₦airaland Forum

daniska3yaro:
Ngiri fururi ya

Is that kanuri?

Good day guys

Many focus mainly on the three main tribes but not on others. As we all know, Kanuris constitute a large amount in the country and their contributions to Nigeria's history is very great. It'll be very fascinating if we could teach ourselves this language, I'm looking forward to learn!

Ngcarslink:
Availability!!!

Do you have Ford Mustang or Chevrolet Camaro? Please how much?

Saladin25:
Nice interview. Shi'a-Sunni rivalry all started because of leadership. All I know is if you follow the principle of Islam and the sunnah of the prophet, then you are a Muslim

Yes this Sunnah includes; respecting the sahabas, not speaking bad the mother of believers, not engaging in takkiyyah.

The truth of the matter is that Muslims can only unite under truth. I cannot unite with someone who curses the Sahabah, curse mother of believers, etc. This is the truth, I cannot unite support Ghulu and oppression!

Jazaka Allaah kayran Ya Akhi

Hahaha, the above posts are very funny!

Salam Aleikom AlBaqir

# Imam Muslim (d. 261 H):

Anas b. Malik: The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from amongst those who kept me company will meet me at the Lake-Fount. I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: ‘O my Lord, my Sahabah! My Sahabah. It will be said to me: ‘You do not know what they INNOVATED after you.’”

Ref: Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Iḥya al-Turath al-‘Arabi) [annotator: Muḥammad Fuad ‘Abd al-Baqi], vol. 4, p. 1800, # 2304(40)

@underlined, this doesn't refer to the whole sahabas as I've clarified in previous post that the Sahabah linguistically refers to those who remained on the path of the Prophet not apostates as in the case of those in Riddah wars or those who joined Musaylamah the false Prophet. We're not talking about the sahabas in a general meaning, just like Quran also refers to Imams in different manner.

# Imam Nisai (d. 303 H):
...He (the Messenger of Allah) went out with the people for the battle of Tabuk. So, Ali said to him, "Let me go out with you". Therefore, he (the Prophet) said, "Do not weep, Ali. Are you not pleased that you are to me of the status of Harun to Musa with the exception that you are not a prophet? You are my Khalifah, that is, over every believer after me."

So after He(Ali) was divinely appointed as the Caliph, when his time to rule came he forgot totally or would you say he was doing takkiyah?!

Ali(ra) said: By Allah, I had no liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it. When the caliphate came to me, I kept the Book of Allah in my view and all that Allah had put therein for us, and all that according to which He has commanded us to take decisions.[sermon 205]

This sermon of Ali(ra) was made after more than 20 years had passed after the death of Prophet(saw) , Even this sermon of Ali(ra) proves that Ali(ra) never considered that he was already appointed as Caliph, instead he said here that, “WHEN CALIPHATE CAME TO ME”  which signifies that he wasn’t the Caliph during that time neither did he wanted to be a Caliph.

It was not said as an address to Ummah or muslims, but it was an address just to Ali(ra). Because prophet(Saw) said “YOU” are to “ME” as haroon to musa, He didn’t say” o believers, Ali is to me as harun to musa”. Or he would have said: “Ali to YOU(muslims) is like Haroon to Bani Israel”, but he didn’t say anything as such.This clearly shows that this wasn’t any kind of declaration before muslims, but it was rather a consolation to Ali(ra) ONLY.

I believe anyone reasonable enough would know that this does not in any way suggest that Ali was made a caliph after the Prophet.

@underlined, please do not distort the hadith. Prophet never said in ALL ASPECTS except Prophethood rather his statement is Comparison in STATUS. Harun was the best believer, most pious and ascetic in entire Musa's Ummah; Harun was the chosen brother to aid and strengthen Musa's mission; Harun was the Wazir of Musa; and being WAZIR of Musa made him natural successor to Musa but unfortunately died before Musa. Then Prophet noticing this "anomaly" declared: And You (Ali) are my Khalifah OVER every believer AFTER ME (min bahdi).

Who's distorting hadith? Did I claim the Prophet said such and such? I only made a comparison that if Ali(ra) is compared to Harun(as) [of course we can't compare him in terms of Prophet hood because Harun was a Prophet during the lifetime of Musa, while Ali(ra) is not], then Abubakar(ra) and Umar(ra) could be compared Ibrahim(as) and Nuh(as), so how's that I'm changing the hadith?!

# If you were to compare Abu Bakr and Umar in all aspects except Nubuwah, does that meant Nabi Ibrahim (as) was also a polytheist before embracing Islam (nauthubillah) as the Sheikhain were?

As you can clearly see from the hadith quoted on how the Prophet compared them to the great Prophets. The Prophet clearly knew the history of the two men when he compared them.

@Abovementioned Ayat Sherif, so does Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan then complied to the Command of Allah by paying allegiance to Ali ibn Abi Talib as his "Rightly Guided Khalifah"? Ali defeated Mu'awiyyah and his Baghi group yet he resurface in causing another fitnah after the demise of Ali - against al-Hassan. Therefore, That Ayat Sherif only imply if the two parties were believers. In this case of Mu'awiyah and Ali, it was a case of Hypocrisy vs Belief.

As I've clearly explained in my last and anybody viewing would know that I'm sincere. I said Muawiyah was wrong, he was haste in his decisions but nevertheless when we look at his intention, he wasn't fighting for power or the caliphate but for the Revenge of his cousin the 3rd Rightly Guided Caliph Uthman(ra).

Muawiyah Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh said:

"Ali is better and more virtuous than me and I differ from him only in the matter of qisaas of Uthmaan (Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh) and if he takes the qisaas of the blood of uthmaan I will be the first of the people of syria to make bayah to him"

[al-Bidayatu wan Nihaayah page 129,259 vol 7]

The man murdered was a Sahaba and the only man to have become the son-in-law of the Prophet (saw) twice. If Ali(ra) was the Prophet's (saw) son-in-law and cousin, then Uthman(ra) was his son-in-law twice over. He was no ordinary man you know? But I've started times without number that Muawiyah was wrong, stop complicating issues.

# For sure Mu'awiyah and his Baghi group never did any of these. How could they when the holy Prophet labeled them as "CALLER OF HELL"?! According to Quran a "Caller of hell-Fire" is Kafir.

It's funny on how you declare them Kaffirs when even Imam Ali(ra) never did.

It was narrated that when ʿAlī(ra) heard that two of his companions were openly reviling Muawiyah(ra) and cursing the people of Syria, he sent word to them telling them to stop what they were doing. They came to him and said: O Amīr al-Mu’minīn, are we not in the right and they in the wrong? He said: Yes indeed, by the Rabb of the Kaʿbah. They said: Then why are you stopping us from reviling and cursing them? He said: I do not want you to be people who curse; rather you should say: “0 Allah, protect our blood and theirs, reconcile between us and them. Save them from their misguidance, so that truth will become clear to those who are unaware of it and those who got carried away in misguidance will give up their stubborn ways.
Al-Akhbār al-Ṭiwāl, p. 165, quoted in Taḥqīq Mawāqif al-Ṣaḥābah fī l-Fitnah, 2/232

Qurb Al-Isnad - bn Turayf - Ibn Alwan - Ja'far - Muhammad (Al-Baqir) who said that Ali (peace be upon him) used to say about those who fought him: "Verily, we did not fight them based on Takfeer, nor did we fight them based on their Takfeer on us, rather we believed that we are upon the truth, and they believed they are upon the truth".

(Source: Narrated by Al-Himyariu, Hadith no: 297 and 302 in his book Qurb Al-Isnad, p 45, vol 1. Also in "Al-Shari'ah" by Al-Hurr (Al-'Ameli), part 15, page 80, chapter: The RULING on the trangressors, 26)

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that:

Muawiya (b. Abi Sufyan) commanded Sa'd (ibn Abi Waqqas), and said, "What prevented you from CURSING Abu al-Turab (i.e 'Ali b. Abi Talib)? So, he (Sa'd) replied: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (s) having said about him..."
Ref: {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Fu'ad Abd al-Baqi], vol. 4, p. 1870, #2404(32)}

Yet Mu'awiyah(ra) called Ali(ra) with his most beloved kunya, Sa'd explained all the virtues of Ali(ra) in his front and Mu'awiyah(ra) neither objected not punished Sa'd(ra).

In the Hadith the Arabic word "سب" "Sabb" translated into English would be "cursed / abused" and this is not asking Allah to remove someone from his mercy such as "May Allah curse so and so" or "May Allah remove so and so from his mercy", that would be "لعن" "La'ana" in Arabic and that would be a religious accusation(this was not the case). An example of "sabb" can be "what an ignorant donkey", moreover , there was a case whereby Ali(ra) and Al Abbas(ra) had disagreement:

 Narrated Malik bin Aus An-Nasri: I proceeded till I entered upon `Umar (and while I was sitting there), his gate-keeper Yarfa came to him and said, " `Uthman, `Abdur-Rahman, Az-Zubair and Sa`d ask your permission to come in." `Umar allowed them. So they entered, greeted, and sat down. (After a while the gatekeeper came) and said, "Shall I admit `Ali and `Abbas?'' `Umar allowed them to enter. Al-`Abbas said "O Chief of the believers! Judge between me and the oppressor (`Ali)." Then there was a dispute (regarding the property of Bani Nadir) between them (`Abbas and `Ali).
(Saheeh Bukhaari, Book 56, Hadeeth 326 and See, Hadith No. 326, Vol. 4)

Al Abbas(ra) abused Ali(ra) here because he was annoyed and this happens due to human weakness, you need to look at it from all angles and be rational.

Yazeed ibn Mu'awiyah was a Kafir and first class Jahanam leader.

You're Allaah who's going to judge abi? Better focus on how you're going to be a better Muslim!

If al-Suyuti counted Imam al-Mahdi (as) as the 12th Khalifahs, then your interpretation that "There will be Islamic Izza in the reign of the 12 Khalifahs" hit rock. Apart from the fact that that was not the wording of the Hadith (but your misinterpretation), if your belief system says Mahdi is yet to be born and will only come in the last hour, has Islam collapsed and failed to stand ever since the death of your 11th Khalifa centuries ago till date and will it (Islam) continue (to fail) till Mahdi comes? Kindly answer my questions please and do not run away from it.

The hadith never stated that there would be only 12 leaders, this is something you're missing. There are saheeh hadiths that point out there would be many Caliphs, so just not only 12 leaders, but what you must know is that Islam would be great during their rule... Shikena! You're implying things the hadith never, it said Islam would be izza when 12 caliphs rule, it didn't claim Islam would be humiliated after then or did it?

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."

@bold, thank you sir.

You're always welcome!

@Bold, first, Why are you so particular on a version of "Hadith of 12 Khalifahs"? I have given you different versions of this hadith yet you were adamant on this particular version with misinterpretation that "true Khalifah must possess military power and rule by kingdom for the preservation of the izza of Islam"?! What kind of interpretation is that?

Is it your interpretation we should accept? So you say the izza meant in the hadith is that Islam would prevail over other religions, so in essence you're saying Islam was in a state of izza during Abubakar(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Mu'awiyah(ra), Yazeed, etc. So if Islam is in state of izza during their time, then why crying and the lamenting about Mu'awiyah(ra) and Yazeed?!

Here are the summary of all the versions of the hadith:

Here are the versions from Jabir Ibn Sumara(ra):

-Simak:
لَا يَزَالُ الْإِسْلَامُ عَزِيزًا إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"Islam shall remain strong until twelve caliphs."

-Ibn abi `Umar from `Abdul-Malik:
لَا يَزَالُ أَمْرُ النَّاسِ مَاضِيًا مَا وَلِيَهُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ رَجُلًا
"The people's affair shall be conducted well as long as they're led by twelve men."

-Ibn Mahdi from `Abdul-Malik:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ صَالِحًا حَتَّى يَكُونَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا
"This matter shall remain good until twelve chiefs (rule)."

-Abu `Abdul-Samad from `Abdul-Malik:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ عَزِيزًا أَوْ قَالَ لَا يَزَالُ النَّاسُ بِخَيْرٍ، شَكَّ أَبُو عَبْدِ الصَّمَدِ إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"This religion shall remain strong OR he said the people shall remain in goodness (the narrator was unsure) until twelve caliphs."

-Dawoud from Sha`bi:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ عَزِيزًا إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"This matter shall remain strong until twelve caliphs"

-Mujalid from Sha`bi:
إِنَّ هَذَا الدِّينَ لَنْ يَزَالَ ظَاهِرًا عَلَى مَنْ نَاوَأَهُ، لَا يَضُرُّهُ مُخَالِفٌ وَلَا مُفَارِقٌ، حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ مِنْ أُمَّتِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"This religion shall remain victorious over its opponents, unharmed by those who oppose it or leave it, until twelve caliphs from my nation come to pass."

-Ibn `Awn from Sha`bi:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ عَزِيزًا مَنِيعًا إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"This religion shall remain strong and fortified until twelve caliphs."

-`Amir bin Sa`d:
لَا يَزَالُ الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ أَوْ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ
"The religion will remain to be upright until the hour or you are ruled by twelve caliphs all from Quraysh."

-Isma`il bin Hurmuz from Hurmuz:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ تَجْتَمِعُ عَلَيْهِ الْأُمَّةُ
"The religion will remain to be upright until you are ruled by twelve caliphs, the nation shall gather united around them."

-Fitr from Hurmuz:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ مُؤَاتًي أَوْ مُقَارِبًا حَتَّى يَقُومَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"This matter shall continue to be appropriate or adequate until the rule of twelve caliphs."

-Hosayn:
لا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى يَقُومَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
"The religion will continue to be upright until the rule of twelve caliphs."

-Musayyib:
إِنَّ هَذَا الأَمْرَ لا يَزَالُ ظَاهِرًا لا يَضُرُّهُ خِلافُ مَنْ خَالَفَهُ حَتَّى يُؤَمَّرَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ مِنْ أُمَّتِي كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ
"This matter will remain to be victorious, unharmed by the opposition of any opponent until twelve from my nation are granted authority, all of them from Quraysh."

# Hadith says: "Kingdom is in Quraysh till Qiyamat"

Narrated Safinah:
The Prophet (saws) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills. Sa'id told that Safinah said to him: Calculate Abu Bakr's caliphate as two years, 'Umar's as ten, 'Uthman's as twelve and 'Ali so and so. Sa'id said: I said to Safinah: They conceive that 'Ali was not a caliph. He replied: The buttocks of Marwan told a lie.

Hadith says: "the Imams are from Quraysh"

The hadith of Anas from Al Tayalsi:

"The Imams are from Quraish, if they judge; they judge fairly. If they give an oath; they stick to it. If asked for mercy; they show it. If they don't, then may the curse of Allah, his angels, and all the people be upon them. No repentance or ransom will be accepted."

I thought your Imams were infallible, why does the Prophet threaten them with curses from Allaah, his angels and the people?!

# Like I said before (which you ignore) whether Imam fights or keep silent, accepted or not, recognized or not, it doesn't matter. Their lutf is enough to fill the earth. Our dear sheik ibn Taymiyyah agrees:

So you mean if he's a caliph whether he governs or not, this cannot be considered a Caliph, since he has no authority, this is a fact you're running around since, or is your caliph ruling spiritually? So Islam was in a state of izza during Abubakar(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Mu'awiyah(ra), Yazeed?!

That is a version of the Sulh al-Hassan and that version above is even misleading for it portrayed al-Hassan as if he was the one that wage war against Mu'awiyah. Other versions of Sulh al-Hassan say Mu'awiyah managed to gathered people around him by bribing and promising huge wealth to people and they abandoned al-Hassan. Whichever it is, the question is why did Mu'awiyah wage war against the Khilafah of al-Hassan?

The narration I posted is clear enough for anyone to understand, no conspiracy theories. As for the reason why Mu'awiyah(ra) wanted to fight Imam Hassan(ra), I don't know.

Lastly, as you partly and rightly quoted, according to Shi'i ithna Asher belief, al-Mahdi (as) is the 12th Imam guiding this Ummah with his God given Lutf. His reign started immediately after the death of his father, the 11th Imam from the Ahlulbayt of the Prophet. We believe al-Mahdi is in occultation and will only come out (as Sunni-Shi'i) ahadith reported, at the end of days by Allah's leave.

So since your so-called Mahdi as been hiding he's been guiding muslims right? So we're to follow the guardianship of man that went into hiding supposedly because of fear of the Abbasids? So Islam has always been izza during his time, during the mongols slaughter of Muslims Islam was in izza? During the crusade of the nasara, Islam was izza? When Muslims are slaughtering each other, Imam mahdi is guiding and Islam is still in izza? Now I can see how messed up things are!

# Your biggest problem about "Shi'i Mahdi in Ghayb (hidden)" is how can someone hidden be guiding the Ummah and Deen? Ash-Shaytan and his troops are in Ghayb since Allah cast him away from His kingdom of extra mercy. And so shall they be in Ghayb till al-Qiyamat YET THEY CONTINUE TO OPERATE IN MISLEADING MANKIND OF EVERY AGE.

You haven't showed how your Imam is guiding, for the case of Shaitan, everyone reasonable person can see the vices he uses to mislead. In our Era, he uses pornography, alcohol rebranding, etc. In fact he uses evil people to get to the believers but your Mahdi doesn't do any of this. Or are you trying to compare him with Shaitan?!

You are the one that took the 'fight' to Shia background that none of our Imam ever proclaimed himself to be first, second, third Imam etc. Apart from my claim that there are abundant Shi'i ahadith to prove this, I even made mention of al-Qunduzi Hanafi. Brother it is left for you to prove he was a Shi'i.

You made a bogus claim that he's a Sunni and I said he can't be, so it's left to you to prove he's a Sunni while I disprove. Hope you grab?

In your fantasy world. Even there is Sunni secondary source "Yanabiul Mawada" of al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi which documents that Prophet exclusively named all the 12 Imams by name. The best Ahlu sunnah Ulama could do was casting doubt to the "Sunnism" of al-Qunduzi Hanafi thereby paving way to reject his voluminous book of ahadith.

Al Qunduzi Hanafi is not a Sunni but a Shia or probably a Mu'tazila or other Sect but definitely not a Sunni

Whilst one category of hadith says those 12 Khalifahs will rule by kingdom, another category explain the "kingdom" to be "al-Wilayah".

Imam Muslims' narration you refer to is this:

It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

This narration compliments the one below, that's why it named #1821b. The narration of Muslim never stated "Wilayah" but مَا وَلِيَهُمُ "Maa Waliyahum" and everything has been translated accordingly. No conspiracy theories!

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:
I joined the company of the Prophet (ﷺ) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

Allah has promised Islam to prevail and dominate over ALL religion in different places of the Quran. This ability of it to stand till Qiyamat is its "Izza".

Ever since I've been having discussions with Shias they've always pointed out that Islam was in a state of "thila" (humiliation), but when the hadith of the 12 caliph sprung out, Islam is suddenly in a state of izza, now how is giving the rule to Mu'awiyah "izza"? How is Al Hussain being killed "izza"? THIS ITSELF LEADS TO ANOTHER OPENING!

Was Islam in a state of" izza" in Yazeed's time?

# Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan was a caller to Hell fire and opposer of Truth according to Sunni Sahih ahadith (I will be glad to share with comments of Sunni Shuyukh, ahadith should you request). He never gave allegiance or accepted the Khilafah of Ali and Hassan ibn Ali (as). Just as he waged war against Hassan's father, he did the same against the son, al-Hassan al-Mujtaba. How can he (Mu'awiyah), a baghi person, be a just and righteous Khalifah with those evil credentials?

Allah says in Surat Al-Hujurat, verse 9, "If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the Command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just)."

This is why I said the sahabas made mistakes, probably based on wrong Ijtehad. Muawiyah(ra) reason for not pledging allegiance was not because of the Caliphate even though he was wrong, he was the cousin of Uthman and he wanted revenge against the killers who probably were in Aliyy(ra) camp, but nevertheless, the way you're portraying isn't even the way the Ahl Beyt portrayed him. He was wrong for fighting Ali(ra).

"I know he is better than I am, and he has the right to rule, but do not you know that Uthman was killed as an innocent? And I am his cousin and the seeker of his revenge." [Authenticated by Ibn Hajr in Fath al Bari (13/ 92)]

Furthermore, Mu'awiyah was a curser of Ali ibn Abi Talib and he established the cursing of Ali (there are Sahih hadith to prove this). I have given you several sahih hadith that cursing Ali is an open passage to hell fire. Yet Mu'awiyah was a pious, legitimate and just Khalifah in your manhaj. Do you really have conscience?!

Muawiya RA said to Yazeed: Do honor his (i.e Hussain’s) relation to the Prophet(saw) because you should know that his father is better than your father and his mother is better than your mother. (Maqtal abi makhnaf p. 19.)

This is why delving into their matters is to be avoided. Muawiyah(ra) fought against Aliyy(ra), this is worse than insulting. We have authentic reports that both parties fought each-other with the sword and you're concerned about if they verbally abused or criticized each-other? That's why it's called a Fitnah, Mu'awiyah (ra) criticized 'Ali (ra) for issues of Qasas and 'Ali (ra) criticized Mu'awiyah (ra) for not giving him allegiance and obeying him. Yet Muawiyah(ra) was a pious, faqih sahabi who ruled the Ummah after Hassan(ra).

Even that aside, Imam An-Nawawi explained this scenario, hope you can look into it. The explanation of Imam An-Nawawi makes a lot of sense.

# Why do you need to personally remove Yazeed from your 12 lists of Khilafah? Didn't he possess power which is your main criteria of selection? Many of Sunni Ulama included him as many removed him making Sunni so-called list contradictory.

There was fitna during Yazeed's time, this is why he's excluded. I repeat that the Prophet didn't mention any name so any list is an assumption, even your list is an assumption. What of other Imams, why exclude them?!

# Any prove that any Ahlu sunnah Ulama counted Mahdi (as) as the 12th Khalifah? Again Sunni have exhausted the list of the 12, who is guiding the affair of Islam with military strength ever since the death of the 12th Sunni Khalifah till date and till "Sunni Mahdi" will arrive or born?

Al Suyuti(rah) counted Imam Mahdi. @underlined, what are you saying? Did the hadith state that there would be only 12 Caliphs till Qoyima?

Concerning your Mahdi thread, I read it to the very end and you messed up big time.

Why do you keep running away from Hadith Khalifatain? Why? This hadith completely destroyed Sunni Khilafah system. Offspring of the Prophet, the selected Ahlulbayt were the designated Khalifah. Nobody in the Ummah can match them in merits. They have been appointed by Allah and His Prophet and they have unmatched credentials.

We're not discussing Khalifatain here, you say the hadith of twelve caliphs refers to your Shia Imams. OK the hadith stated that Islam would be at izza during their period, so my question is was Islam in a state of izza during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abideen's time? Was Islam in a state of izza when the mongols and crusaders during the reign of Mahdi?! Simple question brother!

@underlined, obviously you have not read Islamic history. The military strength of Mu'awiyah was more than Hassan's. People deserted Hassan. Infact how dare Mu'awiyah waging war against an incumbent Khalifah? Indeed Mu'awiyah was a baghi.

Narrated Al-hasan Al-Basri: By Allah, Al-hasan bin Ali led large battalions like mountains against Muawiya. Amr bin Al-As said (to Muawiya), "I surely see battalions which will not turn back before killing their opponents." Muawiya who was really the best of the two men said to him, "O 'Amr! If these killed those and those killed these, who would be left with me for the jobs of the public, who would be left with me for their women, who would be left with me for their children?" Then Muawiya sent two Quraishi men from the tribe of 'Abd-i-Shams called 'Abdur Rahman bin Sumura and Abdullah bin 'Amir bin Kuraiz to Al-hasan saying to them, "Go to this man (i.e. Al-hasan) and negotiate peace with him and talk and appeal to him." So, they went to Al-hasan and talked and appealed to him to accept peace. Al-hasan said, "We, the offspring of 'Abdul Muttalib, have got wealth and people have indulged in killing and corruption." They said to Al-hasan, "Muawiya offers you so and so, and appeals to you and entreats you to accept peace." Al-hasan said to them, "But who will be responsible for what you have said?" They said, "We will be responsible for it." So, what-ever Al-hasan asked they said, "We will be responsible for it for you." So, Al-hasan concluded a peace treaty with Muawiya. Al-hasan (Al-Basri) said: I heard Abu Bakr saying, "I saw Allah's Apostle on the pulpit and Al-hasan bin 'Ali was by his side. The Prophet was looking once at the people and once at Al-hasan bin 'Ali saying, 'This son of mine is a Saiyid (i.e. a noble) and may Allah make peace between two big groups of muslims through him." (Bukhari Book #49, Hadith #867) 

Don't you run away from the question I asked you please. It is a question for the Sunni who had exhausted the list of their 12 Khalifah that was promised to ruled till Qiyamat as the hadith says. So the onus is on you to faithfully answer the question.

You didn't ask me any questions rather I've been asking you, something you've been going around since. You stated:

"# Shia believed Islam will continue to stands its feet till al-Qiyamah so long there is presence of Imam or Khalifa or Amir from the offspring of the holy Prophet on earth. Our Twelfth Imam, who is the Imam of the age, is al-Mahdi al-Muntazar."

And I replied:

"So who's guiding this Ummah now? Last time I checked your 12th Imam vanished, so who's guiding? "

# You interpreted this hadith saying the underlined do not include the period of the Sahabah that their period were the best of periods. You blatantly claimed the underlined refer to "Muslims of later generation".

You tried criticising the sahabas by claiming they didn't obey the Prophet something I refuted the verses of the Glorious Quran. You then tried to portray the sahabas as being hypocrites(nauzubillah). The stance of Ahl Sonnah on the Sahabah is: The Muslim-Sunni definition (not the linguistic one) is that only those who believed AND died upon belief are considered Sahaba (hence it excludes all Munafiqs and apostates). So although the Sunni asks Allah to be pleased with all Sahaba (those who accompanied the Prophet), yet as a Muslim he obviously intends only the real Sahaba (Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Ali, Abbas etc. and not Ibn Salul etc.!)

Again, that was the reason the holy Prophet emphatically concluded the hadith by saying "wa khalifatih fi kulli mu'minin min bahdi - And you (Ali) are my Khalifah over every believer after me".

We need to understand the context of this hadith, the Prophet made this proclamation when he left for Tabuk. While we know that the Prophet has made other people his deputy's such as Ibn Um Maktum (Ra) over Medina in the Battle of Kuraitha and Usaid Ibn Attab (Ra) over Makkah in the battle of Hunain and others. Thus we realize that this comparison can only be specific in this particular context of the Battle of Tabuk and is not general and cannot be used to prove Ali's Khilafah after the Prophet [saw].

As I've said severally that this cannot be a proof for Aliyy's Wilayah because Harun(as) didn't succeed Musa(as) but Yoosha(as) I gave a reason for this in my last post. But if one wanted to compare Ali [ra] like Harun(as) in all aspects except Prophethood then we can also compare Abu Bakr to Ibrahim and Umar to Nuh in all aspects except prophethood:

Narrated Ibn Masud and Ibn Abbas -May Allah be pleased with them- that the Prophet : O Abu Bakr you are like Ibrahim -Alyhi Assalam- when he said: " then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me, but Thou art indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" [14:36] and the likeness of you O Umar is to Nuh when he said: " "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth! " [71:26] (Narrated by Ibn Abi Asim , Ahmed and Al-Tabarani)

Which proves that Abu Bakr(ra) and Umar(ra) are the rightful successors , since they have been compared to Prophets Ibrahim and Nuh respectively who are of the five Ulu-Al-azm of the Prophets , the best from amongst all prophets, while Ali [ra] was only compared to Harun who is of a lesser status than Ibrahim, Nuh, Musa , Essa and Muhammad.

Observe: Hussein and Ali ibn Hussein were not your concern at all. Until you answer faithfully the following, only then can you open Hussein, and Zainul Abeedin's cases:

Here's the the different opinions of scholars on how they made their individual list: http://https://islamqa.info/en/146316

I have been asking you this question ever since but you've refused to answer me. If this hadith applies to your Imams, was islam in a state of izza in Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abide Ed's time? Was islam in a state of izza when the mongols and crusaders attacked during Mahdi reign?!

jcross19:
very proud of me sir or ma because am exposing the devil. Allah is an idol worshipped in kaa"ba then can you tell us the meaning of kaa'aba sir? Can you.

But fellow Christians call God Allaah, it's better you keep shut, if you don't know something. Don't be ignorant.

jcross19:
allah is poo? Who is allah by th way? Why word "allah" can you make use of olorun in english sentence? Why not "God"? If that allah do not stand for another thing?, then why abdullah who is the father of mohammad was idol worshipper beard the name of his deity allah? 360gods of kaa'ba allah was exalted because he belong to the house evil mohamMAD. Please op where did you see that video where deedat was shouting like a goat.

Would christ be proud of you with this utterance?

WA alaykum Salam my brother with a name that make mouth salivate

# Anybody can hijack and assumed power but not all are appointed by Allah. Shia first argument still remain that those 12 Khalifahs or Imam or Amirs were Appointed by Allah and His Messenger.

Not all hijackers are bad, let's say there's a tyrant and the Khalifah is hijacked from him, is it a bad one? That's not the case here, when Ahl Sonnah chose their Caliphs they based it on those who were just. Like Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Aliyy, Hassan, Muawiyah, Umar Ibn Abdulaziz, etc. This is why it doesn't make sense that Yazeed is to be placed here!

# Playing your "Izza" card, what happened to Islamic Izza after the Twelfth Khalifah of Ahlu Sunnah had apparently died centuries back while we still have Allah knows centuries to Mahdi arrival (who was not even on Sunni list of 12 Khalifahs) or al-Qiyamat. After all the presence of Khalifah with power and military prowess makes Islam stand its feet in line with the reasoning of Ahlu Sunnah?

The Mehdi is yet to come, I don't know who else you're talking about. Some consider him to be part of the twelve others don't, they separate his Era because they Prophet spoke about differently. The hadith stated that Islam would be in a state of izza in their time, this is a very crucial point we must consider. My question is, would there be Qoyimah after Mehdi?

# If the criteria of Ahlu Sunnah in selecting the names of 12 Khalifahs is "assumption to power and military strength", why were the names of all the rest of Banu Abbas, Banu Ummayads Khalifahs not selected? That was the reason why Ahlu sunnah NEVER concluded on the names of their 12 Khalifahs. Ahlu sunnah had tens of Khalifahs till it ended at Ottoman empire.

Every ruler had more virtues than the other, so that's why some were ignored others were picked. Concerning the Ottomans, Sokoto, etc. This rulers acknowledge the fact caliphs are only from Qureysh, that's why most of them preferred to use "Sultan", "Amir" or "Emir", even though they used Caliphs it was used to denote "successor".

# Why did Sunni included Imam Hassan to the list of their 12 Khalifahs who possess power? If al-Hassan (as) truly possess power, why did he abdicated the Khilafah for more "powerful" Mu'awiyah? After all this same Mu'awiyah waged war against Imam Ali (as) at Siffin, yet Ali never rescinded his Khilafah.

Hassan(ra) had power, if he wanted to go to war with Muawiyah(ra) he would have. But Allaah's messenger prophesied about him uniting two groups of Muslims, if you'll agree with me Hassan(ra) was able to raise an army. So he had power and he and father(ra) are among the 12,the question is did the remaining 10 have power and authority?

# Shia believed Islam will continue to stands its feet till al-Qiyamah so long there is presence of Imam or Khalifa or Amir from the offspring of the holy Prophet on earth. Our Twelfth Imam, who is the Imam of the age, is al-Mahdi al-Muntazar.

So who's guiding this Ummah now? Last time I checked your 12th Imam vanished, so who's guiding?

Thanks for adding more bullets to my arsenal. The Ummah of both Nabi Musa and Nabi Muhammad have mixed companions in good and bad. Another identical similarities.

Sorry brother, I don't see how this adds to your ammunition. You implied the sahabas disobeyed the Prophet which is also disobeying Allaah, I said nothing as such. You then tried to compare them with the followers of Musa(as), something the Quran the doesn't agree with you. Anyways, lemme give you more proofs:

Abi Burda reports from his father: He (Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam)) raised his head toward the heavens and said: "The stars are the protection for the sky - when the stars have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to the sky. I am the protection for my Companions - when I have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to my companions. My Companions are the protection for this Ummah - when they have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to this Ummah." [Saheeh Muslim]

Al-Majlisee narrated a tradition from at-Toosee stating that 'Ali Ibn Abee Talib r.a told his companions: "I advise you not to tease the companions of the prophet s.a.w. They are the companions of those who neither introduced any innovation into the faith nor did they honour innovators. Yes, this is the advice of the prophet s.a.w about them"
Al-Majlisee, Hayyat ul-Quloob (vol. 2), p. 621

Imam Ja'far 'as-Saadiq said:"The companions of the Prophet (SAWA) numbered 12,000. 8000 from Madeenah, 2000 from Makkah, and 2000 from Talakas. None of them was a Qadree, a Marharbee, a Harooree or a Mu'tazilee. None of them held an opinion that clashed with the established tenets of the Qur'an and Sunnah...they spent their nights weeping and praying, "Oh Allah take away our lives before we eat bread"
al-Qummee, Kitaab ul-Khisaal (Tehraan: Maktabah as-Sudooq), p. 640 (all narrators are thiqa/trustworhty).

So brother I suggest you leave the path of Takfeer and Tasfeeq of the Sahabah and accusing them of things that the Ahl Al-Bayt never did, the Sahaba were no Rafidites, no Kharijis, No Murji'ah, No Nawasib, they were upon the right way as Al-Sadiq said, and as his grandfather Muhammad said peace be upon them all.

That is the reason the hadith is explicit and crystal clear emphasising on after me. Prophet knew Harun died before Musa. Harun was older than Musa. He knew Harun was a prophet and there is no other after him (the holy Prophet). Observe, Harun was a natural successor of Musa but Allah had a plan different. Harun died earlier. In contrast, prophet knew Ali is younger than him. He knew Ali will live longer than him. Hence, the Hadith Sherif reads:

This hadith is actually a proof against those who claim Wilayat of Aliyy, because Harun's succession to Musa after Musa's death never happened , and thus this means that Ali's (ra) succession after the Prophet(saw) would not happen. And just as the companion of Prophet Musa (a.s) in his journey to Al-Khidr became his successor after his death (i.e Joshua bin Nun), so also the companion of the Prophet [s.a.w.w] in his journey from Mecca to Medina became his successor.

Let's say for the sake of this argument that this refers to the twelve Imams of the Shia, was Islam in a state of izza during Hussain and Zain Al Abideen's time?!

@Bold above, Hadith Khalifatain which you seemed to be scared of exclusively mentioned the Khalifah after the holy Prophet to be his offspring, the Ahlulbayt. Besides, another hadith - Hadith Khalifah and Hadith Wilayah have been quoted again and again which exclusively mentioned Ali's name as Prophet's immediate Khalifah and Wali over every believer.

I didn't mention anything concerning Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah(rah) or did I? So why trying to explain his fatwa? Our case here, is the Prophet said there would be 12 Caliphs in whose time Islam would be in a state of izza. I said this can't be your Imams because only 2 had powers, but you say contrary. Moreover, none of the Imams ever claimed, I'm the first, second, sixth, etc Imams. Today many Sunnis fall into the trap that the Shia has 12 imams, this is false.

The same thing you accuse Ahl Sonnah, that is cherry picking Caliphs is what you Shias are also guilty of. What of Imam Hussan Al Massana bin Hassan (rah), Imam Abdullah bin Hassan, Imam Zayd bin Ali (rah), Imam Yahya bin Zayd (rah), Imam Esa bin Zayd (rah), Imam Muhammad bin Abdullah (rah) alias Nafs az- Zakiyah, Imam Ibraheem bin Abdullah (rah), Imam Ismael bin Jaffar (rah) and many others. Are they not Imams too?! Why exclude them?

Absolutely Nabi Ibrahim was both a Prophet and Messenger sent to his people. He was further elevated to the status of Imamah which Quran clarify to be UNIVERSAL as opposed to Ibrahim's Nubuwah and Risalat which were specific. Only Muhammad's Nubuwah and Risalat were Universal.

LOL, I made that comparison after you tried to connect the Imamah of Prophet Ibrahim(as) and Aliy(ra). If Aliyy is superior because Prophet Ibrahim was made Imam after Prophet hood, then Abubakar is more superior because Prophet Dawud is made a Prophet afterwards a Caliph. Now how's that?!

Brother BeansAndBread, you obviously have a highest mountain to climb to refute the verse of Imamah in the Quran. Superiority of Prophet's Ahlulbayt does not only lies with "verse of Imamah". There is "verse of Istafa" where Allah chose them above mankind. And interestingly in all of your salat, you (BeansAndBread) and all Muslims continuously making "covenant" in Salat Ibrahimiyah quoted above. What do you think is meant by saying: O Allah bless Muhammad and Ahli Muhammad in exactly the same manner You have blessed Ibrahim and Ahli Ibrahim?

Looks like you're getting it wrong, I'm not arguing about the Theory of Imamah maybe some other time, you claim the 12 imams are the caliphs, now give me proofs why the other 10 didn't have power and authority? If they did, was Islam in izza during Hussain(ra) and Zain(ra)?

Empiree:
walaikum salaam I was right. I sensed that....lol

Salam Aleikom AlBaqir

Am afraid you are the one mixing things up with your self-styled interpretations. Hadith of 12 Khalifahs is what is before us. While you maintained that the cap can fit anybody since "no name" was mentioned, you selected your 12 based on military prowess and power possession due to the fact that the hadith says the Ummah will continue to be strong and Islam stands its feet. This "izza of Ummah/Islam" has been dealt with already.

Yes Ahl Sonnah picked their twelve based on military prowess and the fact that Islam had izza then, I maintained that even if the Imams were alive they don't have to be the Caliph. I keep saying Talut(as) was a King during the reign of a Prophet, Caliph Al-Mamon made Ali Ridha(rah) is adviser and the whole Ummah was favored then.

No one dealt with Izza, explain what you mean by the Izza?

# Hadith Ghadir: How does it defending and praising Ali? Sunni myth was that Ali had several enemies, therefore Prophet enjoined them to love Ali and take him as their friends. Prophet had warned the sahabah ever before the event of Ghadir Khumm (few months to his death) thus:

No one is dealing with Hadith Ghadir here, we're talking about the 12 caliph Hadith! You said the 12 imams are the caliphs in which during their reign Islam was in Izza, now why is that among all the 12 only 2 had authority and power? This is a question you've been running around since, was Islam in Izza during Hussain and Zain Al Abideen's time?

He(saw) said Islam will be good in their reign, he didn't say there will only be 12 rulers, he said in a Sahih Hadith that there will be MANY rulers.

* Very unfortunate you interpret the word "my Ummah" in the hadith sherif to mean "later generations of the Muslims" excluding the period of Sahabah relying on "hadith of best of generations".

Still you're presenting any fact, the generation of the Sahabas cannot be compared with that of followers of Musa(as). Lemme show you another verse from the Quran:

And what reason have you that you should not spend in Allah's way? And Allah's is the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, not alike among you are those who spent before the victory and fought (and those who did not): they are more exalted in rank than those who spent and fought afterwards; and Allah has promised good to all; and Allah is Aware of what you do. Quran 57:10

As you can see Allaah himself differ among the companions so do we. The Sahabas are not perfect they made mistakes, but you trying to portray them in extreme light doesn't make sense.

* Prophet himself made similarity in STATUS (MANZILA) between Harun and Ali (in relation to Musa and himself) to the extent that both were betrayed by their Ummah yet you claim there were no similarities.

Harun(as) was not the successor of Musa(as), Harun(as) WAS MADE A PROPHET DURING Musa's(as) lifetime. Ali was made the leader after the death of the Prophet!

Offspring/Family of Ibrahim?!
"Verily, Allah chose Adam, Nuh, the Family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds..." {al-Imran:33}

Yes it includes all the Ahl Beyt of the Prophets, including their wives and children. I'm disputing any fact about the Ahl Muhammad, they're good, knowledgeable and had great piety. We're not discussing about the the families of the above Prophets. Why is that among all the 12 imams only 2 had power and authority? If we say they the 12 imams are the caliphs, was Islam good and great during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abideen's(rah) time?

I did not. Prophet himself did but you chose to interpret his hadith to protect Sunni manhaj of making ALL Sahabah infallible.

@underlined, looks like you're giving "infallible" another meaning, I'm not a Shia that would declare humans infallible. Everyone is bound to make errors, here's a definition for "infallible" incase you're missing something:

in·fal·li·ble
inˈfaləb(ə)l/
adjective
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

To be continued.....

lexiconkabir:
oh! no problem, i was forced to believe you had an original moniker because you mentioned some nairalanders, anyway, i will advice you chat her up privately, and not in the group, dont tell her you want to marry her o! just tell her you've been noticing her in school(after you've introduced yourself) and you want her to be your friend, if she likes you as your story implies, then things will work out magically, its bit by bit, but remember not to transgress the limits set by Allah. goodluck!

I appreciate bro

lexiconkabir:
just two questions, after you answer that, i willl give advice you asked for. (1)what is your original moniker?....(2)why must you open a new moniker just to ask this question(i have such intentions tho! ), you opened the moniker on the 15th, you asked on the 15th, thats how i know .

1. I've always been a visitor, but I needed an answer that's why I registered immediately.

2. No this is my first time on Nairaland, I have always been a visitor.

Empiree:
the brother must love Ewa aganin and Buredi. I was confused when i first noticed his moniker

And you funny too the way u worded it "brother BeansAndBread"


Following............

Salam Aleikom brother, I love the Eko type of Ewa ganin and buredi, it makes my day wallahi.

Salam Aleikom brother ShiaMuslim, concerning the term "Ahl Sonnah", it was used by an Ahl Beyt aka the supporter of Aliyy, Abdullah Ibn Abbas as shown below:

Imam Al-Lalaka’i mentions in his ‘Sharh Usul I’tiqad Ahl as-Sunnah’ (1/72) – a book where many SAHIH narrations from Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq(rhm)– that the first person to have actually used the term ‘Ahl Al-Sunnah wa Al-Jama’ah’ was Ibn ‘Abbas the Hashimite Sahabi of the Ahl Al-Bayt, when explaining the verse:

{“…on the day when some faces will be brightened, and some faces will be blackened…”} [Al ‘Imran; 106]

He said: “Those whose faces will be brightened are Ahl Al-Sunnah wa Al-Jama’ah. As for those whose faces will be blackened, then they are the people of innovation and misguidance (Ahl Al-Bida’ wa Al-Dhalalah).”

The Ghadir Khom has nothing whatsoever to do with the the appointment of Ali as the successor of the Prophet. This event was defending and praising Ali, looks like you're digressing from the topic. It doesn't change the fact that none of 12 imams apart from Ali(ra) and Hussain(ra) was the caliph in which the Ummah was in a state of izza!

^ As for the case of Talut, it only proves the Shi'i position that only Allah appoints rulers for the Ummah. Even being a prophet does not make one an automatic ruler.

It's also proves my position that being the most knowledgeable doesn't always imply you'll be the leader!

Salam Aleikom AlBaqir, my rebuttal is in two parts. I would ignore some parts which are irrelevant so as the discussion wouldn't be too long and clumsy thereby making it boring for those learning:

Absolutely there are lots of comparison between the two Ummah. Imam al-Tirmidhi documents:

"Abd Allah ibn Amir: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: 'Verily, everything that occurred to the offspring of Israil will occur to my Ummah in identical manners, such that if any of them had sexual intercourse with his mother publicly, there will certainly be in my Ummah someone who will do that. Verily, the offspring of Israil divided into seventy-two religions; and my Ummah will divide into seventy-three religions, all of them will be in fire except one religion." They said, "Who are those, O Messenger of Allah?' He replied, "That which I and my Sahabah follow."

No there isn't any comparison with the followers of Musa(as), the above narration refers to later generation of Muslims not the generation of the Sahabas. A narration shows this:

Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 6151: Abdullah reported: It was asked from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) who amongst the people were the best. He said: (People) of my generation, then those next to them, then those next to them, then there would come a people whose evidence would precede their oath and their oath would precede their evidence. Ibrahim said: They forbade us to make vows and bear witness when we were too young.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 3: Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said, "The best people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come some people who will bear witness before taking oaths, and take oaths before bearing witness." (Ibrahim, a sub-narrator said, "They used to beat us for witnesses and covenants when we were still children."

So stop comparing Muslims with the people of Musa(as)

Function of Khilafah and Imamah
# The position of Khilafah/ Amir or Imamah is very sensitive. In respect to Nabi Dawud (as), Allah states that he was his Khalifah on earth and its function was immediately stated: "Judge between people by the Truth". In respect with Imamah, Allah states its function: "To guide people by His Commands". To judge by the Truth, and to guide by Allah's command, you need to be the most pious knowledgeable in Allah's and Prophet's divine laws.

Yes you're stating qualities of khalifah, no one disputes this fact. The hadith we're talking about mentions that Islam would have izza during their time, it neither describe their qualities nor mentioned any name. Now for the above qualities; it fits Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Aliy, etc. Me personally would exclude Yazeed! No matter how we continue to debate, the fact of the matter is only 2 out of the Imams had power! It's because of this qualities the scholars of AhlSonnah were so careful! Even if we're to accept for the sake of this argument that the 12 Imams fit, was Islam strong during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al-Abideen's time?

# Allah states: VERSE OF AL-IMAMAH
"And when Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with some statements, and he fulfilled them, He said, 'I will appoint you an IMAM of mankind.' He (Ibrahim) asked, 'And of my offspring?'. He (Allah) replied, 'My Covenant shall not reach the wrongdoers" {Quran 2:124}

Are you saying because Prophet Ibrahim(as) was a prophet THEN ALLAH MADE HIM AN IMAM … thus Ali RAA is greater than everyone else because Imamat is after Prophet hood? Sorry brother, I don't think this verse refers or even supports the theory of Imamah. Did you miss that Prophet Ibrahim has also been cited as a nation in Surah 16.120, which would make the status of a nation even higher.

[16:120]Verily, Ibrâhim (Abraham) was an Ummah(a leader having all the good righteous qualities), or a nation, obedient to Allâh, Hanifa (i.e. to worship none but Allâh), and he was not one of those who were Al-Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and those who joined partners with Allâh).

038.026 O David! We did indeed make thee a Caliph on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of God: for those who wander astray from the Path of God, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

Thus now I will say that the Status of Caliph is higher than that of a prophet, thus Abubakar(ra) is greater than everyone else??

For the other parts of the posts, that doesn't show that the other 10 were ruled the Ummah!

* So according to your manhaj, whoever does not possess power is not a Caliph. Therefore good or evil person, once he possess power, he is qualified to be the Khalifah of the holy Prophet. This reasoning of Ahlu Sunnah accomodate Mu'awiyah and his cursed son Yazeed. I need to remind you on the following:

The nature of the person ruling doesn't necessarily negate the Izza of the Ummah. Are you telling me because Genghis Khan was bloody tyrant then mongols were in a state of decline? Does it?

# Few of the Prophet of Allah [Musa, Dawud, Sulaiman and Muhammad] had power to rule over their communities. Majority of other Prophet were rejected and never had power to rule. Does that render their nubuwah/Risalah null and void? Allah revealed how Nabi Musa appointed his brother (Nabi Harun), a prophet, his Khalifah over his people while Musa went to Mount Sinai to meet his Lord. Quran clearly revealed the Bani Israel rejected and nearly killed Harun while they appointed Samiri as their leader instead. Does that nullified the Nubuwaship and Khilafah-ship of Nabi Harun?

Brother stop comparing the companions of Prophet Muhammad(saw) with that of Prophet Musa(as), here's the difference:
Sahabas

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." Quran 2:285

Followers of Prophet Musa

And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers." Quran 2:93

# Zulfiqar qouted an hadith earlier where the holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his purified progeny) was reported to have said: "Hassan and Hussein are Imams whether they sit or stand". There is no doubt about the Sahih-ness of this hadith. Observe the following:

* Imam Hassan was the legitimate Khalifah after his father, Imam Ali. Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan rebelled against Imam Hassan and was ready to kill Muslims just to assume power. This was exactly what Mu'awiyah did by waging war against Imam Ali in the battle of Siffin. Thousands of believers died which include prominent companions of the Prophet on the side of Ali. Notable among them was Ammar ibn Yassir, whom the holy Prophet has told that a baghi (illegitimate, evil, rebel) group will killed while he will be calling them to Paradise and they will be calling him (Ammar) to hell-fire. Imam Hassan abdicate the Khilafah to power monger Mu'awiyah to avoid spilling the blood of believers.

In this vein, the two (Hassan and Mu'awiyah)'s Khilafahship can never be legitimate. Sunni approved the two. Shia rejected Mu'awiyah's khilafahship outrightly. He was a baghi.

# Imam Hussein vs The cursed Yazeed ibn Mu'awiyah. Which one of the two qualified to be your Imam/Caliph?

Yazeed was a Kafir, a drunkard, fornicator as his father was a baghi. There are too many Sahih Sunni ahadith confirming that. Be my guest by requesting please.

Still doesn't change the fact among all the 12 imams proclaimed only 2 were Caliphs. They had no power!

Absolutely your research is far from being completed, if at all there is one.

If the Prophet meant Ali and his offspring, he would have stated explicitly Banu Hashim or Banu Talib but he stated Banu Quraysh. It'll be better if you stop implying what the hadith never implied!

As stated here:

Nahjul Balagha, SERMON 91:

When people decided to Swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of Uthman, Ali said:
"Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colors, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever [anyone else] may say. If you leave me, then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whosoever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief."

Why did Ali (ra) first refuse to be Caliph when his people tried to nominate him? It's right there in the sacred collection of Ali's sermons. Would Ali (ra) refuse the task if it was something that was DEMANDED by Allah and his prophet? This would be declaring Ali (ra) a Faasiq (rebel against Allah) for shirking his duty to be Caliph.

# @underlined, the challenge is not quite clear. Are you saying the word "imam" is not used in the hadith or what? If that is your challenge, then obviously you do not take into consideration all the versions of the hadith. Prophet used three synonymous word: Khalifah, Amir and Imam.

Brother, I need an authentic narration that uses "Imam",that's all no need for conspiracy theories!

For example, Imam Abu Ya'la (d. 307 H) documents:

Anas: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The IMAMS are from Quraysh"

Sheik Dr. Asad says: Its chain is Sahih

Ref: Musnad Abu Ya'la (Damascus: Dar al-Mamun Li al-Turath; 1st edition, 1404 H)[annotator: Dr. Husayn Salim Asad], vol. 6, p.321,#3644.

This hadith is actually mutawatir, as al-Hafiz (d. 852 H) stated:

"The hadith 'The Imams are from Quraysh' is recorded by al-Nasai from Anas, and al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Du'a, and al-Bazzar and al-Bayhaqi also narrated it, through several chains, from Anas. I say: I gathered its chains in a separate volume from forty Sahabah."

Ref: Ahmad b. Hajar al-Asqalani, Talkhis al-Habir (Dar al-Kutub al-'Illmiyyah; 1st edition, 1419 H), vol.4, p.116,#1730

LOL, looks like you don't know what you've done. This is why hadith-cutting is very dangerous! The narration of Anas in which you speak about is tbis:

The hadith of Anas from Al Tayalsi:

"The Imams are from Quraish, if they judge; they judge fairly. If they give an oath; they stick to it. If asked for mercy; they show it. If they don't, then may the curse of Allah, his angels, and all the people be upon them. No repentance or ransom will be accepted."

Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.

Hadith of Ali from Al Mustadrak:

"The Imams are from Quraish. The pious   of them rule the pious people, while the wicked from them rule the wicked people..."

Seems like your Imams were wicked as well, please present proper evidences. The narrations you're trying to link together are totally different!

# First this myth has been dealt with already. You do not need to assumed power to confirm the validity of your position. The onus lies with the Ummah to accept or reject your position but that does not nullify the appointed position and responsibility. Many Prophets were rejected by their Ummah yet their position and responsibility remain intact. The onus lies with their Ummah to accept or reject. According to the Quran, the responsibility of the Imams is stated:

Then this contradicts actions of Ali in Nahj after the death of Uthman when he was asked to be the Caliph and he refused, I posted above.

Obviously you have deviated from your Sunni manhaj. Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H) writes

How does my quote go against the Manhaj of AhlSonnah? Being the most knowledgeable or spiritually uplifted doesn't necessarily mean you must become the Caliph. Talut(as) was a King during the time of a Prophet! A caliph made an Imam his advisor and the rest, so néed to complicate the issue.

Salam Aleikom my brother ZhulFiqar, I just want to look critically at some points you raised and that of the brother Demmzy15.

it is very ironic that the Sunni scholars, as quoted above, would prepare a list of 12 from amongst their tens of caliphs to match to this hadith with no basis why they decide to choose those 12 names. some of them even include Yazeed, while others disregard him.

When the Olama of AhlSonnah mentioned this they based it on the hadith reference to the izza of Islam. As pointed earlier by the brother, it can't refer to the Shia Imams because only 2 had power as Caliphs. Concerning Yazeed, he might be on the list or not but whoever puts his name there has his reason.

then these same people would accuse the Shia of being the ones bringing up the names of their Twelve Imams to match up with the hadiths. yet, the Twelve Imams of the Shia are all from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and were one after the other until the Twelfth. It was not a case that the Shia have countless, many or over 30 Imams from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and amongst them, like Sunnis do with their over 30 caliphs, they pick a list of 12. it is not the fault of the Shia that the line of Imamate stopped with the Twelfth Imam. it was not by choice that that happened, but by divine decree as the hadith of the Prophet (s) had predicted. these 12 Imams from the Prophet's progeny were one after another. it was a succession of father to son, by Allah's decree as this verse explains better:

Did the Prophet name the 12? NO! So any list would be an assumption. All the Caliphs who ruled are to be taken into the consideration and analyzed critically. We know 6 of this caliphs of already; Abubakar(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Aliy(ra), Hasan(ra) and Muawiyah(ra). This narration shed a little light on how the companions understood it, this was after the death of Uthman(ra):

Uqbah bin Aws al Sadusi narrated: Ibn Umar RA said: In this nation there shall be twelve Caliphs, Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq, you got his name right, Omar Al-Farouq as an iron horn you got his name right, Othman who is Zhu Nourain (the one with two lights) has been given two portions of mercy for he was innocently killed, you got his name right.
source: Takhreej Kitab al Sunnah 1154 by Sheikh al Albani.

"”Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

carries a lot of suspicion. note the emphasis "and my father said that he said"!!! and why did he not hear that "something" and his father told him-not the Prophet- that "all of them will be from Quraysh". could the Prophet (s) have added that all of them would be from Banu Hashim or from his Ahlul-Bayt (as) which the narrator concealed or claimed or even actually "did not hear"? in any case, all the caliphs being from quraysh again does disservice to the Sunnis. there were many Sunni caliphs not from Quraysh. and the hadith also discredits the Sunni rulers of today who are not from Quraysh!!! yet still, the Sunni caliphs from Quraysh were still more than 12!!! this hadith is really a thorn to Sunnis. however they twist it, it backfires on them!!!

Brother we're not dealing on assumptions, if the hadith is 12 imams, then give us a factual proof not assumptions. If we are to say that the state of the religion is affected by how close the ruler is to the correct guidance, there is an exception stated in the Hadith that the condition of the religion will be good during the rule of the first twelve. The twelve Shia Imams never had authority, in fact they lived under takkiyah according to Rafdism.

the hadith states that Islam will prevail for as long as there are Twelve and this life will not end until those Twelve. it doesnt mean if the Twelve, or eleven of the Twelve, were all persecuted and martyred that means they failed. indeed Allah's promise to the prophets will be fulfilled with Imam Mahdi, the Twelfth, when he returns along with Prophet Jesus (as). so the argument that the hadith cant refer to the Twelve Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) is very dishonest. the Twelve Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) the Shia believe in were the fountain of Islamic Learning and Knowledge. the four imams of the four Sunni schools of thought benefitted immensely from the knowledge of Imam Ja'far Ibn Muhammad, al-Sadeq (as), the Sixth Imam. look at the dishonesty of Ibn Taymiyyah's word in saying that only Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) carried a sword. he disregarded Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain, both of whom fought with their father in the Battle of Siffin against Ibn Taymiyyah's role model Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan. further, Imam Hussain (as) gallantly stood in Karbala against Yazeed (Ibn Taymiyyah and the Wahhabis/Salafists' role model) with his sword and sacrificed everything for the defense of Islam and ended up having his blood triumph over the sword of falsehood of Banu Umayyah.

You're getting it wrong brother, as we've maintained only 2 of your Imams were Caliphs. Your argument is that the Imams were Beacon of knowledge and spirituality, no one disproves that fact. When Talut (as) was ruling he was appointed a King while a Prophet (as) was alive in that rule. So the most knowledgeable doesn't have to be the ruler. This doesn't stop them from being Imams, but they're definitely not the Caliphs the Prophet talked about!

Rone16:
You have nothing to loose either ways.Besides if she has actually been looking at you and smiling like you said,she won't be offended so I think you should try but please don't tell her you want to marry her .Start by being her friend then graduating gradually to bf etc

Thanks I appreciate!

Rone16:
Capital NO..You can see everyone's number on the group chat nw.Get her number and whatsapp her privately.

I was thinking she'll be offended? Or what do you think sis?

Ok