₦airaland Forum

@BERNIMOORE, I am specifically not giving time to your posts because I have actually answered them in mine. Go through my posts, especially the scriptures I gave you would fing your answer[/quote

NONE OF YOU POSTS ANSWERS WHAT YOU QUOTED FROM MY POST, MAYBE YOU NEED TO TAILOR YOUR ANSWER TO MY POST THAT YOU QUOTED .

if the gift of interpretation is not manifested or converted after nowadays it doesn't make tongues fake.

It's not true. There are several kinds of speaking in tongues. If you preach to people in tongues ,you need to interprete but if you're praying to God in tongues that's perfectly normal ,you don't need interpretation. Every christian ought to speak in tongues.

Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

There are several kinds of speaking in tongues.

And talking about a 'standard', yes indeed, Abraham's tithes lays the foundation for Biblical tithes historically (please note: I did NOT say that Abraham was the first in history to give tithes; rather, historically his gifts to Melchizedek lays the foundation for BIBLICAL TITHES)

historically his gifts to Melchizedek lays the foundation for BIBLICAL TITHES

1. You will be hard pressed to show that Abraham's tithes were 'subsumed' into the Law Covenant;

2. You will be harder pressed to show that Abraham's tithes were 'gone with the Law'.

anti-tithers who argue that tithing is gone with the Law have a huge problem explaining WHY Paul used the same Law of Moses to teach CHRISTIANS about giving and supporting God's ministers in the New Testament!! Quite often,[color=#000099] when I have quoted 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 to show this fact,[/color] many anti-tithers have ducked, excused and scurried away from this fact only to expose the shoddy arguments they have been presenting.

4Have we not power to eat and to drink?
6Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?  
9For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.'

Note all the bolded. Why would Paul quote from the OT to a Gentile church especially regarding supporting they of the gospel?

I have asked what is the 'power over you' he talked about and their right to food and drink. The food and drink, ofcourse, at the expense of the flock.

I can see people are enjoying this topic, usually controversial. There is enough evidence from the thread (Bible verses in KJV) to support the fact that the apostles and early Christians spoke in "unknown" tongues. It was called unknown because the natural human mind cannot fathom it. 'Unknown Tongues' is a gift to the body of Christ - a very lethal weapon for Christians against the devil ,  now you know why he is fighting it, even on nairaland. whether you believe it or not, the truth remains the truth and you will answer to this truth somewhere down the road of your life, here or there.

Stop talking about what you don't know, rather sit and watch ,

If you claim the principle of the Levitical tithe was to support "a priesthood," then the principle would be the need to support a priesthood, NOT that it had to be, or should be, a tenth.


"Tenth" is an exact, not a principle.

Offering is a principle, I said earlier, don't get into the petty petty of wave offering ,or sin offering. Those are for the Jews . What counts is that you cant say you are worshiper of God without offerings. Offerings and tithes are based on same principles . Principles are eternal.

You are trying to over-spiritualise things.
Even Jesus talked about the 'measure you give'

@snowy,
I never cease to be amazed at your ability to endure this much on this issue. Many righteous men have left the argument seeing it as waste of time.but at least some individuals are still learning one or two things from you.

Many righteous men have left the argument seeing it as waste of time

but at least some individuals are still learning one or two things from you.

MANY HAVE THANKED ME,AND ASK ME FOR SUGGESTIONS, AND I HAVE ONLY MAKE SUGGESTIONS WHICH THEY ACCEPTED TO FOLLOW, THAT IS,IF YOU MUST PAY A TENTH FOLLOWING YOUR MIND, FIRST, THINK OF WHO THE TITHING INSTITUTION WAS MEANT FOR, IN THE LAW, WHICH INCLUDES, THE POOR,AND THE FATHERLESS WHO ALWAYS HAVE A PLACE IN BOTH THE LAW AND UNDER GRACE, WHICH BOTH THE PHARISEES AND MODERN PASTORS HAVE ABUSED THEIR POWERS, THEN THARE THE TENTH INTO 3 PARTS, GIVE THE CHURCH 30 PER CENT, SHARE 50 PER CENT INTO ENVELOPERS AND SHARE TO THE NEEDY PEOPLES YOU NOTICED IN THE CHURCH INDIVIDUALLY WITHOUT INFORMING THE CHURCH,BECAUSE YOUR RIGHT HAND MUST NOT KNOW WHAT THE LEFT IS DOING,, AND THE LAST 20 PERCENT TO CHARITY, AND JUST WAIT FOR BLESSINGS FROM THOSE WHO FEEL YOUR GESTURE, AND HOW GOD WILL BLESS YOU ABUNDANTLY. JUST GIVE IT A TRY NOW. AN BE SURPRISED.

If they can afford it, give it to the church if led by the Spirit to do so.  Let the Spirit guide you as to how much to give, and to where to give.  Much better to give a tenth than to pay a tenth.

May be you should study the word before you post. It was in verse 3. I just did not add that scripture.

SNOWWY,OR WHAT DO YOU CALL YOURSELF, SEE MY LAST POST THAT YOU SAID THAT YOU REPLIED;

IF YOU ARE SURE OF IT THAT IT WAS BECAUSE SOMEONE IS EXAMINING HIM, SHOW US IN THE BIBLE WHO THEY ARE STRAIGHT AWAY. IM WAITING,DONT DODGE THIS IF YOU EVER WANT ANYBODY TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

NOW, I REPEAT,WHO ARE THEY THAT ARE EXAMINING PAUL, ? WHO?  THATS MY QUESTION COMPARE IT AGAIN WITH MY LAST POST, IF YOUR  POINT OR PROOF IS SO SURE,WHY DID YOU DROP IT, ACCORDING TO YOU, NOTE THAT 'YOU ARE EXPECTED TO PROOVE HERE, YOU ARE CHALENGED HERE, AND THAT THE ONUS,OR THE BURDEN OF PROOF NOW LIES ON YOU TO DELIVER 'WHO' YOU SAID ARE EXAMINING PAUL. WHICH YOU ARE YET TO DO,

DONT TELL ME THAT YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF GAS HERE. ANYWAY DONT DODGE ANSWERING QUESTIONS AGAIN.

HOW DO YOU SEE MY LAST POST THAT DEAL WITH YOUR 'POWER OVER YOU' TITHE' AND 'PRIESTHOOD' YOU ONLY REVERSE BACK TO TREAT THE OLD POST,IS IT NOT VERY INTERESTING? .




[/b]

4Have we not power to eat and to drink?
6Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?  
9For it is written in the[b] law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [/b]
10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.'

Why would Paul quote from the OT to a Gentile church especially regarding supporting they of the gospel?

I have asked what is the 'power over you' he talked about and their right to food and drink. The food and drink, ofcourse, at the expense of the flock.

4Have we not power to eat and to drink?
6Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?  
9For it is written in the[b] law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [/b]
10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.'

Why would Paul quote from the OT to a Gentile church especially regarding supporting they of the gospel?

I have asked what is the 'power over you' he talked about and their right to food and drink. The food and drink, ofcourse, at the expense of the flock.

4Have we not power to eat and to drink?
6Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.'

you initially said the mercy, faith and justice spoken of by Jesus were 'law based'

If you claim that Jesus wanted the Pharisees to teach obedience based based on that scripture, why did you say mercy, faith & justice were 'under the law'

You claim 'sowing' refers to spiritual things only, why did you take 2 Cor. 9:6 out of context then?
You delibrately overlooked 2 Cor 9:1-7.Is the sowing stated there not referring to giving?

yet when Zikky said those laws were not restricted to the Levite priesthood but to Christians, you told him to re-echo it.

REMEMBER THAT MY DISCUSSION TODAY STARTED WITH THE QUOTE BELOW;

Mathew 23:23,

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

OF WHICH I RESPONDED LIKE THIS;
DOES Mathew 23:23(above) BUTRESS YOUR POINT THAT TITHE APPLY TO CHRISTIANS?  CAPITAL NO, WHY?

JESUS IS STRESSING THE 'OBLIGATION THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE LAW' also echoed by paul;
THEN YOU RESPOND TO THAT;

You said Jesus was stressing the 'obligation attached to the law' right? Ok so are you saying that MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE are 'obligations attached to the law' only?.


NOW, BELOW IS ZIGGY'S WHOLE POST;
ZIGGY;

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew. The practice was restricted to the levitical priesthood (as beneficiary). To adhere to Christ command, you'll need to find a Levi priest. Mercy, faith & justice does apply to Christians because they were not restricted to the levitical priesthood. The apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith & justice after the death of Christ.

WHY DONT YOU PICK THIS BELOW THAT RELATES TO OUR DISCUSSION;

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew.


THIS ACT ALONE,YOU WANT TO FORCE ME TO SAY THAT '(YOU DISPLAYED SELECTED MEMORY) IF NOT;

WHY DONT YOU RELATE TO THE ONLY PART THAT RELATES TO OUR TOPIC? IN THAT QUOTE?(mathew 23:23), THAT I, RE QUOTED ABOVE, BECAUSE YOU ASK,

AND THE ONUS OF PROOF,HEREINAFTER MEANS THAT THE 'BURDEN OF PROOF' OR EXTENT OF MY REFERENCE HAS BEEN SATISFIED HERE,BY MY LATER QUOTES OF WHERE I STAND.

SO LETS MOVE ON. I DONT JOIN ISSUES WITH ANYBODY SO DEAL WITH PEOPLE DIFFERENTLY, BUT WHEN YOU ASK ME, I WILL GIVE YOU ''THE EXTENT OF MY INVOLVEMENT WHEN I REFER TO QUOTES'',

So you want me to believe that the Justice that Jesus was requesting from the Pharisees in this case was the 'EYE for an EYE' justice as welll as stoning of children that rebel against their parents?

If he was referring to the 'justice' of OT, why did he not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned?

It is hilarious when you try t explain 'Mercy (under the law). From the scripture that you mentioned, I would have thought you would have used that to define giving to the poor.

Micah 6:8: He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

So before Jesus died, people showed 'under the law' mercy but now we are to show 'under grace' mercy

So you want me to believe that the Justice that Jesus was requesting from the Pharisees in this case was the 'EYE for an EYE' justice as welll as stoning of children that rebel against their parents?

If he was referring to the 'justice' of OT, why did he not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned?

It is hilarious when you try t explain 'Mercy (under the law). From the scripture that you mentioned, I would have thought you would have used that to define giving to the poor.

Micah 6:8: He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

I DONT NEED TO QUOTE YOUR VERSE BECAUSE SINCE IT IS OLD TEST. IT MUST AGREE.BUT FOR EMPHASIS SAKE, I WILL APPLY IT BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SAID BEFORE,AND IT WILL WORK;

YOU WILL SEE THAT IT AGREES WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT;, IF YOU DID NOT BREAK THE RULES HARSHNESS PART DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING WHAT GOD DEMANDED FROM YOU,YOU WILL RECEIVE GODS BLESSING FOR KEEPING YOUR PART,(O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?).BLESSING IS RECEIVED AS A FUNCTION OF YOUR OBEDIENCE UNDER LAW. REVERSE IS ALSO THE CASE WHEN YOU DEFAUT.

JESUS ACTUALLY WANT THE PHARISEE TO 'TEACH PEOPLE THE VALUE OF OBEDIENCE'

So before Jesus died, people showed 'under the law' mercy but now we are to show 'under grace' mercy

THAT IS THE POINT, WHAT CONSTITUTES MERCY(terms,as in terms of agreements) UNDER THE LAW IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT CONSTITUTE MERCY UNDER THE GRACE REMEMBER;
IF A PARTICULAR CONTRACT IS VOIDED OR NULIFIED, THE TERMS OF AGREEMENTS OF THE NEW AGREEMENT[i] MAY ALSO CONTAIN PART, OR A FEW PORTIONS OF THE OLD AGREEMENT TO ALSO FORM NEW TERMS OF AGREEMENT  WITHOUT NECCESARILY 'RE INSTATE' THE NULIFIED OR VOIDED AGREEMENT[/i] IN ANYWAYWHATSOEVER.


THATS WHY 'OFFERING' FOR EXAMPLE HAS CHANGED FROM TANGIBLE FRUIT TO SPIRITUAL THINGS';

Hebrews 13:15

15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.

THIS IS DUE TO THE CHANGE OF THE TERMS OF WHAT CONSTITUTE 'OFFERING'

AND SOWING SEED,UNDER GRACE IS ABOUT IN SPIRIT, LETS APPLY;I.E

''He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.''

DOES THIS  ABOVE STATEMENT SUGGEST '' PUTTING CASH IN CHURCH,IN TURN INCREASE IN THE GIVERS FINANCIAL BUSINESSES''?ACCORDING TO TODAYS CONCEPT OF ''SOW''.
WHAT DO CHRISTIANS ‘SOW’? (is it cash ‘sowing’ for muiltiplication, or ‘sowing’ in spirit that includes generousity)

TO ANSWER THIS LETS SEE WHAT CONSTITUTES THE THE BIBLE AND  CHRIST-ERA 'SOWING' AS USED IN THE BIBLE; Pls read,

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
NOTE,

{a} For he who  ‘’sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption’’,
{b}‘’ he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life’’.

Galatians 5:19-21

{a1}
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[a] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[b] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
{b1}
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

APPLY [a] to[a1]  and [b] to [b1] ANSWERS WHAT CONSTITUTES ‘’SOWING’’ AS USED IN THE PARAGRAPH DURING THE EARLY CHRISTIANS.
NOW,LETS SEE AND EXAMPLE OF A ‘CHEERFUL GIVER’ WHO ‘SOW BOUNTIFULLY AND WAS REWARDED BOUNTIFULLY.
ACTS 9:36-41;

36 At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did. 37 But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. 38 And since Lydda was near Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent two men to him, imploring him not to delay in coming to them. 39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. 40 But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

Mathew 19-21;
Remember the young ruler was told by jesus to,

21, ‘’sell all ye have and distribute to the poor.and have treasures in heaven’’,

JESUS DID NOT ASK HIM TO TITHE OR ‘SOW’ THE CASH PROCEEDS BUT THAT HE SHOULD DISTRIBUTE IT DIRECTLY TO THE POOR,SIMPLE. AND THAT SHOWS ‘SOWING IN ‘SPIRIT OF KINDNESS’ WHICH IS NUMBER 5, OF [b1]above.  


IT AMAZES ME WHEN PEOPLE DONT TALK OF ''GOOD CONCIENCE TOWARDS GOD IN ALL WE DO'',
SOME DONT CARE ''HOW(the process) THEY GOT THEIR MATERIAL RICHES'' BUT(the product matters)TO THEM

THEY CLAIMED IT IS GODS DOING, EVEN IF YOU OBTAIN WEALTH BY 'FRAUD' SO FAR YOU PRAY AND 'SOW' (according to the modern pastor) .

IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO GOD?

OR IS GOD BLIND TO SEE THOSE 'FRAUD' PROCESS?
Questions begging for answers,

'you cant mock God' 'he sees everything'

SUMMARY: CHRISTIANS ‘SOW’ IN SPIRIT(the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.)

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew. The practice was restricted to the levitical priesthood (as beneficiary). To adhere to Christ command, you'll need to find a Levi priest. Mercy, faith & justice does apply to Christians because they were not restricted to the levitical priesthood. The apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith & justice after the death of Christ.

You said Jesus was stressing the 'obligation attached to the law' right?

Ok so are you saying that MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE are 'obligations attached to the law' only?

Of all the 'obligations that applied to the law' Jesus says mercy, faith and justice should be done WITHOUT neglecting tithe.

Or you mean when Jesus died he nailed Mercy, Faith & Justice to the cross along with tithe?

if you confirm to me with scripture that Jesus has done away with mercy, faith and Justice, then you will have enough backing to prove tithe has been done away with, however as long as Jesus said mercy faith and justice should be done along with tithe you cannot seperate them. I await your scriptural backing to that effect.

why then do you do you have an issue when Jesus told the same Pharisees not to neglect tithing?

,

I'v stated my belief of tithing based on the scripture. You guys have a problem with it & made a big issue out of it.

I am an ordained minister.  I have qualified to use the title Certified Professional Money and Finance Minister through the Trinity Institute of Christian Counseling in cooperation with the American Theological Education Association.  This was a special title I requested and applied for as a retired accountant and tax auditor.  To get the title I had so submit a resume showing my education and work experience along with an essay showing how my education, work experience, and life experiences would qualify for me for this title.  Being that my whole career dealt with determining income, distinguishing income from assets, etc., and adding to my work experience my actual experience in teaching finances at a couple churches, along with me filling in for one school year teaching one class at a Seventh-Day Adventist School, my published material on tithing and giving, and I could go on and on.

Oga na 36yrs ago not 26yrs, every other things said; we dey watch ooo.

Can you therefore say with all confidence that they, except perhaps Matthew, never in their lives paid tithes? You know that such would amount to disregarding God's commandments. Where do you think the New Yam Festivals and the likes originated

Can this remark of yours be associated with the will of the Father? Did the Messiah ever speak to His people thus? The apostles were born as children of Israel and they grew up with the Levites and the Temple in their midst. Can you therefore say with all confidence that they, except perhaps Matthew, never in their lives paid tithes? You know that such would amount to disregarding God's commandments. Where do you think the New Yam Festivals and the likes originated?