₦airaland Forum

davidylan:
More ignorant arguments . . .

Indeed John 6:44 does say nothing about "humbling ourselves" . . . but that your argument is EXACTLY the problem with ignorant atheists. You build a mountain on one verse forgetting that other verses include several details that John 6:44 could have omitted.

James 4 says ALMOST EXACTLY the same thing John 6:44 was saying and here is how he puts it in clearer detail - 8 D[b]raw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.[/b] Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

All we get here are a bunch of uneducated rabble rousers.

Nowhere in image123's post does he literarily imply that you have to lift your physical body to God. YOU CANT. What John 6:44 and James 4:8-10 are saying is not to physically lift your hands but to approach God in prayer and genuine repentance. Hyperbole is lost on the ignorant.

I think we are more tired of frauds who come here trying to force their own bias into the bible.

Another meaningless apologetics, I was talking about John 6:44 if you read my post I was precise when i said John 6: 44 never said any such thing. You quickly went ahead and quoted a verse from James, is James what we are talking about or the passage in John? . All we get are a bunch of desperate apologies all the time that don't even address the matter at hand.

davidylan:
More ignorance . . . read James 4 again. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

God has ALREADY paid the price for sin . . . but YOU have to do the accepting FIRST. When you draw nigh to God in repentance . . . then He will draw you to Himself.
Verse 8 does not say - God will draw you whether you draw nigh or not . . . you have to move close OF YOUR OWN FREEWILL.

Again more desperate attempts to say things that the bible does not say. The bible does not mention the word free will if i am correct. If you want to quote verses out of the bible to buttress your point I can as well do the same. There is no such thing as free will in the bible.

Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified

These verses completely tell a different story, it goes against your claim that you have to move close to god of your own free will. It talks about the god of the bible knowing people even before they chose him and having already predestined them to be called and conformed to the image of his son.

Rom 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Here again the bible says a very different thing all together, it says god choses to do what ever he wants to do with people, It clearly says that it depends not on human will or exertion but on god who has mercy because he hardens whomever he wills or has mercy on whom ever he will. This goes completely against the free will agrument because this passages says humans he chose those he wants in him before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and blameless before him. no free will, god decideds to do with them what ever he pleases. Again this goes against what you said that you will have to go near to god first, The bible here clearly says that God choses those he wants to save and those he wants to condem by hardening their hearts according to his own will.

Eph 1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6  to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Again this verse goes against all what you have said about people having to accept Christ because the bible here says that God has already chosen Christians unto him before the foundations of the earth, he had already predestined Christians for adoption as his sons according to the purpose of HIS will not their will. Again here no such thing as FREE WILL

Eph 1:11  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Again these verse goes against what you have said, god has already predestined people unto him according to his will.

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

Joh 6:65  And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

As mazaje said on the other thread  these are very strong "evidence" for Christians since you believe this stuffs then there is no "free will". I am tired of Christians Just cutting and patching bible verses to mean what they want them to mean. I wonder what the verse in John has to do with what another verse in James.

Yehmey:
WHY AM I A CHRISTAIN? THE QUESTION SHOULD BE WHAT SITUATION PROMPTED YOU TO BE A CHRISTAIN. BASICALLY, BEEN A CHRISTAIN IS THE BEST THING THAT CAN EVER HAPPEN TO ANYONE.

Are you sure?

Image123:
@duduspace
you'll not find John6v44 so disturbing or confusing if you're a student of the Word. If you just take the pain to read the book of John complete, you'll find your answers. Its in the same John's gospel that Jesus talks about Searching the scriptures.
John 3:14,15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be LIFTED UP: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Note that word 'lifted up' and turn to John 12v32.
And I, if I be LIFTED UP from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
If you're collected enough, you notice that Jesus says He'll draw all men. All men have been drawn, it is left for each individual to humble himself before God and He'll lift you up. His hands are outstretched while it is called Today, if you respond by stretching your own, He'll lift you up. Thats the 'much touted' free-will we're talking about. It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should COME to repentance. It takes your coming before you can be a christian. It takes your FOLLOWING even after coming. Only followers are true christians.

You see the problem with apologetics is that you will have to keep adding and subtracting when there is NOTHING to add or subtract.  You said all men have been drawn, but they have to humble themselves? That is not what John 6:44 says, that is what YOU are saying. John 6:44 says something else. There is no where in John 6:44 that says you will have to respond by stretching your hands, legs, nose or ears. I don't care about what the verse says or does not say I am tired of Christians saying what the bible does not say to score non existent points. Then again I know that you will come back and tell me that, that's what the "holy spirit" tells you, if ask tell another "holy spirit" filled Christian to interpret the same passage he will interpert it VERY differently.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I think you don't know what it means to draw a person, when you draw someone to something his opinion or actions does NOT matter at ALL.

davidylan:
I am simply going based on the one post Bastage has made here . . . your irrational and aimless wandering all over issues that occurred 32 yrs ago makes no sense to me at all.

If Bastage believes only in the NT God i think he has a right to make that choice. Duduspace has no right to label his belief insane.

Ohh you are the only person that has the right to label his belief insane right? Why did you declear that he was not a Christian even when he told you that he was one? where you not labelling his own christian beliefs as insane when you labelled him an atheist?  you really are one funny sick person.

manmustwac:
How do you know that he wasn't walking on strategically placed pebbles in the river? The whole scene could have been staged.

That is IF it ever happened. Jesus walked on water, where is your evidence? the bible says so

davidylan:
Not only did your own "reasons" make absolutely no shred of sense to me . . . i thought Bastage's actually was more authentic. He is a christian for the simple reason that HE HAS MADE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE to follow the Lord . . . why is that not reason enough?

the fact that he did not outline his myriad of reasons in a 50-page thesis does not mean he had no "apparent reasons".

Bastage ONLY believes in the God of the NT, he doesn't believe in the warrior God of the OT. Are you just here because you want to argue or do you really believe in what you are saying . You have labelled bastage an atheist so many times. You have said so many times that he is not a Christian. Now just because you are having an argument you suddenly decided that HE HAS MADE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE to follow the Lord.  

Okija_juju:
I'm shocked that Christians dont seem to consider their God as being evil.

A God that kills off the entire first borns of Egypt in one night, Drowns the entire world in water, rains fire on an entire civilisation (Sodom and Gomorrah), plays a gamble that cost the lives with the life of his most loyal servant (Job), orders the isrealites to kill off a certian tribe and take their land (Cannaites), e.t.c.

Actually Nothing like that EVER happened. There is NO historical or archeological evidence for most of the claims of the bible. Most of the evil recored in the OT were done by the ancient hebrew men who used their god as a justification, most of the biblical stories that have the hebrew god slaughtering people NEVER happened or where highly  embellished by the ancient jews to make their god look powerful and strong. there was nothing like fiction when the ancient jews wrotemost of their stories down most of what they wrote down were mere fiction which was passed down from one generation to another using oral tradition andmost of the stories were changed as it was passed on to make yahweh look more powerful than all the other gods around.

some of the stories were borrowed from other earlier civilizations and changed to make yahweh look strong and heroic. there is no historical or archeological evidence for most of the wars in the bible(Egypt and other ancient civilizations have historical and archeological evidence formmost of what the ancient Egyptians recorde, but that can not be said about the ancient jews all we have are mere speculations). All the wars were highly embellished or the history was changed. In fact the whole old testament is an embellished epic story of the ancient jews and their hero and warrior god.

If this isnt the definition of evil then I wonder what is.

how do you expect the Christians to agree with you that their heroic yahweh is evil? can't you see that they are happy with the epic tale of yahweh and his chosen men? Imagine Africans calling Abraham their father because the bible says so?

jagunlabi:
[b]The bible never claimed an age for planet earth,[/b]folks.This is just misperception of what is in the book.We need to be fair sometimes to that book while we continue to critique it.

The bible never did.

JeSoul:
Toneyb & Bindex
I'm sure you lovely fellas feel passionately about the subject but please re-submit your perceived grievances against God and bible when you can be somewhat objective in a discussion.

I dont feel passionatley against this subject, you said that the OT god does not feel happy when he kills people and i just pointed that to be a very wrong statement using the bible.

Psalms 137: 8-9 "O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

.

So there it is again for you.

The problem a lotta people have reconciling the supposed contradicting nature of the God of the OT and NT is simple: we have this twisted idea that God should be all love and never angry. That He should be only dishing out good but never "evil" as in punishment for wrong doing. And when this made-up round God doesn't fit into the square bible we then proceed to declare Him "evil" or "non-existent".

Only that the OT god goes around killing people that commited no wrong at all. What did the babies do wrong? There are passages in the bible where the OT god tells his chosen men to kill entire cities just because a few of the people living in the cities entice his chosen men and tell make them serve other gods. I should expect a just god to kill only the culprits(by the way when has worshipping other gods become a crime that deserves the death penalty, you guys don't ever accept the same explanations for the moslems do you?)

I would feel zero remorse if I killed a man who was trying to murder my mother or father, or if I stopped a rapist from destroying a young child, or towards the suicide bomber on death row who killed innocent people.

The only problem is that your god told his chosen men to, rape women, murder the parents of others and steal their properties and i will be happy to provide bible verses for you.

Abuzola:
Bravo boy, is simple as that, which kind stupid grace ? if so then we ve contradiction in d bible

Shut up you slave of Allah.

pilgrim.1:
'NO religion' - including atheistic religions, yes? In other words, even atheistic religions were borne out of fear, no?

Atheistic religions  . Sure I agree that all religions are borne out of the fear of people including atheistic religions like  communism.

Okay, your say. Now, atheists with atheistic religions can quit worrying from their own fears.

Most atheist do not have a religion.

JeSoul:
This is not a God who is bored and starts wacking innocent people just to show off. The bible even says God hates the death of the evil man.

The bible also says that he loves wacking innocent people.

Then the LORD said to me, "Son of man, give the people this message from the LORD: A sword is being sharpened and polished.  It is being prepared for terrible slaughter; it will flash like lightning!  Now will you laugh?  Those far stronger than you have fallen beneath its power!  Yes, the sword is now being sharpened and polished; it is being prepared for the executioner!  "Son of man, cry out and wail; pound your thighs in anguish, for that sword will slaughter my people and their leaders – everyone will die!  It will put them all to the test! So now the Sovereign LORD asks: What chance do they have?  "Son of man, prophesy to them and clap your hands vigorously.  Then take the sword and brandish it twice, even three times, to symbolize the great massacre they will face!  Let their hearts melt with terror, for the sword glitters at every gate.  It flashes like lightning; it is polished for slaughter!  O sword, slash to the right, and slash to the left, wherever you will, wherever you want.  I, too, will clap my hands, and I will satisfy my fury.  I, the LORD, have spoken!"   (Ezekiel 21:8-17)

The OT god is very happy when he kills people, he even claps his hands in happiness when he kills. As tonneyb has said you can quote passages that talk about the OT god not happy with killing people and i can also quote verses from the OT which says he is VERY happy to kill unbelievers.

The LORD answered: Because they have abandoned my law, which I set before them, and have not followed it or listened to my voice, but followed rather the hardness of their hearts and the Baals, as their fathers had taught them; therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: See now, I will give them wormwood to eat and poison to drink.  I will scatter them among nations whom neither they nor their fathers have known; I will send the sword to pursue them until I have completely destroyed them.   (Jeremiah 9:12-15)

Those killed by the sword are far better off than those who die of hunger, wasting away for want of food.  Tenderhearted women have cooked their own children and eaten them in order to survive the siege.  But now the anger of the LORD is satisfied.  His fiercest anger has now been poured out.  He started a fire in Jerusalem that burned the city to its foundations. (Lamentations 4:9-11)

The OT god's anger is only satisfied when he spills the blood of unbelivers(mostly innocent women and children). so you are VERY wrong when you say that the bible says otherwise. For every bible passage that you quote to show that the OT god is good there are many more as toneyb has said that say otherwise. He is even happy that women eat their children because of hunger.

The god delusion is not an excellent book.

JeSoul:
Since all most atheists on NL do is copy and paste and reiterate the same arguements and points of contention . . . I will copy and paste and reiterate the same answers many of us christians have given to you. No be only una sabi ctrl+c and ctrl+v.

For starters go to this most recent thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-273481.0.html David & Bobbyaf discussed on the OT. Search my sister Pilgrims name, she has discussed with more detail on several OT topics than anyone can handle. No need for repetition.

When someone comes up with a fresh perspective or issue or question, it shall be deserving of a fresh response.

You have not responded in any way, all you guys do is give excuses that MAKE no sense for example, Christians go around haranguing the prophet of Islam for marrying a 9year old girl, no matter how the moslems explain Christians never buy what ever the moslems say. But the same Christians have forgotten that their own father Abraham was an incestuous person. Christians give explanations like Ohh in those days God allowed incest because he wants the tribe or blood of the tribe to be strong. as if that is an answer. Who tells you guys that in the days of mohammed pedophilia was a crime? I hear Christians say that Allah ordered the indiscriminate killings of people in the Koran, but the OT god did the same thing too. I respect the Muslims for one thing, they own up to the koran more than Christians own up to the bible.

Christians always give ridiculous excuses for the very embarassing parts of the bible by saying "Ohh the passage is not meant to be taken literally or "it is an allegory" as if that is a sincere explanation. When faced with those embarassing parts of the bible the answers are always "ohh that is the old testament". that is not an answer because why did the OT god give out very sexist laws? why did he tell people to steal? why did he encourage people to tell lies? why did he tell people to kill their family members for no reason at all?

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29)

Then again Christians go around trying to sell the same OT god as a good, just, merciful and loving god .

I am the LORD, I change not. therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”Malachi 3:6
James 1:17: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

As toneyb said on the other thread what evidence is there for its truthfulness of Malachi 3:6 and James 1:17 when we have the bible God changing his position all over the bible?

the same bible says that his OT laws were perfect.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple

Jagunlabi says it best when he said that most modern christians are already regretting that the early christian fathers did not take the lead of Marcion and barnished this ancient albatros of a deity from their holy texts. Even Christian apologist lwhen debating the existence god begin by saying that they are not here to debate the OT morality there are just there to debate the existence of god.

duduspace:
You have a point, Chris is an agnostic atheist (he beleives God doesn't exist but also beleives yu can't prove a negative) while my belief system runs the gauntlet from weak agnosticism through Apathetic agnosticsm to ignosticism (I don't know if god exists and atimes don't even feel the question is relevant).

@blackspade
Another option is to convince yourself that God exists and set out to find him on your own like m_nwankwo

I guess that is what most people are doing these days.

JeSoul:
Lol . . . is this what atheists tell themselves to cajole themselves into believing christians 'avoid' the OT?

Through out my life as a Christian no body has ever told me that the god of the OT accepts human sacrifice.

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice.  Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar!  This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David.  On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you."  (1 Kings 13:1-2)

He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them.  Finally, he returned to Jerusalem.  King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant."  There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah.  This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign.  Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah.  He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple.  Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses.  And there has never been a king like him since.  (2 Kings 23:20-25 )

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground.  There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby.  This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there.  They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish.

The bible even acknowledge that the chosen men of Yahweh attacked a town that was peaceful and secure, killed all the people and took over their land, their only reason was that the other people worshipped a different god. As toneyb has said why not preach to them why kill them and burn off their town? these passages are NEVER mentioned in churches. There are SO many Christians that do not know that such passages exist in the "Holy" bible.

The old testament god sends a lion to kill a man because he refused to beat up another man.

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!"  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me."  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.    (1 Kings 20:35-36 )

Yahew the advocate of racism, death, slavery and more death. Why not preach to them? why kill them?

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you.  When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them.  Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy.  Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters.  They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods.   Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you.   (Deuteronomy 7:1-4)

Religion is a very sweet delusion as some one pointed out on the other thread. The face of Christians turn red when they hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but they don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies in the OT or the elimination of entire ethnic groups including innocent women and children. The old testament God advocates lies, rape, slavery and murder.

Religion thrives on fear. Without fear there will be NO religion. all religions were created out of the fear of the many and the cleverness of a few.

davidylan:
If by "ridiculous" you mean bible-based FACTUAL ANSWERS that unfortunately do not affirm your pre-existing bias, then so be it.

This was not directed at me but let me jump in here. The question is not whether there are reasons or not. the question is whether those reasons are good, justified and founded on rational basis. You begin with your own bias that the bible is the word of God and hence it is true. As Mazaje said on the other thread the bible was written by human beings, so you have NO examples of a god giving any moral commands to any body. All you have is an ancient society deciding what actions are anti-social, or social and ancient humans deciding what actions are humane and inhumane, acceptable and unacceptable and ascribing it to their god like every other society that have a god do.

We don't know what state of mind these people were in when they wrote what ever they wrote, we don't know how they distorted the facts to make them look good. I don't believe in any god but lets assume that I do, any God that does what the Old testament God did is an evil God. By the way Just as toneyb has noted the Old Testament God admitted that he did evil and he apologized for it.

"Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, to whom you sent me to offer your prayer: If you remain quietly in this land I will build you up, and not tear you down; I will plant you, not uproot you; for I regret the evil I have done you."(Jeremiah 42:9-10)

davidylan:
Can you ever be truly "happy" as an atheist? Believe you me at some point i started to ignore the church, packed my bibles neatly somewhere and tried to move on with a life without rules . . . turned out to be the saddest periods of my life.

I am MOST happy now that I am an atheist, You see you have a very big problem with linking atheism with wrong doing. The greatest atheist and secular nations like Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Finland and Belgium to name a few happen to be the countries with lowest recorded cases of, voilence, rape, abortion, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy,low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income and gender equality. They also have some of the highest life expectancy and record some of the lowest level of diseases. That is why I say that religion is a sweet delusion. why are you a good person? are you a good person because of the fear of an invisible deity or are you a good person because you know that doing good it self is good? So because you are battling with the bible you then feel that you should start going around doing bad things? Is the bible the only thing that is making you a good person? You don't need any god or religion to be good 90percent of the people in Sweden do not believe in God and they are by FAR better than the 90 percent of Nigerians who believe in god. In fact the Swedish people remain the best people I know.

It all depends on how you define "happiness". The bible says extremely little about happiness, it focuses MOSTLY on JOY because both are clearly NOT the same. You can be happy for a fleeting moment but have no joy in you. Having fun is not the same as being happy.

What Joy is the bible talking about here? Happiness to me means satisfaction and the peace that comes with life. If there is any Joy or happiness as the bible promises you will expect Christian nations to filled with the most happy people or people who feel the most positive about their lives but that is not the case. Yahoo released a list of World's Happiest Places Which is a list of countries where people feel most happy and positive about their lives and almost all the countries happen to be atheist and secular countries.

blackspade:
My whole family believes in god and I do too, but recently (as in the last few months) I've been questioning myself with things such as: does god exist? what if religion is just one of the worlds longest running fairytales? why are there so many contradictions in the bible? am I wasting my time worshipping something I can't see? is christianity just a mechanism used by europeans to spread their idealogy and culture?

I was once in your shoes and I cried bitterly when I realized it was all a farce. If you feel that lack of belief is going to make you misrable then pls go ahead and keep believingm your hapiness is all that matters, do what ever will make you happy , if believing in a god is what will bring you happiness then try and be around people that will strengthen your beliefs. Your happiness matters most.

I want to believe in god, and recognize some of the things in life that we can't explain, and can only be explained by god, but sometimes I just don't know. I've been feeling a little depressed lately, so maybe that has something to do with it, I don't know. What the hell is wrong with me? Am I just going through a phase?

You have all ready presupposed that there is a god, as for me i am more than comfortable with my atheism and it gives me FAR more joy and happiness than when i was a believer. Your happiness is what matters most.

toneyb:
How do you expect the US Vs THEM divide to survive if the believers do not have a "heaven" full of goodies waiting for them and the unbelievers have a "hell" full of suffering to go to? how do you expect people to stay in line without a concept that will keep them in great fear as long as they live? hell is a perfect invention to keep people in line and in constant fear of the unknown.

The thing that's so horrible about it is that many of these people have bought so heavily into this concept of Heaven and an afterlife peopled by their dead friends and relatives that they actually do deep down despise this life, and are looking forward to what they genuinely believe will be coming after. They don't care if the world blows up- deep down they really don't. While it's not discussed in mixed company, this hatred of the human race has been at the core of christianity since its first mentions in the pages of historyI happen to love this life- it's beautiful, intricate- fascinating. We get to learn as much as we can absorb in a lifetime, we get to create, learn, play, teach- whatever we want to do. We get as much freedom as we take for ourselves, there really is no attending agent.

It's really okay that we've been praying to ourselves all along. In the end, we're not all that bad, and that's what we're really afraid of, isn't it? We're afraid that if you cracked open the worth of a human being you'd find complete rot- so we assume we need salvation. I think the truth will turn out to be that we're not that bad, maybe we're even over the 51% for being decent. Steven Pinker gave a compelling lecture at TED that we're getting significantly nicer as a species- back in the time much of the bible was written, a man had a 60% likelihood of dying at the hand of another man in war or violence. Today, that has shrunk to 6%, despite our war machines and "evil leaders", war and violence only lead to 6% of total deaths. Wow.

There really is nothing to fear but fear itself. those who capitalise on other people's fears are really the bad guys.

Very interesting thoughts Toneyb.

davidylan:
you're the one making a mockery of yourself and your intellect dude, not me.

You keep making a fool of yourself.

Thou fool . . . the old testament God addressed King Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel, King Belteshazzar in the book of Daniel, even Cyrus the king of the medes and Persians. There are prophecies in Jeremiah to non-Jewish kings and lands too. Was Jonah not sent to the men of Nineveh to repent? where they jews?

Try reading before opening your gob.

You quoted a verse from Ezra which had nothing to do with the gentiles and i asked if the OT God was referring to the gentiles in that passage only for you to come up with the mythologies of daniel, Jonah and Nebuchadnezzar, I guess we don't even see things the same way. These are stories that have NO historical backing. How do you expect me to take you as a serious person when you believe the writing of medieval people that know nothing about gastric juices? if they did they would not have written about Jonah surviving inside a fish for 3 days. I wonder why these things only happen when men were primitive and less aware of how the world operates.

Urgh . . . more of the same revisionist drivel.

The story of Jonah surviving inside a fish for 3 days is what?

What utter stupidity. The "world authorities on NT studies" where there when the book of Mark was written i suppose? They have so much "authority" that they are yet to help us out with who exactly wrote the book of Mark?

I thought you were once all over the place arguing that the disciples of Jesus wrote the new testament? Thanks to their deep research we now know that the authors are unknown.

Lets (for the sake of tolerating these fools) assume that Mark 16:15 was a fraudulent addition . . . was this also appended by a scribe too?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

More evidence of the shallow knowledge of these idiots . . . i used KJV all throughout. Want me to send you a printscreen of those verses showing the bible version i used? I will if you ask for it.

OK let me make my final point. Mark which was the first gospel that was written was written about 40 years after the events it narrated and it does not have Jesus telling people to go and preach to the gentiles. The so called great commission was a later addition, the gospel of Matthew which was written about 55 years after the event it narrated was based on mark but with other additions, the gospel of John was written about 65 years after the events it narrated. These gospels were not written by the disciples of Jesus, they were written by very educated Greek speaking Christians who got their stories from oral tradition form Christians that were trying to convert people into their new religion. All the Gospels were written in line with the letters of Paul. Paul's letters predate all the gospels. The gospels were written in line with Paul's teachings about Jesus whom he NEVER meet in person. The gospels were written by believers who wanted to convert people mostly the gentiles based on the teachings of Paul who was not even an original disciples of Jesus. I don't know why i am even arguing with people that believe that evil spirits or deities cause disease or that a man can survive inside a fish for 3 days.

I notice that you like calling people brianless, Can you use your brain and the knowledge of science you have aquired and explain to us how imaginary deities inflict people with diseases like leprosy? deluded slowpoke.

davidylan:
I will only restrict myself to pointing out the blindingly obvious stupidity in much of the baseless anti-God rants. no point having a verbal spar with brainless trolls.

1. Ez 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

2. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3. Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preacin line with Pauls teachings toh the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Was John 3:16 also appended by a scribe? Fools.

What is this? . Why do you keep making a fool of your self? was the OT god addressing the gentiles in the book of ezra? .
You should expect the gospel of John which was written about 65 years after the death of Jesus in line with the teachins of Paul to include that part how else will the founders of the new faith attract gentiles in to the faith without including John 3:16 since that was their main aim?
Mark 16: 15 was a later addission, your fellow Christian apologist like William lane Criag and Gary Habermas who know very much about the new testament history, and who are also world authorities on new testament studies all agree that it was a later addission even the writers of the NIV included it in their footnote as a later addision by a scribe because it is not found in the earliest manuscipts of the new testament available. That verse goes against the teachings of Jesus who warned his disciples not to preach to the gentiles but to the Jews alone. I noticed you did not use your favourite KJV, because it is vague

Bobbyaf:
@ ToneyB

I think you're holding on to straws. The bible is not one of those books that one can merely read on the surface and expect to understand, and worse yet, pretend to understand. Some of the issues you have raised have to do with the acts of God that are a mystery to those of you who have resisted listening to His voice.

God has ultimate control of the affairs of men. You may not always understand why He does what He does because you have not been taught the rudiments of systematic theology. You're just one lone shooter who believes he is qualified to join the army. You're like a man playing back-yard cricket who gets good at it and feels he deserves to play on the professional cricket team.

Can you use the rudiments of systemic theology to explain why the Morals and behaviour of The OT God kept Changing despite him saying that he never changes and that his laws are perfect? Mazaje said it best on the other thread God works in mysterious was = I have no idea. You guys use that line to fill up the gaps.

davidylan:
Pretty much the same reason i chose to go to bed rather than waste time bandying words with a deluded band of militant atheists.

Why did your God kept evolving as the morals of his people evolved? Is it not written that his Law were perfect? You still hold unto the primitive belief that imaginary deities cause disease and you call others deluded? Allah is a killer God but not Jehovah of the OT You guys are very confused.

Bindex and "facts"? you mean the stuff you read up on wikipedia and other anti-god websites that serve simply to advance your own irrational and atheist logic?

No, facts that i get from reading the books of leading authorities on the New testament form historians and Christian apologist alike like William lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Barh Erhman, Richard Carrier and a lot of other New Testament Scholars out there(both Christian and non Christian). By the way I noticed that you use wikipedia to show Moslems how the history of the Koran is wrong. Wikipedia is only correct when the hypocrite and
shameless davidylan is using it to debunk islamic assertion else wikipedia is an anti-God site. I noticed that you quickly use wikipedia and never complain that it is an anti-Allah site You are a disgrace.

Pls produce concrete evidence for this. Its amazing you would make so many claims with NOT A SINGLE LINK TO BACK IT UP.

These  are from Christian apologist websites that know the history of the gospels, Jesus died some where around 30 AD, and they all agree that The gospels were written long after his death. Thy also agree that the gospels were written after pauls letters.

Dating Paul's letters:

The Gospels were all written after Paul's letters !

the Crucifixion occured around 30 A.D.

Paul's conversion occured around 32 A.D.

Paul's first meeting with the apostles in Jerusalem occured around 35 A.D. ( Acts 9:26)

Paul's ministry probably began in the 40's A.D.

Paul's letter were probably written in the 50's A.D.

Conclusion: Paul's letter were written in a very short 20 years after Christ's resurrection - within the lifetime of many many many eyewitnesses - favorable and unfavorable ones.

Dating the Gospels: When were they written ?

The standard scholarly dating, even in very liberal circles (i.e., those that reject Christianity) is:

Mark was written around 70 AD
Matthew and Luke were written around 80 AD
John was written around 90 AD

http://www.ichthus.info/CaseForChrist/01/intro.html

http://jesus.christ.org/16/when-was-the-gospel-of-john-written

1 John 3 (not written by Paul) talks about sin and the law.

Did you say something about "facts"?

Did you bother to read my first post? The epistle of 1 John was written long after Paul wrote his letters, It was written by an unknown writer who wrote based on Paul's teachings. You will not agree with that but that remains the fact.

They were under the law of sin and death too.

You're mixing two things together in your own shameless ignorance. The Judaic law is NOT the same as the spiritual law of sin and death. Gentiles were not under Judaic laws but were under the universal law of sin and death if not Christ's death would only apply to jews!

Oh say something about "facts" again.

Who made that declaration about the gentiles being under the. spritual law of sin and death? Paul did, Jesus never said any such thing. Jesus warned his disciples not to preach to the gentiles and said he was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel. The so called great commission at the end of Mark was later added by a scribe because it does not appear in the earliest manuscript, even the NIV acknowleges that fact in its footnote.

rich_john:
Just like today men of god today prophesies lies and so it was in those days, I HEAVILY DOUBT IT if it were God telling the isrealites to go and wipe out entire communities, commiting all sorts of crime against humanity, segregation, slavery and all sorts of evil because they were doing abominations in his sights! sabi he's not willing that any should perish abi?
Take achan's story for example how can GOD be happy that an entire lineage is wiped off! was it achan's wife that stole? was it his children? yet God said they should be stoned to death NA BIG LIE no be God. since it wasnt God speaking directly to the isrealites (ofcourse it'll be through human beings i.e prophets) there's high probability human prophesy will be more than God's. There's nothing like OT and NT God never changes
Bible stories are very tough to belief, most of these stories were orally transferred to offsprings and you know how rumuors change. Bible stories are outrageous and too ambigious to believe

The OT God told the Jews to do all those things according to the bible. I used to be a part of a bible study group back in the days. Usually, after everyone arrives at the scheduled time we would all stand in a circle and hold hands with our heads bowed and our eyes closed so tight then the leader of the bible study group will tell us to open our minds and our hearts to your message through Jesus Christ blah blah blah. Then we' will all sit down, open our bibles and read the next chapter in the bible from where we last left off. We looked and sounded like a bunch of ogre-sized primary school kids taking turns reading a paragraph each. We started from the book of genesis down to the last book. Every body took turns interpreting what the passages meant to them or what they thought it meant. Everybody skipped over the nasty parts of the bible like they were invisible, no one discussed the killings, rape, murder, infanticided, slavery, stoning to death of disobedient children, sexist laws, human scarifice, bashing of babaies against rocks, ripping and opening pregnant women, taking the virgins and what not. We all pretended as it it wasn't there. It was a very lame excercies whenever i remmeber it

@ Abuzola

Kai ka hauka che ko? do you know what Pedophilia is?

duduspace:
I do question the characters of the forum moderators as their decisions sometimes border on the incredulous, why should anyone close that thread?

@Bindex
so nice to see yu back and contributing again, relocated yet?

Hey Duduspace, How you dey? Yeah I left Naija since febuary, I am now in a flying school here in Belgium. Had to leave the Nysc(made some arrangements. you know how we do it in Niaja ) when the oppurtunity for the flying school came my way. Nice to hear from you after a long while. Hope you are doing good out there?