, how come d Bible said heavens(plural) don't forget d Bible said in d beginning. If truely 1st and secomd heavens existed before ven1:1, how come d Bible said in d beginning?

The hebrew is not plural, the hebrew says "Shamayin" which is heaven not heavens.

Exodus 20v11 - For in six days the Lord made HEAVEN (shamayin) and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:

So it was heaven and earth that God made in six days. That is the universe and the earth.

And when scripture uses the word "beginning", which beginning exactly? Is it the beginning of paradise and the spiritual realm, or the beginning of the universe and the earth, or the beginning of man or the beginning of the new creation?

All created things have a beginning but they don't have the same beginning relative to time. So the word "beginning" must be understood in the context of what is being talked about.

This verse should answer your question about that.

Job 38v4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Can you see these verses?

This was God Himself talking to Job. And it says when God laid the foundations of the earth, Angels sang together and shouted for joy.

If angels were there shouting for joy when God made the earth, it means angels and the spiritual realm were already in existence at the creation of the universe and the earth.

Proofing that the "In the beginning" of Genesis 1v1 was referring only to the universe and the earth, not paradise and the spiritual realm. Paradise, the spiritual heavenly realms and angels were already in existence before Genesis 1v1.

Please does this answer your question? Because I'm getting tired.

Shalom

oyeludef:
I know you will contradict yourself. But u said d heavens(not d abode of God) were created together with the earth according to gen1:1. So if Satan was cast into one of the two remaining heavens, the d earth too must av been in existence cos God created d heavens and d earth.
The third Heaven is actually the abode of God

You love argument.

This is it.

We have paradise, also called the third heaven, or the heaven of heavens. This is the abode of God.

We have the heavenly places. These are spiritual realms outside paradise but also spiritual. They are the abode of the principalities and powers.

Then we have the heavens. This is space or the universe. This is the abode of the stars and galaxies. It was created together along with the earth. And filled up in six days

Paradise and the heavenly places, were created aeons before the universe and the earth. The bible gave us no information about how long ago they were created before the heavens (universe) and the earth.

Paradise and the heavenly spiritual realms pre-existed Genesis 1v1, when God created the universe and the earth. The account of Genesis 1v1 is the account of the creation of the universe and the earth and everything in them -not paradise and the spiritual heavenly places.

You want to lump together paradise, heavenly places and universe to mean the same heaven that were created same time. That is wrong.

Paradise and the spiritual heavenly realm pre-existed Genesis 1v1. The heavens that was created in Genesis 1v1 along with the earth is space and the universe. That was the heavens God filled with stars on day three.

I don't think I can simplify it more than this. Unless you just love to disagree.

Shalom

oyeludef:
so you agree that d devil and hus angels fell b4 adam? So where did dey fall to if there was no earth den? If dey were cast out of heaven, where did dey fall to?

They fell into heavenly places. Realms of heaven out of paradise (the third heaven)

Its clear from scripture that there are different layers of heaven. Paul spoke of being caught up to the "third heaven" which actually is paradise.

2Cor 12v2 -I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN.

4  How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the third heaven. Now, if there is a third heaven (paradise), it means there would therefore be a first and second heaven. That is, levels of heaven, that are not paradise and at the same time not earth or the universe.

So if Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of paradise, they were cast down to these heavenly places. It doesn't mean that they could only have been cast down to earth.

See this;

Ephesians 6v12 -For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS.

So there are other heavenly places or realms outside the third heaven (paradise) and outside the heavens (universe) and the earth that houses principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness.

That is where they were cast to -heavenly places, that is, realms of heaven out of paradise (the third heaven).

Some christians say the first heaven is the universe (the abode of the stars and the galaxies). The second heaven is the heavenly places (the abode of principalities and powers). And the third heaven is paradise; (the abode of God).

While some argue that the three heavens are even completely separate from the heavens of the universe. I somewhat agree with this.

But my point is, earth is not the only place that Satan and his angels could have fallen to when they were cast out of paradise. There are other spiritual heavenly realms and places outside paradise that pre-existed the heavens (universe) and the earth.

Shalom

oyeludef:
in d book of ezekiel, the Bible says
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:13-14 KJV
If satan was in eden b4 he fell, where is eden located? Heaven or earth

Look at this verse

Ezekiel 31v18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.

This is how the NIV puts it;

Ezekiel 31v18 -"Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. "'This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign LORD."

This is a parable God put out against Pharaoh the king of Egypt (who is a type of the adversary -Satan), that he would be cast to earth below with the trees of Eden.

So its obvious Eden was either brought down to earth from above, meaning it was in heaven before. Or that the garden of Eden on earth was transplanted out of the trees of the Eden in Heaven.

Which can only mean that there was (or there still is) a heavenly Eden. Which I believe was the Eden Lucifer had walked in when He was still the anointed cherub that covereth.

When Lucifer walked in the earthly Eden in Genesis three, He was already fallen then, he had become Satan.

Shalom

oyeludef:
Alright so wat period did d fall of lucifer occur ad we know he was already fallen wen he tempted man in d garden? Wen was hell created cos we know it was created for the devil and his angels? If all this happened within a short time frame as y supposed, wen did all d drama in d heavenlies occur and d devil fall with those angels?

You're confusing "the heavens" to mean paradise (the spiritual abode of God). The heavens refer to space (the physical universe) or the abode of the stars and the galaxies.

That is different from paradise. We have no idea how long heaven (paradise), the spiritual realm of God and all the angels were in existence before God created the heavens (universe) and the earth.

So paradise heaven is different from the heavens (universe) and the earth that was made in six days. Before the heavens and the earth were made, Lucifer had already fallen and he was no longer the covering cherub.

Paradise is different from the universe.

Shalom

asalimpo:
Do you have any biblical backing enumerating and computing the 6000 year old earth?
And the bible doesnt clearly flat out say, God created the heaven and earth in the period when he created man. He couldve created heaven and earth, with no man in it. Then recreated the heaven and earth later
to accomodate man.
If so, then the earth would be older than 6000 years.

if Jesus was coming in the 6000th year as you conjecture, then His coming is known,
it is no more suprise. God and Jesus are predictable. They wait for 6 days,years,millenia,
then show up in the 7th year and do their thing.
That goes against the biblical injunction to be ready. And that Jesus knows not the hour or time when He will come.
Again, this kind of conjecture is typical christian tradition. Note, how the millenial reign is tied to rest.
Besides, to make it look plausible, the 6000 year old earth assumption must be made.

I posit that the earth is older than 6000 years.

If a christian soldier is being dragged to a torture chamber in war,
where his fingers will be pulled out, his eyes gouged out, and his toes beaten to pulp with a hammer,
would he be commiting a sin by biting a cyanide pill?

Many people commit suicide out of hopelessness. A a sight of no future.
Yes, they could live but it would be a half life. They'd be living in hell.
In pain and turtore for the rest of their lives. How is such a life, an unlivable toxic existence benefitting anyone? It is neither giving God glory or even having any sign of respite for the live-r.
Many others are simply waiting to die. They've resigned from life.
Just waiting their time. How are they different from those who pull the plug on themselves?

Here are some reasons why people might take their life.
In retirement, all your earnings and what you've worked for have been wiped out.
Maybe a faulty investment or a scam.
You're old. You cant afford to pay for bills, health care, etc.
Who'll give you a job?
You know "God will make a way" is empty talk.
Yes, God can rain mannah from heaven, but even your church folks know that its over for you.
Your friends , children relations withdraw , leaving you to stew.
The grief alone and pain and hopelessness will drive one to contemplate suicide.

You've lost limbs during an accident.
You're fiance /fiancee leaves you cuz you look like a monster.
You are dependent on people for your sustenance-going to the bathroom, toilet,bathing etc
You will be a beggar all your life. Your employers have let you go.
You see your family treat you like dirt, after a while.
What stops such a one from ending it all- is that thing he is living really life?
Tell, me God will make his limbs grow back and his eyes pop out and he'll be back to living whole again.
Reassure him with that.


Your bf/gf that you sacrificed so much to help . believing that you'll live together as spouse one day.
On making it, he /she abandons you for some one else.
You see their photo on facebook etc.
The pain is stabbing.
Ok- you can preach on this, there's hope . You'll find another. But the pain is real and hurting.
some will yield to it.

You worked in a prestigious company. Your post was high and lofty.
One day you became framed for a thing you didnt do.
You lost your job. You're covered in shame. The neighbuors boo you.
You have to drive a cab around the city , doing menial work.
The pain - the shame - oooh. Ok this one well, can be recovered from.

They're some problems people can't recover from. The pain and despair is too ernomous.

Its obvious from the way you're talking that you don't believe in the word of God and have faith in His promises

Because you're trying so hard to rationalize suicide and justify giving up on life or that some situations can truly be hopeless and suicide is the only way out.

So what do you make of all these promises of God?

1Cor 10v13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 2v18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Isaiah 43v2 -2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

I can go on and on and show you scriptures that show that God can deliver us from challenges or even give us grace to go through them in His power, such that suicide should never be an option.

The believers under the early church suffered more than those scenarios you painted there. Some were fed to lions, John was thrown inside boiling oil. Mark was tied to a horse and dragged to his death. Stephen was stoned, Peter was crucified upside down.

And grace was sufficient for all of them. The power of Christ was made perfect in their weaknesses. They all overcame by loving not their lives even unto the death. And the same grace is available to us to day to endure to the end.

But its clear from what you said that you don't believe all that. You yourself said "God will make a way is empty talk".

So when God said

Isaiah 43v13 -I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

He was making empty talk? Hmmm.

And as for the 6000 years issue. Look up evidence of a young earth online, or bible history and genealogy, everything is within the 6000 year range. I can't do you homework for you.

And you're right, we don't know the day or the hour Jesus will come. He himself said the days will be shortened for the elect's sake, meaning God has the prerogative to shorten the days of when He will climax this age. But that doesn't mean He will add thousands of years to His timetable.

God is not arbitrary. There is no scriptural proof that the earth is millions or hundreds of thousands years old. According to scripture, the earth is only five days older than man, and mankinds genealogy in scripture dates back just abut 6000years.

Shalom

oyeludef:
God created man without a body d sixth day(gen1:27) but God formed d body of Adam after He rested (gen2:7).
After God formed d body of man, He breathed the breath of life (the spirit of man) into his nostrils and he became a living soul and I also believe that there was a lot of years between gen1:1 and gen1:2but i dont want to derail dis thread else I will av entered into a whole new topic on dat

Yes you're right, God created the male and female human spirit on day six, and then made the (male) human body after that, then later God made the woman.

Male and female human spirit (Ish and Ishah) were made the same day but man and woman (adam and adamah) were not made same day.

But you're wrong, there was no lots of years or even days between Gen 1v1 and Gen 1v2

Gen 1v1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The heavens and earth were made within the same six days that God made everything before He rested.

Exodus 20v11 - FOR IN SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Can you see this?

God did not make the heavens and the earth, then waited years or many days before He made everything in the earth. No!

God made the heavens and the earth and then everything in it together in just six days.

Shalom