₦airaland Forum

Tudör:
There's already a living faith thread on this forum,go and manifest there. . .
Where's that incompetent moderator to move this thread.the only thing he/she/it knows how to do is to lock good threads like 'has the religion forum changed your beliefs' sheer incompetence!

davidylan:
another absurd, baseless allegation. Presented WITHOUT facts . . . and without the slightest attempt to read through the bible to find out the truth. If any, Paul was the only one of the apostles who relied heavily on the old testament. Hebrews for example contains tons of old testament analogies.

Lets get some facts striaght here, Pauls letters were written long before any of the gospels, his letters were written about 25 years after the alleged death of Jesus. While Mark the first gospel was written about 35 to 40 based on oral tradition and stories told by christians wo wanted to convert people to their new religion years after the events it narrated. The gospel of John which i alluded to was not written by John the illetrate disciples of Jesus, the gospel of John was the last gospel that was written and it was written about 60-65 years after the events it narrated, the gospel of John was written by a highly educated greek speaking Christian not the illeterate fisherman Aramaic disciple of Jesus.  It was Paul who did away with the Law with tortured arguments about being dead to the Law. The funny thing is that Paul didn't even need to make the silly arguments that he did. The Law was created for Jews and he preached mostly to Gentiles who weren't under the Law to begin with.

but of course dont let facts get in the way of your own myopia.

It was Paul who first pointed out the corollary between Christ's death and the Jewish passover instituted in. the old testament. It was Paul who talked the serpent in the wilderness being a symbol of Christ's crucifiction. It was Paul who tied the ancient Jewish priesthood and its rites to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross . . .

Paul was preaching to the gentiles when he made that corollary, he wasn't preaching to the Jews was he? After all, he was teaching them a religion based on the God of Israel. Those pesky Hewbrew laws were bound to come up. With a little hand-waving he was able to do away with that concern. he did away with the laws of circumcision that was very important to the Jews, dietary laws and other very important old testament laws. Faith and grace were what he taught instead of works which were taught about by Jesus and also in the OT.

1Co 11:25  In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the[b] new covenant[/b] in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

2Co 3:6  who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Co 3:14  But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.

Jesus never mentioned anything about a "new" covenant.

Nah . . . you can keep on blabbing your same old discredited talking points.

I personally do not like engaging people like you any more, My initial reponse was to Toneyb but your post deserves a response, you have never discredited any of my points.

davidylan:
In those days it was permitted for men to marry from within their extended family to protect the bloodline. Isaac talks about it in Gen 28:1-3

for instance Jacob married his cousins - Laban was his uncle.

Not quite sure that you get the issue here.  You didn't actually discuss the relativity the guy was implying.  If it used to be very OK to have incestuous relationships since the god of Abraham approved of it, and then it later became a punishable offence that deserves stoning to death. if that is the case then morality is relative to your place and time, something Christians always claim is not true.  If the morality of incest is determined just on what God says, then morality is arbitrary.  Correct?

"God has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved and he was invariably found on the side of those in power."  (Robert Ingersoll)

oyb:
the duplicity of these militant Christians has no limits. this from the same people started an old thread knocking Muslims on cousin marriage. 

Hmmmm  davidyalan keeps making a fool of himself all the time, he keeps throwing things around looking for what ever might stick. Here he is trying to justify the incestuous acts of his father Abraham by saying that in those days it was OK to have incestuous sexual relationship  only to run to the Islamic thread and accuse Moslems of the same act his father Abraham engaged in. The problem is that he gets angry when we call him a deluded and ridiculous fool.

exactly where in the bible have all these things been officially/ explicitly revoked, if i may ask? or is it as usual by personal inference and interpretation?

Every passage in the bible is opened to self interested interpretation by men, so what do you expect?

@ toneyb

I have been going through your post and I like most of them, The reason the Old Testement is not highly regarded by many Christians is due to Paul, not Jesus. Paul was a smart man. He knew he could attract many more people to his religion if he cut out all of those bothersome commandments. So he substituted "faith" in its place. The idea caught on, and someone wrote the gospel of John, which no longer required one to keep commandments and give up their possessions to obtain eternal salvation. Instead, all you had to do is "believe" (John 3:16). That is the biggest reason Christianity is the most popular.It is the easiest club to get into when you stop thinking for yourself.

Abuzola:
@Moderator, i know is because of those blasphemy u locked it, i don't want to avenge just look at tudor want to ignitie

Must you always reason with violence? Did you not insult the Christians and the bible? delusion at its peak.

Moderator why did you lock the thread?

Abuzola:
Genesis 19:31-38 LOT had sex with his two daughters and even bored him children, who says so THE CORRUPTED BIBLE

Did you own "holy" prophet not marry a 9 year old child?   did he not take the wife of his nephew? So the bible is corrupted but the koran is not?delusion at its best .

Abuzola:
@Questionaire, the center of christianity is the cross just like it was logically said in 1 Corinthian 15:14

Just as the Ka'bah is the centre of Islam
الكعبة al-Kaʿbah Miracle of Kaaba

Abuzola:
Here is another cross worshipper with an ill attack, Muhammad forbade the worship of moon so u are a fabricator

Where did Jesus tell his followers to worship the cross? .

Abuzola:
Change belief ke it rather embolden my belief when i see the worshippers of d cross copying and pasting irrelevancy

Who is this You worship the Ka'aba, half Moon and the star and you believe you are better? your copy and paste Arabic irrelevancy and believe that you hold a  better belief? by the way which moon did Mohammed divided into two with the help of Allah?  

toneyb:
We can never know God, he is ineffable,but it never stops a theist from trying to explain. The theist says we can not know who God is but he spends most of his time explaining to people who his God is so funny.

This is really funny. Its a mystery that you can never understand but the theist keeps on trying to explain it all the time. . Some say that we have a closed heart and a close mind. Others use the free will argument which means that God gave humans free will even though there is no such word in the bible. Moslem are the most delusional you just have to believe by force even when they have no arguments, just believe or die.

toneyb:
Another thing the religion section has taught me is that the theist just throw words around no matter how senseless they sound like

"Jesus loves you" which is the perfect answer in any awkward situation - which apparently negates any rational question, criticism, or thoughts. Jesus loves you end of story accept it or rot in hell .

"Allahu Akbar" (substitute for: "we don't understand what you said but we all agree and our agreement sounds impressive doesn't it!?"

"It's a mystery" (shut up your face stupid - no more questions). The bible and God are both mystery that can never be understood, they don't require logic and rational thoughts leave logic and rational thoughts in science labs and schools. The bible requires 100 percent faith.(no matter how illogical its assertions are).

God operates in mysterious ways. If only God could release the memos that detail how effective the mysterious ways were  . During the time that I attended church, whenever I questioned any of the atrocities that were initiated by God like God telling people to tell lies or steal and the unprovoked killing of the women and children of the Canaanite, The Jebusites ,(All the non Jews that lived close to the Jews) and all the other meaningless slaughter that were commanded by God in the bible of innocent babies and other people I was looked at pitifully and told that God was love but He was also a just God.Whatever that meant. As if killing babies for crimes they never committed was justice. I still find it hard to believe how people associate the God of the old testament with love.

Nairaland Religion section, hmmmm its is a lovely place to be if you want to laugh and see the definition of hypocrisy. Any way nairaland shows that religion is a very sweet delusion.

georgecso:
[size=14pt]@ Bindex ( New Deedat)

You are stating abi? Bros your statement are just too empty for me to reply you. Why wasting your energy posting and writing empty and biased statements? Bros l respect your opinion because its not easy to think like you. [/size]

I am no Deedat (to hell with that Islamofascist who believes that all Christains need to be killed).

~Lady~:
[b]Yes Israel is now the Church, there are twelve tribes of Israel, all of which after centuries were diminished. Jesus chose 12 disciples to parallel the 12 tribes of Israel. This wasn't a coincidence.[/b]Jacob is the Patriarch of Israel, he actually is Israel of the Old Testament, his name was changed to Israel and he had 12 sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus is the Patriarch of Israel, he actually is the Israel of the New Testament, he had 12 disciples, the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus the New Israel, Body of Christ the Church, The Church Israel.

If Jesus was trying to rebuke the canaanite woman he wouldn't have healed her daughter. Also take note of the words used by Jesus, when Jesus was speaking of dogs, back then they had house dogs, and they were fed after the children were fed, what the children refused to eat went to the dogs. Remember above when I said, Jesus sent his disciples to the Jews first and then to the gentiles, when the Jews rejected his message he sent his message to the gentiles.

Haba ahhh ,OK I hear you, I am now a Christian. Praise the Lord somebody. Lady keep it up.

No what I was doing is showing you that you don't just pick one verse of the Bible and run with it, you look at it collectively, what does it tell you about the gentiles. You can't have one verse that says don't go to the gentiles and another that says you will be a light to the gentiles, the only conclusion that can be gotten is that at the beginning when he said he was to the house of Israel he meant to them first and then when they rejected him his message will go to the gentiles, and even at that, it still stands that the Church is the New Israel.

OK I agree. The Church is the New Isreal? Which of the Church(bodies of Christ as you guys love to put it)? The over 30,000 sects or bodies? Nice try.

According to them and us, they do not believe Jesus to be the messiah, for two reasons, they expected Mary to be of the house of Judah, David, Joseph was of the house of David and so is Mary and Jesus by marriage and adoption. People considered Jesus a son of David, they didn't know he was of a virgin birth. Mary and Joseph were married when Jesus was born. SO he's of the house of David. Also because they think the messiah will be on earth physically for forever.
But everything else still stands. Ask the Jews for Jesus and they'll tell you.

Are you the one to tell the Jew what is inside their Bible(Tanakh)? They have their Original hebrew bible to show. What do you have? The Septuagint that is riddled with mistranslation and delibrate mischaracterization of some passages?

There are also non-christian sources that show that Jesus was killed. We've provided it to the muslims too many times, they turn a blind eye to it, hopefully you won't do the same. Here are the sources:

Tacitus:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired

It is really hard to find their writings online, but another one is seutonius, and verellius (think that's how it's spelt), but will research more for their books outside of the internet and get the information to you. The Jewish Talmud is also a good source. Why do I choose these sources? Because they speak negatively about Christians and boast about killing the man the christians called God.

If you notice Tacitus refers to it as a "most mischievous superstition," not really suggesting that he is stating something he considers fact here. I said there is no where in history where Jesus narrative was reported as it is in the bible(or other books that were banned from the bible). Tacitus did not report that Jesus was killed according to how it was written in the bible did he? Tacitus offers no source to corrobaorate any of the things written about Jesus in the bible, other than Christian troublemakers. He's like one of the atheist members of this board making a comment about Jesus being a hippy and an insurgent. Quoting him in favour of proving the events of the bible  is like you quoting one of us because we mentioned what Christians believe in.So all this passage offers us is a statement about Christianity by somoene who believes its false and lived long after the supposed time of Jesus. ie. it proves nothing beyond the fact that Romans didn't like Christians.

As for the Talmud we have a passage in the Talmud that says a man named Yeshua was hanged for sorcery. It's not Jesus of the Bible, then, is it? Let's be honest here. Yeshua was a VERY common name in Judea. This is like saying there was a man named John, who lived in England and was hanged for sorcery, sometime in the middle ages. Chances are, it was probably true, simply based on the name being so blinking common!. Talmud doesn't say anything about this man claiming to be the son of God or rising from the dead, either. He was hanged and went bye-bye.All the other sources like Josephus,  Pliny the Younger etc never made mention of any of the stories of the bible, they only talked about Christains as followers of a man called Jesus. By the way most of their accounts were written about 100-200 years after the alleged death of Jesus.

There are extra ordinary things said about Jesus in the bible. Feeding 5 thousand people with 2 fish and 5 bread, raising the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine, killing of babies when he was born by king Herod, healing of the sick, the veil of the temple was torn in two accompanied by an earthquake when he was crucified, There was darkness in the whole of the land for 3 hours (Mid day darkness) when Jesus was crucified, many dead bodies of Jewish saints in Jerusalem were also resurrected and walked around the city for people to see when Jesus ressurected. Yet there is NO account of this ANYWHERE in the world(even though the people were known for keeping record of events) except in the bible. Doesn't this strike you as odd? Nobody except the writers of the gospel bothered to write about any of this extra ordinary events? Even the gospels were written 40-100 years after all the alleged events took place.

Because the 12 tribes of Israel is now the Church. Are you even listening or do you just want to argue of arguments sake? Because I will leave this topic, if that's the case. You've proven time and time again that you don't want to learn, so why should anyone even bother with you?

OK  so the church is now the 12 tribes of Israel eh? The question now is which of the Church? But then again I won't be here to reply to your post. This is going to be my last post on the NL religion section, I will be going back to Sweden on Sunday to be with my atheist friends. So now I will leave you guys to keep debating the basic principles of Christainity and Islam. Piss on Allah, Mohammed his messenger, Jesus, Jehovah and all the other Gods of Men out there.

@ Janssen
The problem with apologies is that you will have to keep doing it till you die to keep you in your circle of delusion. You copied the opinions of a writer that simply twisted the truth to decieve himself and the people that will not want to agree that the writers of the gospel were not eye witness to what was written in the bible. They coundn't even get the time of Jesus' crucifixtion which happens to be the most important even in the whole of the bible right. You just copy and pasted the writting of a person that will prefer to tell a lie than to admit that he is not sure.

Janssen:
The Roman times of day, are just as English Time, the Third Hour would be literally the Third Hour, from 12am (3am). The Jewish Day starts at about Evening of one day (about 6pm or so), to the evening of the next day, whereas Roman time, the day starts at 12am.

The problem is that this assertion is false. From the Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Jerome Carcopino pp.167-8.

We see that the the Romans divided each day into 24 hours, and they assigned 12 to the daytime  and 12 to the night. These did not run from midnight to midnight as our modern method of timekeeping does, but from sunrise to sunrise. This effectively means that the length of the Roman hour varied according to the season, so that during the summer solstice around June 21st when the period of daylight is considerably longer than the night, the twelve hours assigned to the daytime would each have to be 1 hour and 16 minutes long, while conversely, during the short days of the winter solstice around December 21st, each daylight hour would be only 44 minutes long.

There were only two days during the entire year when the Roman day contained hours of exactly 60 minutes. These dates occurred during the equinoxes, when the length of the day is exactly equal to that of the night; the vernal equinox occurred every year around March 21st, and the autumnal equinox about September 21st.

This fluid method of timekeeping was perfectly natural to your average Roman, who was not governed by the same rigid schedules prevalent in our modern technological society and did not carry either a wristwatch or a FiloFax.

Table of Daylight Hours at the Solstices
Winter Solstice
     Hora from  to
I. prima 7:33  8:17 a.m.
II. secunda 8:17  9:02 a.m.
III. tertia 9:02  9:46 a.m. (3rd hour of the day)
IV. quarta 9:46  10:31 a.m.
V. quinta 10:31  11:15 a.m.
VI. sexta 11:15  12:00 noon
VII. septima 12:00  12:44 p.m.
VIII. octava 12:44  1:29 p.m.
IX. nona 1:29  2:13 p.m.
X. decima 2:13  2:58 p.m.
XI. undecima 2:58  3:42 p.m.
XII. duodecima 3:42  4:27 p.m.
 
Summer Solstice
     Hora from to
I. prima 4:27  5:42 a.m.
II. secunda 5:42  6:58 a.m.
III. tertia 6:58  8:13 a.m. (3rd hour of the day)
IV. quarta 8:13  9:29 a.m.
V. quinta 9:29  10:44 a.m.
VI. sexta 10:44  12:00 noon
VII. septima 12:00  1:15 p.m.
VIII. octava 1:15  2:31 p.m.
IX. nona 2:31  3:46 p.m.
X. decima 3:46  5:02 p.m.
XI. undecima 5:02  6:17 p.m.
XII. duodecima 6:17  7:33 p.m.

Table adapted from Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Jerome Carcopino pp.167-8.

http://www.roman-britain.org/calendar.htm

You can see from the table above that the 3rd hour of the day according to to the ancient romans was  9:02 - 9:46 a.m in the winter and from 6:58 - 8:13 a.m in the summer (That was when Jesus was crucified according to the bible). Your writer wrongly stated that accoring to the roman time Third Hour would be literally the Third Hour, from 12am (3am). That is wrong as you can see for yourself.

All that, if we understand how John wrote in Roman time of day, and Mark in Jewish time of day, many other things make sense, even from the inscription on the cross, Mark says: "The King of the Jews," and John says, "Jesus of Nazareth The King of the Jews" It was written in three languages: Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I believe Mark wrote the Hebrew form, John the Greek form.

The writer does not seem sure of what he is writing as you can see, he is just a very good apologist. Mark according to scholars was written by a Roman because scholars believe that the Gospel of Mark contains mistakes concerning Galilean geography and customs, the writer wasn't a Jew(but a roman) because he wouldn't have missed and made mistakes about basic georgraphy and customs in his narrative if he were truly a Jew. Mark also explains Jewish terminology which suggests that he's writing to a non-Jewish audience. The general theory is that Mark is a Hellenistic gospel, written primarily for an audience of Greek-speaking residents of the Roman Empire. Jewish traditions are explained, clearly for the benefit of non-Jews (e.g., Mark 7:1–4; 14:12; 15:42).

Another thing that makes sense when we see that John wrote in Roman time, and Mark wrote in the Jewish time, is the fact that the Jews were rushing so they could eat the Passover meal and finish before morning or daylight (which Jesus being condemned in the area of 6am, and crucified in the Third Hour (6am-9am) that would have been possible). They are commanded to do so early and be ready to leave by morning . . . remembering the commandments from Exodus. Now, if John were speaking in terms of Jewish times of day, Jesus would be before Pilate, about to be condemned, from 9am-12pm. That would be far too late in the day. It would actually be close to the END of that day, and close to the BEGINNING of the Sabbath day, wherein everyone was to rest, not still deal with the passover work

The problem is that your writer just made things up to keep him in his circle of delusion. He really does not know when the Sabbath begins at all.  According to the Jewish literacy a website that teaches the basics of Judaism, Jewish customs and culture  this is what you will see.

In Jewish time, the day begins with the onset of night (the appearance of the stars) followed by the morning (which technically begins with the appearance of the North Star). According to some Jewish teachers, night and morning begin with sunset and sunrise respectively. For that is how the Torah describes it: "And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."  For this reason, the Sabbath begins on Friday night and ends with the appearance of the stars on Saturday night. The same is true for the major holidays such as Passover, Sukkot, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the fast day of Tisha B'Av, and Hanukkah and Purim.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Jewish_Time.asp

Your writer erroneously claims that the  Sabbath begins by 12pm. So there you have it.

When was Jesus crucified 3rd hour or 6th hour?

Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal?

The day before

Jn.19:14-16
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified

The day after

Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

tonye-t:
bro bindex

i am so happy that the Bible was twisted for people like you not to fanthom so u wont lift up your voice and say we knew it>>>>>>>>>>

The bible was twisted for people like me not to understand it?  you sould have said that the bible was written in such a way that you will have to keep twisting your brains to accomodate the blatant contradictions. Who are those that know the bible? Do you know that because you guys keep twisting your brains to accomodate the bible and make it rational that is why you guys have more than 30,000 sects of Christianity(most of which are on each others neck trying endlessly to cancel each other out )? Keep deluding your selves.

Tayo-D:
@Huxley and co,

sorry I've been MIA on this thread since my last posting.  I've been rather busy.

I thought the best way to r4espond to you guys right now is by way of an example.  What more country can we declare as more fundamentally religious than Iran today? Yet the same country just sent a communication satellite to space, they are building their air planes and long range missiles.  Cases like this merely tells you that religion is not the problem.

I hope to come back and establish some more points.

To say that Iran's fundamentally religious views are not responsible for its building of its long range missles, air planes and nuclear arsernal is to not know what you are talking about. Iran is trying to be a regional force based purely on Religion( the Shia and Sunni divide) Iran will pursue anything that will make it a regional influence because of its extremist religious position. If technology will help it attain that goal then it will actively pursue it. Religion plays a very large part as to why Iran has defied international pressure over its nuclear programme. Its religious view is responsible for its funding of terrorism.

davidylan:
dont expect a response from those demented folks. If they could blame religion for global warming they would.

When will this fool ever get sense? You have uncountable post here on NL blaming Islam( other people's religion) and northern Nigerians Moslems for most of Nigeria' problems, but when people blame Religion(with yours included) as a whole you come around talking like a headless chicken. Its right to blame Islam for all of Nigeria's problem but not Christainity according to davidyalan? do you ever sit down to reason with your brains at all or must you always reason with the pages of the bible? Idiot.

Christians can't even seem to agree with each other, how are they ever going to be able to convince others to join their religion, when they create so much of the dislike themselves? Especially amongst themselves. I read somewhere that the U.S. alone has more than 10,000 Christian denominations.

davidylan:
you're straying too far. You say he doesnt exist yet you want to show me his intellect?  How daft.

You clearly agree with the topic that religion is a danger to intellectualism . . . i wish you to show me just how intellectually advanced you are . . . perhaps those of us still clutching the bible can drop it in favour of following you.

In you haste to sound stupid you can not even understand sarcasm when you see one. Idiot. The day you stop clutching the bible is the day you will die, what other book will keeps you flying in your world of delusion and in your permanent us vs them mode? the day you stop clutching on your bible is the day that you die because I don't think you can live in a world where some imaginary figure does not consider you special above all the others. Your life is so miserable that you need to be reminded that the us vs them war will never end till your imaginary God comes and takes you to heaven. I don't think you can live in a world where some imaginary being does not keep inflating your ego by encouraging you be in the permanent we vs them mode. Try doing without that book of fables and lets see how long you will last in the world without your imaginary being inflating your ego. idiot.

davidylan:
yet for the last 1 yr you've been bleating about this non-existent God?
you seem more troubled than you claim he is at the moment.

You have been bleating about the non existing Allah for years on nairaland haven't you? I guess that makes the two of us troubled souls we are?

davidylan:
Again more vicious vituperations from the eggheads who consider themselves more intellectual because they dont believe in a God they wont leave alone anyway.

Yes tell you God to come and strike us dead for not leaving him alone. I thought that is what he is very Good at? striking people to death for looking at him when he was hiding like a chicken in a wooden ark? I dont see you leaving The Allah that you don't believe exist alone. stupid fool.

Copying and pasting simply makes you out to be a lazy individual . . . when you start by clearly enunciating your opinions rather than piggy backing on the written words of others then i can seriously consider debating you.

You said that America was founded by Christians based on their strong Christian convictions, and I pasted some of their quotes to show you how truly "Christian" they were. By the way when did Catholics become very strong Christians? when you want to use them to deluded your self? else they are all going to hell right? confused fool.

**osisi:
the guy is a troubled soul
rejected even by allah and his jinns
The only thing left to do is for him  to audition to serve kolanuts at Okija
that's if the oracles would consider him a worthy sacrifice

At least I am not as troubled as the God your worship who used to be so troubled that the only things that could ease his tension were human and animal blood.

davidylan:
Bindex show us this intellect and it sufficeth us.

I will rather show you the intellect of your all knowing deity that needs lamps to look for people who disobey him at night.

davidylan:
70 yrs ago when Europe was at the height of its powers . . . china was nothing but swamp, rice paddies and dirt poor people . . . Japan was in rubbles. At that time the Europeans were still very religious.

It seems many of you who love to argue have your history only as far as 5yrs ago.

When did Catholics become very religious Christians? When you want to use them to prove some convoluted points? else they are all lost, in darkness and will all burn in hell right? stupid clown.

davidylan:
Where did you get that "fact" from? thin air? when did they sit in a conference and sign a communique indicating such bogus rubbish? Where they not reading the bible and inserting "In God we trust" when they were building trains, Nimitz-class aircraft carriers, atomic bombs and generating 24hrs electricity while you and ur infidel forefathers were busy playing ayo under the moonlight?

While America held unto her strong christian foundation . . . she almost singlehandedly rescued Europe from Germany during world war II. Start discussing from positions of facts then maybe we can take the rest of your hot air serious.

There was no launch of sharia in 1920 . . . were we any more industrialized? Some of you talk with no sense of intelligence at all.

What is America's strong Christian foundation Slavery? Who were the American Founders that were Christians? George Washington?

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy and the Church."
— George Washington, 1st U.S. President

Thomas Jefferson?

"Religions are all alike — founded upon fables and mythologies."
— Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Dr. Woods

Benjamin Franklin?

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible.  Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
— Benjamin Franklin, Toward The Mystery

"Scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself."
— Benjamin Franklin, (Franklin's Autobiography, 1817–18)

John Adams?

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.  Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
— John Adams

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

So who are the Americans That founded American on their strong Christian foundation? When did deist become strong Christians? Stupid deluded fool.

Go and ask your infidel grand mother why she was prostituting around instead of using her brains to change her environs when the whites were busy building planes and atomic bombs, I heard your infidel grandfather was busy stealing and lying to the people in your village.

davidylan:
200 yrs ago we had no christianity . . . did we have any better roads? 1000 yrs ago the more highly religious Romans already had stone-cobbled roads . . . till tomorrow we are yet to match such engineering feats.

Are you asking me for answers to that? why don't you ask your infidel grand father that was busy robbing and lying why he did'nt use his brain to develop machines that will help him build roads instead of disturbing your whole village with stealing.

300 yrs ago we had no religious texts to read . . . did we have any textbooks? At that time the more highly religious Europe were busy discovering the chemical elements we now gloat about today.

You can pose that question to your criminal infidel grandfather. By the way who were those discovering the chemicals? Paul, pater, Matthew, Luke? or scientist that were imprisoned for daring to show that the bible was wrong about some things?

You must have invented this claim because it isnt true anywhere . . . the same religious Europeans were the ones who brought us drugs for malaria your write up was disgracefully porous and one more evidence that you atheists are no more intelligent than an ant.

Learn to read and understand things before stupidly spewing rubbish. I meant why should Nigerians and Africans spend time researching about drugs when the have miracle healers everywhere performing miracles, but in you rush to sound stupid you assumed I was talking about white people. Remember that your own bible says that demons and evil spirits cause blindness and diseases. My ant brain is better than that of your father and thieving grandfather combined.

davidylan:
the problem is i am yet to see an serious intellectual competence with any of you who deny the existence of God. You people are simply vacuous noise makers. Show me your intellect and lets see whether its any better than those of us who read a bible.

bla bla bla bla bla. Mr intellect  . We do not believe in a God that used to hide himself like a chicken in a man made wooden ark.(or one that used to hide in the Ka'aba) and strikes any body that dares to look at him inside. we do not believe that humans were created from sand or that a goat can give birth to goats with stripes and patches by simply peeling off branches of trees. by the way we do not believe that you can associate kindness to a deity that almost tried to kill his best friend Moses because of circumcision. We also do not believe in a deity that says he is everywhere and sees all things that says still needs lamps to look for people that disobey him, ooh despite the all knowing character that is attributed to him he still needed his "chosen people" to mark their doors with the blood of animals so that he can differentiate it from the doors of his enemies when he sent his angels to kill off all the first born of the enemies of his people. What an intellectual deity and an intellectual follower we have here.

davidylan:
100 yrs ago they were more religious than we were . . . YET they were already laying the foundations for the societies they have today. To pretend that technology advanced in a religious vacuum is to decieve urself.

Atomic bombs were not built today, aircraft design started in 1914, a time when women werent allowed to vote for religious reasons, when Abraham Lincoln was reading his bible in the white house, European and American doctors were already laying the foundations for modern medicine and tons of chemical elements had been discovere

Europeans realized that religious beliefs were taking them no where that is why they abandoned it and moved forward, they would have never been where they are today if they had held unto their once extremist religious beliefs.

Africa is what it is today and it has nothing to do with religion. The asians arent as religious as the Europeans . . . why are they lagging behind technologically?

To say that Africa as it is today has nothing to do with religion is a complete lie(we Africans are very good in lying to our selves). about 1.5 million people gathered in kano when sharia was launched. yet nobody can stand up and march to the very corrupt government houses in northern Nigeria because Islam teaches that leaders are ordained by God. Christians cause a lot of waste in man hours by organising crusades and blocking major high ways in Nigeria for people that are travelling on business, nobody can say anything because the leaders and followers believe all people that are doing the work of God and winning souls should not be challenged.

Students spend more time reading their various religious text than reading their text books. Any finding that seems to contradict what is written in religious text is abandoned. claims of miracles by Men of God is inhibiting medical research. Why waste time and money on research of new drugs and better medical equipment when you can pray to the deity you believe in for healing. Why waste time thinking about what will happen in 50 years time when the kingdom of Allah and Jesus are already at hand? Why waste time fighting for your rights when this world is just a temporary place(Which is not our home) anyway. We all have better homes in Aljanh(with lost of virgins and rivers of wine) and in Heaven(built with diamonds and gold) where we will worship Jehovah for eternity. Why waste time dealing with your neighbour that doesn't believe in your religion when he is condemned already?

To say that Africa(Nigeria) is not dying because of our religious is to not know what you are talking about. Europeans more religious than Asians?

Kai, what is this?

More quotes from the American "Christian " founders

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history.  Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity.  It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses, "
— John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America; from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, p. 258

"Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion."
— John Adams

"The United States of America governments have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature.  It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."
— John Adams


America was never founded by Christians, it was founded by people that believed in a God, Most of them were deist.


http://godvsthebible.com/chapter11.htm

If the United States was founded as a Christian nation on Christian principles, why did the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights ever get passed? It makes four of the ten commandments unconstitutional. This is really odd isn't it? Biblical literacy was much higher in those days than it is today. (Even though overall literacy was much lower, people definitely knew their Bibles. In many 18th Century homes, the Bible was the only book.) So the men who wrote the Bill of Rights certainly knew what they were doing when they set down the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. I don't think the United States was founded as a Christian nation. I think most of the founding fathers were veiled atheists. Doesn't Dawkins talk about this in The God Delusion? Abraham Lincoln isn't some one you would refer to as a Christian, Thomas Jefferson? The founders of the United States were a group of enlightenment thinkers who specifically set up a secular constitution to run a secular country.

Here are some of the words of American "Christian" founding fathers

"Religions are all alike — founded upon fables and mythologies."
— Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse(book of revelation), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
— Thomas Jefferson

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it; and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right,from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine.  In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds.  It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams (January 24, 1814)

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."
— George Washington, 1st U.S. President

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
— Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible.  Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
— Benjamin Franklin, Toward The Mystery


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."
— Benjamin Franklin

Image123:
Mr bindex,you need to be open and forget your prejudice to understand the Word of God.In my first reply to thids thread,I told you of 2 out of many other possibilities of how the gospel writers knew what they wrote,but you're obviously not interested in 'How did they know'.The spirit of the antichrist seems to be in charge of you.God will deliver you in Jesus' name

OK lets assume that the bibleGod allowed gave them the revelation, was he the one that also gave them contradictory revelations in the gospels? like the contradictory account we have of when Jesus was crucified which remains one of the biggest events in the whole bible.

Example when was Jesus crucified.

9:00 a.m.  -- “It was the third hour when they crucified him.” mark (15:25)

After 12:00 p.m.  -- Jesus was not crucified until after the sixth hour!    john(19:14-15)

It seems Jesus is not good when it comes to telling people what really happened to him. Is this the same God that revealed himself to the bible writers that told them to write this? They can not even tell the exact time Jesus was killed, Jesus'Crucifixion is one of the biggest events in the whole of the bible but they couldn't manage to get it right.

The Spirit of anti-Christ is defiantly upon me and I like it.

gadogado:
@huxley

you raise some very interestingly acute points. But i want to remind you that, since we all know science,technology and intellectualism is not an exclusive reserve of western europe nor  was it invented there,then you should know that other civilizations that were devout in their spirituality (religion) also made scientific,technological and intellectual break throughs. I want to disprove you idea that religion (beleif in a higher power,since religion has this beleif as it fundamental pillar) has anything to do with intellectual under-development. Case in point, look at the rise of the arabian civilization that counquered europe all the way to spain. these conquests were simply a sign of super-powerdom meaning at the height of this power,arabs were the foremost in intellectual research, scientific innovation and so on but at the same time remained devoutly muslim in conduct and practise. islam did not keep them in the dark,as a matter of fact,islam heavily discouraged superstition. the mathimatical genre of algebra (al-jabra) was invented and developed by an arab named al-jabra. Same applies to the ottoman empire who were devout muslims yet thrived in education,military innovation and scientific advancements.

In other words, what im saying is you have to separate superstition from religion, specifically those religions that advocate moral purity. Superstition today is disturbingly entrenched in the psyche of the typical african. Superstition in my humble opinion is sort of a cultural cancer that prevents any culture from thriving. Africans much like the europeans of the dark ages managed to merge religious doctrines and teachings with superstitious and unintellectual beliefs but that superstition was not born from religion,prior to the introduction of christianity to africa,africans were a very superstitious people and it was so strong that religion couldnt fully dampen it. to an extent i feel superstition is human nature and to an extent i feel its a tool of the devil. look at the tribes that had no monothestic religion anywhere in the world, you'll find that their cultures were rife with all forms and manner of superstitious belief.

So superstition is the main culprit here not religion. the belief in one God can only help elevate a people or a culture. Africa is in the dark ages largely due to the bond african cultures have formed with superstition which is culturally retrogressive bcoz it makes people preoccupied with bogus and false realities such that they cannot collectively be productive or develop. Nollywood movies being a typical example of what african cultures are wired in.

To say that religious belief does not greatly encourage superstitious belief is to not know what you are talking about. Religion and superstition can NEVER be separated because they are one and the same.